Screen Time: Part 2 - The Downsides For Neurodivergent Kids | Hannah Woods

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 57 of Neuroshambles. As always, it's an absolute pleasure to have the benefit of your ears on this conversation. So, thank you once again for joining me. This episode is part two of a wide ranging conversation about this particular topic of the week. So me and my guests are going to be picking up from where we left off last time. We're also going to be looking at some Neurodiversity Champions, some tiny epic wins and some what the flip moments. So Grab yourself a cup of tea or a coffee or maybe a stiff drink, and let's get going.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

If you've already listened to the previous episode, which is part one of this particular topic, you will already know about our guests' setup. But if you haven't heard that one yet, firstly, what are you thinking? Who launches themselves into part two before they've listened to part one? Absolute madness. So get onto that one first and then come back to me. However, if you have heard part one, but you've completely forgotten everything you heard due to the unique memory fog brought on by parenting Neurodivergent Kids. Just, Hannah, give us a quick recap into the Neurodivergent setup in your household, please.

Hannah

Yes, thanks, Mark. So in our household, we have Henry, my nine-year-old. He has autism and ADHD with a very strong demand avoidant profile. We have his little sister, Thea, who's six. Who is currently presenting as neurotypical Currently. But you never know, as you all know. And then we have my husband Dave, who has recently, within the last six months. Being diagnosed with ADHD and autism, much later diagnosis. And then myself, again, I think the way I described it last episode was neurototypical until proven.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. You're a different until proven otherwise, I think was the phrasing,  which I loved. Okay, thanks for reintroducing me to your setup, Hannah. Let's crack on with part two of this particular topic.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So this week's episode is the second part of a two-part deep dive into the thorny issue of screen time. Now in the last episode we focused entirely on the benefits of screen time for our neurodivergent kids and the undoubted positives that it provides to us as parents as well, if we're being honest with ourselves. But I think it's also really important to discuss the flip side of that coin so we can balance it out again because It's not all positive, is it, Hannah?

Hannah

Definitely not.

Mark

I think it's fair to say it can be a double-edged sword.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Because as well as the benefits, screen time opens up a number of legitimate concerns for us parents. And it's I think it's trickier to discuss those elements of it. It's easy to say how empowering it can be to our kids, and we've had a whole episode about that. But scratching the surface of the slightly darker side of things is not as easy, is it?

Hannah

Definitely not. Lots to talk about, I'm sure.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. So let's brace ourselves for this and get stuck in. So one of the major worries for me, and I'm sure for many other New Irish Amblers out there, is this thought that screen time for our kids is addictive. And in a way, it makes perfect sense, right? Because we looked at the a whole episode full of the positives and what it provides to them. So it makes sense they're drawn to it. I get that because it's fun, right? Screen time is fun. I think the appeal of screen time is no less enticing than it is to neurotypical kids. It's something that they're all drawn to. And if I'm honest, I find screen time incredibly addictive. Like, I love it. I will spend hours if I get I mean, I don't get hours, but I will spend spare time doom scrolling at the end of the day when the kids are in bed, because I think it it feels comforting to sort of switch your brain off a bit. I'm not doing anything, but I am kind of doing something, but I'm not doing anything. I'm just scrolling through Absolute shit on TikTok. I get into just like weird little rabbit holes of watching people making hats. On TikTok. I don't know why that is now in my algorithm. I'm like, I like this guy's craftsmanship for some reason. But, you know, it's mind-numbing, but it is addictive, right?

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

It is addictive. Have you got a guilty pleasure in your doom scrolling?

Hannah

Well, my doom scrolling will seem to be like random late-night purchases of things that I definitely don't need to do at eleven o'clock because you have Instagram feedback. Is selling you the latest gadget.

Mark

Well, I can recommend a hat maker if you're interested.

Hannah

But I find that often after I've put the kids to bed, it's such a sort of epic ordeal that it's like the one thing that enables me to completely kind of numb. my mind and that's how I end up doing it. It's like a mental sort of right, now I can now I can do this and I can sit down.

Mark

Yeah, and it so it is it is a comfort, but I wouldn't call myself addicted to it. And that's the thing I'm concerned about with my kids in particular, that the more screen time they have, the more they might need it. Because they're they have ADHD. And ADHD brains are particularly susceptible to the addictive effects of screen time. I think that's fair to say because research does suggest That their brains are wired differently to neurotypical kids in that they don't use dopamine as efficiently. I think that's the way of putting it. So, not only do they produce less dopamine than the neurotypical brain, but also it's flushed out of the system more quickly. So, there's this constant need to top it up. So, not only do they have a lower base level of dopamine. they also need to keep topping it up more because it dissipates more quickly. That's my layman's understanding of it, but it seems to make sense. If you ever observe your ADHD child quickly get bored of the thing they're doing. within seconds with Otto in particular, right? And then move on to another task. That's that in effect. Otto is particularly sensitive To this, so it was his birthday the other day, and on our kids' birthday, we basically let them set the tone for the whole day. So, we wanted to order a takeaway and we all watched TV, and he was going to choose what we're watching on TV. So I was like, okay, this would be interesting. Sweet Jesus. It was a whirlwind. It was a whirlwind. He would just like, he'd start watching a thing and go, nope, watch something else. I was like, dude, I was watching that. Like, no, I want to watch something else. seconds, mere seconds into a programme and he'd move on to something else. It was a a really interesting window into his world of how he did it. Do is that a thing that Henry has?

Hannah

Absolutely. And we find like the nature of things like YouTube shorts particularly, like it's almost kind of entirely kind of plugged into exactly what his brain he perceives he needs and navigating the use of that as a platform is really, really difficult. I'm trying to explain to him why we don't necessarily need to keep on feeding you these thirty second videos of random things.

Mark

God help him if he finds the hat making guy on TikTok

Hannah

Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, uh for all the benefits that we spoke about in the last episode, screens and screen time and addiction is like the number one flash point in our house. So although they do amazing things the kind of getting it off or doing other things is often that transition is really, really tricky because of the addictive nature.

Mark

And if you look at it in the context of ADHD, it makes more sense as well because he it's it's a craving for this dopamine. And it's not as simple, I think, as just saying that they get bored of Quickly doing things, and they need another dopamine here because, additionally, that very same brain is also capable of intense hyper-focus for hours on the same thing. So it's a really interesting sort of way of consuming, I think. When it finds that source of dopamine, it just locks in. And then, as you're saying, with Henry and YouTube Shorts, it's then like, can be more, can be more, can be more, can be more.

Hannah

Yeah, and it's how to teach and whether you can teach any kind of self regulation of that. So we won't always be around until they lock their tablets or set limits on it. So how do they navigate this kind of wild west of the you know, i at the time where they've got more access. That that I think is something that that gives me quite a lot of walking that line between wanting to teach them the skills to be able to regulate their own use.

Mark

Yes.

Hannah

And putting more strict rules in through it becomes this kind of forbidden fruit that is ever more enticing.

Mark

With Otto, it's so too soon to really be having those conversations, I think. With Jay, I think I could probably have it more reasonably, so I think that comes with time. But the more open that we are about it and it sounds like you do that quite a lot with Henry is sort of talk about screen time and how much you think is reasonable. So you are having those conversations Whether they have an impact on his own ability to regulate it is a different thing, but the fact you're having those conversations, I think, is a really positive thing.

Hannah

Yeah, and I think that, you know, it's really difficult because we're in a household where Henry needs screens and he uses them a different way to his sister. But his sister then perceives it as unfair that we have sort of two sets of screen rules, one for her and one for him. And that's because for Henry, it is part of our regulation strategies. And let's face it. you need a large suitcase of regulation strategies to use it at different types. And they're not always all available to you if you're in a public place. But then that I find then trying to explain the point about whether it's fair that Henry gets more screen time, for example, and how he uses it. is also a really difficult one to navigate. Younger child, that perception of injustice, their life is already fairly impacted by having a sibling that's got additional needs and then the perception that you're not treating them fairly, that that is something also that's

Mark

That's really, really difficult to navigate. Yeah, that's one that I don't have to navigate, fortunately, because it is yeah, it is it's a difficult thing. I have been worried about the fact that maybe Otto in particular is is becoming slightly addicted to it. And I do think sometimes maybe I'm feeding The addiction rather than it just being an appealing glimmer throughout the day, right? That's how I imagine it's like, oh, just do a little thing, you know, give yourself, give your brain a little bit Joy, but maybe I'm you know giving crack to a smackhead, you know, just have another little bit, and then he's fiending for it more. I like, I worry that that is what I'm doing. And when does that craving for screen time become a more serious addiction rather than it just being that regulation strategy. Do you worry about that sometimes?

Hannah

I think it's a really, really hard line to walk, isn't it? Because on so many levels The things that most kids are good at, our kids aren't good at it. And so the reason why I see that there's a dopamine hit for Henry is He's very good at whatever games he plays, he's very skillful, etc. So he feels a sense of mastery. And a sense of mastery is so often lost. In any other environment, so on the one level, I'm keen to let him be in the sense of like I can do this and I'm good at it, and my friends think I'm good at it, and that's great. But I definitely feel that where does this end? Whilst it's okay now because it's quite heavily regulated because he's nine and we have parental krills and all this sort of thing. what happens when that regulation is lifted and you're in the world? And are you what could you be drawn to? Where does that go? And trying to think ahead about conversations about when to stop and why is yes, it it's it is a a constant worry, you know. And for all the benefits we've talked about, you do sometimes worry what risks am I exposing them to? And is this very different way of parenting going to come back and bite me in the bum in a pretty major way because they're completely addicted to something in a couple of years' time.

Mark

So I did a bit of reading up on this because I was interested in where the line between heavy use and addiction comes in. for screen time. And it is it's a difficult one to define for neurodivergent kids, as many things are to do with screen time. But it's not to do with the number of hours on a screen that is the issue. It's to do with how they cope with it. So the guidance is that if they're still sleeping and eating and engaging with others and learning and maintaining relationships, then it's more likely that it's just a strong preference of theirs. It's a regulation tool that we envisage it being. It's a socialization tool, all of those benefits that we talked about, rather than a full blown addiction. Obviously, if those things are starting to deteriorate, if they're not able to sleep properly, if they're not eating properly, because they need to be on it, if they're not engaging with people. And again, that's where that caveat comes in, that with neurodivergent kids not engaging with people is not the be all and end all of stuff. It depends, you know, like I say, Jay, when he was in burnout. didn't want to engage with people, and that was just what he needed at the time. That wasn't a sign of addiction, it was just a sign of burnout. And also, they don't Get the same benefit from engaging with people that, you know, for example, I have. I am galvanized by it, as I've discussed before, whereas Jay was very often appalled by it.

Hannah

We really have that in my house. It's always mum mummy's gonna go out and have all this socializing and Dave and Henry would rather just Stay at home. And actually, on the screen time addiction, actually, I think I mentioned this in the last episode: some of the rules we set around screen times are as much for my husband as they are. for our children because it's about trying to kind of help this regulation and and interestingly we have found with Henry you know lucky because at the moment you can't always have the conversation about you know when you're trying to kind of wrestle a doublet of them. But in hindsight, Henry will say, Mum, if I play Roblox late and then I try to go to bed, I keep on thinking about the game and I can't. So in time he has also accepted that actually there has to be at least an hour and a half screens down. So we have found ways around it. That doesn't mean it's been beautiful, otherwise it's certainly not some oh, let's sit down and talk about it. But as he's matured, we've been able to be like, mm, you see that thing you did then? Like maybe that maybe we could do it differently. And so if you can find that space there are ways to talk about it, but it's a risk, isn't it? 'Cause you you're not quite sure how that's going to work out for you and what the consequence of that kind of addiction might be. And it will change all the time at different ages and Depending on how their mental state is. And so you can never guarantee that rational conversation is going to guide Their use and their behaviour of it, because they're always going to be more hardwired to want more and more and more.

Mark

Yes, and I think the key is then not just going cold turkey, right? We know how that goes, right? Right, no more screens for the whole day or whatever it is. You know, so if you're trying to get them away from screen time, what I've found is that you can't just remove the dopamine hit. You need to entice them away from it with another potential dopamine hit, you know, so they're not just going cold turkey. That's why when I say right, we're going swimming, big dopamine hit for my kids. So they are like off their tablets or whatever they're doing and they've got their shoes on and they're in the car before I am Which is incredible, but because they love it, like they don't feel like they're losing out. They're just swapping one dopamine hit for another dopamine hit, which is great. And with Otto, there are lots of non-screen based things that I can turn to with him. So, you know, like we'd go for a kickabout in the garden or we can play a board game or basically anything that involves me being directly with him and giving him my undivided attention. Which is that's his dopamine here. Which, you know, it's not always possible, is it? But I know that that's a usual strategy. So, you know, the fact that he can do that and he wants to do that is my indication at the moment that it's not addicted. But I'm also aware that those alternatives are not always available to other parents, other neuroshamblers, whose kids don't find that dopamine hit from elsewhere. Like Otto's easy. There's a bunch of things. Bit harder with Jay, to be honest, because he's poured scorn on a lot of things I suggest. Oh, and I'm sure that other neuroshamblers out there have kids who aren't really interested in anything else.

Hannah

And I wonder if it changes as they get older, we're still in this kind of sweet spot where there are other things. So you know, for example, Through nightmare at mornings in our household. They've gone from, we had a great rhythm and routine, and we were thinking it was fine, and then it's Kind of all fallen apart, and it's all very, very stressful trying to get everyone to leave the house, go to school, etc. And you know, screens do feature in that. So if After Henry's had his kind of core time, if he does all his jobs on his list, he can get extra time. So, however early he's finished, he can get it until sort of 8:30 when we need to leave. And that that's been great, but y what I was struck by is w the sort of the punitive and using screen time as a threat is really unhelpful. I was talking about this actually to Sarah Raddiff who I mentioned last week in the episode was like, you know, how do I c how do I help get Henry to do the things that I need him to do so we're all not so dysregulated before eight forty five every morning of the week, which is just exhausting. And she was saying to me, look, punitive punishments don't work, reward works. So yes, screen is good, but like sh we've actually started using Mario sticker books. And so if we have a good morning, Henry gets like a little set of Mario stickers to

Mark

Okay.

Hannah

Now, that won't work for like a 14-year-old. Like, this is a sweet spot. I've got a nine-year-old, a fairly immature nine-year-old at the moment, and in time, I'm not going to be able to use those. Things, but what I wonder about is at the moment, you know, they can be stickers or I don't know, some other small bits, but how as they age what's the other currency that you can use when stickers kind of don't become useful anymore?

Mark

Well this is the thing that I sort of have spoken about a number of times on neuroshambles, is that they they do evolve. You know, that that you I think you'll probably find that when he's 14, he just will get it. You know, I'm speaking optimistically on your behalf. Here, Hannah, but I'm just watching Jay at the moment and the way that Jay is sort of, you know, he's become a teenager and he's much more considered in things. Like he's still he's still very much Jay. I mean, there's no mistaking that. But but he is able to kind of talk more reasonably about things and how he's feeling and and be open to strategies now. So I think, again, you know, it was a conversation I had with Lisa Galley of that we tend to Think of our kids in the same, you know, the same brains in a bigger body, but they're not. Their brain develops as well. And I think, you know, that will eventually, catch up, and you won't need to keep packing bags of Mario stickers. Let's hope not, anyway.

Hannah

And when you're in the trenches, it's very hard to consider that there might be a change, isn't there? Because it just feels all so difficult right now, it's like just getting the embrace for neurodivergent kids.

Mark

I think that this addictive element of it is more keenly felt. Games and video channels are designed specifically to keep our kids hooked. Like Netflix, you look at Netflix. When an episode finishes, you've got to count down until the next one starts. It's like, and for annual vertic kids, if you've started, that's it. Now I'm locked in, dad. You know, it's like the panic of like, oh shit, I've got to find I've got to turn it off before it's counting you down. And it doesn't sometimes it actually just starts before the countdown ends.

Hannah

I don't. I'm fair. If you set a timer, that's what I do. So it's like, okay, there's eight minutes left of this episode. I'm cool with that. I'm not going to cut it halfway through, but at the eight minutes, so I'll put a timer on my watch. 30 seconds before, and sometimes it's already rolling. Yeah, yeah, you missed it. God damn you!

Mark

I've missed that stream.

Hannah

Yeah, it's another like 20 minutes.

Mark

It's like missing a bus, isn't it? And that's just sort of Netflix and that side of things. But like video games have loads of things, little kind of tricks to keep that dopamine hit coming. So loot chests on different games. You know, if you've been away for a day, you come back tomorrow and you get a new loot chest to open straight away and you have like events in Roblox. There's this this event where everyone goes crazy and loot starts coming out of the ceiling or what whatever it is.

Hannah

Update so you are you we had to Schedule at one point our family weekend around the grower garden.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah

So I can't. I'm sorry, I can't do that. Like this grow a garden, and I'm like Surely not.

Mark

No, Otto is the same. Where we'll be out. He's like, Are we going to be back by three? I was like, I mean, I I don't know, to be honest. You're the one that faffs the most. So if we're not, it's probably your fault. But um but he gets like it's r because it's This huge dopamine hit. When you get back to your game and there's a chest waiting for you, and you open up, and there's gems, fucking gems, and new skins, and new, you know, whatever it is. It's really addictive to them and and by design, you know, that they want you to keep coming back, which is fine uh unless that then costs you money, which is another potential issue.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

For whatever reason, I've sort of sidestepped that Little bit. I don't know how that's happened in my house. I think because Jay is deeply cynical of everything. I think at some point I was like, oh, they're just trying to get money out of you. And he's like, oh, right, I'm on to them. Right. So he won't even entertain that. And uh and Otto just sort of just adopts that by osmosis. Like he wants us to spend stuff, but I can say no to Otto and that's okay. Whereas I probably wouldn't be able to say no to Jay in the same way without those repercussions, PDA and all that, right? But Jay, it feels like he's not going to be tricked into spending money on something that he could do without spending money. So we sidestepped that a little bit and I feel very surprised.

Hannah

So we haven't. That's been really difficult. So you know, not only have we relented before we thought we might do on like access to Roblox, but then the Robux And sometimes you get birthday cards which are loaded with Robux that you can buy. So once you spend, Like the additive nature of that comes in and the hassling, et cetera.

Mark

Yeah, so just for Neuroshambles listeners who aren't aware of Roblox and Robux. Roblox is an online gaming platform with lots and lots of diff different games, and you kind of your kids will join and they'll have an avatar and they will be able to play with that. in lots of different games. And Robux basically allows you to spend it on, you know, different in game perks, very often the ability to wear a different costume. A chicken costume might cost 500 Robux or whatever it is. I don't know the the exchange rate of Robux to GBP but real money then gives you in game money, which then they just fritter away because what, you know, there's so many opportunities to do that, right?

Hannah

Yeah, and somebody described robots as like a shopping mall. So basically it's just loads of different games. Getting you to spend money. So, you have that we've really had to be careful. And it has like we've had a lot of flashpoints. Like, if I was to talk about the negative flashpoints about wanting more. money. So like more time. Yeah, we've had to not go that, but more money to spend. And that has been a really, really difficult thing. When Henry has earned his own money, so like the the money he earned from his selling his 3D Fridget toys, like we had this long conversation about do we let him spend all that money on it, like, because he earned that money, right?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah

What do we do? And actually, we allowed him to spend fifty percent on it, which was why he didn't spend all of it. It was a lot of money, more than I would be comfortable with. And interestingly, most recently, he's just come off robots. Don't want to play that anymore. It's like, why not? You used to be obsessed with it. No, I'm done with it.

Mark

Completely, mum.

Hannah

He's like, but all that money I spent on Robux. Wasn't that stupid, mum? I was like. Yeah, kind of was. But like the teachable moment in the time. So I I'd say if I was to talk about flashpoints and challenges that was a very unpleasant period of time where row books were the hyper focus. Not so much anymore. We've perhaps maturity sort of realize that they're a bit frivolous. And I think his friends have also said to him, Well, Henry, what a waste of money. You could have basically bought like your gaming chair for that. So yeah, it is really difficult because they just want more and more and more.

Mark

And it's because of the the way that these games are geared to get kids spending money. And also the addictive nature of the games themselves.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

You know, regardless of the monetary spend, just to keep getting you to come back. And as you sort of alluded to, it's really difficult to try and because you're not just fighting against their desire to be regulated You're fighting against a legitimate potential addiction to something that is designed that way. Which is is really it's a really tricky thing to navigate.

Hannah

I'm sure you've we've done that sort of thing about trying to explain to Henry that like this You know, games are meant that they're addictive, they're trying to make money, and like your bone is more susceptible to that, you know, something to watch for. But, you know, the challenge is, isn't it, that you know, in a moment of negotiations on this and sort of nearing a meltdown. It's not a teachable moment, right?

Mark

No, no, when yeah, you cannot, you can't introduce logic to overwhelm.

Hannah

No, so you know, and so you that's when you want to be having it, and that's what your brain is saying to you. This is just a ridiculous thing. Why am I having to deal with this? but it's not the moment. And so sometimes we've had to go with okay, you can have like, I don't know, two quids and that's it, right? We've had to really re revisit it again when everyone's been a bit more regulated, including us. About this sort of stuff and why it matters. But it is a minefield. Some people I know have a very, very like you're never going to buy anything before you even go on the game. Like, that's just the baseline to access it. Often people are like to me, you know, should I give my child robots? And I'm like, that is your choice, your family, your rules. Like, we play it. It's not as bad as I don't find it is as bad as they have sold. But I've held many horror stories. Our personal experience isn't that. But if you're going to go down there, I'd put a ban on Robux from the day dot, and then it's not a conversation you have to navigate as a hypothetical. three thousand times.

Mark

Yeah, especially if they start bringing in their own money. That that becomes this whole other thing, right? Yeah. Because why can't they spend it on the thing they want to spend it on?

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Especially if they're PDA, right? And they want this autonomy. It's like I have autonomously become rich through legitimate means, right? So I also then want to autonomously fritter it away on faff, basically. Yeah, it's a difficult it's a difficult conversation to have. I think the biggest concern that parents have around screen time now, which we've touched on a little bit earlier, is around safeguarding and making sure that our kids are safe online. It's certainly the one that I'm the most concerned about because I've got three kids, right? And they're all on different devices. It's not possible for me to know everything that all of them are doing all of the time. It's not possible because, you know, I'm doing other stuff and they are, you know, because I'm outnumbered, right? And I have concerns that. they will see inappropriate content on YouTube or on TV, or maybe they'll have an unpleasant interaction on Roblox or something like that. it is always at the back of my mind that that that could be going on.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

That's a difficult thing, isn't it? Because I think, you know, there are some legitimately inappropriate and harmful things that they can end up watching on YouTube in particular, I think. And the pace of technology is so rapid And the different devices that they have available each have different safeguarding features. And you can have safeguarding features on the device itself. You can have safeguarding features on the game and in the app, and there are so many different sort of settings to do. It's like a full time job to keep on top of it, I think.

Hannah

Yeah, one hundred percent. My husband works in cybersecurity, so I outsource all of that to him. But he finds it really stress even as a an IT Professional finds it really stressful, you know, ensuring things were up to date, getting across platforms, you know, all the features. And it's such a minefield, isn't it? You know, and I'm not sure we can protect them from saying something inappropriate is the reality. you know, we can do our best, can't we? But what you really want them to do is how do you have the conversations about what those So see, so Henry asked us to remove the um language content restriction from Spotify.

Mark

Right, okay.

Hannah

Because you can't play lots of songs.

Mark

Yeah, hip hop is completely out if you can't.

Hannah

Yeah. Exactly. And once in school we're renting from meeting, they said that Henry had been listening to something with inappropriate words. And so, and it was like In an educational psychologist visit, so it's like, Oh god, this is not the right time to tell me this. I'm a responsible parent, I promise you. Um, but he said to us today at the end of his um there was swearing in the songs. Did you know Alexa's swearing? And we're like, yeah, you you asked us to take the content filter off so you could listen to like Eminem is what you were looking to. you know, I I explained to my friends that, you know, I this was obviously the word they weren't allowed to say. So it's really interesting that he Came to us to tell us that was a problem. We're like, you asked me to do that all, you know. So, but there is lots of content, and I don't know if I will be able to always do it. it is a concern and we have some rules like he's only allowed to kind of watch a bit of adults YouTube shorts which he loves, which are like the most highest profile. Like risks, aren't they, for feeding you?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because then the algorithm goes, oh, dude, they really love this, and then they keep feeding the the same thing, so it's a reinforcement.

Hannah

Exactly. He can only do that like in earshot of one of us, so we can keep an eye about what's coming up on his feed. Otherwise that's locked. He's not allowed that unsupervised 'cause and and he's only allowed it for ten minutes 'cause he could just literally sit there all day kind of getting that dope at me a bit. I don't know how long that will last us. I mean, I don't know how you find, but we kind of make these rules and then we have to revisit them because things change so quickly.

Mark

I mean, I think, you know, as you say, there's no way that we're going to completely protect them. From seeing something that is undesirable, let's put it that way. However, that is, you know, and where your level of undesirable is, you know, is malleable depending on the child and depending on the parents as well, I guess, and the family situation. I'm slightly heartened to hear that your husband is in cybersecurity and he finds it a nightmare. Because I work in IT or I've been, you know, I've been working, I've worked in IT for many years, so I know my way around that kind of thing. And it's a it is a flipping nightmare. I've enabled screen time on so that's sort of you know, screen time is making sure that they can only watch various apps or even open their iPad or whatever it is between certain hours. So there's that. But then you've also then got to look at the parental controls of saying this child is eleven. and therefore, they're only allowed to watch content that is suitable for eleven year olds. That's on a device level. So obviously everything that my kids see is age restricted and they also have to get approval for from me for anything they download. So they can't download anything. They can't pay for anything without me. So you know, these devices and these platforms do have pretty good safeguards. Around that. But I'm not naive enough to think that nothing untoward can get through those parental controls. I had to do a review of Jay's online security. And it was uh it was a minefield. Because he's got multiple devices, right? Um, so he's got He's got an iPad. He's got an iPhone so he can text us when he's on his way to and from school. He's got a laptop. He also uses Google for YouTube and for searching. Every single one of these has a whole set of parental settings. And trying to set this up so nothing gets through is like trying to diffuse a bomb. So many things have knock-on effects, and I'm fiddling with these settings and hoping that I'm not going to suddenly stop him doing a thing that he's been used to doing as well. Because with the PDA, I'll just hear the noise next door. I'll be like, oh, shit. Oh, shit. I've disabled the wrong thing. Oh, God. You know, and we had a big problem.

Hannah

The wrath,

Mark

Yeah. And we had a big problem with he loves anime, so he watches crunchy roll, but some of some anime is age-restricted. So his iPad couldn't watch it because it was like, well, this is only for 15-year-olds. And he's like, I'm actually fine with that. So I now need to work out how to make it okay to dude, I'm getting stressed even just talking about it and it's constantly changing. So you can't keep on top of it all the time.

Hannah

And at interest change, you just get a bit like, okay, I'm comfortable with this, like, I know what we're doing, like, you're on Roblox, like, we got this sorted, and then no. We're gonna dan another game, which I've got no idea, it's not so well known about. How we're never getting this game?

Mark

Yeah. So you've outsourced it to your husband, which is great.

Hannah

Well Yeah, I made, and you know, I don't know about your children, but Henry's been banned from playing Roblox a couple of times.

Mark

I'm not laughing at Henry, here. No, Jay has been kicked off a few servers before.

Hannah

Yeah, yeah, and I can only think, and you can you have like 48 hours off, but so it's it is quite interesting because there's obviously some guidance going on about what's being said and like there's this conversation about what did you say going to look at what you said. Can you you know, and actually there's no reversing that. So if you were behaving in a way you shouldn't have been, you were right to get banned. And I'm sorry, I know that's very difficult for you right now but you got to take that consequence. So it is again, this real world skill about that there are consequences. And I'm not saying that everything doesn't go through unfiltered, but You know, I have sat in the chat and I've said, like, Henry, I'm not very sure that was like cool chat from that other person. He's reported them and they've come in. So this is why you have to sometimes sit alongside your child because. you aren't going to understand it, and they're probably going to have to teach you about some what to do it in order to learn about it. And that, as a parent, I think, is it feels scary If you don't understand it, how are you meant to protect your child from it? And so that's where I think you get into quite a one. It's better that we just do nothing at all. rather than we're going to have to go on this journey together, and you're going to have to help me understand a bit about it, and I'll help you understand what's safe.

Mark

It's weighing up the benefits against the disadvantages, I guess. I mean, like I will say that Roblox introduced age verification.

Hannah

The the protests about it.

Mark

Oh, right, okay, yeah, yeah. But Henry was like, This is bullshit It's like, Is this why you've been banned, Henry? Well, that wasn't too long ago, was it?

Hannah

No, about about, I don't know, about six weeks ago.

Mark

Yeah. But I do think it's a good thing. It's a good thing that essentially you're not getting twenty year olds able to chat with eight year olds. And you know, the age verification is much more stringent than it was. And I think that's a that is a beneficial thing.

Hannah

Yeah, and talking as well about like I've had I've found like the some of the YouTube videos watching, like when Henry and I watched them was like Yeah, I don't agree with that, Henry. Like, you know, like, this is what I feel as a parent. So, again, this kind of talking and learning point is so important.

Mark

But you have to go through it with them, right? You have to sit alongside them and share their interests, which, again, though. You know, part of me is like, you're doing screen time so I can get shit done. What I don't want to do is give myself another job, sit and have a discussion with you about why this is not okay. It's a minefield out there. But as you say, there is that flip side, right, isn't there? Where we want to protect our kids. from harmful interactions online. But also, we want to protect other people from our kids when there are harmful interactions. Like Jay has been banned from stuff. I still don't know why. He probably couldn't tell me why. When I said, like, oh, why? He was like, oh, yeah, I can't. I've been banned for 48 hours. I was like, what did you say? It's like, I don't don't even know. It's just his natural way of expressing himself. If he's angry at something, we all know. You know, you know Jay well enough to know now he's not going to hold it in, is he? He's not going to bite his tongue, he's going to say what's on his mind. And obviously, he's done that, and they've gone, yeah, yeah, I think you've crossed the line there. We're going to give you a ban.

Hannah

And I think I was mentioning this book. Catherine Knibbs has written a great book about cybersecurity and the specialist sections on neurodiverse kids. I haven't finished the book because it's a really big book, and it's not an audio book, and that's a problem.

Mark

It's not an audio book? Okay.

Hannah

Yeah, because I like all my listening, all my learning of this sort of stuff has to be like while I'm pounding the streets to and from.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that.

Hannah

But she does, and what I've loved about that is there are particular sections around the risks and the benefits, and I've and often I think this is some of the challenge versus some of the the arguments around these things, that the screens and the roller screens for neurodiverse kids aren't it just it's like one blanket fits all. And so I haven't finished it, but she uses the analogy about you wouldn't let your kids go to the park without knowing a little bit about what's in that park and what the route is there to go on it and actually kind of Not seeing this as thing as they do and you just disengage with, but you do. Not all the time together. I mean, let's be honest, we're not going to do that, but To kind of go to the park with them, go and play that thing with them for a little bit or go and see what they're doing.

Mark

Yeah.

Hannah

Time consuming though it is.

Mark

Yeah, I do know. Sometimes that can be quite. Quite fun. Like I do, you know, I only today was playing Roblox with Otto. And again, back to the self-esteem thing. I was shit at it. It was awful. He was like, Do you want me to show you how to do it, Daddy? And he did it straight away. He felt great. You know, I'm the one that had self-esteem issues after that. But yes, it is that's a really good analogy actually of going just just check out what it is And then when you go, all right, fine, and you've assessed it, then you can, yeah, crack on with it, I guess. And I think with anything to do with this, and I'm sure Catherine Nibbs probably goes into this in a lot more detail and they're probably a lot better than me, but is trying to open up that dialogue with your child to let you know if they see something that they feel is a bit off, which is not always easy for our kids. Because they don't pick up nuance very often, social nuance certainly, and they can't always tell if people are saying something that they don't mean. So that's quite a difficult thing to get them to navigate.

Hannah

And I think I I was talking the other night to another parent of a ch child old child than me. And she was saying how your rules will change. So originally when you know started gaming, you can't attract anyone. And then let her son made a really good point. Well, I don't really have any friends in real life, so I kind of need to have friends here. And then they had to kind of change their rules about, okay, you can talk to somebody who you don't necessarily know, but you're not to exchange any contacts or swap platforms. So because if the comms happens within the game, it's all documented. And she has the sort of understanding that she's allowed to check any comms that's on that tablet. So that's a level of trust. It's like, I'm going to let you do this, but I'm also allowed to check your history and I'll check your history to see what's happened. And I thought that was a really interesting way, like you know, you will have to change and evolve your understanding as your child's interests change and they get older. But like, yeah, I thought it was interesting that level of trust is like you can do this, but I also have to be able to see what you've been doing.

Mark

Yeah. This is the thing. I like I don't I don't have any answers to this one. Like, it's a really hard one to navigate, and it's a really hard topic to discuss because. If we're going to do it properly, right, if we're going to do it and it's completely safe, that involves a lot of extra work for people who do not have the time. Right? Or the mental capacity. It sort of opens up this understanding that, in order to allow our children to use screens and be completely safe, it takes a lot of effort on our part to do that. And I would say every single parent of neurodivergent kids is at full capacity as it is. There's no people going, what am I going to do on a Tuesday night? I know what I'll read up on online safety, right? We are already overwhelmed by mountains of other shit that we have to do. So. I constantly feeling like I don't pay enough attention to it, but I also don't have enough time to pay attention to it. So where where do we go? Like I've always been very wary of Neuroshambles not being something that people listen to and think, oh, fuck, I've got loads of homework to do now. Because that's when when I first started listening to other podcasts, that's how it felt to me of going, Oh my God, there's loads of stuff I'm not doing and I now need to do it. And it's like, that's not this is one where it is just like, yeah, it does feel like To me as well.

Hannah

You edge your way through and you have times that you think you're doing you're on top of this and you're like, oh my God, what's just happened? And how am I going to deal with this? I mean, I would love to know who other new ashambras are turning to to get their g guidance because genuinely like there's a few people that I like follow and I read a lot, you know, and I rate them. But I do feel like navigating this through the lens of neurodiversity is a different and interesting subject. And if there are people out there that can help us with some ideas and tips. Because this is just lived experience. This is not my there must be people out there that can help. And so it would I'm sure that other listeners might have some some ideas for us because it is a a massive, massive area and it is changing all the time.

Mark

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So if any neuroshamblers want to send any suggestions in of who we should Potentially follow, yeah. Tell me something on the socials that's probably easier to digest for many parents of neurodivergent kids. Um, then let me know. Uh, the Catherine Knibbs  recommendation also sounds like a really good one. What's that book called?

Hannah

Yes, so it's Tech Smart Parenting, How to Keep Your Kids Happy and Safe Online. And I think crucially that is her approach is just very different. It is that like this is an inevitability and it's like it's a more positive affirmation than everything is bad. Great, okay.

Mark

And that's neurodivergency focused.

Hannah

It's not neurodifferent, so it's a book for all kids, but it has grayed out sections on, particularly for neurodivergent kids. And often I find that I have to read books that have got some reference to that because it's a different set of rules, isn't it? Or a certain different approach to make it work. And I felt that she'd begun to tackle that really Really well, and I'd love to see more in this space written around that because I think it would be very helpful for many parents like us.

Mark

One of the concerns around screen time that I have in particular, but I also know is something that other people experience, is it can discourage other types of play sometimes. Because it's so familiar and it's so engrossing and potentially addictive, or just something that is a source of comfort to our children. they sort of lean towards that when sometimes, if they didn't have that, they would be doing other things like are they creative things? A bit of Lego or maybe a bit of drawing or just going in the garden and stuff. And I think As a parent of neurodivergent kids, if you find something that works, you don't want to give that up. So it's very difficult to sort of go, hey, how about not playing Roblox for another hour and we will go and do some knitting or what? That's a stupid example. Whatever it is that you're trying to get them to engage in, it's difficult well, there's a transition issue for a start, but it almost becomes a default. I think I know it does for me, and I feel a bit guilty about that sometimes.

Hannah

Yes, there's a real reluctance to leave the house quite often. We do leave the house Because if anything, I actually got a bit insane. The idea that we were going to have every can as a chill out is like not going to work. But I I think it it's hard, isn't it? sometimes there's a lot of compute screen times and other times there's not there's not so much. And I don't know quite what the cadence and the balance is. And I certainly you know, it's not the sort of family time I expected to be happening. I wanted to be doing day trips and walks in the countryside and But what sometimes we will say around that is, look, we need to go out and do something. And then when you come back, you can have that time. Or you can have your screen time for a bit and then we'll go and do something. And then you can have it. We use it as a bit of...

Mark

Carrot and a stick.

Hannah

Yeah. And often it is like you can't just cane all of your sort of tablet time immediately in the day, but you could have some when you come back and you have more of it. So that's how we use it. And I still feel at the moment we can just about and not always kind of get out and do some stuff or do some different things. But we don't do as much as when you're talking to other parents. Oh, we all went for a ten mile cycle at the weekend. It's like, wow. Even if they did get a full cycle, you know, it's there's so much whinging and meltdowns that you kind of that everyone's like, Why where did we come? It's hard, but I guess then I I was thinking a little bit last before I come on and would you ask me about it? But sometimes I also wonder, well You know, why are they so attached to screens, for example, what's going on behind them? And for me, sometimes I think it's that just because schoolers just Such a difficult experience for them that by the time that you get them at the weekends or the evenings, they're just not capable anymore of having these other ways of socializing. And like no one seems to be talking about school reform and why kids are going to screen having more screen time. And I have no evidence of this, but it just occurred to me that like Is it just about screens? Or is it actually a combination of screens?

Mark

That's interesting, which was what we were talking about earlier, about why are they seeking refuge in screens? it might not just be the screens themselves, it might be the thing that they're sort of moving away from to towards the screens.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Is it a pull from the screen or a push towards screens? Interesting, I've not really thought about that in that sense.

Hannah

Yeah, that's that's an the other thing that screens are really great for if you're trying to get through a transition, if we go anywhere now, we Google it, we look at it on YouTube. So there's always a video of like an attraction or something.

Mark

Oh, yes.

Hannah

And like so like you can indulge their love of YouTube by looking up YouTube videos of Noah's Ark, which is a bit too much Easter like let's have a look at this before we go. So like you can use it a little bit to your advantage that I'm trying to get them to do these things, you know?

Mark

I'm taking my kids on holiday abroad on my own in the summer.

Hannah

Good luck.

Mark

And I had to get their buy-in. And fortunately, I found the website of the place we're going Has loads of video footage of it. So I could go, this is what it looks like. This is what the place we're going to stay in looks like. And this is the walk from where we're staying to the swimming pool. Well, that was really good. Because they got really excited by it and they got their buy-in. And there's, you know, there's no way without their wholehearted buy-in that this is going to happen.

Hannah

So. And whatever episode you talk about Wi-Fi on holiday. I cannot tell you how much that is a relatable experience. So, if any reason if you haven't listened to that episode and you've ever had to experience a poor Wi-Fi connection on one or two, I can't remember who your guess was, but I was like Oh, I cannot.

Mark

Yeah. That was episode three, um, the holidays one with Dr Hildi Mitchell.

Hannah

Yeah, honestly. Um Yeah. WiFi is on holiday. Like one of our strategies for this summer is that we're going to buy like one of those wa like dongles to give us better WiFi because we've just been like quite like like going to like West Wales or whatever. Internet is terrible or non existent in those places. The dependence on good WiFi is a serious consideration for anyway, we will go on holiday these days.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so just talking about whether screens discourage other types of play, I think that sometimes maybe my kids don't need the comfort and familiarity of screens as much as I think they do. So when I sort of alluded to earlier with with Jay, now he's in a situation where if I say, Hey, we're playing a game downstairs, you want to come join us? He goes straight away. He's just, it just becomes his default that he does screens because it's fun and it's a nice thing to do. And that actually, if I offered him more opportunities to do stuff away from that, he would do more. And my kids are not often bored. And I think boredom is actually quite an important thing For kids, because they've always got screens available, either we're doing a thing or they're doing screens. They're very rarely just being and making shit up, making up a game in the the garden. Now, Otto and India do that sometimes, which is lovely to hear. They make up all kinds of weird and complex games. when they're left to their own devices or off their own devices, if you'll pardon the pun. But they will do that. But I think that it is so important. creativity thrives in that in boredom, I think. And I don't think that enough of that space is given To my kids, certainly personally speaking, and I'm sure a lot of other people's kids, because green time is the is the go to?

Hannah

Yeah, I I mean, that's the worry, isn't it? That, well, you know, when we were all growing up, there wasn't screens and yet To go out, and you know, I grew up in the middle of the country, I had to go out to the fields, and we played Swallows and Amazons for what felt like the whole summer holidays, you know, but that's not so easy now. And I think I share the discomfort that sometimes I feel we have an over reliance on screens that's not questioned in our households. Like you know, as an example, last night we you know, we started recently playing the kids love a game of Cards Against Humanity, the kids' version. Like and we try and I try and do that, like not I o obviously not like in the week when everyone's working at school, but like at the weekends we can do that. And we find if we can get like a game in after dinner. We won't do too long. But it takes a bit of like mental effort to be like, okay, so now we've all sat down and we've all eaten some dinner, rather than just say, okay, does everyone just want to have a bit of like tablet time while we clear up? It's like does anyone want to play a game? but actually, when we ask that question, the kid's like, Yes, Monopoly deal, or cards against humanity. So it is hard to like not like the routine and the predictability that we've talked about being so important for our kids. also sometimes you need to challenge it a bit to give these opportunities to do other things. But it can't be because I think many of us are very tired, very exhausted. On a good day, you can suggest that and it's like beautiful magic. But on another day, you could suggest that and literally have like an absolute meltdown about the other demand being made. So it's like this tightrope you walk, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah. When it goes to shit with like, I'll just go on your screen.

Hannah

I can't I'm not doing this anymore.

Mark

But I think that's a really valid point and that's kind of a note from myself rather than anything else. Is that I need to be offering alternatives to screen time more and be impartial about whether they choose to accept that or not. Just give them the offer. I think I would benefit from doing that more. Just putting other things on rather than just accepting that that's what they're doing and they're busy. It's like give it give them an out. As we touched on briefly earlier, another of the difficulties with screen time is around transitions. Because that is very often quite a bumpy ride. Given how enticing it is to them and how regulating it can be to them when you then need to get them off screen time to do stuff like get ready for bed or come come and eat some food. or come and say hello to the grandmother that's driven fifty miles to see them. That cannot that's not always easy, is it?

Hannah

No.

Mark

In fact, I know that that is an understatement. That is a significant understatement. It is usually very, very turbulent. And so introducing screen times is great, but it also introduces the possibility for pretty major conflict.

Hannah

Yeah, taking the tablet off is, yeah, difficult.

Mark

I think we're both sort of uh Reluctantly. We've just both seen horror shows before, and we're just like not wanting to lean into this one too much.

Hannah

Well, I mean, I don't know you must have some of the software. We have like a lock a software that locks So, it's not, we don't take the tablet off, the the the timer runs out and the tablet locks. So, one of the big things that we have is that we're like we used to have to prize it out the hands. That was useful. Pulling a tablet off a child who doesn't want a tablet is not it's like a high conflict situation. Now the screen locks. They can ask for more time. That can be very difficult, but at least it's not us taking it off them. But I often find also like we need to allow some time, even if five minutes, between like that tablet locking, the drama that will ensue after it. And the next activity that we might be doing.

Mark

Yeah, you've got to build in, build in turbulence. Yeah.

Hannah

You're the worst mother ever.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. Just hand over the screen. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. And there there are strategies that I use that I've I've mentioned on Neuroshambles lots of times, but when sort of transitioning your child away from screen time of just saying how long's left on this? That's my you know, the question I ask a lot in our household. How long's left? Right. Okay, you can watch this till the end. Unless, obviously, it's like a really, really long thing and then you Sort of made a rod for your own back, then.

Hannah

Yeah, my husband's great. He always says, Um, you can have this much time, and then you can ask for one more amount of time once more. So he always gives them like in his head. if it's like forty minutes he's got, he'll say thirty minutes and then he's always the good guy because he said, oh yeah, you can have another ten minutes. Whereas I'm like, no, yeah, nice, nice. But he's a bit more tuned in. The other thing that we sort of learnt the hard way is that when consequences were linked to less time on particular hyper focused games

Mark

Okay, yes, yes.

Hannah

That was a real inflammatory. And so actually, we actually reached out for a bit of advice because it was such a kind of inflammatory, and they were like, don't take away the thing that means the most. For example, like, you know, if it's roadblocks at the time, it's really important. Like that should be not be used as either a punishment or rewards.

Mark

You can earn more time or you have less time to do something else.

Hannah

It's too inflammatory. Like, this is not serving you.

Mark

You know, this is back to what we were talking about earlier: that screen is not just a screen, it's a method of regulation. They need it. for other things. So it's not just the fact that it it's a a screen in general. So you could say like no TV or something. It's like, yeah, whatever, I don't care. But when it becomes a regulation tool and a say a place of safety, It's a threat, isn't it?

Hannah

It is. And when the battle becomes about that, you end up losing in a bit of a spiral. And it's difficult because what What, how are you going to negotiate? And I don't know about you, but like my child is like a deep negotiator. Like, I don't know, he's going to go into like trading or something because he's like. I mean, his skills are and it just wears you down as well. Yeah, yeah.

Mark

It's like, oh, you're good, kid. Just take the tablet. I'm done.

Hannah

So yes, it's a very, very difficult balance to get right and one that we have grappled with for a long time. And we still Get it wrong. Yeah.

Mark

I think, yeah, usefully having something that auto-shuts it off is useful. Because then you're not directly responsible for policing. It's like it's out of my hands, dude. It's, you know, it's the system, did it? you know like blame the man one of the other negatives of screen time i think and it's one that i've sort of alluded to a lot and That I want to be honest about is guilt, is parental guilt. It's the guilt of them being on their screens. more than I would like, more than society deems acceptable. And th this fear, I guess, that Not a fear that they're rotting their brain. That was a fear that was peddled by, you know, fishwives and old people back in the day. I don't feel like it rots their brain. but I feel like it reduces my engagement with them. And and I f I I feel guilty about that sometimes.

Hannah

Have you ever been I mean, so the whole like screens and restaurant thing is one of the things that I find are really interesting. And we do if we go out which we don't often go out, actually.

Mark

We mainly avoid restaurants for that reason.

Hannah

Exactly. But we but sometimes you have to or sometimes you want to, right? And so now the rule is that like we will take a screen and head little headphones. And Henry, we expect him to engage with us enough to order some food and chat before dinner. comes when the food comes, but afterwards he can have screen time. And that you know, we're a family and we're a family of needs. So to say that we'll in we'll never eat out again felt like for me, I was just like, I don't like I need to do that. So actually, we'd never have that experience if we didn't kind of come to that compromise. And yes, always you get someone like rolling their eyes at you in that restaurant. But actually is that experience overall, like it it's nice to be able to do s to do something dare I say, like it normal, say it, guys, say it, say it. Like a normal family might do.

Mark

Can't we just have a lovely family meal in public?

Hannah

I mean, we can't really always have a lovely family member at our own kitchen table. No, no, no, no. Too much, et cetera, et cetera. But it like it just feels sometimes for me like and it's not where I expect To be, you know, I feel deeply guilty when I do it, but I sort of think we would never leave the house if we didn't. And the reality is, the more we do it the easier it gets. That is, Henry will sometimes choose to not have his you know, when I took him out for Easter at lunch and he didn't have a screen all the whole time we were in have him out for lunch. They do though. And so it it it but if we never had the screen, we'd never get in the face in the first place in order to do it. So there's this real sense, isn't there, that you feel the horrendous sense of guilt, but sometimes it's the only thing.

Mark

Where's the guilt aimed at though? This is what I'm trying to work out, right? So you're not you don't feel guilty for Henry, do you? Because he's no, he's loving it, right? Do you know what I mean? He want that's what he wants. Who is the guilt aimed at? Do you know what I mean? And I'm asking myself that question as well.

Hannah

The guilt is that you, it's not what you expected, is it? It's not the childhood that you had. that you created. Like that's what you know, that I I mean, my childhood I spent a lot of time in pub gardens with one bottle of cough and one bucket of crisps

Mark

Yes, so you feel guilty that your children's childhood isn't the same as your childhood? A little bit, but and that and me me similar similarly, I think, is that I had a great childhood. I loved it. And my kids don't have that in the same way. So then I feel guilty that they're on Screens? I don't know. That's that's I mean, I think it's an us thing, basically, is what I'm saying. That it I don't think it's

Hannah

It's sort of full circle, isn't it? I think a little bit to the sort of beginning, which is it's that sense of disapproval, that sense of I mean, I think this is something I shared when we first talked about this topic that, you know, I went along to the smartphone for your child to talk. And I you know, I really am very up for like limiting and safely using social media. Like I that's not that is not my problem. The problem that I really had is that they were like every hour spent on screen time is a missed opportunity to do something else wonderful. And it's like, well, I'm not sure you've walked in my shoes, but that is not my experience. And I put my hands up at the end of the thing. It was a GP. And I was like I'm struggling a little bit with this because actually screens are a regulation tool for some kids.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well done for speaking up.

Hannah

Yeah. And so

Mark

What did they say to that?

Hannah

They were like, well, actually, research shows it's even worse for your kids. I was like, yeah, you've really misunderstood the point in the question. And it's not that I wish to challenge the campaign because I, like many other parents, would like us to do more than engage kids on screens. But I do feel like you have to understand what different children and adults are using screens for, and there is a nuance to everything for all the reasons that we've talked about. And we shouldn't be you know, life as a parent of a neurodiverse kid is tough enough already. without an added layer of shade.

Mark

Absolutely. And I would take great issue with this opportunity to do something wonderful because to our kids Screen time is fucking wonderful. It's wonderful. It's free of so many judgments and so many difficulties and challenges that they face outside. Right. It is liberating for them to be able to have this connection with a thing that is rewarding, that they can control, that they are not failing at. It is wonderful when what is on the outside is not this rose tinted carnival of joy that these people are painting.

Hannah

Yeah, one hundred percent agree and anything we can do, I think. And that's why with trepidation, we've approached this topic and at times it's felt really difficult because we're talking about things which are not very popular and a lot of people don't agree with. But yet, somebody has to begin to articulate a different experience and how different people are using them. And I think it's important that we understand That screens can be used. That I had to ask if Henry could take one of his screens on an overnight school trip. And I'm like, look Basically, if you can't get my child to sleep, you you get a need to either do some meditation calm up with him or some audible. Otherwise you're going to be calling me and we need to find a way to make this work because it's a regulation tool. It's not about downloading and playing terrible games on the internet.

Mark

Yeah. It was interesting actually that you we started talking about guilt and then you sort of slightly changed it to shame, and I think that's much more accurate. I don't feel guilty. I feel ashamed that they watch screen so much and that I can't engage with them. I mean, like, dude, like, this is the thing. Like, I I do feel like I engage with them a lot. We play board games, we go out for walks, you know, not all the time, just when they can. But yes, we are being shamed as parents of neurodivergent kids. If we're in public and they're on tablets, we are being shamed for it And at home, we carry that even when no one else can look at us, we sort of feel that sort of echo of societal disapproval. And we're doing it to ourselves. Yes, could probably do more to offer alternatives just throughout the day. And I'm definitely going to be a bit more mindful of that. But I think that we are we're dealing with different beings here, and so those layers of shame do not carry the same weight, I don't think.

Hannah

And I think the biggest shift in our household on this subject has been when I've tried to let go of some of that shame a little bit. So once I sort of embraced the idea that screens would become part of our life and we might use them occasionally at mealtimes when things are very dysregulated, or we might just give that demand, you know, not all the time, that I'm now I'm a real stickler for sitting at the table having a conversation, but that's not always possible, right? That's not always possible for our kids. And somebody once said to me when Henry was first diagnosed that you've just lost all confidence in your ability to parent. And I don't get it. Like you're very, very you've got a good career, you're very strident, but you're just flailing around. And I think that shame is part of this spiral about you just feel like you're not doing a good enough job. and you're going to have to do it differently. And therefore, you get into this negative spiral. And that actually isn't helping you necessarily to cope. Because fundamentally, the thing that matters most in my household anyway is harmony at home. Have some harmony at home. That counts for a lot of connection and moments. And it keeps them regulated. Exactly. And so for me, that's become this really important thing. And I've noticed it's you know, if you were doing this episode two years ago, I probably wouldn't have done it because I wouldn't have felt able to. But B, my our experience was very different. And part of that was me having the confidence to do it my way for my family, not the way everybody else was telling me to do it.

Mark

Absolutely. Yeah. Also, very often You don't have a choice, right? This is the thing, right? If you're a single parent, or you solo parent, or you're a parent with a child who is at home and you're having to work remotely. What are your choices? There's absolutely no shame in looking after what is essentially a hierarchy of needs in your house, right? If you are a working single parent and you need to bring in money to live, Which means that you're going to have to your child is going to spend a lot more time on Roblox, then you're going to have to look after that. And then you know, you have to shelve the feeling of shame and go, Well, I am actually doing my very best for my child in difficult circumstances

Hannah

And very often these kids are the kids that get sent home. Like we often have to go and pick up earlier because there's been something that happens, so they're coming home There might be an exclusion. They're not able to go to after school club because it's too overwhelming. Holidays clubs are different. The things that other people are accessing are not necessarily available. So unfortunately it If it's the Easter holidays, and like you know, my seven-year-old wants to go to the holiday club, but Henry was like, Please don't send me. So, okay, that's fine, but I've got three hours' work to do today, so we can have some breaks in there, and we can. but I do need to do sort of three hours throughout the day at some point. And therefore, I'm going to rely on his screen for some of that time to do that

Mark

Absolutely.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

So we've already looked at some of the many positives of screen time for our neurodivergent kids. Obviously, so they can help them regulate better and socialize better, and they can learn and develop skills more easily than they can in the wild. We know about the the downsides as well, um, in terms of them being addictive and in terms of introducing a whole raft of safeguarding concerns that we know about, but don't really have the capacity to manage as fully as we'd like. And also, obviously, managing difficult transitions There's a lot to consider in this particular this con particular topic. But on balance, I would think as a positive, I genuinely think that screens are more of a force for good in our household, both for the kids and for me. And I think it you feel probably feels similarly, do you, Hannah?

Hannah

I agree. I agree. And I don't for me, I think when I was thinking about this It's not about one, you have to do this in real life or screens online. Like for me, there's a bridge and often like what screens do is bridge between the things that are difficult. and help us do more in real life because of sweet friendships being a great example. So they don't exist in separate worlds. They can actually be things that you know, have skills or develop opportunities to do other things. And that's been a much easier way to reposition screens as a bit.

Mark

Sure, actually. So if you think about like going to a restaurant Yes, it would just be unmanageable.

Hannah

Yes, exactly. And it won't always be unmanageable, right? That's just what I found. Like the more we've done it, the more we understand what the rules are around it, how it will work. it gets easier. So I don't think they're always going to need a screen in a restaurant. It's just for this period of time we will be using it. And So that's the way that I look at it, and it it feels easier than it's wrong or right.

Mark

So yeah, I think they're a huge positive. And I just sort of go back to the quote that we had at the The very start from Dr. Naomi Fisher about it's not about the screens as the physical thing, it's about what they do with them and what Opportunities they open up for your kids that are not as easily accessible as they are for neurotypical kids.

Hannah

Yeah, agree.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions. Now, these are the people or organizations that are doing wonderful things in the realms of neurodiversity. And I think it would be only be fitting that our neurodiversity champion for this particular episode is, of course, you, Hannah. Because one of the reasons that I wanted to get you on initially is because you are a true neurodiversity champion in your own right. You started a local group called Spectrum Squad in Penarth, Wales. So I wanted to find out a little bit more about it because, you know, it's It's wonderful that you, from being a regular listener of Neuroshambles, had this little seed of an idea planted in your brain from the mad cacklings of Jo Matthews. And it has blossomed into Spectrum Squad. So tell me about it. Please tell me more.

Hannah

Oh, thanks, Mark. Spectrum Squad was really born out of an idea that the people who give you the best advice are often people on the same journey as you. but also that there was no places and spaces where neurodiverse young people could come together locally. So like I'm talking really hyperlocal types of quite a small town and wanted to ensure that as young people were growing up and recognizing their difference, so we target kind of eight up to about twelve or thirteen year olds as they're beginning to become aware that they are neurodiverse. They could meet other people like them that would then become, I mean, friends, maybe allies, I don't know, but they would become recognised people. So, as they're feeding the couple of schools that we have locally in secondary. they will recognise people who might be using the kind of additional resource units and the the clubs that they support. So the idea is that you know if Henry is to succeed in mainstream, he's never going to use a kind of resource room if he doesn't know anything. So he's got to have some familiarity. Oh, look, there's that person I know. So that's kind of where it's born out. Basically, it's a neurodiverse youth club. We come together every other week on a Monday night for an hour and fifteen minutes. And I've co founded it with some amazing people that I've met on my journey. Harriet is a a fellow parent. I actually met her when we were in absolute abject crisis with Henry and she was so kind. And it turns out she's also not only a parent of Neurodiverse Kids, but also training to be an occupational therapist, almost to be qualified to specialize in the Neurodiverse.

Mark

Okay. Excellent.

Hannah

What an amazing person to talk about regulation. She's absolutely fantastic and she kind of really brings, I guess, that kind of more sort of sensory regulatory kind of approach to kind of how we can build that in. And then somebody else, Anna, who is a qualified youth worker and teacher specialising in special educational needs. and just has such an amazing rapport with kids that like she's like the Mary Poppins, she just brings them up all alive. And so she just does amazing stuff. So we've we come together every other week. We've been doing it. This is now our third term. We've got about 12 young people who come regularly. They can now be dropped off and they stay for an hour.

Mark

Parents drop them off?

Hannah

Drop off.

Mark

Dude, you are a legend in Penarth.

Hannah

Just the parents get that little bit of time. Just like an hour and a half. Some parents go for a run, some parents go sit in their car and enjoy the peace and quiet. Once kids are happy, obviously not the first session, but once they're happy, yeah, because we want them to be able to be independent and navigate peer dynamics themselves and give them a safe space. And now that's not to say that things don't happen in that settings. Like they absolutely do, we've had trio, we've had a potential fight, there were things that happened, but we're qualified, we're resourced, and we have a an amazing head called Arabella, who has just stepped in as a volunteer. She's a Learning Support Assistant by Day job and she's just very, very passionate about this. And we turn up every fortnight, and we're there for the young people. And because we've got to know them, we now can see a bit when things are going to happen or when somebody might need to stay outside and to do some time with them. And so last night we were doing boxing with Ross. Boxing and chopstick throwing. Don't ask me about that, our risk assessment for that is quite something. And another week we might be doing, we made slime a couple of weeks ago. So they always have, and we have a sort of sense where there's an activity in the centre, and then there's always activity outside. So we always have a box of Lego, we always have sensory toys. We always have some sort of crafting. So we were doing this this big graffiti kind of name sign of everyone, every young person involved. So yeah, so it's it's been Amazing. It's been I a massive thanks I couldn't have done it on my own. Um it felt way too overwhelming. But inspired by the conversation you had with Jo and then by seeing how Henry was with other neurodiverse kids when he knew they were all like him, I just felt what have I what have I got to lose? And if I can just help a couple of families and I can help Henry as well, this would be a better place. So it's been a real journey and I'm very grateful for all the families and young people who keep on coming because that they also make it

Mark

Amazing. Amazing. And what it's also what's really heartening is that all of these people that are kind of working with you to create Spectrum Squad, who are all brilliant in their own right and the perfect kind of blend of people, are all in your tiny local town. There are people everywhere. And when you start out on this journey, you think you're on your own. You think you're the only one or that there might be a few around dotted around the county or whatever it is. But actually, if you start putting, you know, these little flag posts in the ground and saying, look, if anyone else is like me, come and gather. you'll find people coming out of the woodwork and sort of curiously peeping over and seeing what you're up to and then coming to help. It's just it's really lovely to hear. Yeah, well done, Hannah. You're doing wondrous things. If people want to contact you about Spectrum Squad, what's the best way to get hold of you?

Hannah

So we have a Facebook page. It's closed, but you're welcome to request to join it. So it's just called Spectrum Squad. That's probably the best way to kind of get involved. And then you can contact me if you're locally in Panaf. We only work with about twelve to fourteen young people anymore, as you can imagine. Would be absolutely awesome.

Mark

Oh, currently, you're going to have to start setting up franchises all around the country now. Wonderful.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic Wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins. Now these are the things that for a neurotypical family would not even raise much of an eyebrow. But for neurodivergent kids, they are epic. wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins for us, Hannah?

Hannah

Yes, I think I was talking a little bit about having recently moved house And Henry is absolutely loves Lego and all things construction, but it turns out that flat pack furniture from Ikea is just the next level up. to Lego assembly and actually he's now really obsessed with wanting to go to IKEA and assemble your bits of furniture. So This feels like a massive change to think about it. And then maybe a a a more transferable skill from from Lego up. So we are very pleased. He was so hyperfocused he was up till 11 o'clock at night with a Saturday night, building some shelves with my husband.

Mark

That's genuinely impressive and also really useful. Like 'cause you know, Jay's hyper focus in a s very niche video game and specifically the skills and attributes of one individual character in that game is not a transferable skill to me. But you have now got your very own little Bob the Builder smashing through the flat pack furnishings as you try and furnish your new house.

Hannah

It works for now whether it all worked forever, but I'll take it.

Mark

You need to stop monetising him while he's still got the interest.

Hannah

He'd do it himself if he could, trust me.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, I believe that. That's amazing. That's really good. I've got a Tony Epic win, which is basically this week is SATs week. For 10 and 11 year olds in England. I don't know what it's like over in Wales, actually. Is it the same?

Hannah

Yeah, we don't we they're not called SATs, but actually now you mention it, Henry was like, Mum, we've had so many tests in school, so we must have some National, but it's just very remiss of me to not quite realise. But I mean, yeah, probably we do.

Mark

The great way to not build anxiety is just don't tell him. I'd not thought of that. No, it's been SATs Week for Otto. And if you will remember from a previous episode of Neuroshambles, when he was doing his mock sats. it was an enormous source of anxiety for him. So he was up late night in tears because he didn't know what the next day was going to look like as everything changes, all the classrooms change and the The teachers change because they're, you know, setting up exams and invigilating the tests or whatever it is. So everything changes. And he didn't really know what was what. And he felt like he was being tested. And you know how he feels about. competition and the element of being judged on stuff. So he was an absolute shambles last time. This week, it's SATs week He's fucking breezed through it. Now, he is being facilitated by a phenomenal learning assistant who is. Incredible and really supportive, but the crucial thing is he had experience with the mock, so now he knows what it looks like, and we know how to navigate that, and his learning assistant does. She just gives him snacks constantly throughout. He was like, I'm going to get snacks, right? She was like, Yep, I've got snacks, and tells him what the snacks are going to be and sort of like feeds like a Pavlov Dog. He's basically, you know, an answer, right? Yum, yum, yum this one down, and then pop another question down. So he's been conditioned to actually. Not have anxiety around the tests. And he's just I've just got emails. We're halfway through at the moment. He seems pretty chipper about it. I keep getting emails from his learning assistant saying he's doing really well. It's like Oh, such a such an epic win that for me, my child is actually doing sats without crying. which is an epic, epic win.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip

Mark

Okay, what the flip moments now. These are the things our neurodivergent brood will do or say that completely Baffle us in the moment and leave us just kind of wondering what on earth it's all about. If you have you got any, Hannah

Hannah

You go first and I'll reflect on it while I'm listening.

Mark

I've got plenty, don't worry about that. So we talked earlier in this episode about the idea that kids, I think, sometimes need to be bored. and to be creative sometimes. And I had a fun one from India recently, which gives you an example of exactly how she deals with boredom. I was in the kitchen and she could have came in, you know, like really dramatic. It was like, oh that was the start of the conversation. That noise. And then she went, I'm so bored. I feel like I have a disease. It's like... Not very melodramatic there, India. Hi, like a boreditis or something. I don't know. Um yeah, so That was a fun one. Just an aside, I had one from Jay the other day that went, My favourite English word is schadenfreude. And I went I tried gently correcting him by saying, You know you know that's a German word, don't you, Jay? He refused to have it. He was like, no. He was like, well, all words originate from somewhere, Daddy. I was like, well, I can't argue with that. You got me. You know, just gotta shrug and move on. Fine, fine.

Hannah

I did have a funny way this reminded me of. like how they don't always know the rules. How do we do the thing? Mummy, when is it that I stop calling you mummy? Whenever you want to, when do I go to mum? And I was like, Well, I mean, when you feel that's right,

Mark

Get a contract signed up

Hannah

I was like, It's really up to you. I I don't mind He was like, Okay, I think I should I think I should probably try mum now and get a bit older. I was like Okay. I love the way we had to discuss that.

Mark

That's wonderful. That's really nice. So are you are you mum now officially?

Hannah

Well, it's so funny. He's like he tries to remember, but he just slips back to me. He's like, I think it's okay until sec secondary school. So we've got Got another year, so we'll practice. But I love the way we had to have this discussion about it. It's obviously very important.

Mark

I love it. The final one I got from Jay is is this one where from nowhere, he just went, I've always hated festivals, you know? Too many people, unhygienic, lack of non-biohazard toilets So much trash, and the music played is always so forgettable. It's like, do you know how many festivals he's been to in his life? One. He's been to one fest. He makes it sound like he's a veteran of the festival circuit. Do you know what I mean? He's been to the last five Glastonburys and three Readings or something. No, he's been to one festival which was incredibly family friendly and not at all uh as he's made out. Um and he's just singularly decided that he's going to retire from them totally.

Hannah

Well well than you for taking it.

Mark

I'd love to do a festival but I've never against the regulators face. No this is wicked actually. It was a really good it was a really good one and I take Otto in India. all the time. Uh, like every year, 'cause they love it. But not all kids are cut out for festivals. Jay is definitely one of those. Um so so that only ever happened once, and I think we've all agreed that he's yeah, as he says, he's not. He's not cut out for us, it's not for him. It's fine. Okay, that's it for this episode of Neuroshambles Firstly. A massive thank you to you, Hannah, because this was supposed to be one episode. We were supposed to be getting this into an hour and a half. And it's been an absolutely bloody marathon stint. So, thank you for your services to Neuroshambles. I really genuinely appreciate it.

Hannah

Thanks, Mark. It's been an absolute pleasure, and thanks to you for keeping us all sane along the way.

Mark

The few the feeling is mutual. We're all here together, right? I'll also say a massive thank you on that note to Neuroshamblers far and wide. For continuing to download and recommend it to people and give nice comments on the socials and send in lovely emails. I could always do with a few more reviews. I haven't had a review for ages. By the way, I know I'll put a shout out, and you probably just go, Yeah, or whatever, but actually, it'd be really nice to see those bumped up a little bit. So if you do, um, absurd statement, but if you have a spare moment Leave me a refuge, that'd be nice. But yeah, you can also get hold of me on the socials on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook. Just a quick reminder that tickets for the live show are still available at the discounted Neuroshamblers rate throughout May. So if you haven't already booked up, just What are you waiting for? Get stuck in if you can. What I've noticed, it's been really nice, is that it's not like groups of people, loads of people just booking them on their own. Now, that shouldn't surprise me because it's a fucking nightmare getting a hold of childcare for neurodivergent. kids so they've probably at home done rock paper scissors and seen which one gets gets to leave the house in the evening right but what it does mean is it's It's really nice to know that people are are comfortable going to an event on their own knowing that they're going to be alo amongst like-minded people, you know, and I think, you know, that's it. You are going to be amongst friends. And a fellow neuroshambler. So, if you can get to Brighton on the 23rd of July, then I would absolutely love to see you there. You're never going to be alone if you're in a room. Of fellow Neuroshamblers. If you are available on that date and you're interested in attending, I will put a link in the show notes so that you know where to go to for tickets. You can also just search for Neuroshambles live in eventbrite. co.uk uk and you can use the access code "Neuroshambler" and that will give you the discounted rate. Alright, that's all the advertising done and all the admin done. All that remains for me to say now is have a nice life!