Holidays | Dr Hildi Mitchell

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode three of Neuroshambles. Welcome back. If you've listened to the first two, and if you haven't, you should listen to the first two. They're great. This particular episode is going to follow the similar format in that we're going to be meeting a new guest Another parent of neurodivergent kids, and we're also going to be learning a bit more about their setup. Then we're going to be discussing the topic of the week, which rather fittingly is about holidays. Because I've just come back off my holiday with the hooligans, and my guest has just come back from their holiday So we've got lots to discuss there and all the sort of the faff and rig bar roll of a holiday with neurodivergent kids. After that, we're going to be doing the It's Not All Rubbish section, where we're going to be looking at Neurodiversity Champions. We're also going to be looking at some tiny wins. There's one of my own that I'm particularly keen to talk about. And also the What the Flip section where your kids make you wonder The flip with some of their behaviours or the things that they say. So that's what we've got coming up. Without further ado, let's crack on.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

Okay. So it is my absolute pleasure to introduce our guest for this week. It is a Doctor Hildi Mitchell. Welcome to the show. How are you doing, Hildi Hildi or doctor? I don't know. Should I call you Doctor? Does that feel a bit formal?

Hildi

Doctor Hildi. Doctor Hildi's a bit formal. Yeah. Hildi will be fine.

Mark

Thank you. Thank you. I felt like I needed permission for that So, yes, welcome, welcome to the pod. Thanks for joining us. So, obviously, with any of our guests, it's Useful to know your setup and kind of what your experiences of neurodivergency are. So talk to me about your personnel. Who have you got there?

Hildi

Oh, our team. Our NeuroSpicy team.

Mark

Nice.

Hildi

Our team. Yes, we had a long conversation. My children are a bit older than some of the children, I think, of the guests you've had. So I have um Polly, who's twenty two, who has been diagnosed with various sorts of mental illness throughout her time. and has recently been put onto the Autism Neurodiverse Pathway with questions about autism. In some ways I kind of feel a bit stupid for not having noticed things because as soon as that was mentioned, I've started to go back and go, ooh, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense, that makes sense But she's now on that pathway and that's opened up a whole load of rich things to talk about with her in terms of sort of helping and supporting her. So she's currently presenting as agoraphobic And doesn't leave the house at all. And then Elsie is sixteen and going on thirty five probably could run the the run the country, I think. She's mature beyond her years. And she has a diagnosis of autism that's she's had in the last year. But with her it was it was really clear from basically the minute she was born she was born at home in our bedroom and from about, I don't know, about twenty minutes after she popped out, it's very clear that she was a child with very strong Responses to the world around her.

Mark

Right, expecting.

Hildi

So she um I tried she was my second child, so you know, you think you know what you're doing.

Mark

Yeah, but you've also got something to compare it to, I guess.

Hildi

Yeah, exactly. So I was trying to feed her, and I thought I was going to have this 24 hours of serenity. In fact, she was going to be called Eve. which I had as this kind of like really serene, lovely name. And within about an hour or so, I was like, we can't call her Eve, John, we can't. This is John is husband and father to the girls. And he went, No, we can't. She's not an Eve. So she didn't have her name for a while because she so clearly wasn't an Eve. She was Red faced and screechy and could not be satisfied. And then and then I think he committed the middle class crime of going to get her some SMA to feed her. And gave her a bottle, and she drank down this bottle, burped in a very unladylike fash and then went to sleep, and we said, Oh, she's an Elsie and she was named after two cantankerous old grandmothers that we've known And it suited her entirely. So we always had this sense that she was somebody that for whom the world was not really to her taste, you know? From she was uncomfortable in it, and then she then she sort of developed this She had a very rich language, which made me kind of think maybe not autism.

Mark

So, what sort of age was that?

Hildi

probably from the from the age of about two or three.

Mark

Oh, wow.

Hildi

She she spoke, but she spoke but but she was very she had a very odd choice of words. She'd hear a word and she would use it. And it and it there was always something that was both incredibly interesting but also slightly weird about how she would use it. And the more that I now know about the kind of language acquisition and language as a as in autism, the more I kind of realize that that probably was an indicator that I didn't really quite pick up on. But she we used to always comment on the way she used language. It was very expressive but very unique.

Mark

Yes, I think Jay is very much like that. That, like I said, he sounds like a Victorian landowner.

Hildi

Yes, she was like, but it's all very old-fashioned and very precise.

Mark

Yes, yes, but just sort of not really out of context. Do you know what I mean? When everyone's being a bit informal, and I mean, he'd be great at a dinner party if only he ate food or could bear people.

Hildi

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So obviously, when we're talking about holidays, I want to sort of I don't have any horror stories. I think, you know, with some of the things that I talk about with our guests, I've got some like some proper war stories to tell. But I don't feel like I have that with holidays. And I think the reason is because I know my kids so well, I did I deliberately avoid holidays I know they're going to hate or I know that's going to trigger them. But what I wanted to talk about in this particular episode are the lengths that we go to to kind of smooth over those potential triggers and all of the additional things that we have to factor in to stop those holidays becoming absolute nightmares Because it's something that for neurotypical families is joyous and easy because everyone's relaxed and everyone's looking forward to it and everyone's excited. But obviously, in our setup. things are different. You've got to manage it in a very different way depending on your particular uh situation. So, um I mean, I I guess you're you're wrestling with the issue of agoraphobia I mean, has that always presented itself?

Hildi

It's it hasn't so it's presented before as sort of so um social phobia, emetophobia, you know, all those kind of things. You know, the w one of the worst things about holidays, I think, going abroad is the kind of airport The airport of this kind of environment that is so out of your control. You have to be in a certain place at a certain time. You've got to only carry certain things with you. The airport's really difficult. And the last the the probably the really the earliest sign of Polly kind of tipping into sort of agoraphobia was at an airport experience where she just didn't cope at all.

Mark

Yeah.

Hildi

And She I think she was about twelve, so she wasn't that old to be on her own in the airport. And she just stormed off and disappeared, and we couldn't find her anywhere in this airport.

Mark

And I remember being Gatwick. Airports, anyway.

Hildi

Yeah, we just didn't know where she was. And you've got this kind of panic about not knowing where your child is, who's kind of young and vulnerable, and obviously in a very anxious state. And also, you're trying to get your flight.

Mark

Yes.

Hildi

So you've got the. The kind of gate numbers coming up, and you're like, Oh, God, what are we going to find this joy? Oh, you know, so that was what I'll probably worst airport experience.

Mark

What did you do then? I mean, how do you Was there an announcement on the I think John?

Hildi

John, who was usually the more calm of the two of us in these situations, I think just went and kind of just calmly looked for her and left me with Elsie. But I was in a horrible panic.

Mark

Yeah, of course.

Hildi

And he was kind of going, Well, you know, if we don't go, we don't go. And he's right.

Mark

You know, you're going to leave a child behind, are you?

Hildi

No, exactly. And I think this but when that's happening for the first time, you're kind of sort of terrified. I think I was talking to I was talking to the girls actually about airports earlier and that LC we've we've not really struggled with LC in airports. And I think It's partly because one of her best and most beloved distraction techniques is shopping And it doesn't even need to be for her. So it's brilliant on holiday. So and airports are full of shops, aren't they? So it's it's it's amazing. They're also they nearly always have a Lego shop, which is, you know, buy some Lego and then you're kind of set. But she doesn't even need to buy something for herself. So this most recent holiday, I ended up with a pair of AirPods because she decided that I should have some AirPods so we could share watching a movie on the plane. So as long as we can shop Yeah, we're okay.

Mark

Okay. I was very anxious about going to the airport. As I mentioned in the last episode, actually And Belle suggested Gatwick special assistance, and it was a godsend. Like, thank you, Belle. Thank you, Gatwick. It was amazing. It was so good. Yeah, because we sort of turned up and you you've got a separate check-in. So there's a massive queue when you turn up for for we were flying EasyJet. EasyJet were very good actually as well, because I phoned up for the special assistants, we kind of booked it with Them. And when you book it, they say, Do you do you want to board the plane first or last? I was like, Oh, that's a good question. I genuinely don't know what I'd What I'd prefer. You know, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Yeah, it's one of those two options is the correct one. We decided first and we got on first and just get settled in, just give them like screen time immediately.

Hildi

Yeah.

SECTION INTRO

All parenting all parenting rules are out the window.

Mark

Just let's just get everyone calm. You know, obviously we're not normally the kind of parents to just stick our kids on iPads and switch Witches and stuff, but for this, for the duration of this, we were because we were kind of trying to be respectful of everyone else on the plane as well and ourselves. So we got in and jumped the queue, which was amazing, made the kids feel very special and and then got settled in. And that was That was a great experience. But the other thing is that there's a space with special assistants at Gatwick that you can sit that is kind of quiet and calm and away from the main hubbub, which I didn't know about, and it was brilliant because we Could just they could just sort of sit around a table and fizz, basically, is what they do: twitch and fidget and stuff. Um, but they're not like hugely triggered by all the other stuff that's going. On because as soon as you go into the main airport, then it's just carnage.

Hildi

Yeah, that space. I mean, when it's busy, is you know, if you've got children that are triggered by kind of noise and heat and everything. It's just really difficult. We got held up coming back from Lanzarosi last week.

Mark

Oh, right.

Hildi

And it was we got held up. It was like a comedy of errors. So we got onto this plane where the air conditioning wasn't working. Because of something. And then, because it was so hot on the plane, the airbridge locks and they couldn't get it off. So we were stuck on this hot plane. And in the end, they got us off the plane. And Elsie is very sensitive to heat. So she was sitting there sort of dripping with sweat, and she also had somebody behind her talking about because it was a day before GCSE results talking about not getting back for GCSE results. And she was then starting to respond to this other lady's panic about the GCSE results. So she was getting really wound up And I was I was really impressed. I mean, maybe this is a bit of hope for people who have neurodiverse children. I mean, these were all her triggers But she was able to hold it together. You know, she was safe enough with us.

Mark

And how does she regulate in that in that situation?

Hildi

She well, we got her loads of water. We when we got but we got off the plane because they took us all off, but I think I might have asked for us to get off if it had got any hotter And then she went shopping again with John. So she went back into the shops and and then put you know, plugged herself in. So plugged herself into her AirPods and her screen and, you know, like totally went into it. And that I, you know, I've I've I am not a anti-screen person and anti-AirPod, you know, you know, when they're little It's sort of acceptable now to give them ear defenders and things like that. But at seventeen you're not going to wear ear defenders. At twenty two you're not going to wear ear defenders. But you put your your headphones in, you go into your podcast, you go into your video, these things are really calming. And my girls have sort of developed their own techniques for doing that. So I look at them and I think What we're going to be late. Why are you watching that video? But for them, they're watching that video to calm themselves to the situation where they cannot be late. You know, it's taken a big sort of parental shift for me and my understanding of it. So yeah, so that so that that whole airport. And the other the other thing is, you know, where I'll kind of probably get onto in a minute is we sort of accidentally ended up of going to the same place for the last twenty at least twenty years.

Mark

When you say accidentally, there has to be an element of selection There was a lot of choice actually because we bought a time share.

Hildi

So there was like, you know, 20 grand's worth of choice because we actually paid that money. But we went when Polly was a toddler. with extended family to this tourist resort in Nanzarosi. It's called Club La Santa, and they It was set up in 1983 by a Dane who wanted to get into the kind of tourist market in Nanzarotti. They were giving like they wanted to kind of promote tourism. And he had this idea that he would set up not just a sort of Sun and Sea holiday, but it would be Sun, Sea and Sports, and this would be his USP. So we set up this place. It's basically like a little bit of Copenhagen in Lanzarote So it's very Dani it's very peculiar, it's very Danish, it's very uh it's it's very sort of clean and organised and um and we we went there with our extended family and I loved it. I mean, I love sport, I love swimming, I love aerobics. And what was lovely is it has so you can before you go, you can download the programme for the next two weeks.

Mark

It's like a bit like butlin's But do you have to book onto stuff?

Hildi

Yeah, but it's really easy to book onto it. So you used to have to go to sports booking, which is like go and queue up and book into it and get a little slip with what you've booked. Now it's even better for Autistics, because you've got an app. You can look onto it on an app. And so I'm so Tuesday morning, I mean, this has been the case for 20 years. On a Tuesday morning, 8 a. , it's the half marathon. On a Wednesday morning at eight AM it's the mini try. On at three o'clock on a Sunday, it's bolas and egg throwing at the beach

Mark

Yeah, so you've been there for 20 years. So you went with you with Extended Family the first year.

Hildi

Yeah, and we just loved it. It was easy. What was easy was like, you know, we can all do the things that we love there. And we well, so we started going there and then it became like there's no way we're ever going anywhere else with these girls.

Mark

So you go to the same place every year?

Hildi

Yeah. Same room, please.

Mark

Yeah, I was going to say, because you mentioned when we first spoke about this, it was the same room. Is that by design? Do they just have it like Well, I guess it's a timeshare, right? So it's that's it's a time share, yeah.

Hildi

So we have the same room. So but we recently bought a few years ago we bought we decided we'd buy another week. So we have two weeks in three five seven B And we decided we wanted another week so we had more flexibility about which weeks we went, but we could we had to just buy what was available. So we bought 10B. So we've got a week in 10B, which is in a different part of the apartment at the hotel. And And it's completely different. It's like it has different sounds, it's different smells.

Mark

Was that okay?

Hildi

It's a it's more stressful. And we went this time and Elsie was definitely dysregulated in 10B to what she was in three five seven B. It's nearer the restaurants and stuff, so it's noisier, it smells of food. got a different energy about it. So it was it's noticeable that those even on the same resort, a different room has a different feel about it. Um and she was She found it she wanted to come home this week, this time in Texas.

Mark

Oh, really?

Hildi

I wanted to go home, yeah.

Mark

When she had said home, was she talking about the other flat there

Hildi

She was talking about home, home.

Mark

She's home home.

Hildi

I think. Yeah. And then two weeks later, we were in 357B and she I said she said, I love it here, I love it. And I said, I nearly booked you a flight home last week. And she went, I know, but I was just, I was, what did she say? I was just adjusting, she said. I was adjusting to being here. And I think that's a That's that's the thing that our younger children can't really articulate, that kind of process of shifting.

Mark

I remember um I can't remember who told me, but someone said that if you go on holiday with neurodivergent kids, you need to kind of have an extra three days. To get people to kind of get used to it and to bed in a little bit. So, what we we booked 10 days in an Airbnb. So, again, similar. Because it was an Airbnb, we could look at the website, and there were loads of photos of everything to expect, and we kind of knew that. And you could even see a photo of the host So that was that was quite good. So we booked for 10 days again so that we could have that time to bed in. And also, like, we couldn't like I can't imagine us booking in Into one of those like a resort hotels with loads of people, and and like that would that I that just wouldn't work for us at all. Like Jay, in particular, would be incredibly dysregulated. By it, because he doesn't really like a lot of people, so that would be quite triggering for him. So we deliberately booked an Airbnb, which was sort of A little like apartment in a block of six apartments with a shared pool. So we got to the Airbnb and We kind of unpacked, and he got a separate room because, again, we've learned from experience that he needs a different space to be in. He doesn't need to be like that far away from us or anything like that, or even particularly kind of sheltered from the noise of us, but he needs a space that he can call his own Own. And we got there, and he was like, This is your room, and he unpacked. And then, within 11 minutes, and I timed it, within 11 minutes, Jay said. This holiday isn't living up to expectations. And I was like, this is going to be a long holiday if he doesn't get on board with this at all. And fortunately uh 'cause I'd actually I then had to go and do the shop, the food shop, which is in itself a massive challenge, um, which we'll get on to. But uh the but while I was doing that, Jay and Otto both went in the swimming pool. And they love water. I think it's definitely a sensory thing for both of them. They love being in water. Jay spends a lot of time under the water To the point you think he may have drowned. But he's always come back up so far. So it's definitely a sensory thing for him. And so when I came back from the food shop, he'd completely kind of regular Regulated himself, and he was like, I actually quite like it. And now it's like, Thank you. It's good. It took us a little while to get into the rhythm of it because, again, everything is different, isn't it? Right.

Hildi

Yeah, I mean that every that everything is different and that that I think, you know, like Elsie's saying I needed to sort of, you know, make this transition even to something I know well I think for those kids that are you know, where you're going somewhere different I mean, she she's she's always she starts packing about three weeks, four weeks before we go And starts worrying about what she's going to take, what she's going to wear, what she's going to do, and this kind of like imagining herself doing all of the things that she does. That whole packing thing is really stressful because there is this kind of sense of expectation that, you know, what's it going to be like? Who am I going to be when I'm there?

Mark

Okay. So it's more out of anxiety than anticipation?

Hildi

Yeah, it's not it's not an excitement, it's a worry. You know, we had to we had to do um a lot of shopping, a lot of you know, like I've got these shorts, but I'm not sure they're going to be right. You know, I think You can't I mean, with the packing and stuff, I mean, with Polly once, we went to we went to Bournemouth to see our in laws and she was highly anxious about leaving. She didn't want to go. She was she I can't remember the exact context for the anxiety at that point, but she was getting into her highly anxious period And she was going, I'm not going, I'm not going. And we were like, We have to go, um, and you're only like to eleven, twelve, we can't leave you on your own. Um and So in the end she packed. So she said, I've packed and we off we went. And when we got to my brother in law's, we were gone it was like July, June, July. We'd gone for like a beach weekend. They have a beach out in Bournemouth And we got there and she'd packed one jumper and a toothbrush or something. That was it. But that's nothing else in the bag.

Mark

I always have to check. I always have to check mine. It has to pass master because I know that they would like Je Jay always forgets pants. Doesn't feel the need to I mean, to be honest, he would rather not wear pants, but

Hildi

Um, you know, Elsie che Elsie Elsie likes three pairs of pants a day, so we were going for um just over two weeks, we were going for sixteen days, and um so she needed to pack thirty-two pairs of pants. Well, who has thirty-two pairs of pants? Nobody. So we had to go and buy pants. And I said, There was a washing mach there's a laundry. I'll go I'll go and wash your pants and um she said, No, I need to take thirty two you know, she needed to take all these pants and all these socks So that she felt like, I've got all my pants and I've got all my van socks because she only wears van socks with a load. You know, and that became quite a thing for her. Like, she had So Po I never have any worries about Elsie taking appropriate stuff, but Polly, God knows what she's she'd probably pack now now she'll probably pack a crochet hook and a you know, and a jumper or a poncho and that'd be it.

Mark

Well, you know, well J I mean Jay was particularly excited about So he packed very early and was really kind of clear about what he wanted to pack and what he wanted to take. Otto had his own bag and it It was like full, completely full. But Tam was looking after his packing, so they sorted that out between them. And we got onto the plane. and Otto was sitting next to me and I went, What's your what's in your bag? Have you got anything that you want to um kind of get out on the plane? And he went, Yeah And I opened the bag and it was full of one thing, which was a massive plushy toy that he'd squished into this bag. It's like, I'm having to jettison stuff I can't take with me. And he's got the He's massive pussy with him. It's like, fine, just get on with it. That's okay. Jay was very, very keen to go. So there wasn't sort of it wasn't anxiety for him. He really wanted to go. He was really excited. They all were. We kind of ramped like built up, you know, over the the kind of weeks ahead of it because we wanted to make sure that they were kind of excited to go and that we were trying to get because I I knew that Otto would be anxious about the flight in particular. So, I wanted to kind of smooth all that out. So, the morning that we had to we so we to get to the airport itself, we chose to get a cab because I just did not fancy getting A train with all of them getting a train with this anxiety and with this excitement, and it would just just the the the thought of being in public with that level of of dysregulation does not fill me with joy. So it it was expensive, but it was definitely worth it. And it made My kids feel like rock stars being driven to the airport. So that was quite cool. They were really excited about the fancy car that they got to go in. So that was really nice. And took away some of the you know, potential anxiety. But we had to get the get it at five in five thirty in the morning, which meant we had set the alarm at five o'clock. And it that's already a very, very early start for me. I'm not comfortable at that time Time in the morning. But I was awoken at 4:45 on the dot with a light being flicked on by Jay. Who was dressed in his full outfit for holiday, which I had not seen, which was a Hawaiian shirt and these massive wide brimmed sun hat, which was actually an Easter bonnet that had had the ribbon and the chickens removed from the rim. Right. And he was really grumpy and because we weren't up yet. And he told us off for not being ready. And it genuinely felt like we were being evicted by the man from Del Monte It was just like such a rude awakening. But then Otto comes in and he's like the opposite. He doesn't want to go. At all. He's anxious now, asking loads of questions and going, I want to stay here. I don't want to go on holiday. So now it's just like, well, I'm awake now. Let's this is happening. You know, let's just strap in and deal with it. So that was the start of the holiday.

Hildi

Bless him.

Mark

But like I say, once we bedded in and we got there and everyone was kind of, you know, comfortable with the routine, it was great Um and there weren't too many people, that was the thing, uh, from our perspective. So the swimming pool was a huge win. Having said that, within minute there was there was there were other families there Right. So there's um so there's obviously uh wi it's it's it's a block of apartments and they all share one pool. And there was a Dutch family with their uh quite obviously neurotypical child. There. You can spot them a mile off, can't you?

Hildi

It's bloody neurotypical. Exactly.

Mark

And the boys went in the pool, and they're splashing around and basically being absolute maniacs because they're. Excited, and I could sense the other family tensing up. And within five minutes, they'd been told off for being too noisy and not staying to their bit of the pool Which, you know, it's like, oh God, this is like the first day of the holiday. And And e ev basically then a as the holiday progressed, every we I'd see the kind of this Dutch family appear and look at the pool and see we were there and then Just turn around and go back into their apartment. And it made me feel bad for the first day. And then I was like, oh, you know, it's up to you. And then, amazingly, they left, and the people that replaced them in their flat, I couldn't believe this, was an entirely deaf family. And it was like that was an absolute dream because my kids could be as noisy as they wanted. It was unbelievable

Hildi

That's the dream. It was.

Mark

And their kids were absolute nut jobs as well. So it's amazing.

Hildi

That's the perfect pairing on holiday, isn't it?

Mark

It was. I don't know if you can. You can select that in Airbnb to book at a time with fellow disruptive families.

Hildi

Well, we you having a time share where we are. The the other the other benefit is that um we we see the same families year after year after year.

Mark

Okay, that's nice.

Hildi

So we've kind of got to know other families and So, you know, that worry about like who are they going to play with, and are they going to upset people? You know, like you've said, you know, you That's that's all got well, well, part of it is that they've already upset half of the people twenty years ago, so they're not going to play with them. But you know that, that's all right. But then there's there's families that we've sort of got to know and um so Elsie's Elsie has a really, really good friend there in at Club and Centre, who we see now not women there as well. They they live in um they live in out of London and their daughter's doing a um she's doing medicine at Sussex so we see them quite a lot oh wow that's lovely and and so she's got this lovely kind of relationship with the son of this family And this year was was so, so lovely. You know, Polly Elsie's got her diagnosis and so she's like open about that. She's like, This is me, this is who I am. And um, and not and not apologetic about it. Um, and then the son of this family, he's he's dyslexic, so he's got, you know, his own kind of, you know, challenges, particularly around sort of um organization and school and stuff. And then he's also recently come out as gay as well. So they've both got this shared experience of having masked people, not being authentic, and now they're both like this year, like free and themselves and see seeing them in the karaoke doing Barbie Girl was just like I just kind of rolled back to these two year olds that were in Playtime, you know, kids' club, and now they're you know, they they in that place, in that space, they were so confident and so lovely Comfortable to be themselves, you know. They know the karaoke, they know the disco. This is not a scary kind of like, oh, well, are we getting it right place? This is a, we know what the disco at Club at Santa is like, we know who's going to be there, we know. We know it. We're safe, you know? That's amazing.

Mark

And you found that essentially the f you found that place essentially the first kind of family abroad holiday you went on.

Hildi

Sort of, yeah.

Mark

Like you haven't had any disaster disasters. That's kind of what I like then and when you went somewhere and it's like this is not gonna work.

Hildi

No, we've we've we've had we've had a few of those, but we've had our own we have had disasters even there, you know. I mean we went one year with some friends, so you it's like um It's an apartment hotel, so you can you can get like half board or you can do self-catering. Obviously, with NeuroDiverse, you're going to go self-catering because you're going to be in as much control as you exactly And I remember going one year with some with a another family and they um they came at the same time as us. And the the mum, Teresa, she said to me, she's so I'm not doing any self-catering. When I'm on holiday, I'm not going to do any cooking. We're going to eat out. And I was like, oh my God, that would just be a dream. So we did eat out with them a few times, but every single night that we ate out. Before we went out, I went back to the apartment and cooked pasta and pesto or marmite and toast for my girls to be sure they'd eaten something before we went out. And You know, you'd have these kind of like, you know, awful kind of meltdowns around food because you were going somewhere different. And we we would go somewhere different and we would kind of like think, Oh, they need to eat it like a proper meal. I mean, now that I'm my age and my kids are there, I now I don't care I don't care. So, Elsie, this time on holiday you know, she orders her her meal and it's, you know, uh canary and potatoes, chips and garlic bread. You know, a a triple carb. diet with a side order of motion. It's fine.

Mark

So this this because we don't we don't go out to restaurants. It's not a thing as a family that we do Because the kids are all over the place. It's their ADHD more than their autism that kind of represents itself, presents itself there. So and I and I'm s hyper aware of that, just me being me, hyper aware of how we present in those sort of situations. But it was one thing that I wanted to do while we were we went to Greece. I wanted to go to a Greek Taverna as a family and just have a meal 'cause I wanted I didn't want to just obviously you get all your safe foods and you cook everything, but I just wanted to go out and experience something Greek.

Hildi

And so we sort of yeah, I had to fight for it.

Mark

Because there was a lot of resistance, but even from Tam, who doesn't like that kind of thing as well. But eventually, they all relented that we were, and we made basically we're going out for a fancy meal. It wasn't a fancy meal, it was a roadside to burner. But to all intents and purposes, it was a fancy meal, and it was It was a joy. It was an absolute I mean, we were they they behaved absolutely like as expected, but they all invested in it. So like Jay put on like a shirt and he did the top button up and like seeing him being presented with the food with the food menu and he'd like give a little nod to the waiter as he did it. Like, I don't know where he's seen that, but it was hilarious. And then, like, to try, he found a new thing he liked. He found like this just little, it was a very simple sort of tomato, chopped tomato salsa thing. And he loved that. So he was just like, that was only supposed to be put on your bread, but he ordered more just a spoon into his face. It was like, fine, you crack on Um, and you know, they didn't they didn't really eat much of the food. So I ended up eating a lot of meat for the team.

Hildi

Oh, yeah.

Mark

Which is maybe why I chose it I don't know. But it was actually a really lovely experience. So, how do you kind of handle it? Because obviously, you're self-catering. You still need to get the food, right? So, you still need to go to the supermarket. And find the Greek equivalent of what you would normally have at home, or the sort of the Canarian equivalent of what you would have at home.

Hildi

We know where the Liddle is in Narasifi. Don't worry, it's fine. We go to Liddle.

Mark

We've got it all sorted. See, it was a mine.

Hildi

We know the Liddle. We know we even know the Middle Isle.

Mark

You're going to drive it by a drill while you're on holiday and it's all sort of.

Hildi

Yeah, maybe an inflatable canoe, you know. Yeah, because I had the

Mark

So I was I had to navigate Google Translate, uh which has got uh I don't know if you've used that, uh but it's got a camera. Uh the the camera so you can you can translate 'cause Greek is not even close to being a a language I can guess at. Um, but obviously I need to make sure it's got none of the things that are gonna be triggering for any of the kids, 'cause they're all very, very individually in terms of what they want. Um and again I'm I'm also having to like cook because I obviously cook everything um uh from scratch, so I'm end up having to make cook pizzas In an oven where I don't have a rolling pin, because what Airbnb has a rolling pin? So I'm using a watermelon to roll out my meat today.

Hildi

No, you don't use a watermelon, use a wine bottle.

Mark

No, 'cause I tried that and it was because it was in the fridge, it was sticking to the dough and the watermelon was actually it's my top tip, is watermelon is actually quite good in the end Um, but again, so I've got to adapt to like two forks and a spatula and like like a a really poorly equipped kitchen and having to cook everything from scratch and trying to make it as close to normal as poss And then I kind of realised that this isn't a holiday for me at all. It's so much more stressful.

Hildi

It's so much more stressful. 'Cause you're basically you're going on holiday to somewhere new, like you say, with a very poorly equipped kitchen, an oven that you don't understand, and the instructions are in Spanish or Greek or whatever. And trying to make something exactly the same as you would be making at home. And you think, I could make this at home so much more easily. Why are we going anywhere? Why are we even here?

Mark

Having said that, we take Marmite and Pesto with us.

Hildi

You know, you pack exactly the same stuff. So in my suitcase, I've got my sun cream and my Marmite and my pesto.

Mark

I could have done all of that If Otto hadn't have taken his plushie, they could have all gotten a bag.

Hildi

They could have taken the Mar Mike.

Mark

I'm going to have taken a rolling pin

Hildi

Well, we made a list after Club of the Sanctuary after the first club. We have a little note I've had a little notebook. I probably could find it actually. A little notebook, and it has a list of things that you need to take when you go. So it has Marmite Pesto, cheese grater, because they don't have cheese graters, so you can't grate the cheese to the required consistency to go on the pasta.

Mark

Is that a thing for you? Because I just I discovered that this weekend. I went camping with Jay and I got some grated cheese and he was like, I said, Do you like this cheese? I was like, Yeah, it's grated in the wrong way. Well, since when has that thing?

Hildi

We haven't we haven't had that so much, but yeah, that that you cut up.

Mark

So you take a cheese grater on holiday with you?

Hildi

Well, we used we did. They've started having cheese graters now, so we haven't had to take one. We cross cross classes.

Mark

I was going to say, do they let you take that on the plane? Because that could be like a very obscure type of terrorism

Hildi

It has to go in the hold. It has to go in the hold with your Marmite. Because the Marmite's too big. For three weeks, we can't get away with a little tiny one. You know, it's got to be the big one. Oh my gosh. The big one. It is amazing the things that you think are Are normal to take because you just can't really function without them. I mean, you know, it you've got to have those safe things, haven't you? You've got to think what is what are the safe things, what are the things that are there? There's so much planning involved.

Mark

This is the first big sort of holiday that we've done in this in this format but and it it Pretty much, once we got into the rhythm of it, it was like, you know, get up, watch your iPad, have some breakfast, go into the swimming pool until 11 when it gets too hot, and then you come in at 11. Then everyone else basically gets to go in the pool without being splashed and splashed and terrorized by my kids. And then we'll go and find a shady spot for a couple of hours and read or play board games. So Jay would read and Otto. We'd play board games and then we'd go on an afternoon adventure. That was always the sticky bit there because, like, uh Tam and I wanted to go and do something a bit different. Um, so at one point they suggested climbing up the mountain that we could see So so we did that. We actually did it though. I mean, it was it was easier going up than it was coming down because by the time we came down, Jay had had enough and he was very, very vocal about That. And then one of the we went into the local town and again, we're just sort of making them challenge themselves and having to put up with the money Moaning. And Jay and I decide. Well, I decided to go walk to this little lighthouse. And Jay's moaning and moaning and moaning. And then eventually. He was, I don't see the point of being here because it was just walking to a lighthouse and back. Sometimes it's about the journey rather than the destination. And he went, Well, the journey's been awful, so I hope the destination has more to say for itself. But despite th that that that kind of moaning, I think they did challenge themselves and then we'd come back and then the back in the pool again and then I'd make dinner and we got into that routine And that for the duration was really lovely, and we got to kind of really actually relax like weirdly. And because Otto comes alive on holiday Holiday as well. He's a different dude on holiday because there's no demands on him. And that's such because he's so PDA and he's so anxious about Things that when there's no real, like, well, there's firstly, there's no demands, and secondly, He's got our undivided attention, which is really all he wants. He wants to be with us all the time, and he wants us to be with him all the time. And we can be So, when he says, Can we play a game? I was like, I've got nothing else to do. Yeah, of course, we can play a game. For the 400th time, we can play the same game, but at least I can do it. So, that was really nice. what where was slightly difficult was then coming back home. I don't know how you experienced the the transition of returning

Hildi

Oh, yeah. I mean, the transitions both ways are are quite challenging. And we had we had a we you know, we had a delay coming back. But We were also this time coming back into GCSE results. And Elsie kept saying I'm very anxious about that. I need to distract myself from it. I'm worried about it And she we basically let her kind of set what was going to be okay for her about the coming back and about the transition back. And I think she's of an age where we should prob we can probably do that a bit more. But um so she wanted to come back and go to her friends for a sleepover. Well, our flight was due back at midnight and we got back actually at about two half two in the morning, but she was still going to go to her friends for a sleepover. So we ended up dropping her at her friends at half past two in the morning for the sleep. God knows what her parents thought. I don't

Mark

I mean, did you forewarn them? Or was it did you just ring the bell and run off?

Hildi

No, we just were like, drop her off, drop her off. She disappeared into the house. We're like, the job done. And then she said, Oh, we're going to we're going to walk up to school in the morning and get our GCC results, or we'll call you and you can come up and meet us at school And so I w I arrived at school to be to meet her head teacher and he's like, How you know, are you pleased with how she's done? I was like, I don't even know how she's done. She we just dropped her off at this friend's house in the middle of the night But it was I think for her it was about in her head, this is what it was going to look like. And you had to let her do it. This is what it's going to look like. And any attempt by us to To enforce what we thought it should look like was going to be a problem. And I think that's what I've learned over the years with these children is They kind of have an idea about what it's going to look like. And wherever you can, if you can let it look like that, it's probably easier. You know, it's probably much easier But the when she got home from that, she just slept for a day. And that's often Elsie's response to having been overstimulated or masking or you know, she sleeps. So, you know, during school She would manage maybe three days a week at school and she would sleep for the other two. Like the the most tired per look she'd look like she'd done a marathon and you'd, you know, go in her room and she'd be snoring her head off, you know, she will kill me for saying that, but she she absolutely dead.

Mark

But it must it's exhausting. Like you know, we don't I don't think you can underestimate how exhausting all ev everything that goes on inside the neurodivergent brain is.

Hildi

when so many things are different. That's I had no I think that's what that's what has been a revelation to me over the last kind of ten, twelve years is that genuine tiredness that comes with navigating a world that is just more demanding for you than it is for a neurotypical And it's not it's not being lazy, it's not being weak or anything, it is being completely burnt out and completely exhausted. where we give her time to to to recharge is is really important. It's really, really important that she has that time and that I kind of stand up for her as well. She's not being lazy, she's really tired, you know?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we we always made we met I I kind of said that I was going to go to my niece's birthday party the day after the holiday and As soon as I did that, I was like, Yeah, that's not going to happen.

Hildi

That's not going to happen. Let me cough. It's not going to happen.

Mark

Because I'm not going to just going to pick up the kids and say, Right, I know you've got back, and you're just like enjoying being back in your own space. you need to just you know, like, um, just to climatize to the the the change of pace again. But let's all go to a three-year-old's birthday party. It's like, no, we're not gonna do that. So we didn't. Um that would have been the worst, the worst thing we could do.

Hildi

Because ours are older, you know, we you know, for me, in a way, that's good. I know she's going to crash after we've done a weekend away or we've you know, we um she's got she's she's um she's obsessed with the theatre. She wants to do acting, she's obsessed with the theatre and she's she's started going up to London on her own and To going to see plays and things. And after she's done that, she's going to sleep for the day. And in a way, it's a bit selfish, but I know I just let her. And I've got that day to myself. when they're little, you've got to kind of navigate that and you can't go anywhere. And you've got to support them and they're kind of they're recharging. So a little bit of glimmer of hope for you, Mark, in the future. When they're crashing and when they're crashing out and they're sixteen, seventeen, that's a day you've got to yourself. That's a payback day for you. It's nice. They just go to sleep and you just You just text them or phone them and say, Just it's lunch time, eat something, you know, and then you know, they're just gonna push some cucumber under the door.

Mark

Yeah, a little bit of cheese. Not not grated incorrectly, of course.

Hildi

So perfectly grated.

Mark

I mean, when we came back, it was quite turbulent because not not the flight that was fine but actually coming back coming back because there's definitely a thing again I think their ADHD presents much more acutely. When when they know they're coming home and they know that the next step is home, they haven't really envisaged the bit Between landing and then getting home. And so taking a while to get off the plane was really frustrating for Jay in particular, who's very impatient. Otto. Was getting more and more anxious about it as well. At one point, I had to sort of help Jay regulate a bit. He really likes compression So if he's dysregulated, he wants me to compress his chest. So I stand behind him and I squeeze him and he makes this really weird noise. And he's enjoying it and he wants me to do it, but everyone else thinks I'm damaging my child. So I get some very funny looks, but I also know that's kind of better than the alternative of him basically being rude to everyone. I mean, Otto found it very, very like he was all over the place when he got Back, and I couldn't again. He can't understand his emotions, and he can't articulate his emotions and why he's feeling the way he's feeling, very much like Tam, actually. And he was just all over the place and he was asking loads of questions and like when are we going to get home and how are we getting home and uh and he was crying he was just crying and Uncontrollably, and at one point, he just went, I just want my normal life back. It's like, oh, poor Otto. But again, we got in a cab, super expensive. But again, there was no way. Because also, when we got back in, it was rush hour. It's like I'm reluctant to get us on a train at any time. But rush hour, when Otto is like this and Jay is impatient to get home, the last thing we need is to be. Surrounded by commuters.

Hildi

It's all about safe, isn't it?

Mark

And controlled and knowable.

Hildi

And I think a lot of and protecting them from those kinds of like. you know, eyes looking at them as well. You know, nobody likes to be seen when they're in distress. Nobody likes that really, even if you're not very aware. And I do feel that there's I mean it Elsie's articulate about that. Now, sometimes I make her feel uncomfortable when I think I'm making things better. But you know, that it's it's not nice. It it's it's a helpful thing, I think, to try and protect them from people that are judging. And, you know, that's one of our jobs as well. You know, we They don't want to feel embarrassed. They don't want to feel stupid. They're not stupid and they're not doing anything wrong. But other people don't understand.

Mark

You know. So all in all though, it was a successful holiday. Like, uh, genuinely I was r I was really worried about it, but but the upshot is everyone had a good time and w apart from the bumpy bits at either end, it was it was I think we'll do it again. Maybe not the same place every year.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Right. I wanted to end the podcast on the The more positive side of things. Not that this has been negative at all, but I'm going to end it on the it's not all rubbish section, which Features a couple of different things. The the first one I want to talk about is NeuroDiversity Champions. And I was just wondering if you've got any company or any people that are amazing with neurodivergency and You wish to champion them and mention them.

Hildi

Yeah, I d I do. And it it it's um I said earlier, one of the shops that you always get at airports is a Lego shop. And so we've bought a lot of Lego to keep things happy on flights or waiting. And Lego has been a sort of staple of Elsie's life. for a long time. The day before she started her GCSE, she made a Lego Whitehouse. And that was a beautiful calming thing there. Lego has been a very Lego is a really lovely thing for her. obviously, she's getting a bit older now and I didn't realize until quite recently that Lego now do a kind of adult range. So they know their they know their market. They know their role in the the kind of neurodiversity world. And they now do like um these adult things, like these beautiful bouquets of flowers and things like that that you can buy to make. They're a I I they're stunning and beautiful They probably still hurt if you stand on them in the middle of the night, but they they they're making these lovely things. And um and what I didn't know until um today is that they also you can download mindfulness tracks to listen to while you make them as well. Incredible. Like, you know, that this is they recognize that this is not just for children. And Elsie said to me tonight, she said that the um for her as a neurodiverse person, actually the creating of things to the kind of to the instructions is also really important, that actually being able to follow those instructions And to be able to have it all kind of organized is really, really helpful and really calming. And as a neurotypical, I had no idea. You know, I'd rather just build some random shit out of Lego.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny wins.

Mark

The other section I wanted to kind of do in this one is the tiny wins section, which is always A favorite of mine is these these things that would ordinarily in a neurotypical family not be seen as a major thing at all. But in our worlds, what would be seen as a tiny win in their world is a major victory in ours. So what Have you got any tiny wins you want to share with us?

Hildi

I've got I've actually I'm a bit cheating because I've got a really big win.

Mark

Okay.

Hildi

But um I I think a lot of people take it for granted. But um Elsie's just finished school and yeah, finishing school was a was a win for us. But she um She went to prom. And you think of prom, it's like wearing fancy clothes, having your hair done, going to a new place, bi so much expectation.

Mark

Oh God, yeah.

Hildi

Absolutely massive. And Polly didn't didn't go to school, wasn't going to school when when, you know, when she was that age, so she never got a prom. And the win for me was we managed to buy a dress, which was still a dress she wanted to wear by the time the prom came. We did her hair, we did her makeup. It was a really hot day. Heat is an issue for her. We managed to get her and she went to prom and older sister who I think for who for whom it was really difficult because she didn't get to go to prom and couldn't manage it. She did her hair and she was able to be happy for her and we took some of the funny focus. Yeah, just that thing of doing what other kids do as they're kind of leaving school.

Mark

It's a major thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Hildi

Really, really huge. And it was so sensory and so difficult. And she looked like a Hollywood Starlet, and I was so it was so lovely for us all. It was really nice.

Mark

Good. Oh, wow. That's amazing. Uh, I've got a tiny win, which again is not it yeah. Um, is that I I went camping this weekend. With a big group of friends, we'd go camping a lot. It's great for the kids because the bar is very low.

Hildi

Stay alive, yeah.

Mark

And one, and there was a lot of whittling going on. On, right? Which is like it's really nice. I've got a group of friends who are really into whittling. It's not my really, really my thing, but they've all got like knives and they whittle kind of weapons out of wood, like swords and stuff. And one of them offered to help Jay choose one. And he helped him, he talked him through whittling. Now, Jay does not. take instruction easily. He knows best at all times. No one else knows better than him at anything. Oh, I know. Exactly. You can vouch for that. So so but he listened. To advice, right? He listened to how you're supposed to whittle and he did some work and he sanded it and he looked at this person for advice. And then I overheard him going up to the guy, his name's Bill. Shout out to Bill. Thank you, thank you so much, mate. And Jay approached him totally unprompted and said, He said, Thank you. I couldn't have done it without your help. For me, for Jay to acknowledge that someone has helped him and that almost like they know more than him opens up a world of possibilities for me because I am I I have been concerned about how Jay is going to kind of find his way in the world, if he's not going to accept that some people know better than him Some things that he wants to do. And one of his goals, what he's decided he wants to be in life is a blacksmith Right. Again, again, tying in this whole with this Victorian vibe that he's got going on, right? He wants to be a blacksmith Um, and I was like, That's great because it's a thing that you can do and like if you've got a goal, we can make that happen in whatever way. But at some point you're gonna need to listen to someone's advice and you're gonna need to to accept that they can show you how to do it and To kind of be guided by them. And I've always been worried that he would just walk into a forge and go, I know what I'm doing, setting fire to the forge and burning himself Um so just having hi overhearing this conversation completely unprompted just made me realize that it's it's just me he won't Take advice from that made me feel wonderful. So, that is my tiny win.

Hildi

That's a brilliant win. That is the brilliantest win.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

The o the other one um the other part of this section I wanted to do is the what the flip section. This is basically uh where where you just have a moment um an interaction with with your kids where it's just like where the hell has that come from what um and again i have the regularly but mostly with jay to be honest um i don't know if you do have you had any of these with yours recently.

Hildi

Yes, so the w the what the flip that that comes to mind with with me, with with my two is the extent that the hilariousness of the fact that they can't kind of get themselves together to eat a meal. They have to sort of be reminded or present better, presented with an actual plate of food that's separate and it's things that they're eat and quite beige usually. And um but they can both kind of follow really intricate um patterns or instructions. Elsie will make her idea of fun is to make some IKEA furniture. And Polly crochets these kind of elaborate designs. She did this Barbie logo crocheted into the fabric of a jumper the other day. So, yeah, hilariously. Can't, yeah, can't cook breakfast, but you know.

Mark

But like detailed and complex instructions that are fully on board with it.

Hildi

Fully on board with it. I can't get my head around that.

Mark

I just had to do some IKEA furniture recently. And if I'd have known.

Hildi

Is there writing fun?

Mark

I thought the first sort of twenty minutes was fun and then it became torture for me. So I will definitely bear that in mind next time. I had a couple of what the flip moments with Jay on holiday. One was when we were on the flight on the way there, and there was a baby crying on the plane. And he was like, Who would bring a baby on a plane? I was like We brought you on a plane when you were little. It was like, well, I didn't cry. I was like, Jay, it's not his fault. He's just having a really bad time. And he said, that baby wasn't having a bad time. He's just a weak-minded fool. Yeah, yes, he is. I can't argue.

Hildi

Yeah, he's fine. I love that group.

Mark

And the other one, which was the other one, which really threw me. I didn't know where to go with it. We were on a hike in the afternoon of like of adventure on on our holidays. We went on a hike up a mountain that they'd identified. Wasn't that seeming Mountain, but it felt like it. Um, and and Otto and uh, Tam were like ahead, miles ahead of us, and and Jay was with them, and me and India were just kind of sitting in the shade for a little bit. And Jay then walks back towards us really casually and very matter of factually just went, We think Otto might have fallen off and died. We don't have proof yet, but mummy's looking. I was just like, What? What? Because we didn't know where Otto was, but I just assumed that he'd kind of gone off. And just how casually he just dropped that. Was really alarming. So then I'm shouting ahead of me. And eventually, like, Tam was like, He's okay. I found him. And he was safe. And so he'd wandered off. But Being Otto, he's like just in his own world, so he's not responding to us calling his name at all. He's just in his own little world. So eventually we found him, and then Jay went, Oh, damn. And I think I might have been rid of him once and for all. He's like some Bond villain.

Hildi

You need to get him a little white to stroke, yeah, I think. That would that's a new cat.

Mark

We do have a a grey and white cat, but he won't go near him. And one of the other things that I wanted to kind of do in the It's Not All Rubbish section because you know, as we know, we talk about, you know, the challenges that we face with our kids, but I definitely want to highlight the things that are amazing About them, and I think it's important to recognise that and to acknowledge that. So, this is your time to tell me what is the best thing about your kids.

Hildi

Well, apart from getting my IKEA furniture made for me, which is a bonus, um, they they are both they are both absolutely hilarious. They are they are the funniest, funniest people I know. And our family WhatsApp is A source of great entertainment to me. They are funny and clever as well. And they've what we're seeing what we're getting now as they get older is we're also finding they're absolutely brilliant at pub quizzes So we you know, they hear something for the first they hear something once, they know it forever. And we're finding that very useful. We're I think we Usually third in our local pub quiz, but we're hoping to improve on that.

Mark

Excellent. No, Otto's definitely good at at remembering things. He's just a little bit too young To take into a pub reliable at the moment.

Hildi

It is what you've got to look forward to, you think.

Mark

One day I'm going to be training you up.

Hildi

They're just correcting you all the time. They'd actually be able to win you prizes.

Mark

Yeah, I can't help but feel that. That Jay is going to be correcting the Quizmaster in a way that would get us kicked out, though. So I think that draws us to the end of the Podcast. So, firstly, Dr. Hildi Mitchell, thank you so much for coming and joining me and sharing your holiday experiences. It's been a genuine treat to talk about it. And if anybody is listening. at home and you want to write to us, you feel free to contact us. Hello at neuroshambles. com. If you've got any ideas for any kind of topics that you want us to cover or if you want to share your own neurodivergency champions, we can talk about that. Anyway, any way you want to get In touch with us, we're also on the socials on. Um, we're not on Twitter or X or whatever the hell he's called it this week. Um, we're on threads in case that takes off, but Instagram, Reddit, all the socials, then Facebook, all of that govins. But feel free to contact us, it'd be lovely to hear from you. So, all that remains for me is to say thank you, Dr. Mitchell, for being here. Thank you to the audience for listening, and have a nice life.