Screen Time: Part 1 - The Benefits For Neurodivergent Kids | Hannah Woods

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode 56 of Neuroshambles. Thanks as ever for joining me, Neuroshamblers. It's lovely to have you here. Now, I'm going to kick off this particular episode with a very exciting announcement that I've been teasing on the socials for a few days now. On Thursday, 23rd July 2026, I am going to be hosting my first ever Neuroshambles Live event. Sweet Jesus, what have I done? I'm going to be recording an episode of Neuroshambles in front of a live audience. It's going to be in the Nightingale room at the Grand Central Pub in Brighton, which is a Fantastic venue right next to Brighton train station. I'm also really happy to announce that my guest for that show will be the magnificent Lisa Lloyd. who many of you probably know as ASD with a G and T on the socials, but is also an author, an advocate, and a fellow frazzled parent of Neurodivergent Kids. We're going to have the whole room for the evening. So as well as recording an episode of Neuroshambles, Lisa and I are going to be doing a live Q and A afterwards, and there will be plenty of time to mingle with us both, as well as all of the other Neuroshamblers in attendance. Tickets are now live and I am giving you guys first dibs on them by setting up a secret link that gives you a discounted rate of eight pound per ticket throughout the whole of May. After that, any remaining tickets are going to go on general sale for ten pounds, and any old chancer can get hold of them. So make sure you get in first if you can. I'll add a ticket link to the show notes, obviously, but you can also search for Neuroshambles live on eventbrite. co. uk, where you'll be prompted for the access code. That code is Neuroshamblers, all one word, capital N. and that should give you the preferential booking rate. If that sounds like it would be up your street and you can somehow navigate the interminable wranglings of childcare for the evening, I would absolutely love to see you there, genuinely. So If you can make it, please do. Anyway, back to this episode. I've got a corker lined up for you where I'm going to be chatting to a new guest discussing part one of our two-part topic of the week. There's also the old favourites, Neurodiversity Champions, Tiny Epic Wins, and What the Flip Moments. So, without further ado, let's get it on.

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Meet the guest

Mark

So this week's guest is a longtime Neuroshambles listener who emailed me to say that an episode she listened to inspired her and a couple of fellow Neuroshamblers to start up a Neurodivergent Youth Group in their local area. which I was delighted by, obviously. After a few emails back and forth, I invited her on as a guest, and several very hectic months later we managed to coalesce and get our diaries lined up. So here we are. Now not only is she one of the founders of the aforementioned Spectrum Squad in Penarth but she's also a similarly frazzled parent to neurodivergent kid, so I am absolutely delighted to welcome her aboard. It's Hannah Woods.

Hannah

How are you doing, Hannah? I'm fine. Thanks, Mark. Really lovely to be on. What a privilege to be a speaker and not a frazzled listener for a change or a frazzled speaker.

Mark

Did I get Penarth right, by the way? Is that the pronunciation?

Hannah

Penarth, yeah.

Mark

Oh, Penarth, not Penarth.

Hannah

Just just outside Cardiff, yeah, yeah, not far, not on the South Plains, Wales.

Mark

Flying the flag for the Welsh listenership.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Great. So obviously, as we do with all of our guests, it's very important to find out a little bit more about your particular setup. So what neurodivergencies are at play in your neuroshambolic household, Hannah?

Hannah

So we are a family of four and my nine-year-old, Henry, has autism and ADHD and a demand avoidant profile of autism. So we found out about the autism first. That was the kind of one that presented in the most sort of needs at the time.

Mark

It's always a toss up, isn't it? Like, which one do I go for? Yeah, exactly. Because you can't do both at the same time because obviously, that would be way too efficient.

Hannah

Well, unlike many people, the crisis we were in, we went privately sort of for our first diagnosis because we were in a we were in a difficult situation. And so That came first, and then we waited for the NHS ADHD. And I think the thing that we're grappling the most, because I'm sure many of your listeners will relate to this, that different challenges come at different times. But what I've really realized in the last kind of couple of months or so is we have a really kind of strong PDA in our house.

Mark

I don't think there's such a thing as a weak PDA. I mean they're pretty strong, right? They're pretty dedicated to the cause.

Hannah

And as time you know, I'm sure other people might relate to this, but when time's really difficult, you sometimes kind of search, don't you, to what to listen to and what like what books or what podcasts. So I've just finished the Eliza Fricker PDA Family experience of PDA, and there's a lot that I'm learning through that book.

Mark

Is that an audiobook?

Hannah

It is. and it's an hour, which is awesome because you know you haven't got much longer if you admit that. So I really like those type of books.

Mark

Yeah, nice. Nice. That sounds good. I'll put that in the show notes.

Hannah

Yeah, strong recommend.

Mark

Okay, that's definitely one for me to check out later. So you've got an Autistic ADHD PDA, yeah?

Hannah

I've got a daughter who is seven. In your words, Mark, she's allegedly a neurodivergent at the moment. Um, I do have my moments, but I if I'm really honest, I'm probably just not quite ready to go.

Mark

Yeah, I know I've been there where it's just like, let's just wait and see a little bit longer 'cause let we're just you know, probably just gathering your strength after the first pathway.

Hannah

Yeah. So maybe, but whatever her presentation, she presents far more neurotypically and doesn't have the same level of challenges with like the everyday. And then we have my husband, Dave. Dave has actually very recently been diagnosed with autism and ADHD. This is quite a new, like, last six months kind of thing. Again, like many other listeners, when you're going through that process and you're looking at yourself and it's like, okay. And there's some similarities. But what's really interesting and again, something we're kind of grappling with is their profiles, even though they both have autism in HD, are quite different. So kind of navigating your way through those different needs is there were some real moments of joy and connection, but there are also some real moments of right, okay, no one's really getting their needs met here. So I think we're quite new to that, and we're still sort of finding our groove as a family who could be much more aware about like different profiles, different needs.

Mark

Okay. Good luck with that. I've been there, obviously. I have. I think I feel like we found our groove a little bit now. But it's been a bumpy ride. It has been a bumpy ride. But and I think I'm sure you will get there.

Hannah

Yeah. And you know, as to me, I mean, I think, and I have this soul destroying question quite a lot... But what about you? And I was like, I think, you know, I think I'm neurotypical. I don't know. I can do quite well at hyper focusing, but I think I I would describe myself as neurotypical until proven otherwise.

Mark

Oh, I like that. Neurotypical until proven otherwise. Yes, nice. I like it. Well, thanks for introducing me to your setup, Hannah. This topic of the week is quite an involved one, certainly more than I thought when I first suggested the topic. So let's crack on with it.

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What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, the topic of the week for this episode is one that I've had requests for from multiple different listeners, and that is the thorny issue of screen time with our Neurodivergent Kids. It's something obviously I've touched on briefly in various other episodes of Neuroshambles because it plays such a role in all of our lives, I think. But screen time can be incredibly important for our neurodivergent kids for a number of reasons. However, I think it's fair to say it can also be a bit of a double-edged sword. I think it opens up this Pandora's box of genuine concerns for us as parents. So I thought we'd open up that Pandora's box and we'd take a deeper dive into the tricky topic of screen time to try and unpick the reasons why it can definitely be beneficial to our neuro-exceptional kids, but also take a quite an honest and a candid look at some of the potential other problems that it might cause. However, this whole topic is a really nuanced conversation, and I decided to tackle it in two episodes, if that's okay, because I really want to give both sides of the coin the time each one deserves. So this episode is going to focus entirely on the positives of screen time for our Neurodivergent Kids. And the next episode is going to be solely about the potential downsides that screen time presents. So, Let's just start with the clarification of what we mean by screen time so that we're all on the on the same page. I'm talking about our kids' use of T V's, that's a screen, tablets, Phones, computers, and gaming consoles. So that's the broad definition of it. I thought it'd be interesting to see, Hannah, how you - before you had kids. How did you see yourself parenting your kids around screen time?

Hannah

Yeah, I mean, what a great question because I think that is fundamentally the challenge. You know, and my starting point for this is when I was growing up, I was allowed 30 minutes of T V a night. Child of the 80s, I wanted to watch Home and Away and Neighbours, was never allowed to watch both. could have half and half of each. That was how strict it was in my house.

Mark

You had to choose, really? Wowsers.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Maybe your parents just hated Australian soap operas.

Hannah

Yeah, only day I was allowed more T V was Sunday morning when they wanted a lie-in, and that was that was how it went. And they were really hard and fast rules, right? And so that was my and I actually I don't watch a lot of T V myself. I don't, you know, uh so I don't have a lot of screen time generally. I do a lot of listening. That's more my thing. So when I thought I had kids, I thought I'd have this like you know, we didn't even have a T V in our sitting room when we first had the kids.

Mark

Right. Okay.

Hannah

We had a you know, that that was the utopia that we were going for, you know. And we've had to really, really revisit that in quite a major way. And I remember being that person who looks over in a restaurant and being like, oh God, look at that. Child's got a you know, he's got a phone. I never do that with my kids.

Mark

You   such lazy parenting, don't you? You make I was judgmental as well. I mean, obviously things are very different now. But that is it. I think when we first start out as parents, we have these grand ideas that our kids won't be exposed To too much screen time because they're just going to want to hang out with us, right? And we think, well, we'll spend some proper quality time together. We're going to play charades and have a sing song and maybe read poetry. I don't know what. what other people get up to. But that's you know, that was the kind of family that I was going to have. At the most, as you were saying, we thought we could ration it, right? We'll go like an hour maybe a day as a treat. You know, if they deserve it, you know, that kind of rationing it. Now, obviously, now we've met our kids and we know a bit more about them. It's fair to say the reality is very different.

Hannah

Yeah. For me, it's often the point of difference. Like if we go out with friends or we have friends over, our rules are very different to other people's rules.

Mark

Yes.

Hannah

And we have had to navigate that quite a lot. And like it's like, well, it yeah, that's how we do things and there's a reason for that. Very happy to chat about that. But we found that works for us.

Mark

Do people try and kind of, you know, try and try and shame you for that? Do you Do you feel sometimes?

Hannah

Um, I mean, I think look, close friends have like been on my journey. Okay. As in, you know, they've seen the lengths we've gone to, they've seen the ups, the downs, like and, you know, I think they respect us for for getting to where we are and they respect that we have different rules. But yeah, and you know, family people don't know you so well, they don't spend a lot of time, they're they're sort of quicker to judge. And if we've got friends round, we will have to say to the kids, look, for this family, this is not okay. So you can have your sort of individual tablets, but you can't have X or Y. we have to help them understand that different families have different rules. But if you're in our house, you're going to have to kind of go loosely by our general rules, which is we're quite kind of easy with screens.

Mark

Yes, yes, yes.

Hannah

What we have to do in order to have harm what most matters most on a weekend and you know, like you know I've just finished these recently finished these holidays, that harmony at home is what matters the most.

Mark

Yes.

Hannah

How you get to that is important. That doesn't mean kind of you know neglecting your kids. It just means enabling them to sort of live in a house that's not fraught with conflict or yes.

Mark

But it is interesting, I think there's a societal view that screen time is viewed negatively. As a whole in society. So I think there's this the view that spending too much time on a screen is bad for children. That's not a new thing. That's always been around. Like you're saying, you were rationed to half an hour a day. I was told by my grandparents that watching too too much T V would give me square eyes. Did you have that? For the record, I watched shitloads of T V when I was a kid and my eyes continue to be resolutely round. Defiantly round. So I think that's that was obvious nonsense. But there there is that stigma, I think.

Hannah

Yeah, real stigma. And sometimes you really have to to challenge it and you know even my you know being really honest w when you sort of suggested this topic I oh that is really putting myself out there in you know even my social circles and networks to to really talk very openly about my approach here.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah

Because it's not what some of my friends believe in. And that's fine. Like, I'm, you know, I'm happy to talk about why I've got here. And every one will find their own journey and what works for them. But in our households, I think less judgment and a more a more openness to screens and what purpose they serve is. is so important, isn't it?

Mark

Yes, and I think you're you're right. When I was writing this, I am very reluctant to kind of talk about how much screen time my kids have. Or, how much screen time they need is probably a better way of phrasing that. Because I think there's this traditional view that kids should have no more than a couple of hours a day screen time. That's actual like the guidance from the NHS and the World Health Organization say up to the age of 11 you shouldn't have more than a couple of hours of screen time a day for the record All of my kids definitely have more than two hours of screen time a day.

Hannah

One hundred percent.

Mark

Probably more than one hundred percent more than two hours a day. But it's yeah, I way exceed that. And it feels sort of shameful to say that, doesn't it?

Hannah

Yeah, it does. And it's really hard because we should actually be able to talk about it. You know, on my son's tablet, he has a three-hour cap on a school day, a four-hour cap. on a weekend, and that's not including T V or other uses. So that's way more, but actually, that's working for our family.

Mark

I think you do pretty well if you're capping it at that.

Hannah

If there's a travel day or, you know, but we try like, you know, work, you know, this is for later, but that's the reality. Like it's three hours minimum every day.

Mark

Yeah, and it varies from child to child with my lot as well. And also just from day to day, depending on how they're doing. I sort of let them inform me a little bit more because I know when they, you know, when they need it. When we need it, and then you just be a bit more lax. So I think, and I don't know if I've got that right, if I've got the balance right or not. I do sometimes feel bad about it, but I'm also aware that with neurodivergent kids, as you are, and as every Neuroshambles listener is, it's a lot more nuanced than just going, right, two hours a day, otherwise they're going to turn into zombies or whatever the fear is around screen time

Hannah

Absolutely. And that's that whole thing, isn't it? When you're out and about and your child is having a tough time and then you say, okay, you can have a bit of my phone. And you can see of them going, Oh, she's rewarding bad behaviour. We're not rewarding bad behaviour, but we can all try and get through this experience in this public place. I went to the zoo over Easter and it was like So I can either try and settle your anxiety and we can once you're settled and we're here and we've arrived, we can then go on and have a nice day, which we did, or I could just say no, because that's what everyone around me wants me to do. And then we could probably leave in about ninety minutes because everyone's overwhelmed with time.

Mark

I want to see the pandas, so let's... watch Bluey and shut up. Because this two-hour a day guidance is based on the assumption that the child in question is neurotypical. And I do think. you do need to have a different perspective if they're neurodivergent. I'm not just saying that because they're my kids and I want them to be able to just kind of watch screens whenever I want them to. But, um Dr. Naomi Fisher has an interesting perspective on this. Have you sort of encountered her stuff?

Hannah

She's amazing, yeah.

Mark

And I came across one of her sort of perspectives on screen time that Rather than paraphrase, I thought I'd just sort of read it verbatim because I really liked it. And she says, There's a lot of fear around screens and what our children do on them, but what if the very concept of screens is stopping us from thinking clearly? A screen is just a sheet of glass. That can't be harmful in itself. It's what's happening behind the screens which matters. Screen time can include socializing, research, reading, playing, creating, and much more. which I really like sort of putting and giving that context is that for our neurodivergent kids, it's not the time they spend on the screens that we should be focusing on. We should be asking what function that screen is serving for that child.

Hannah

I really, really relate to that, and she is an awesome writer, isn't her? Her book on the not the naughty step, the opposite of the naughty step, I can't remember the name of it, is it's really helpful because it helps you to really question why You're doing things and things like the noisy stuff. And it's the same with screens. Why do we think this? And is there another way? And some neurodiverse children might not need a screen, and that's great, but a lot of them do. And rather than shaming parents into feeling this is a sort of taboo subject that we can't actually speak about, actually could we all talk about it and educate people because I I've been into school and they say, Oh, well, you know, we can tell when you know Henry's had loads of screen time at the weekend. It's like you know, yeah, you know, and it's like, well, if you'd like to come and spend the weekend in our house and see like the realities of what I'm trying to deal with.

Mark

Let me show you what it's like without screen time and then you can get back to me.

Hannah

Yeah, you know, and it well it's you know, they don't say just for him, but they say that there's lots of kids who have too much and that there is a real perception in school that screen times and you know, is a really thing that we've got to crack down on, and we're a big smartphone free childhood campaigning school. And I and I and I don't you know, it's not I'm not saying that's not the way forward, but I'm saying there's a lot of nuance to some of that campaign that is not reflected. And don't isolate people who aren't able to live by some of those rules because the principles are great. I think we all agree safe content, etcetera, is good. But the whole screen making it about screens, I think is problematic.

Mark

Yes, the screen itself is not the the villain here. It's not the problem here. Because as you say, some people need screen time, some people don't need as much. You know, some kids rely on screens like, you know, uh non speaking autistic kids using tablets for AAC apps So if you're not familiar with that, that's augmentative and alternative communication. So symbols or words on a grid, and then they generate sounds when they're tapped, which allows them, literally gives them a voice. They can communicate. by using a screen. You can't be saying that the screen itself is the problem there. It's what they're doing with them that is the important thing. So I think outside of this, the use of screens for like watching T V or playing video games or being able to take a deep dive into their special interests, right? Just, you know, that monotropic research can be massively beneficial to our neurodivergent kids So, to start off with, I want to shine a light on some of the positives and the benefits because there really are. And I think parents that don't have neurodivergent kids don't understand what the benefits are. So I thought we'd go through them. The first one, for my lot certainly, and I'm sure for lots of Neurodivergent kids, is regulation. Right. Screen time is a a really good way of helping kids regulate themselves when they're overwhelmed. My kids regulate through screen time quite a lot. It's really beneficial to India, for example. When India is in meltdown, when she's overwhelmed and she becomes situationally mute She can't articulate what's going on. And if I try and engage her in any other way, she just can't deal with it. What I've learned to do now Is literally just take her by the hand and I lead her to her bedroom. It's not actually her bedroom. I've never mentioned this in Neuroshambles, but I'm going to mention it now. She's got a little nook. We've cleared out the bottom of a we've got a corner wardrobe, right? A fitted wardrobe with a corner bit. And we've cleared out the bottom bit and she's filled it with duvet. And lights and like squishmallows, and just like all and fidgets, and just her favourite things. And she just goes in there and closes the door on herself in a wardrobe, which is amazing. And sometimes she has the cat in there with her as well, 'cause he seems to quite like it. But what I do is I put her in there and I give her her iPad and I put on bluey. I don't even ask her what she wants to watch. It's like you're going to watch Bluey because I know that by the end of an episode of Bluey, India has re-regulated, and then we can talk about what happened in that moment of overwhelm. That is a strategy that is really important to her and to me as a parent.

Hannah

Yeah. Really interesting. You've got a space in a wardrobe. We had a space in a wardrobe in our old house as well that Henry created for himself with cushions and lights. and like to uh fidgety toys and duvets. And actually in our new house because we've recently moved, we've got like drawers under the bed that you put linen in. And now he goes in one of those. So and like this whole like squeezing ourselves into a small space seems to be really important. So that's part of the reregulation. But our go to, you know, every morning when Henry gets up, he's allowed twenty minutes screen time, and he would be lost without that kind of gentle ease into the days. Like that so that's never taken away. That's always there. Like that's the fundamental. He can rely on that routine. Routine's quite important to him. And similarly, when he comes home from school, always gets thirty minutes tablet. That's just what he needs.

Mark

That is so important for regulation, isn't it? Especially when you come into the house from being out out in the wild.

Hannah

Yeah. And Henry actually he he cannot have a conversation with you. Like if you pick him up from school on the way home as a day, he is done. He is spent He really needs some time just to be to control that content. So I don't know about yours, but you know, He watches quite, um, like the same content over and over again. And it's almost like that is soothing, you know. I mean, yeah, Bluey, I mean, we've probably watched every episode of B luey 3000 times, and that's one of the nicer ones.

Mark

Oh, it's amazing, I love Bluey. Sometimes I have to encourage her to put it on.

Hannah

Yeah, if it if it was only Bluey all the time, I'd have no problem. It's not always Bluey. We've progressed to Spongebob or some more YouTubey type stuff. But that is like though that routine and that knowing when downtime will come and when no one's going to ask any questions or make any interruptions of him is so fundamental. And we've learnt the hard way not to threaten to take that away. That is given whatever has happened.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, that's in the bag. You've got that. And you're right, the predictability is really important, but also that they can control what that is. is so important to them. If you think about your way, he's been out the whole day, he's been at school and there's been a lot of unknowns and a lot of transition and a lot of demands. He's PDA, right? If he comes back into a place where he controls everything, He can pause it. He can rewind it. He can find the specific episode that he wants. No one's asking him questions. He's in charge of this little pocket of time. Can you imagine how soothing that would be if your nerves are. jangled and on edge after a day at school. So I completely see why it's so appealing to them.

Hannah

Absolutely. And I think this sense of being the person in control They haven't been in control all day. You know, and I don't know what your household is like, but we are, you know, I think, you know, our nine-year-olds he sort of does control a lot of our household routines and what we what we can do and what we can't do and you know, we push and do what we don't. But school, he's not in that space. And so he really needs to feel a sense of control. very quickly as soon as he's kind of come through the door just to rebalance that.

Mark

And it probably helps him get through the day as well. Knowing that he's kind of got that waiting for him. We do a thing. Pretty much if we go out. So I go swimming with my kids a lot. And we've got this thing now that as soon as we come back into the house after swimming, every one of us just Goes to our own room, right? And just has a bit of screen time, including me. I need it as well. Do you know what I mean? Because I haven't been able to sort of Check emails, or I haven't been able to respond to text messages yourself when I've been out because I'm just like keeping an eye on the children and which locker they're in and swimming, and you know, just trying to wrangle them all. So, when I get we all disappear for like 20 minutes. And just do our own thing. And it's really, it's that lovely feeling of calm after, you know, after what can sometimes be quite a stressful day.

Hannah

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, isn't it? Because again, this kind of connotations of screens. So for example, when we're traveling in the car, we had like a long battle over where we should take Because should you have screens in the car? You know, should we be that family that plays "I spy" or all of us, you know, the joys that you think that you were the kind of car bingo or got the make of car?

Mark

Let's play a word game, Daddy. No.

Hannah

You know, occasionally we do in actually at the moment my child's hyper focus is actually like sp uh sports cars. So like actually he's really interested in in in trying to sport Porsche, for example. Not that there are too many around here, but he's like hyper focused on on that. But generally what I found is what he's doing on his screen, if we allow screen time, is he's just listening to music. So if I said to you, do you want to listen to some music on a car journey? Everyone would go, oh, yeah, of course, right? But it's the idea that because it's in his tablet and that's a screen, that's a bad thing. Yet actually, if your screen is just listening to your musical choice, so you're better regulated by at the end of a long day out I mean, bring it on. Yeah, well, that's wrong with that. Well, Spotify now has music videos.

Mark

I found this with Otto. He loves listening to music, but also. if there's a thing you can look at at the same time, he's engrossed in it in it, uh, in the car. So, yeah, that's interesting.

Hannah

Yeah, I know that's a it's a mixed bag with the video content for Spotify because you're like, I just sometimes like you to listen to the music, but anyway, it's there and I haven't worked out how to disable it yet.

Mark

So yeah, Otto with screen time, it's interesting, is that he knows it regulates him. But he also is quite conflicted about it sometimes, you know, because they get into their special interests, right? They watch a thing, you know, Jay watches his anime, India will watch every episode of Bluey. thousands of times. And Otto had a a cartoon series that he watched. And he watched it every single day until the series ended. And then I found him looking really upset and really sad. And I was like, what's wrong? Are you okay? And he was like. Well, the series he watched was called Gravity Falls. I don't know. It's probably not reached you yet.

Hannah

No.

Mark

It's quite a fun one. And he said, well, Gravity Falls has ended now. And I was like, well. You can watch it again, and he didn't want to watch it again because he felt bad about doing it because he just finished it and he thought he was becoming obsessed. So he felt sad about that, which was just like, that was heartbreaking to me. So I sat him down and I had a conversation with about this is this is a special interest. That's okay. This makes your brain happy. So, if you want to watch it again, you crack on. You know, you look at India and what her special interests are. Look at Jay and his special interests. You have a neurodivergent brain, and so this is a thing that makes your brain happy. So just do it. And once he'd had that permission to do it, he just went, oh, okay, fine. And then he just started watching it again. But It's really interesting that he saw it as a negative despite the fact that his brain really wanted to do it.

Hannah

I guess that's what will be coming kind of w as you get a bit older and they're a bit more aware of their differences to their Peers maybe are they using screens in in very different ways, aren't they? We don't have that level of awareness. Yeah, but I very much suspect that that will that will come as they get a bit older and realize just how different he's using it to his friends, I mean, I'm sure like your kids, um, you know, they tend to work in clans, don't they? So many of the... Close friends to me are definitely kind of neurospicy in some ways, and are probably using screens in quite similar ways. But again, we have one friend whose child is far more able to regulate his time. Like he's like, oh no, I've had my like 30 minutes of robot stay, so I'm not allowed anymore, and that's it.

Mark

He's policing himself?

Hannah

Yeah. Yeah. Not our child. I mean, you know, I'd love to. Oh, no, mummy. I don't want to have my screen time, but he is aware. And this was something that was really important to us, actually. we talked to him about how much time do you think is reasonable for us to allow you on average every day?

Mark

You talked to Henry about this. Yes. Yeah.

Hannah

We did. And we talked about what was reasonable and what we both think, and we agreed it together. And actually, just a couple of weeks ago, it was an Easter holidays. I was like, you know, there's been a lot of kicking off today. Like, what Like, what's going on? Like, is there I had to take him for a drive because we'd had quite a bumpy kind of start and it was like, I really can't go into the Easter holidays with like this this what's up as I was like is it screens like if you had two he's like no you know we agreed four hours in the holiday And I think that's good, mum. I don't want any more, but I just need to have that time. And so I think, again, that sense of Being able to sit down with your child and work out what's right for them and then revisiting.

Mark

Interesting. I have not done that with my kids. That's interesting. I might try it just for a laugh.

Hannah

But it's like what's reasonable because there's you know, there's what you want as a parent, which is not as much as they want. But let's be realistic, they're going to have some time. And then that stopped us from so we were in a loop all the time. And I also like, no two parents have quite different ideas about how much screen time is okay. And so we had to get on the same page about when we were going to say yes to more screen time, when we were going to say no. Because otherwise, we would just go always end up in this kind of family. Like, I don't want you to have more Ting Times. But if you've got that time then we all know the rules by playing.

Mark

Yes, and you can't play parents off against each other. I know that Daddy's going to give me a little bit more screen time on the sly.

Hannah

Exactly, so we had to kind of get there, particularly, you know, with a husband who also, you know. likes a phone and he could give him before he was diagnosed the book How How to Break Up With Your Phone for Christmas a couple of years ago. And you know, and it's a funny joke, like, Dave, look up for your phone, you know, and and and that's Because his phone serves a different purpose than maybe so.

Mark

Maybe he's using it to regulate. That's interesting.

Hannah

Exactly.

Mark

Yeah. Of course.

Hannah

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is it, you know. And we've all taken the mick out of him over many years, and now it's like, we need to roll that back. because actually that's part of how you cope with with life and that's okay. It's just that you're an adult and you get to choose that, but we need to find a way that also Henry has a Some degree of change.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. I think the ADHD brain in particular seems to crave screens. And I think not only is it an instant dopamine hit, obviously, you know, because I get that as well. You know, of this instant dopamine hit of checking the socials and, you know, doing all that side of things, but also With my kids, they need something else going on, right? They find it sort of I don't know how they find it weird to only have one thing to focus on. Especially Otto. His brain is all over the place. So when he's eating, he has to Be reading something, and he has to be asking questions of other people. He's got, like, his brain is so busy that just having one thing is actually stressful for him in the way that for me, having multiple things is stressful. So screens are that sort of dopamine hit that he needs that means that there's something else going on in the background. And so even if he's not really watching it He needs to have it on. So he'll be in the living room and he'll be like very often his like his favorite way of regulating is to have something on TV But he's not watching it. He's got a table tennis ball and a table tennis bat, and he's whacking a ball against the wall, right? Just with this thing going on in the background. And that seems to calm his mind.

Hannah

Yeah, I really hear that um T V be back in the background while Lego Samuel plays a lot of Lego, like hyperinterest. We have like twenty kilos of Lego, which is Colour sorted.

Mark

Wow. Wow.

Hannah

Yeah. If that's not a sort of sign in our direct opposite journey, I don't know what it is.

Mark

No further questions.

Hannah

And um yeah, he he needs noise and a actually again today um we we have my um my my brother and his wife over for for lunch and Amy said to me, I mean, these things are always a bit difficult, aren't they? When you're sort of you know, come for lunch, great idea Then it's absolutely chaos and your kids won't do anything and you know they're over there on their screens because you just want to Have a chat. He was like, Put some music on. I don't like it being so quiet. And I thought, like, music will overstimulate. We've got, you know, four adults in a room, you and your sister, no need for music. He was like, I just need noise, or give me my headphones. I was like, Okay, right. And they're serving yeah, this kind of needing to do three things, four things at once is really important.

Mark

And but sometimes you've got to get that balance right as well. Because I like listening to music while I'm cooking or doing something. Right, and if I'm listening to music and I'm talking to Tam, Tam insists that I turn the music off because they can't concentrate. But on a similar note, Tam likes listening to like audiobooks or podcasts in the background. Right. Which I can't I can't have a conversation while someone else is talking. And so it's yeah, it's just a shit show, you know? Like Jay is similar to Otto in that he plays his game console. while YouTube is on in the in the background. So he's listening to that, but playing that. It's like I just like that would fry my brain, but it he needs it. And that is that is how he regulates.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

Which is very curious. I think because my delicate neurotypical brain would crumble at any of this. I need to focus on one thing at a time so I could really, you know, give it the attention it deserves. But I now know that it gives them pleasure. It scratches an itch in their brain, or however that it manifests itself. It's something that brings them pleasure. So I have to let it slide. The other unexpected benefit of screen time, I think, for my kids is that it is a really useful tool for socialization for neurodivergent kids. Because I think there is again this idea in society that screen time isolates kids from the real world, you know, that then it's not the real world. I think, well, to be honest, that's probably part of the appeal for them sometimes. It's like, I'm just doing my thing, leave me alone. I don't want to socialize. I want to hyper-focus Because they're not massive fans of society at large in general. So, you know, I it it's a better alternative for them. But this this whole concept of it isolating kids from the real world Makes the assumption that social interaction has to be face to face to be meaningful. And I think for many neurodivergent kids doing things via a screen, like gaming online or sharing memes or texting to each other or being in a group chat Can offered them like a genuine sense of connection and belonging that's not face to face, but is just as valid and more accessible to them, I guess. Because you haven't got the the noise of social interactions, which can be bewildering for a lot of our neurodivergent kids.

Hannah

I think actually for me, screens and its benefit for building social friendships has been a real massive game changer. So You know, who is in year five now, probably a couple of years ago, eighteen months ago, perhaps he came to us and he wanted Roblox, right? So, you know do a bit of googling on Roblox, like, you know, and it was like, oh God, have I read all the bad things, you know, and oh god, but you know, actually, but his two best friends had it right. And Henry's already got so many points of difference, right? I don't need to add to his points of difference, right? He struggles to fit in at school, he doesn't play football He doesn't do any drama or singing. He doesn't do any games. He rarely does that much. He does a couple of things after school. But he really struggles to fit in and join in and find his people. So I was like. you know, I'm gonna go with this, right? I'm just I'm not gonna take that away from him. I need him to find some social currency. And if it's Roblox, then I'm gonna go with it. And at the beginning, I was like, Oh my god, what have I done? This game is so like dopamine hit. And there's a lot of arguments about how to get it. So it's not all been good, like just for the records. However, On balance. The con so Henry now has a weekly call, not on Roblox. There's a platform called Just Talk Kids. It's like built for children to be able to message and call each other safely. five o'clock every week, he calls his best friend and they game online together. And that is a core part of Henry's weekend routine. So wherever we are Whatever we're doing, we work around the five to six call. Because that is a keeper. And those conversations have actually Deepened. So they are he's played with existing friends. And what's happened through time is there was just two of them who were already friends sort of in school. But as that has gone, there's a little gang of them who's actually built up. And actually, it's it's actually built Henry's confidence to have conversations with people in real life. So there's kids that you never talk to. And I'm like, oh, you're just you're just playing with Jack online. Do you hang out? I thought Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're robots now. It's cool, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's definitely like part of our friendship group now. And that for me was like It's just really important that we just remember that friendships count. And it's not always about online, offline. And of course, there is lots of negative things around robots. I'm not saying that that doesn't come out as risk. But they can enhance and maintain and build a social confidence and a currency that neurodiverse kids really, really struggle with.

Mark

Yes, but in the face-to-face world. where it can be very difficult to to have those interactions in the playground or in the classroom or whatever, because I know that my kids struggle with that. My kids are always better if they're doing another thing and chatting almost as a sort of by product of that. That's definitely, I think, an ADHD thing. Where it's like, oh, well, here's the thing that I'm doing. Oh, and you're here. So we'll talk about it while we're doing it. And they sort of build friendships and they communicate. almost as a side effect of it. We've also done a MindJam. I don't know if you know MindJam, but when Jay was in a really kind of rough place when he was in burnout. Mind Jam is this online thing where they team they pair you up with a mentor. I've mentioned it in one of the previous episodes in the the Dan Clark episode of Neuroshambles 'cause Dan Clark actually founded MindJam. and they team you up with a an adult mentor, and you basically just play a game together. And it's not it's sort of therapy by proxy. If you like, in that you they they're just there. What do you want to play? Minecraft? Great. Let's build something on Minecraft together. And while they're doing that, they're focusing on another thing and then it's like, oh, you know, how's how's school? Have you got any worries about it? And it's not a direct, you know, they're not face-to-face, like saying, Now you need to tell me about this. They'll just drop things in. Or if, you know, if Jay would say something, he'd pick that up and go, Well, that's quite interesting. How did you feel about that? You know, and It's almost this sort of conduit to having deeper conversations because the conversation isn't the kind of the only goal, if you see what I mean.

Hannah

Yeah. And they they they str I mean, we we've done a lot recently with him. Like he's really at the stage where he's really grappling with his friends. He's in the car in the same. I mean you know, I really with my friends matter to me, but I don't know how to keep them. He said, I don't know what to say to them. And it's in those conversations that you're like, and you know, and This afternoon we had a couple of his friends came over, and originally when they used to come over, they'd bring their tablets and there was more screen time. Today he had two friends over for three hours. About 40 minutes on their tablets the rest of the time, they're in the trampoline trampoline. They're doing this massive kind of Graffiti, you sign your names, get the whole whole class of the whole thing. So it hasn't taken away that creativity, but what it's done is it's made the transition into that play date, that commonality much easier. and it's allowed him to build and develop friendships that can then go on to do other things that he finds much more difficult. So there's obviously talking to people you don't know online and all that, we're not probably quite at that stage in our there is in our journey. But for us about maintaining and building friendships through a common shared interest has been has been such a benefit for us.

Mark

Yes, which is great. And Jay, I think, is similar for that. Jay finds it quite difficult to meet friends in person. But he's found a couple of friends at at school now, and now, every night, pretty much, they have a a group call and they play this game online together. And I'm s actually surprised you can't hear it on this recording because he gets very animated and he's like shouts, very often swearing from Jay. But like that excited at the game, not at the friends, just to be clear. But that's really kind of Made their friendship closer, and it's just a lovely thing that when that happens, and I wouldn't ever want to take that away from them, and that's because of screen time. It's about what that screen time is used for. That screen time is used for a game, but they're playing that game and they're also talking. And so that is much more valuable to their growth as humans. than saying, ah, you're only allowed two hours of screen time because because it screens for more than two hours and whatever will people think? What you know? It's like, no, I see him growing. and I see him forming friendships whereas previously he struggled. I don't want to take that away from him. I don't think it'd be fair.

Hannah

No, no. And you just know, don't you, that I can see in Henry that that gaming in some way will always be part of his Life. I mean, it was very much part of my husband's life before we had kids as well. Like, that was what he did a lot of. I mean, we We joked when we first met, I got so close to them gaming, I threw an old game out the window actually of a flat we lived in 'cause I was like, Enough of the game, it's four in the morning. You know, if only I'd known it was just a hyper focus, you know. I did, it was like an old, you know, Old school, it was like a disc thing, you know, and I was like, I'm done with this game. You know, I didn't know what I know now, and that was just a predictability of knowing the game. I I again, I I you know, it is it you know, it there is so much nuance, isn't there, in this? You know, you know, I you know, I I you know, I just think that we Playing together online, you know, if you look at someone like Minecraft, for example, like that's considered to be an online Lego. Like, if you say to people, I'm going to have my friends around and they're going to play Lego for four hours, no one disapproves of you. Yeah. But why? Why does it have to be a little bit more?

Mark

It's this stigma again, isn't it? Yeah, it's the stigma of the fact it's on a screen therefore makes it less Wholesome, I guess. Yeah, yeah, whereas actually, I think it's way more wholesome. If I listen to my kids aren't very good at being collaborative on many things. But there's a couple of games that they play and I hear them collaborating and it's a It's a thing of joy because they're giggling and they're strategizing and they're communicating as a team, which is so lovely to hear. Not just between themselves, but also with other people online. There's a there's a game that they've played before where you kind of meet other people online and you kind of take part in a game. And I've I've heard my kids communicating. And, you know, my kids are eccentric. So I hear them confusing the shit out of Americans. Just like like they don't know what's going on. And something in me feels a little pride that they're just doing their own little thing, in their own little bubble. This little pocket of confusion, the other side of the Atlantic, is a thing of joy for me. But they they find so much joy in it and this sort of teamwork, seeing this teamwork happen is really lovely.

Hannah

It's lush, isn't it? Because so often they're you know they're not team players, are they? And we've got so much scribbling and beckering in our house at the moment, you know, who you go through phases and it's just relentless. But suddenly, for some reason, like Minecraft education has suddenly been dusted down and the kids are building this amazing world and they can spend like ages playing so nicely. Collaborative. I'll help you with this. I can do that. And and you know, um yeah, we won't talk about the sense of mastery and Henry's great at these games. And there's not that many things that he feels a real sense of like I can do this really well. And all skills have to be celebrated, you know, collaboration teamwork, creativity, so important, you know. And if that's done in real life or on a screen, does it matter?

Mark

There's still a validity to it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Another one I just mentioned from the social point of view, certainly for my kids, and I'm sure for lots of other neurodivergent kids out there, is just sending memes. Like my kids send me little like YouTube shorts that they've seen. Jay in particular will find like this really nuanced like YouTube clip about something about this video game It's communication to him. That's how he communicates, right? He's he's pebbling, right? You've heard of the term pebbling.

Hannah

Yes, yeah.

Mark

If you haven't neuroshamblers, you haven't heard the word pebbling, it's basically sharing. Just something that that your child thinks you might find interesting. And it's called pebbling because penguins do it, basically. It's not a love token. It's just like, hey I just thought about you. I thought you might like this. And it's a sign of connection and it's a sign of affection. And Jay does it a lot with sharing. He's regularly shares stuff that he finds on YouTube. that then I n I have to watch because, you know, he shared it with me and I don't want to reject that. So I watch it. But that's communication in a way that two neurotypical families does not look like communication, but I see it for what it is, right? It's a sociability.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

The other day, he shared something with me about Donald Trump. Right. He's been sort of thinking about that quite a lot at the moment. And he shared something with me. And he just at the end, he went, I'm scared. This is about Trump bombing Iran. And I sort of just got back and, you know, gave him my perspective and went, Do you want to have a call about it? Expecting him to go no, like no. But he just went yes, please. And we had a phone call about what his concerns were. Which he would never have brought to me if it was just in person. We wouldn't have had the opportunity to open that conversation. And we had a really lovely call about it and I could sort of put his mind at rest a little bit and and contextualize some of it. And it was, I think, through the ability to share something from his screen, right? It was really important, I think. It's also really important to sort of share, to join them in screen time, right? To be sociable. I know that's not always possible, and I know it's not always interesting. God, it's not always interesting, but. Sitting with them while they're having that screen time. It's not just stick your kid on a screen and let them crack on with it. Sometimes, just sitting with them and letting them show you something that means a lot to them or that they're interested in. where you meet them in their special interest is magical when that happens. Does Henry do that for you?

Hannah

We have a little skill exchange actually because I've um talked to you a lot that Henry's concerns a lot about friendships. And we were talking in the car one day, and I was like, Well, you know, the thing is, Henry, like, let's talk about the things that you're really good at. And he's like, You know, I'm really good at robots. It's like, okay, cool. I said, what do you think I'm good at? He's like, you're really good at having friends. And I was like, okay, so here's the deal. You show me how to play Roblox. And I'll talk to you about being a friend. So we sit down, and you know, it is, you know, I know nothing about seeing him still. I'm really quite rubbish at it, and it's not my, you know, it's definitely not the way that I spend my time, but He has helped me understand at that time when I've shown an interest with him. And that we I often like him to be playing or watching screens like within the vicinity Of me, so I can kind of keep a bit of an ear. But I'm not always very present, you know, because you've got your time to do it. But when I did sit down and I could see what was happening in the chat. Function and what people were saying, and how it worked, like that meant so much because he could show me his thing that he was a master of. And it meant so much to him that I'd taken that time to do it. And then, you know, when I came to talking about him about, well, you know, your friends Don't like it that you're always the one to sort of demand what they do, and you don't like it when anyone else does anything else. Like, that was more respected because I'd taken the time to go into that world with him, if you feel and then he could come back into my world. And that that was really um yeah, that was really nice.

Mark

Yeah, I think... so me and Jay Started watching an anime series together, and that was incredibly important. Like, we watched it together, and there's 150 episodes, it's amazing. But we watched it sort of every night. We'd just watch a couple of episodes and it really brought us closer together. We'd talk about it. We'd have this common frame of interest that we wouldn't have had if we weren't just sitting and watching T V together. It was such a such a lovely connection that we have, and it still is. And I don't think he we'd be able to have that time if it was just us sitting, reading, or whatever the wholesome thing is that they assume that we should be doing with that time. I don't know what, you know, it wouldn't have happened. So I'm very thankful for that, I think. The other thing that we sort of briefly touched on is the importance of learning through screen time. because watching stuff online is a really great way of our kids being able to well, to indulge their special interests for a start. right, if you listen to anything that sort of Pete Warnby has has said or Kieran Rose has talked to me about, that monotropism, this desire For our autistic kids in particular to want to have a deep dive into a specific thing, not just surface interest on lots of different things. It's like, here's a thing I'm interested in. I want to know everything about that thing. So having access to screens really allows our neurodivergent brood to tunnel into s an area of interest and really pull out loads of information about it. Does Henry have that sort of...

Hannah

Yeah. I mean, he goes from special interest to special interest.

Mark

Yes.

Hannah

Currently, we uh the his gaming setup is uh epic and love to do lots of online research about the very latest. Gadget. And actually, I felt a little bit bad about this because I mean, tech is not my, it's not my thing that I do. You know, talk to me about cooking or do other stuff and I'll do that with the kids or make slime and very happy to do that. But my husband has to suffer all the like, oh my God, look at this It does that and it does this, but it is this real sense of like this is what I'm interested in. And if actually, if I did want to go and buy it, I could be like I'd probably ask Emmy to do the research for me. I totally am at working out the technical specification and learning how to do those things.

Mark

But that, you know, that there. Right, which is great. That sounds like really wonderful because obviously, as parents of neurodivergent kids, we worry about what they're gonna do in their future lives, right? You know, if they struggle at school, what kind of career are they gonna have? And it's like. look at those special interests, right? He may well go into that sort of really super technical realm. And he's got an interest in that now. You wouldn't pick that up from what he's doing at school. But he's learning about it because he's interested and he's following his passions. And yes, it might not be very interesting to anyone else, but The world needs people like that, you know?

Hannah

Yeah, yeah, you certainly do need this finer detail sort of person, don't you? I think the other thing in our house, the game changer for school, and I don't know if this resonates with other people, is we couldn't get Henry to pick up a pen, right? Just writing was not his thing.

Mark

Okay.

Hannah

And he has kind of one-to-one help in school. It's not his one-to-one, but uh the class one-to-one person spends a lot of time with him writing Writing out his work, and we're sort of obviously navigating up to secondary school in you know, in over just over years at times, we're quite worried about like, okay, how manageable is this going to be. And um I sort of I got a bit of a bee in my bonnet 'cause they were giving Henry  learning objectives about writing. I just don't ever think that my child's gonna get on board with writing. I just I can't see anything. So anyway, went off to the occupational therapy team, got an assessment, got them to kind of basically validate my kind of assumption that physically his hand grip, etc. , wasn't right up to it. So we got school to have allow him to use a laptop in class to record his ideas. This did two things. The first is it massively increased his sense of autonomy because he didn't have to do the kind of fine motor Skills to do the writing. And so he could use something which he's very interested and comfortable in recording his ideas. But even more interestingly, he started to take up writing again. Because we dropped the demand

Mark

Ah PDA. The joy of PDA. Amazing. It's like, right, I might give this writing shit a go then. Ah, turns out I'm an expert.

Hannah

Absolutely crazy. I like, you know, you couldn't script it. And then parents would be like, we want to show you this. I'm like, oh, that's obviously not Henry. He's like, this is his handwriting. And I'm like, that's just because you he doesn't have to do this anymore.

Mark

Yeah.

Hannah

So it is mind-blowing.

Mark

So you give him an alternative. That's so funny.

Hannah

Yeah, yeah. And that's a skill learned. And in that same vein. we said we'd t teach them to touch. They usually learn to touch type. So they've monetized this touch typing thing. So I think he offered him something like, I don't know, fifty, sixty quid if he got to so many words a minute, thinking that's taken months. He looks touch type online in about twenty one days, above the speed that either me or my husband can touch type. Really? Because he is so focused hyper focused on doing the programmes, wanting that reward. That's amazing.

Mark

That's worth sixty quid of anyone's money.

Hannah

Exactly. That's crazy. So and so like this whole idea That is a skill learned online, that is a skill for our future. And so, yeah, it's so there it is really interesting, you know. what they can do.

Mark

Yeah, especially with our kids who have that sort of issue with the executive function. I know Otto does a a lot. He finds it difficult to write. His motor functions aren't great. Uh so uh and he's also got a fear of failure. So he doesn't like writing stuff down. He finds that really difficult. So he he's got a Chromebook at school and he does bits on that, which is great because again, it frees him up to be able to express himself. a little bit more. But also he learns really well through apps. And there are so many wonderful apps out there now that can help our kids learn times tables and all of that stuff that is just kind of by rote, yeah? And reading as well. There there there's a couple of reading apps my kids were really into very early on. So my kids learned to read quite quickly compared to their peers because I think they got into the the apps side of things. And that's been really beneficial. I think possibly because if you're in a classroom, there's a lot of other stuff going on. Right? Your teacher is giving you that information. They might m not be giving it you in digestible chunks. It might be, you know, here are five things you need to do in this order. And then you've got the lights and all of the other overwhelm of the school. Whereas him in front of an app going, well, I know what's needed. And also, it's you sort of incentivize to get to the next level as well. So it's gamified. That's been really beneficial to my kids' learning.

Hannah

Yeah, we had exactly the same experience with Henry's reading. Couldn't get him to read. flashcards oh my god i'm still i'm so absolute nightmares of flashcards and homework and reading books and my my daughter however She loves reading. She will read with me when you know, she's bringing her reading book to me every day, Mummy, can we read? That was not my experience with him. I never get him to do it. And I was I remember saying to school, like, Do you want me to do reading or homework? I haven't got like the capacity to do both 'cause either either way, every single one is an hour's negotiation to even open the book, let alone do it. But they gave him a platform uh I don't know it was like a school-led thing, and actually the thing that moved the dial on Henry being able to read wasn't us doing flashcards and learning that way, it was the app. and this app completely changed his ability to read and was transformative because the demand was not a person asking him to spell out and sound out these letters. It was a machine. It was automatic.

Mark

Yeah, and I want to get better at this game.

Hannah

Exactly. It's quite amazing.

Mark

So screens are incredible Incredibly important to unlocking that, I think, and to taking you out away from the classroom. Yeah, you can do it in the classroom as well, but it doesn't have to be and that's I think really beneficial for our kids. One of the other major benefits I think for me anyway looking at my kids of screen time, particularly with video games actually, is that it's been really good for their self esteem, particularly Otto. because he's or he's super anxious and he's really struggled at at school a lot of the time. And I think that really feeds into his negative self image. And he's always sort of been quite down on himself. And it's heartbreaking to see. But when he plays a game and he gets good at a game his self esteem just blossoms, and it's amazing to see how he just becomes confident in stuff and he's he wants to show you doing things. So he absolutely loves Mario Odyssey. On the Switch. It's a wonderful game. And he now is like an expert at it. He knows everything about it. He knows all the secret levels, the hidden stuff. You know, and he just wants to show me all the time because he's played it so many times. Now, for someone who's got so much self-doubt and feels such a sense of failure about so many things in his life, to have mastered something. To the point that he's better than his brother, right? I've whispered that because his brother's next door and he won't want me to hear me saying that. But that he's he's mastered something is so important for him to know that he's got that in him

Hannah

Yeah. It's it's great that peer recognition as well though, isn't it? That like for the first time we ever did our sort of get together for neurodiverse families locally. One of the teenagers said to my neighbors, they they ended up playing their the Minecraft together in the corner And at the end of the kind of two hour session, okay, I was like, wow, like Henry is amazing at like Minecraft. I've never met someone his age who could do that. And he is literally puffed up. And that it was just lush to see some that sense of like one kid who was much older than him telling him that and that that sense of being good at something. I don't think we can underestimate that for many of our neurodiverse kids, potentially I don't know, this might be a sophomore, but for people for kids who are stubborn in school perhaps with more impulsivity, being good in that sort of environment isn't something that's often they're not that often that child profile of child. So actually being good and being recognized for that skill set is Just phenomenal. So so important.

Mark

Yeah, you know. I constantly think about how many sort of micro-criticisms our children get every day and how much they're not fulfilling other people's expect Expectations and getting things wrong, things that neurotypical kids don't even have to think twice about, you know, standing in a queue or, you know, not speaking out or sitting still, all of these things that our kids are constantly corrected for. that just chips away at their image of themselves and to be constantly feeling like they're messing up or just not good enough to find this thing, as you say, this thing that they've they've master is a really lovely thing and it's theirs. It's their thing. I I went to um some friends of ours had a barbecue and my kids are not their kids, so so we went. And one of the kids got out Mario Odyssey and I saw Otto just like just looked over and was like, all right, okay. So he went over there. And then he just like became super confident. He was like, I can show you where this secret level is, and I can get you this costume that you probably don't know exists. And then he went and did it. And by the end, there were kids crowded around him watching him do it. It's like, this is Otto. Otto is not holding court normally, and he was. And it was like, Oh, it's such a lovely thing to see.

Hannah

Yeah, and it's this is kind of back to this idea that For our kids who in social environments will struggle, like if you know, go to a friend's house, you know, I didn't envisage I'd always turn up with a tablet or some switch controllers, but actually, when you do turn up with that and you give them the tools, like it's much It's so much easier for them to do it. And we had this great example actually with, you know, Henry's always on the peripheral at school. He knows he is. He's not with the cool kids, not with the football gang. and um he got a uh he got in wanted a three D printer. So he's got a three D printer cl pa family put fair for his birthday, and he decided he wanted to sell his three D printed toys.

Mark

Okay.

Hannah

So he printed four hundred and fifty pounds worth of stock to take to the summer the PTA summer fair. Yes. And he ran a stall. Now at the PTA Fair, he was the most popular stool and he sold out with one hour and he had a queue going back for yeah, a queue going back from the bar. Like these these fidget, they're like these dragons, they're three printed dragons and 3D printed hexagon toys, fidget toys.

Mark

We've got all of them.

Hannah

Yeah.

Mark

They're amazing.

Hannah

But but finally, he had like realized that this is something he was good at. So yes, he was doing this on screen. But the act of printing them all, sorting them all out, putting them into boxes, getting his price type, setting his store up, that's an online Skill started translating to something. He's a business dude. He's a business dude.

Mark

He's like a tycoon walking around the schools. Like, what's your next wheeze, Henry?

Hannah

We said you can't get the money for yourself, you've got to give fifty percent of your profits. To the school PTA, like that's the deal. Like, you know, like, and he was like, what, 50%? Why would I do that? And it's like, I love this.

Mark

He was like, this is bullshit. I'm not turning up next year until they cut me at least 70% in. And then we'll talk.

Hannah

And he will negotiate.

Mark

Yeah, totally.

Hannah

But you know, at the end, like, school came over to him and that the teacher actually said to me, We couldn't be prouder of like Henry's ability to stand up behind a school with like twenty people queuing up and selling his wares. Like this is incredible.

Mark

I love it.

Hannah

It's just that, yeah, you've got to remember that things start here, but they might like translate, they might start on the screen but they may well be the kernels that translate to something offline. That that can be such a powerful reminder when you're stressed because your child's on hour five of a latest game or something.

Mark

Yeah, man. Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. One of the benefits of screen time for our kids that I think is important to focus on is the benefit for us as parents. Right? But absolutely worth paying attention to the fact that having our kids on screens Just buys us that little bit of time to get shit done, right? That little bit of quiet in your brain. Because if you've got multiple neurodivergent kids like I have, or even sort of, you know, just multiple kids, there is a lot going on. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of having to think about have you scaffolded something enough? What. What have we got for dinner? And like which I've got three versions of a dinner, just you know, just life, the hubbub of life, and being able to know that they're on a screen And that they're doing something that I approve of, and that I know that it's safe, and I know that actually it's good for them to regulate. Oh, sweet Jesus. Don't take that away from me, Hannah.

Hannah

Never. I mean, it is part of the sanity survival plan, isn't it? And you just need a bit of space. A bit of time to like recover from whatever situation you've lit, you know, because ultimately When you're taking your children out and about, or you're just trying to get them to school, or whatever you're trying to do, it is harder to do some of the very basic things. And therefore, as a parent, you really do need some downtime to have a cup of tea and to steal yourself for whatever is going to come next.

Mark

Yeah, you're right. I do have a little that that's my little joyous sometimes. I do just have. And what do I do with my downtime, Hannah? I look at my phone. I get on screen to myself. Do you know what I mean? Which is like a just zoom scroll for a little bit or I take the socials or whatever it is. It's still downtime. But it is, it regulates me as much as it regulates them, I'm sure.

Hannah

You really need this, like down time. I don't know what your kids are like, but before we kind of got into that habit of having always having that half-hour screen time. He'd be in your face from like you know 6:20 every morning, like right then. It's like, I just need to wake up. I'm quite a morning person, but like, you know, I just need like Ten minutes?

Mark

We've already established he needs twenty minutes. Give me half of that. Come on. I mean, without screens You'd have to get up a lot earlier with Henry. And I definitely would with Otto, because Otto gets up super early. and we can specify when he can actually access screen time on his tablet. So that's set and he will then spend a little bit of time at the start of the day watching a screen. crucially, I spend that time actually getting sleep. I don't I don't get much of it. But if I didn't have that, I would be up at six o'clock every morning with Otto demanding to be Entertained in some other way. And now, I don't care if people think that's lazy parenting, it's absolutely what I need at that point is to get enough sleep to be able to get through the day. If I didn't have that, I would be an absolute wreck every single day.

Hannah

And corresponding is the other end of the day, isn't it? So, Henry takes ages to get to sleep. Ages. Like bedtime is just some really long, drawn out thing. And um we use Audible story books and we use Calm. There's a quick calm with some sleep meditation for kids. Actually we've taken this to such an extreme. Henry now has a tablet, an old tablet, that's got all the apps that he's allowed to use at any time he ever wants to. So he can always access Audible, can always access Calm, can always access online chess. And like then he has another tablets more for gaming, and that is his like calming tube because it can be like 11:30 before Henry's asleep, probably and he's up at six in the morning. What is my down time? And so these, this wind-down function of the evening, you know, he's not watching it, he's listening Listening to it. But that has been a game changer actually in terms of regulation tools that you can access anytime. And also encourage it to be a bit more independent. Do you need me to come in and put that on? Well, could you just actually lean down and put that on?

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Otto is very similar. He has to listen to a podcast, the same podcast, Greaking Out, by the way. I don't know if you've ever heard of Greeking Out. National Geographic. It's Greek mythology, but told for kids. It's amazing. It's like one, it's a great one for car journeys because it's not awful. Some of the stuff I have to listen to is awful, and that's really good. So he listens to that every single night, and he must have listened to every single one. Hundreds of times over. But again, it's just that thing. You know, it's his brain, right? His brain's too busy. So at least if he's listening to something in the background. And it just makes a big difference to him getting to sleep. So again.

Hannah

I  read a fascinating thing that it takes neurodiverse brains twice as long as neurotypical brains. Forget to sleep, that's what we were told recently in section of pedery. Wow, so that's really also helpful for them to know that it's not just you, it's just your brain sometimes on your own. Yeah, yeah.

Mark

Absolutely,

Hannah

Yeah.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, it's neurodiversity champions now. These are the people and organizations that are doing wonderful things in the realms of neurodiversity. So firstly, Hannah, do you have any neurodiversity champions you want to bring to our attention?

Hannah

I absolutely do. Would love to represent a few local people in South Wales. So, two people on our current journey that I'd really like to give a shout-out. One is a guy called Ross Parsons who runs Have Fun Get Fit. Ross has a community gym and he specializes in working with neurodivergent kids and helping them do exercise for regulation. And he gets those kids and he's just wonderful. Like Henry's never been able to do PE in school. and he go up to his gym once a week and he gets us doing circuits together, some boxing and um he is so regulated after that session.

Mark

It's really good.

Hannah

It's incredible.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah

And you can find it. It's Have Fun, Get Fit. There's a Facebook page where you can put it in the show notes. But if you're in the South Wales area and you're looking for ways to regulate your child that's not on screens, I cannot recommend Ross more highly.

Mark

That sounds wonderful, because actually very often just getting doing something physical is so important to our kids.

Hannah

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mark

It's a bit of a trek for me, but otherwise I'd be down there with Otto.

Hannah

It's quite a trek for me, to be honest, but like if it even further for you, but yeah, I would drive a long way for those sessions, probably not. From where you are.

Mark

Yeah, if it's anyone's in South Wales, it's definitely worth a look at that. Okay, and who's the other one?

Hannah

Neither one is an organisation called Neurospicy Wings, founded by a psychologist. Called Sarah Radiff. So again, she's a neurodiverse herself, and she, although she practiced in the NHS, she offers like drama. a sort of drama club to neurodiverse kids and also one to one sessions for kids to think about like to I guess like talk about how they're feeling and again She has just got an amazing way with kids. We met her on our NHS route, and it was her session of bringing the neurodiverse kids together. And Henry was like, Is everyone in this room like me? And I was like, Yes, darling. And he was like, Well, all of them I was like, Yeah. And it just made me think. most of the time, my kids are the odd person out in the room, but not the majority. And it was so like this was an NHS Big Emotions course. but it was so powerful. And so I've kept in touch with her because Henry, like we've done so many interventions that I'm sure you have, and most of them you're dragging your child to. And this one, Henry, was like, We've got to go every week. I really good. And so we have gone back to see her after the sessions and She's currently helping us on where we are in our journey as well. So a big shout out to Neurospicy Wings.

Mark

Neurospicy Wings, amazing. Yes, I'll put a link to both of those Neurodiversity Champions in the show notes.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic Wins.

Mark

Tiny epic winds now. These are the things that for a neurotypical family probably wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. They're mundane, but to us neuroshambolic families, they are epic wins and it's always worth giving a shout out to some of these. I had a tiny epic win today, literally today, and it also sort of is loosely related to screen time, loosely It was Jay's birthday not too long ago, and we asked him what he wanted to do on the weekend. He was like, Oh, can I invite two friends round for a play date? And I was like Okay. I mean, he doesn't he doesn't have many play dates for numerous reasons. When he was at primary school, he didn't really have many friends. Since he's been in this specialist provision, he's now got like two really good friends, and it's absolutely lovely to see. And they they get on really well. So he invited them over. So I was like, great. Tam took Otto and India out of the house. So it was just them. And they had a gaming session in the house. And I just I was available as a butler. I gave him a bell, and if he rang a bell, I had to appear and look after everything, right? Which he loved. So like I'd made them homemade pizza and I got loads of snacks and I just sort of went away. But The epic win is that he was so happy with his friends in his house. They were just the way they were engaging with each other and communicating, the way they would Just talk over each other. And you know, just like the way that neurodivergents communicate with each other without any sort of standing on ceremony or any sort of hurt feelings, just this collision. of personalities in a really wonderful way. And I just sort of listened to it from the next room and I just my heart just filled with joy to to hear him like that with his with two of his friends because it's been a long road since he was in burnout and he had didn't have any friends and he didn't want to be with any people at all to this now. And that was facilitated by the fact that we're playing a game together as well. So you've taken away this like we're not just sat in a room having a chat because that would be weird. So the the fact that the screen time actually helped to facilitate that, and I just got to hear them laugh and giggle and talk all over all over each other. It was really wonderful.

Hannah

Nothing more satisfying than the pleasure derives from your kids having a nice time with their friends. And you know, it's difficult. Yes.

Mark

And I thought it wasn't going to be possible. I will say there was a time where he just went, right, I'm going to my room now. And then he just went up into his room and I went up and went, How long are you planning to be? It was like, About an hour. It was like, dude. They're not here for that much longer. Is it a bit much now? And he's like, Yeah, my social battery is drained. So I went down and I told his friend and I said, Yeah, he said his social batteries drained. And one of his friends went, That's my line So I love the fact that it wasn't a thing. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't seen as odd. It was just like, they get it. And it wasn't... Oh, it was just yeah, just him finding his own little neurodivergent tribe fills me with absolute joy, so it was really nice.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip!

Mark

Okay, what are the flip moments now? These are the things that our neurodivergent children will do or say that will completely bewilder and baffle and befuddle us. Have you got any what the flip moments for us, Hannah?

Hannah

I was overhearing a phone call with my Henry and his friend the other day talking about Roblox, honestly. And um it said Roblox has got a dating app. These guys are turning away from their community

Mark

I think that's a valid point. Does it anybody have a dating app on Roblox?

Hannah

He said, who wants to go on Roblox to date? If he wants to date, surely you just meet up in person. I mean, Roblox is gonna you know, it's good for some things, but it's it's not good for doing things like meeting people and having a kiss.

Mark

I love it. He's not wrong.

Hannah

He's not wrong. At the time it was like, let's continue seeing what else that Wow, this is the in-depth chat.

Mark

Oh, he's now yeah, he's done some deep research into this, you know that.

Hannah

But yeah, I was very yeah. Tickled me that they were talking about this so profoundly.

Mark

I've got a good one from Jay recently, as always. He said to me, I can't even remember what I related to, but he went, to quote a great man, I don't have eyes in the back of my head, I have eyes to the back, side, front, and diagonals of my head. And I went, who said that? And he went, me. I'm quoting myself. He's also never said that before until that moment. To quote a great man. Start for any sentence Especially when it's your own

Hannah

Brilliant

Mark

And the only other one I got from this week is one from India who I can't again, I can't remember the context, but I had to write it down. She went All humans are creepy. Except for me. I'm fabulous. Yep. Yes, you are. I mean, you have essentially just called me creepy, by the way, because I count as one of all humans, but fine. At least you see yourselves as fabulous. It's fine. It's fine. Okay, that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Thank you so much for coming and talking to me about this topic of the week. I really appreciate it. Also, thank you to Neuroshamblers for listening and for sharing and spreading the word and for saying nice things on the socials and leaving Lovely reviews, thanks for that. And if you want to check us out on the socials, we are on Facebook, Reddit And TikTok. If you want to email us with any topic suggestions or any neurodiversity champions of your own or tiny epic wins, I love to hear those kinds of things from you. So email me at hello at neuroshambles. com. Other than that, I think that's pretty much it. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.