How to be your neurodivergent child's safe person | Jo and Dotty Matthews

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 55 of Neuroshambles. As always, it's an absolute joy to have you here, Neuroshamblers. Thanks for bearing with me a little bit longer than normal while I navigated the Easter holidays with my chocolate-addled lunatics. This episode is a particularly bumper packed one. It's a little bit longer than usual. For reasons that will become clear later on, I don't want to give you any spoilers. So let's just crack on with it and you'll see what I mean.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So, this week's guest is no stranger to Neuroshamblers. So, if you're a long time listener, she needs no introduction. However, if you're a relative noob to the world of Neuroshambles, I should just give you a quick lowdown on who she is. As well as being a parent of two now fully grown neurodivergent children, she was the ringmaster in charge of the circus that was Sunday Club The local group set up for parents of autistic ADHD kids, where I live in Brighton, which I discussed at length in the recent episode about Finding Your People with Sam Bailey. Since we first met, she has inadvertently become hugely influential in the way I parent my own kids by showing me how to unapologetically advocate for their needs and to embrace the chaos and the joy they bring in equal measure. I am absolutely delighted to be able to welcome back its Jo Matthews.

Jo

Thank you, Mark. What a lovely introduction.

Mark

It's all true.

Jo

And it's a joy to be here. Always, always a pleasure to sit and have a natter with you.

Mark

And you still don't can't bring yourself to listen back to anything we record.

Jo

I don't. I'm so common. In my head, I'm not as common as I am in real life. And then when I hear my voice, I'm just like, Oh my God.

Mark

You are authentically Jo. Don't ever apologize. Okay, so for those people who do not know about your setup or might need a bit of a recap, just tell me about the neurodivergencies at play in your household, Jo.

Jo

So I am the incredibly proud parent of George, who's twenty three, and George is autistic and has ADHD. And then Dotty is now nineteen and is autistic and she has some physical health issues, but no other neurodivergence. And then Phil, their dad and I, we're both in that middle aged gray area of we're almost definitely neurodivergent, but it's kind of too late for that, do you know?

Mark

Yeah, but is it worth it? You know.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

We've got this far in life, you know.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

And we, as you say, fully accept, embrace and celebrate all things neurodivergency. We are delighted to be a Neurospicy family.

Mark

Good, good. Thanks for introducing me to your setup again. We've got lots to cover in this one, so let's crack on with it.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, this week's topic of the week is one that I've had on my list for a while now because it was one that was suggested by a Neuroshambles listener called Lydia. And I've been waiting for the right guest to discuss it with. So when I was speaking to Jo about potential topics for this episode, I realized she'd be the perfect person to tackle this Quite naughty subject, I think, which is the responsibility of being your child's safe person. Now before we get into discussing the topic, I thought it might be useful to read the email I received from Lydia so we can discuss some of the points raised and we can relate it back to our own experiences. So this is it. Hi Neuroshambles, please can you do an episode on why some of our kids are so intensely attached to us? My 13-year-old daughter is almost certainly neurodivergent but undiagnosed because she refuses to go down the assessment route. She's always suffered with terrible anxiety, but it seems to be increasing lately. I am her anchor, and always have been, but right now her anxiety is manifesting as a desire to have me with her all the time. She wants me to sleep in her room almost every night and hates me going out. When I'm away from her she panics and calls and texts me constantly, unable to relax or sleep until I'm home again. Obviously, I want to do whatever I can to reduce her dysregulation, but I also want her to learn to manage her anxiety when I'm away, because being with her constantly just isn't possible.

Jo

Oh, Lydia. That's a lot.

Mark

Yeah. It is a lot.

Jo

That's really familiar. Yes. I've been there many, many times.

Mark

Yeah, okay, which is exactly why I thought you would be the perfect person To discuss this with being so neuro-affirming, but also understanding things from the other side of things. So, obviously, reading between the lines, it seems that Lydia's daughter sees her as one of her only safe people in a world. that I'm sure seems unsafe and daunting and overwhelming. So obviously increasingly needs her mum to help her navigate this in times of uncertainty, which you know, is I'm sure it's a situation a lot of Neuroshamblers have.

Jo

Interestingly, what I've seen in my own family and sort of through working with other neurodivergent families it seems to be much more common in girls. And I don't know why that is. I don't know what the science behind that is, but it seems to be a sort of female autism trait that isn't uncommon at all.

Mark

Do you think that that might be tied to the prevalence of masking in people who were assigned female at birth, do you think? That they're holding it all in during the day so much that actually when they get back to their safe person They really need them because they've just popped up that dysregulation. They've kind of brought it up over the day.

Jo

With Dot... Sorry, I'm giggling because I've just remembered when she was really small With Dotty, who will talk to you in a while and will openly we talk about it openly, I was always her safe. person and it was a very, very intense attachment and an intense need to be with me. I think it started when she was a toddler.

Mark

Right, okay.

Jo

Now let me tell you, Mark, about gee. And if you've got any Irish listeners, I just want to say yes, I know. For non Irish listeners, gee in Ireland means a lady's area. However, to Dotty, key meant apple juice.

Mark

Right. Right.

Jo

So right from when she was a toddler, the meaning I went to sit down or do anything other than be focussed on her, she would shout, I want a gee. And I'd have to go an apple juice. And she I mean, we took her to the doctors thinking she was diabetic because she was drinking so much geek that it was like there must be something wrong with this child. But In retrospect, I now think, God, was that that intense attachment starting really early on so that even the idea of me Not being focused on her felt scary and threatening. And I know I'll get her to get me a gee because that was the way you were getting your attention. That gets her back to me and not Trying to do anything else.

Mark

That is quite interesting. So obviously, when we spoke about this initially, Dotty was the one that you were like, oh, yeah, that's... That's the experience that I have. You obviously didn't have that with George.

Jo

No, he was much more laid back, and he needs me. He needs me to sort of help him regulate sometimes and definitely help him be and he always needed that. But there was something with Dotty that it was an intense need

Mark

Yes.

Jo

The idea of not being able to access me was terrifying to her. So, yeah, as a toddler, it was the constant gee. If I ever if sorry, if I ever tried to cuddle her brother, she would come and she would get her bum in between us and wiggle until we were separated And then she'd be so it was like this very gradual build up, I guess, from toddlerhood onwards of this child really, really needs me in a way that I've Not experience. And then she started school.

Mark

And then all hell broke.

Jo

Right.

Mark

Okay. Because obviously that's a major thing, isn't it? If you're seen as a safe person. And in the preschool years, you can be with them most of the time. And you go, well, you need to be. Obviously, you can't leave your toddler roaming around and just spending time. very often. So understandably, you have to be near, but then from your point of view, it's like, right, she's going to school Fantastic. I'd get a little bit of time to myself and to remember who I am as a human instead of just a mum. How did that go then at at school when she had to go?

Jo

Bless her little heart. It was just too much. She couldn't bear being away from me. So we tried all sorts of things. One thing that really helped was Mummy Mouse. So We had this little tiny mouse teddy.

Mark

Right.

Jo

And it's like when you get a new puppy or something like that, I would literally just have it stuffed in my jumper For a few days and then give it to Dot and be right, right, take mummy mouse to school. And she'd have him up her sleeve.

Mark

Right.

Jo

In psychological terms, it's called a transitional object. And this object represents, okay, mum still exists, mum's still at home, I will get to see mum, but until then I've got mouse. Hang on to mouse.

Mark

And there's also that smell, I'm guessing, as well. The scent is a very evocative scent.

Jo

Yeah, so to an extent, that helps.

Mark

Okay, interesting. And then obviously this has evolved over time as you've learned more about Dotty's neurotype and as Dotty presumably kind of needed you more over time, which we'll go into in more detail. But I'm just quite interested in, you know, for people who aren't familiar with the Term safe person, or the, you know, what that involves. I think there's what being a safe person for your neurodivergent child looks like is different. As you were saying with George. He still needed you, just in a different way, potentially. And it's the same with me and my kids. They all need me in very different ways. And I think depending on your child's specific blend of neurodivergent traits, it shows up in different ways. So, Otto has anxiety, he's extremely anxious. So, being a safe person for him. requires me to essentially work alongside him, helping him navigate the world. So the analogy that I've used on previous episodes is that He needs a Sherpa to help him navigate through life. And I am his Sherpa, bless him. So, you know, someone who can help him navigate. Terrain that he's not familiar with and carry a lot of the heavy baggage that he's struggling with. So he needs me and Tam. alongside him through most steps of the journey. If not us, other people, which again we'll kind of get on to, but it's particularly important to him because of his anxiety So he's very reluctant to engage in any new situation unless we're there, even if actually a situation he's been in and he knows he enjoys, unless we're sort of there to act as a guide or someone is there that he's comfortable with. Is safe for him. Jay and India, completely different because they're PDA, right? So, how I am perceived as a safe person is very different because they both largely want to be independent. Right, they don't really want me around. You know, Jay, literally last night I was chatting to him, he's like, okay, you can go now.

Jo

Just yes. Right, right.

Mark

We were having a nice chat, and he was like, right, I'm done. He doesn't. want me there often.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Which is fine. It's okay, but it's very, very different from Otto. India, very similar, except that she doesn't say it. She just waves me off. She dismisses me like I'm a belligerent butler or something like that.

Jo

Off you trot now.

Mark

She dismisses me that way. But again, it's not that need for closeness that I experience with Otto I think it's quite interesting because it is an anxiety based thing when it becomes a need to be with that to almost imprint yourself on that same person.

Jo

It's and it there is an intensity to it that I think the parents of neurotypical children can't begin to fathom the intensity of that attachment. I mean, I've had phases Where I couldn't go to the toilet on my own. I literally had to be physically next to Dots ninety-nine per cent of the time.

Mark

Which is no fun for both of you, let's face it. I mean, she must really have needed you.

Jo

Yeah. And it was hard work for me, but I think for Dotty, that must have been so much worse. Because imagine having your whole sense of safety Tied up in being physically next to a person and being constantly with another person just isn't always possible because we have to go to work or, you know

Mark

Did that manifest itself in sleeping as well?

Jo

Oh, yeah.

Mark

Yeah, okay.

Jo

So that was the thing that I mean, she still does sometimes. And that's fine. That's, you know. We got a really big bed, and that's what she needed. That just sort of physical presence. What I would say, it ebbs and flows. So there would be time periods where that intensity was full on, and I had to be physically present, emotionally present in every way imaginable. And then there would be other times where it would just sort of ease off a bit and When Dot felt less anxious, more confident about her place in the world.

Mark

So a lot of this is tied to the anxiety. Oh, 100%. So obviously the more anxious they feel, the more more tightly they kind of Cling to you because they need you to be there for them.

Jo

Yeah. And it's an enormous privilege to be someone's safe person, isn't it? What an enormous privilege to kind of But it's yeah, it's exhausting as well.

Mark

Yeah, of course.

Jo

It's like I had to build in non negotiables. And I'm still working on my bath as being a non negotiable. To this day, I'm not sure.

Mark

Don't tell me she gets in with you.

Jo

No, no, no, no. Okay, okay. That's a whole nervous thing.

Mark

It's not going that far.

Jo

To this day, I'll be in the bath and I'll hear one of them at the door, like trying to open the door to just ask me something, and I'll lie in the bath just going, No and then I hear the footsteps receding. But those sort of little windows of time where it was like that's non-negotiable, I'm not available, and that was not like a little reboot, you need to build those in. Even if it's half an hour a day of lying in the bath, sort of like that, you need that time to regulate yourself because you can't co-regulate unless you regulated yourself.

Mark

Yeah, it's interesting that we were talking about The toilet because again, you know, it's not a sanctuary. It's not the sanctuary it needs to be in our household. Constantly, Otto will just pop in for a chat. It's like, dude, I'm having a moment. I'm having a moment.

Jo

And you're a dad. Dad's toilet times should be sacrosanct.

Mark

Everyone's toilet times should be sacrosanct. This is not a male-female dynamic.

Jo

No, no, true. True.

Mark

The more I thought about this, the more I realized I think there are different elements of safety that we can provide for our kids. And if you look at it on the umbrella of our children, are facing challenges with the outside world. They're facing, you know, uncertainty, not necessarily always anxiety, but there's almost certainly a feeling that they don't fit in. or that they're sort of being corrected for doing things that they don't understand why they're not correct. And there's a sense of not feeling their own place in the world yet. before they can fully articulate their neurodivergency, they fully understand their neurotype, maybe. So it's important that They are with people who get it and who don't judge and who can accommodate their needs and help them with it. And I was I wanted to look at the different ways that we can be safe a safe person for our kids and that we do, you know, mostly without thinking, but why that's so important to them and what we actually do there. I think the the top one, I haven't got a league table. This is just like a number one number one. But I think probably the most important of all of these Facets of being a safe person is being their co-regulator, helping them to regulate when they're dysregulated Because over time, we do learn the different strategies that our kids need when they're in overwhelm. And when they're in overwhelm, it gets to the point that they're not able sometimes to rationally think about, okay, this is where I am, and this is what I need to come back from overwhelm, certainly with mine, when they're dysregulated then I need to step in, or Tam needs to step in and help to kind of guide them back to a place of regulation. And that's very different for each one of my children. And I now know the secret little I know the things. I know the off-ramps that I can guide them to. And that's become really important to them because they trust me to be able to do that. And I'm guessing that that's where you were with Dotty.

Jo

Yeah. I think sometimes the needs of our children can get pathologised when actually maybe we could look at them as just well, that's part of child development. So all children need co regulation until they're of an age whereby they've learnt how to regulate themselves. All children need that. Our children might need that for much longer. George is pushing 24 years now. No, he's not. He's not. I'm doing him a disservice.  But our children might need that for longer. They might appear to have got to the point where they're really good at self-regulating and then have the odd moment where it's like, Oh, God, I can't do mum, mum, mum, I need you. And I guess part of being a safe parent is showing up again and again and again and again, even if it feels like God, you're 13, you should be able to manage this. And yeah, I guess there isn't a should. it will ebb and flow, and there will be times when they really need more help to regulate. And then there will be other times where it's like you've Sit up one day and go, Oh my god, look at you, you've got this. You had a really healthy moment there, and you're kind of managing it. And yeah, that's Unfortunately, or fortunately, just the job description, isn't it?

Mark

Yes. And our role, I guess, is to be there when they can't. You know, either they haven't learned the strategies themselves to be able to do it. So it's different, you know, with again with my lot. Like Jay knows what he needs to regulate. He might need reminding that he needs to go and do that. And I don't have to be with him. In fact, it probably helps that I'm not with him while he does it. So today he was massively kicking off. Oh God. Lovely family game. And then he was not doing well. And I had to basically, you know, just nudge him towards self-regulation as in go and do your thing. And then he was like, fine. And then he did it. And everyone breathed a sigh of relief. And In India and Otto came out of hiding. Okay, but he's largely able to do that. India can't do that.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

But then India's eight. So it takes a little bit more time. So India needs me. And that's not, you know, I'm not deliberately trying to build up a need or a dependency. It's just, the more overwhelmed they are, the more they're going to look towards us to help them because they've got experience of us doing that before.

Jo

And that and as I say, I think that it's okay. I think it is okay with you know

Mark

Well, what's the alternative? The alternative is what leaving them to just like s fester in overwhelm. That's like no, that's never gonna an acceptable way of dealing with it, is it? And I think as you say, and it's worth just sort of reiterating this, I think the more anxious they feel, the more they need you because they're so much closer to that overwhelm. The more I think, as you say, that they mask and then they come back into their home and they couldn't unmask, the more then it all comes out and then they need that regulation as well. I'm interested in whether that intensified for you and Dotty round about sort of as she started to become a teenager and puberty kicked in, whether that had an impact on it.

Jo

I think friendship dynamics for girls and AFAB children become really complicated round about the age of thirteen, fourteen. Their sort of neurotypical peers have become much more socially sophisticated. And sort of our children can be a bit bewildered and left behind. So I think I don't know that puberty in and of itself was a factor. But certainly those relationships are navigating the trauma that is in every school. Meant quite often a return to, okay, yeah, come and sleep in my bed. Okay, yeah, um, you know, right, I'll pick you up from school And we used to I did this wasn't my best parenting moment, but I used to get a phone call from the school saying, Oh, you know, Dot's not coping, can you come and get her? And I'd be like, Yeah, brilliant, I'm on my way. Let me just While I was driving from our house to the school, which I was normally there within twenty minutes of the phone call, Doc would ring me two or three times to say, Where are you? Where are you? When will you be here? And I didn't handle it brilliantly because in the end I just lost it. I went, Well, you stopped phoning me to ask I'm on the way. I've dropped everything And that, yeah, as I say, it wasn't my finest moment, but I think it did kind of then a penny drop for Dot. Oh, right, yeah, no, that that doesn't help mum get here Quicker, it just causes

Mark

It just makes mum more pissed off.

Jo

Yeah, yeah, it just causes her to arrive with steam coming out of her ears and a scary facial expression.

Mark

Yeah, because that is it as well. Because when you hear that your child is overwhelmed, I have this with Jay sometimes as well in the school phone meeting. Yeah. You're like, I can't, I want to do whatever I can, but I'm at work and I've got a just managing that, like having to drop things to go and do it is stressful. So we're a little bit overwhelmed as well.

Jo

Good point. Yes. I would be in the car already a little bit heightened and already a little bit like, oh, for God's sake, I was right in the middle of that. Fucking all the plans have changed. Yeah, and then getting two or three phone calls didn't add to my calmness.

Mark

No, I can imagine. One of the other things that I think our neurodivergent kids need for us to to be as their safe person. Not all of them, again, and this is this one is particularly prevalent with Otto, is sort of scaffolding their day-to-day life. I think this possibly happens when they're a bit younger, but I mean, Otto is certainly in that. In a world that can seem unpredictable. And uncertain. And when you have children who need to know what's going on, they need to know the plan. Otto does not deal well with surprises or changes in routine. He needs to kind of really think about the structure of a day before it happens, but not too far in advance. There's no point in me telling you about two days' time because that's you know, you can't hold all that in there. But you need to know the plan for the day. So I need to give him a heads up about everything that's planned. And he can't handle any amount of time that is where there's not a plan.

Jo

Oh, God.

Mark

Which is quite difficult for me. As what I will call an improvisational parent. Yeah, okay. Oh, so Tam sort of plans things Activities and stuff to do. That's part of Tam's neurotype as well. Tam is ADHD, so needs to go, right? Well, I know that I've got them this weekend, and then we're going to do this, and we're going to go here, and we're going to do this. Right, fine. And then Tam can relax.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

I'm just like, eh, we'll do so. We'll probably go swimming. If the weather's nice, we'll go for like a walk or something. Otherwise, we'll just make shit up as we go along. Yeah. Which Is fine for me. It's definitely fine for Jay and India because they're PDA. They like the novelty, right? Otto needs shit to do at all times. So he's fine with us not having sort of set plan like big plans, but he will constantly be going Can we do table tennis? And then I'll go, like, well, I've got to do this. Like, I've got, you know, I have to do shit in the house as well. I'm a parent. You know, I'm a homeowner. You know, I've got to do the washing and I've got to do the cooking and the, you know, the cleaning. But yes, when I do this, we'll play table tennis. And as we're I go to get him to play table tennis, I have to give him a time as well. Right. As I'm on the way to play table tennis, he will be asking me what we're doing after table tennis. And it's like, this is the thing. Concentrate on this thing now. I've done this thing. Just enjoy the table, Tennis. Yeah, but I have to say, okay, and then we do that, and then we do that, and then we do that. And that's really important for him. And I think it, you know, I don't know if you've experienced that with either of yours.

Jo

Dot would appear first thing in the morning. And I'm looking at her 'cause she's across the room I've never been accused of being an early riser. So on a Saturday morning, I would like open my eyes at about half ten, eleven and she'd  be there I'd be like, oh, morning. And she'd go, what are we doing today? Oh, Jesus.

Mark

Well, first thing, getting my shit together.

Jo

I'll be drinking coffee. Yes, there has to be a plan, and that plan had to involve her and I spending significant amounts of a day together.

Mark

That laughter you hear in the background by the way Neuroshamblers is Dotty, who is listening in on this. Now, I haven't actually said this on this episode, but Dotty has kindly agreed to To be a second guest on Neuroshambles. So I'm going to be talking to Dotty later. In the meantime, if you hear that laughter in the background, that cackle in the background, that'll be Dotty.

Jo

Oh, I think she's keeping an eye on us as well as waiting for her moment.

Mark

It's funny, isn't it, that we're talking about an episode about being your child's safe person and Dotty is literally in the room with you.

Jo

Yeah!

Mark

So it never leaves you, does it?

Jo

No, no.

Mark

So, yes, it's that in itself is quite difficult. And I totally understand what he needs. It, why Otto needs it, why Dotty needed it. It's this uncertainty of like, well, what does the day look like? And they need that. And it falls on us to provide that. And that is a way that we can show that we're the a safe person. When they're going to school, even though there's a timetable, you don't have that necessarily of someone who's explaining In enough detail, I think, to transition each point.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

So if they've got someone who can do that in minute detail in their day-to-day life, then obviously they can feel a bit more comfortable and a bit more safe around them. Another function as a safe person, and again, it's another one that I have with Otto, but not necessarily with the other two, is that I have to largely be Otto's executive function. Right. He struggles with executive function. He finds it difficult to remember where he puts things or managing his time. or coping with multiple instructions at once. Sometimes I even have to remind him to go to the toilet or eat because he just gets distracted and I notice him getting a bit You know, a bit fizzy, a bit overwhelmed. I'm like, have you eaten? Do you need the drink? Do you have you gone to the toilet in the last four hours? And then he'll do it and it will fix him. But it's very much a facet of parenting or

Jo

And it's funny enough, Dotty never really struggled with executive function as much as her brother did.

Mark

Okay.

Jo

That's more of an ADHD thing, isn't it? Yes, because he's ADHD as well. So to this day, he will come and it will be right, Mum, I've got this problem. I need to book out some equipment at college, and I've never booked out equipment before, and I don't know what to do. And that so for him, I'll be much more like, okay, we'll break it down and okay, so who could you ask? And okay, shall we email them? Dot would have booked out the equipment, brought it home, set it up and got on with it before I even knew about it. She'd have sorted her own self out. So, yeah, it's different. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, and again, I think India would definitely do that. Jay yeah, I think I think he's getting it.

Jo

I'm gonna completely digress and you may you can put this in or leave this out.

Mark

Can I tell you the drowning story? Yeah, please do. Please do.

Jo

It's funny as fuck, right? So a while back, Dot said to me, if me and George were both drowning, who would you save? And I've thought about it for a minute and I went I'd save your brother, because Your brother would just flail about shouting, going, I'm drowning, I am fucking drowning, I am drowning here. He would somehow find a way to blame me for the fact that he was drowning. And he'd be he'd be fucked. There would be no chance whatsoever of him surviving.

Mark

But he wouldn't help himself.

Jo

No. But while George was shouting, I'm drowning, Dot would have made a plan. She'd have thought, right, how do I get myself out of this drowning scenario? Yeah, she would have executed that plan and we'd meet her on dry land. So it's that. That's the difference.

Mark

And she's going to end up swimming back in and saving both of you.

Jo

Yeah, or probably. Well, but she organised like a search party with lifeguards and stuff to come and get us.

Mark

India's tried asking me that that kind of question. That is a difficult question to answer. She actually asked me who my favourite was.

Jo

Oh, it's a tricky one.

Mark

And my answer, my answer to that always. Is Colin from down the road. Right, Colin doesn't exist. I've never met a Colin. A child called Colin, but I've just invented this child. This perfect child. And that seems to that she knows I'm joking, but she did actually ask me to draw a picture of him today.

Jo

You're gonna have to just find please find a random, really good-looking child. Just go. Yes, this is Colin. Yeah. And here's a short video of him singing or something being perfect.

Mark

He's playing the oboe.

Jo

Or eating. Look at his table manners.

Mark

He's using a knife and fork. Look at this.

Jo

Unbelievable.

Mark

And you wonder why he's my favourite. Oh, I need a Colin. So yeah, so with Otto, and it sounds like with George as well, executive function is a big struggle for them sometimes. So being their executive function is another way that we can Be their safe person. It feels a lot like Otto outsources his brain to me sometimes. Like, he doesn't even try and put stuff in his brain. He's like, you know, where's my iPad? It's like, you were literally, you were using it. I wasn't using it. Where did you put it? I don't know. And he's like I don't know. It's not even near to being something that he can recall. So then I have to go find it or try and give him strategies for remembering where it is. He also does this thing where he'll ask me where something is without looking for it. He won't even try looking for it. You'll just you know, it's like, well, that's just gone.

Jo

I'll ask them what is object permanency and again, that's an ADHD thing. If I can't see it It doesn't exist. It's gone. It's not real.

Mark

I know.

Jo

George does the same.

Mark

Very often, it is right in front of him. Yeah. He's not even tried looking. because had he just given a cursory glance around the room, he'd see that it was right there. But he doesn't

Jo

Exactly.

Mark

No wonder I'm safe for him. I'm all I fulfil so many functions.

Jo

You're an amazing guy, Mark.

Mark

I'm his memory as well. He also asks me to do stuff that I that he can do. Which I'm trying to train him out of now. But he's like, Can you get me some water? It was like, You can definitely do that. That's the thing you can do. You know, he did again, he did that today. It was like Yes, I can, but you can also do it. So crack on. But I think I feel like that is part of them leaning into you more.

Jo

As a safe person, they're like, oh, I can really just And it's testing it's going back to the gee with dot, it's testing does that still work? If I say, Oh, can you get me a water? Well, is that still working? Is dad still a hundred percent committed to my needs? I wonder.

Mark

Oh, I don't know.

Jo

One of the two, no, he's not doing it to test me.

Mark

No, he's not doing it to test me. I think, and I don't, yeah, it's interesting that I'd not seen it from a place of just, yeah, checking that I'm still, I'm still there, testing still committed to my needs.

Jo

Will he still do this if I ask him? Because that will make me feel a little bit safe and a little bit okay.

Mark

Interesting. Yeah. I'm going to have to think about that next time he asks me.

Jo

I mean, you could still say no, Mark.

Mark

Or I could go do it and go, Yeah, I can and then just tip it away. Your turn.

Jo

Power move, maintain eye contact whilst pouring.

Mark

Oh, it turns out I can get water.

Jo

Yeah, look at me.

Mark

The other function I think that we fulfil as our neurodivergent kids safe person is really important, I think. And that's advocating for being the person that shows up and helps them to advocate for them when they're not able to do it for themselves. Which I do to f for all of my kids, and I I'm sure that we all do it for all of our kids But I think they see that. And that's such a huge part of being safe for them is just having their back.

Jo

And yeah, being on their side. no matter what, and no matter how often, no matter how often I've had to go up the school or up the college or, you know I'm on their side and that's not going to change. And maybe that, yeah, that must make them feel safe, I guess.

Mark

Yeah, no, definitely. Well, I think some of it is an element of it is being a translator. between the world outside and them, I think, because so many things with our neurodivergent kids are not instinctive. You know, the way that the world responds, social interactions, unwritten rules and regulations and people's responses aren't always kind of clear to them. So having someone who is able to help to translate between the neurotypical world world and their own perspective of things, I think is really important. And I'm doing this a lot more with Jay now. We've had a few emails from the school this year where, for whatever reason, something has happened with the school and he's reacted badly to certain situations and then I will talk to Jay about it. But it's never just like ah school have been on the phone and you're in the It's obviously not that. It's like and also he's PDA, so you have to approach it very, very delicately. But it's then having those conversations and going, Explain what happened from your perspective. And it is crucially, it's a very collaborative kind of approach of like, I've had an email from the school, and I now need to get back to them and explain things from your perspective. So help me see that. And sometimes I have to go, You're making this hard for me. You know, I mean, I hear what you say, but think about how I'm gonna explain that to the school.

Jo

Sometimes you just have to go like, honestly, son, what the fuck were you thinking? George used to get detentions and every single time he'd be like, This is bullshit, it's bullshit

Mark

It's not always bullshit, though, is it?

Jo

There was one where they were trying to flush a locker door down a toilet. I don't even know what was going through their daft brains. And George was going, I didn't even do it. I wasn't even involved. And I said, George, they've got you on CCTV doing that at the camera

Mark

It's like, help me out here, George. It's like you're his defence lawyer, isn't it? It's like. I do feel like that sometimes with Jay. I'm like, okay, now, you know, but that's important. That's an important part of showing up, right? And I do, because I don't, you know, I don't blindly defend him. You know, I'd never want to be that like my child can do no wrong. But I can understand things from his perspective that they might not understand, and then say, okay, so this is what led up to that. Okay, this is the thing. This is probably w how that hand that situation would be better handled for Jay's neurotype. Because I've had that before where the teacher has handled it in a sort of a non PDA friendly approach. And I'm like, okay, well, next time, how about this? That's fine. And very often also I'll say to Jay, look, you could definitely have done things differently. And now we're a bit more collaborative. He has actually admitted Some things where he's like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, and with Otto as well, with school, sometimes when he was coming out of school regularly overwhelmed and anxious. He really needed me to explain back to the school. Here are the things that led to that overwhelm. Here are the things that could have been done differently. Not blaming them, but just going, this is his perspective. And I do think that they see us doing that. And it's like, okay, yeah, you're not having to go at me because the school's on the phone, you know?

Jo

And I think, as the parent now of older, wonderful, wonderful young people. is what I see now with both of them is they will self advocate. They are able to articulate their needs and to kind of Educate people as to actually I, you know, what I need is for you to do it this way. And Dotty is incredible at that. So, yeah, I think we're good. We're setting them, we're giving them that foundation of it's okay to identify your needs and express them to people. And you know, we're modelling how to do that.

Mark

That's my one wish for my kids. It's the biggest thing that I can do. is being able to advocate for themselves. And they're not there yet. We will. We've got a long way, but you know, we model it daily. So we'll We'll keep trying.

Jo

That's giving you lots of opportunities to model that advocacy.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

That's the way to look at it.

Mark

Absolutely. One thing that I do also do Is I tell Jay what I'm going to write back to the school again. And like, I think that's important to go. Look, you know, you've not left me much to work with here, but here's what I'm going to say. I'm going to say we've had a conversation about it and we've agreed this, right? Is that okay to say that? Good. Yeah, fine. And then, yeah, so it's. It's not easy, but we get there. The other one, which we sort of touched on, about being your child's safe person. It's being their physical safe space. That it's not just sort of being in the room or scaffolding things or helping them when they're overwhelmed. It's physically being there sometimes. Yeah, which is again a lot with Otto, but you're saying with Dotty, just having you there calmed her.

Jo

Yeah, and that is A huge privilege and it is absolutely exhausting. And I think it also depends on your own needs. I tend to reach a certain point where I just need to be on my own. And that sort of need for solitude was completely at odds at times with Dot's need to be with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just have to balance it as best you can and get in that bath and shout no at anyone who comes to the door.

Mark

This is the thing that we sort of You know, that we'll probably touch on later, actually. When they have to be physically with you, you don't get any respite, and it's not that we don't, we love my kids to bits. But I also just need that little like just a little breather. Yeah.

Jo

And some friends really don't get that. So I know um on the very occasional times I'd be out with friends and I'd have my phone on the table so that doc could text me and I could respond. And we'd sort of I think I'm trying to remember. I think we'd set a boundary and I'm half looking at dot of right text, but don't keep phoning me text.

Dotty

It was I could text you Every now and then, but I was allowed to call you.

Jo

Yes. And so something about knowing that she was allowed to text me as much as she wanted kind of helped her to feel safer without me.

Mark

Right. So it was the being out of contact was anxiety inducing, whereas it's like I'm not out of contact. You can text me, but I'm out.

Jo

Yeah, but don't ring me because I'm out with my friends, and if you text me, I'll respond. But you're not to ring. And I know some friends would be like, Jo, just put your phone away. And how would you begin to explain that to someone who just doesn't get it? It's like, well, I'm not going to do that because that would be a betrayal of my child's needs and she's not doing it to be awkward or demanding or difficult or this is what she needs from me and I will show up and meet that needs. Yes, of course.

Mark

Yeah. As they would with their children if they were in the same situation, but they don't see it because they'd see that the child is too needy. That's probably not the right terminology, but but it's like um there's possibly the implication that you're encouraging that as well. That codependency almost.

Jo

Oh, g.

Mark

So, yeah, this this need for you to be physically close. Manifests itself. And this is where, like, the being in the bed at night is true of you. And it's definitely true when Otto is particularly anxious. Always comes into my bed and he's incredibly wriggly, but he needs to be physically close, not even just being in the room, right? It's like limpet against me, and I end up sort of shoved against the wall. It's being in the room, it's being, and it's about a presence.

Jo

What I would say to you is... look, How many adults do you know who still sleep in a bed with their mum and dad because they can't cope otherwise? None. So it will be all right. That's what I keep telling myself. They will eventually get to the bottom.

Mark

Yeah, it's true.

Jo

But I know that's no comfort.

Mark

It feels like a luxury to have the bed to yourself, right? When you get it to yourself and you wake up and you go, I got the whole night to myself.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Glory days. But there's definitely that, you know, again. Being able to do that and not sending them away and going, Now sleep in your own bed. Because I've tried that, you know, with Otto before. it's like, No, you'll be fine. And then I find out that he's just been lying awake in his own bed, not able to go to sleep, which is like, you know. And so now he comes in and apologetic, bless him, like, dude, just come in.

Jo

Yeah, just it's okay.

Mark

You know, never apologise, just come in. You need me, you need me. This is it. The other thing we can do to be our child's safe person. This one I think is more with Jay is being an emotional outlet for them. When they are dysregulated and overwhelmed. Or they just need to be able to express themselves without fear of judgment. That's the crucial thing, isn't it? Like when Jay is furious, he needs to just shout and swear and just get it all out. And in the early days, I did not respond well to that. I did not like being shouted at. I did not like him saying awful things to me. And you know, if anyone has a PDA child, you will recognise this, of them just being awful. Because they just need to it's equalising behavior. It's saying the worst thing they can say at that moment in time because they need to you know, they feel shit, so they need everyone to feel shit. So it balances out. I guess is my reading of it, not a scientific interpretation, but that's how it feels. And doing that and being able to be that a sort of emotional punching bag sometimes and not Being pushed away by that, I think, is really important to them.

Jo

Do you have that with again, not so much with Dot? She is much more articulate with her emotions. So she will come to me and say, I feel sad and then we'll talk, okay, why are you feeling sad her brother, oh my lord, the names I've been called, the sort of explosive anger. And it took me a long, long time to recognize that His anxiety was coming out as anger and as this rage.

Mark

Yes, yes. It's difficult to attribute that to anxiety. Because you think you're not anxious, you're really confident.

Jo

Look at you, little shit. You're shouting at me and calling me a red-haired whore.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

But recognising that actually at the heart of that was anxiety really helped me not to take it personally. You know, no one wants to be called a red haired whore And it's also then what we are modeling in those moments. And what we have the opportunity to model is, I'm going to show up for you even if You shout and scream and call me every name under the sun, I'm going to love you anyway, and that nothing you can do will change the fact that I will love you exactly the way you are. And um it's not always easy.

Mark

It's really not.

Jo

No, it's not. Yeah, but it's it's a really important thing to be able to do because these kids aren't unconditionally loved by lots of people in their lives. Lots of people in their lives want them to you know, you just need to change and fit into this mold and be different. And we have the opportunity to be like, No, you exactly the way you are. I will show up and love that that little shit shouting at me.

Mark

I mean, in the outside world, I dare say some people would probably react quite badly to being called a red haired whore.

Jo

I mean, yeah, it's it's sub optimal.

Mark

It's not everyone's cup of tea. So, um yes, but you know, how many times in outside of your bubble Is he sort of expressing his emotional, you know, expressing anger to people? And it goes badly. It's received badly. He's, you know, because it's not an easy thing, you know. Because no one else really should have to put up with it. So having a place that he can do that without judgment, I think, is really important. And that's one of the tougher parts of being a you know, I'll have otto in my bed every time rather than well, yeah, it's a loving embrace rather than

Jo

But it's both stemming from the same thing, which is anxiety.

Mark

Yeah. So one of the things that I think is worth you know, you've mentioned a couple of times and I think is worth sort of zooming in on is that to be a safe person For your kids, no matter how that looks, as we've discussed lots of different ways that we can be their safe person, it's exhausting. It's really exhausting to constantly have to juggle all of this and to hold all of this emotionally and physically, I think. And I mean, I presume that you felt that with Dotty.

Jo

Oh god, yeah, we at times you just have that feeling. I used to feel quite claustrophobic, not often, but every now and then I just feel like I just need some space and that I'm doing that. I'd feel sort of like just, oh my god, oh my god. And that's okay. It's okay to feel that way. It's okay to acknowledge that. Of course it is, yeah.

Mark

It's understandable. It would be weird if you didn't.

Jo

I'd love to have an easy answer of and what you must do is I don't what you must do is just Get through it and get through it and get through it.

Mark

There's no easy answer to any parenting of neurodivergent kids, is there? And this claustrophobia you're talking about isn't just the physical one, it's just not just the physical presence. It's having to be there constantly, emotionally, and not having any downtime, not having that respite. So, you know, if we just bring it back to Lydia's email of going out. And still getting text messages. And you, you know, from with Dotty and you as well, still getting those text messages and those phone calls. And it's like this is just this is a me time that you know, you need it. That's what you need. And that's not really being prioritized

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And especially if they've been in your bed all night as well. So you're knackered.

Jo

And then they're there.

Mark

So you've got you're dealing with that as well.

Jo

And the moment you opened your eyes that morning, they were there going, What are we doing today? It's a it's a lot. Look, I can't give a glib, like and here's how you manage it. Here's what I can promise. Is that on the other side of that is the most incredible relationship. Dotty and I are so, so close now We and both my kids, we just have brilliant relationships because I showed up again and again and again. And I didn't always get it right. I wasn't always perfect. But I suppose that's the thing to hold on to, is they won't need you as intensely forever. And if you can hang in there, you will have these incredible relationships on the other side.

Mark

Did you feel sometimes that you didn't have that closeness because it was just too much and you were maybe reacting the bad way or you weren't able to hold all of that in all the time? Was there a time where you weren't as close as you are now?

Jo

I think we've always been close. I think if I'm really honest, there were times where I just felt so stifled and so kind of overwhelmed with the needs of both of the kids that Yeah, I would maybe feel a bit more closed off than I might have done. I don't know. I don't who knows? I've never had that experience of parenting a Neurotypical child.

Mark

Yes. I mean, because one thing that I'm sort of I I wonder and I I kind of hope is that even when they say really rough things You know, and there'll be an outburst, particularly from the PDAers when they're really, you know, frustrated and there's a bit of an outburst. I like to think It's probably for myself more than for them, that deep down they know that we're a safe person and that that actually that's not coming from a place of negativity but that they just know that they can say they can say it to us because we'll still be there.

Jo

Because yeah, because we will love them anyway. And yeah, we've built that solid foundation of you're okay. Just express yourself however you need to because we will still love you, you little toe rags.

Mark

Another thing I wanted to explore is that when you're your child safe person, there's a certain level of guilt that can come with that. as well in multiple ways. So for Otto, like I can't be there as much as he needs me to be. It's not possible. It's not possible for anyone to be there as much as an anxious child needs them to be. And there's an element of guilt Because the fact I can't be there doesn't mean that they don't still need me. And so you feel a little bit sometimes, and I know I do with Otte, that I feel like I'm letting him down a bit. I know, like, objectively that's not true, but it feels like sometimes when I'm not able to do all the things he wants me to do because I'm cooking. And I can't stop cooking to go and watch him play a video game or whatever. I have to say no to Otto a lot more Because he asks more of me. So I think constantly saying, not now, I can't do that now, but I will do it in, you know, 49 minutes or you know, like really specific. But I feel guilty about that sometimes. It's hard to live with that.

Jo

And I think we're only human, aren't we? And those feelings of guilt are human, but also the inability to meet these children's needs because the needs are so very intense, that's also quite human. I cannot physically be there constantly. It's just not possible.

Mark

Yes.

Jo

I think all we can do is try as best as we can to equip them and give them the tools to manage when we're not there, successfully or not. So there'll be times where they're more successful at managing that and times when they're less so. But that's all that we can do as humans is show up when you and just give them something for when you can't be there.

Mark

Yeah, and I think that's the yeah, that's the tricky thing, isn't it? I guess. At least, you know, with Otto, I'm in the house. At the time. So he knows that I'm still there. I think that that has a difference. Another element of guilt that I feel, and this is specifically just in a household of multiple neurodivergence. Is that sometimes having to give attention to the child that has the most anxiety, the most need for you to be there, means that I don't Get to spend that an equal amount of time with the other two who largely act as if they don't want me there most of the time, or largely act as if I'm you know, a passable diversion to their day. But if I'm not there, it's fine. But obviously That's that's difficult and because I know that they would like to spend more time with me, I think. Did you have that with With Dotty and George, because obviously Dotty was much more literally shuffling in between you and George to nudge him out of the way. Did you feel a bit bad about for like for George?

Jo

I felt bad that that so much of my time and attention was taken up. But honestly, I'm not sure if George cared. He's quite a laid back. I mean, you know, George, he's quite laid back. He's quite, you know It is what it is. And I think similarly to Jay in India, a lot of the time he'd be like, Well, you know, what are you doing? Why are you in my room? Get out. What is it you want?

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

So, yeah. I think, again, it's human to feel that guilt, to feel that, oh God, I'm not, you know, dividing myself equally among my children. But they they don't have equal needs. They don't, you know.

Mark

No, no, no, no, I guess. Sometimes it creates this sort of invisible hierarchy in the family where the child with the greatest need is prioritized. But then again, I get that with Jay when he's you know, dysregulated all of a sudden drop everything. It's Jay that needs the focus and, you know, and India similarly when India's gone Gone situationally mute on me, and I was like, Okay, we need to now deal with this. It's juggling it, it's plate spinning, isn't it? Oh, that one having a wobble. Quick, give it a bit of attention.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, it's really ticky. And I can imagine, you know, I'm in a household of multiple neurodivergents. I imagine it's probably a lot harder if you've got one neurodivergent and some neurotypicals. I don't know what that's like myself, but I can imagine that that's I know that you know, that that's a particularly difficult setup to navigate.

Jo

And yeah, the guilt that goes along with it must be yeah. I reckon Dotty would tell you that my attention was taken up by George a lot of the time because of his explosive kind of

Mark

Yeah, okay.

Jo

And the so yeah, any trip out in public would invariably end in some sort of explosion from George. So, yeah, she'd probably say, Well I think you'll find it was George taking up all the attention. I don't know. Maybe ask your three. Get them to do a poll.

Mark

Who would you? We can't win. Essentially, what we're saying is we can't actually win in this situation. Everyone feels neglected. Apart from us, we want to be neglected.

Jo

We'd love to be neglected.

Mark

I think one of the frustrations of being a child's safe person is that ultimately, as parents. I think our role is to try and equip our kids with the skills needed to function independently in the outside world. And obviously, because they're neurodivergent. The timeline of when that might happen, and sometimes even if that is possible, is different from that of neurotypical kids. So Sometimes that you but you can't help that desire to go, go on, you can you can do this, do this on your own. You want to see them operate independently in the world.

Jo

And the worry is that by having this really intense attachment from your child that somehow they're not equipped.

Mark

Yeah. So where does it become sort of de-skilling them almost by being that executive function?

Jo

I would say, and this might be a slightly left field I would take it back to. Do you know about attachment theory?

Mark

The kind of is that something that's widely I did psychology at A level, so I studied Lorenz.

Jo

And John Bowlby So attachment theory, put it in the show notes or something, but the idea that children need to form a healthy attachment to an adult caregiver in order to then go on and thrive in their adult lives. That's the sort of very, very paraphrased gist of it. Here's what's really interesting. What we know is that attachments are transferable. So I worked in fostering many, many, many years ago. And foster carers would form really loving bonds with children and then move them on. to adopters and the sort of um it's almost like counterintuitive, isn't it? It's like, well, if they really love their foster carer, how are they going to love their adopter? But they can transfer that attachment to someone else. So I guess what I'm saying in a really convoluted way is that by being our children's safe person in whatever way that is, and for me and Dotty, it was that very intense. attachment. Actually, we are equipping them to function independently because we are giving them the skills to form healthy relationships With other people.

Mark

As in, to give them the trust that other people can be there for them and love them unconditionally, or basically hold their dysregulation and not judge them. You're showing them that what that looks like.

Jo

That has to start with us because we're the initial caregivers. So definitely what I saw with Dot is as she got older, she was then able to form healthy relationships and have safe people in school and in college. And some of them will listen, no doubt. Shout out to Team Dotty over the years who have taken on That role of being her safe person when she's away from me, but without that foundation of Mum will show up and mum will keep showing up. And it doesn't matter what happens, mum will love me and be there for me. I would say she wouldn't have been able to trust outsiders.

Mark

Other people. Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, that's really useful to know. And I you know, it's it's understandable that we we have this desire to want them to be able to be independent But you can't force it, can you? You like you just like anything, right? Like anything with our kids, it's in their own time. And you know, it's really great to hear from your perspective. That Dotty has now been able to trust other people to do that with as well.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And that she's not sleeping in your bed every night now. which is great.

Jo

Not every night. I can't say it never happens.

Mark

And you are no longer having to fetch apple juice for her. She can get her own apple juice. Right. But that has to come over time and you know, you just have to you just have to sit with it and show up for them while they need you and then

Jo

And just know it won't be forever and it will ebb and flow.

Mark

Yeah, good to know. One of the other things that I really wanted to focus on, because this is something that I hear from a lot of different people. is the specific dynamic of when in a household, in a neuroshambolic household, only one of the parents is seen as a safe person. Because that is a really difficult dynamic to have to navigate. There's this imbalance, and I kind of wanted to look at that a little bit. Like we so we're in a fortunate situation in our household. Because both Tam and I are seen as safe people for the kids. Because we parent on the same page and we are pretty consistent. Like we're separated. And because of our unique setup, we do nesting. So we tag in and out of the same household. The kids are here. That's consistent. The parent comes in and out. They don't really give a shit which one it is. Which is like amazing. That's as it should be. Genuinely, we are literally interchangeable. Some sometimes they imagine that I was there for a memory that they were with Tam with and like it's yeah there's no sort of significant upheaval between us but and again I think it's because the house is consistent but also it's because we're parent on the same page So we have a consistency and a predictability of their routine, which means that when Tam and I are not You know, in the house, we do get respite. So I do get that downtime, which is great because I end up having to edit the Neuroshambles. It gives me time to work on this, right? But if neurodivergent kids don't have another safe person for them, that becomes incredibly a lot more intense. That sounds like what's happening with Lydia in her email because, you know.

Jo

And it was certainly the dynamic in our house. And yeah, it is Really hard to describe. It's incredibly intense. It's incredibly draining. It's I suppose what I would say to Lydia and to anyone else who's in that dynamic at the moment, that there is another adult in the household but that everything is kind of directed onto one of you, and that's, you know, not uncommon, is to actually recognize how much work that is. And you know, when it comes to what I wish I'd done way back then, I wish I'd recognized that that was actually really hard work and that that Basically, I'd have made Phil do all the cooking and housework, and I'd have recognised how exhausted I was and how draining it was, and I would have lent more on the other adult in the household to pick up some of the easy bits, some of the you know, could you do the supermarket shop this week? Because they let you know.

Mark

So so was it I'm quite into was Phil aware that he wasn't sort of being lent on as a safe person? Uh, by Dotty at that time?

Jo

Yes. I think we both very much knew that I was her focus and that it was me that she wanted and needed at all times. But I don't think either of us stopped to think about quite how tiring that was and quite yeah what that was taking out of me. Yeah. That's what I would say is just recognize that you are working extremely hard to manage a young person's needs and that you might need other people to take up some of the slack. And that's how it works.

Mark

Yes. And have that conversation of like, actually, this is how this feels to me. This is how much it's taking out of me. Yeah. Take some of the strain and do this or do this. Yeah, that's really good advice because they might not be able to take on the safe person role. That's a whole separate conversation of how the other parent Or the other adult in the household can become that safe person.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Because that's something.

Jo

I just don't know the answer to that.

Mark

No. Well, I did this. I did because very often The safe person is the person that first kind of gets it, right? Who first sort of understands about the neurodiversity and learns to accommodate and is the first person that sort of helps to support their child. So that's where when you talk about imprinting or attachment That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, you're safe, so therefore I'm sticking with you. And I very often, the vast majority of cases, that is the mum. I did a talk very recently in Bristol about this very thing, about how dads can show up better. And there's a whole bit about why we are late to the party. And I talked about this In the dad episode with Terry Lloyd as well, and that the mums are usually the first ones to get it, so therefore they're the safe person. And it's incredibly valuable having more than one safe person because that will be beneficial for the for the child, it'll be so beneficial to the other caregiver to give you some respite as well. But that's not always possible. So at the very least You know, do the washing up, dude. Put the bins out.

Jo

And Phil did, and he does. I would never kind of. But I think for both of us, we just didn't quite acknowledge, even to ourselves, quite intense that was and how much labor that was mentally physically it was really hard work yeah and if you had acknowledged it to yourself

Mark

I mean, I've met Phil. I know Phil. If you'd have communicated it to Phil, Phil would have been like, yeah, of course. Do you know what I mean? He wouldn't have been like, no, sort of, do it yourself. It's your job. You know, but because you didn't articulate that need. And because he didn't see this invisible load that you were carrying, yes, he couldn't step up because he didn't know.

Jo

Yeah. I took a therapist saying to me, 'cause I was kind of just saying to her, I just I'm so overwhelmed, I can't manage all of this. And she was going, Well, you know, could you get Phil to do more? And I was going, Well, he does a lot. And she said, um, Jo, there is a lot. And those three words kind of just made me go forward, kind of changed my life a little bit because I was like, oh yeah, there is a lot. And I think sometimes we get so used to parenting these incredible kids that we don't even acknowledge there is a lot, there is a lot of work here and yeah. Anyway, that's my wisdom for the day.

Mark

That's really useful. Now I have a first for Neuroshambles because this is the first ever episode where there are actually two guests, not just one. So for the second time in this episode, we're going to...

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

Now, when I originally discussed this topic with Jo, she mentioned that her daughter was keen to come on and talk to me about it as well. Obviously, I already know Dotty. So I jumped at the chance to have a chat with her, and I am delighted to be able to welcome her board. It's Dotty Matthews. How are you doing, Dotty?

Dotty

Hello. I'm very well. How are you?

Mark

I'm good.

Dotty

I'm good, thanks. Yeah, we just feel like I'm a little talk show.

Mark

Yeah, well, you know, it's just a chat. It's a pub chat without the pub. That's how I like to see it. So Obviously, you've been angling for an invite to Neuroshambles since episode one.

Dotty

Since before episode one. Since the camping trip a few months before, where you were like Kind of considering it.

Mark

Yeah, so you were like, Yes, I want to be on it. So this is my big moment. You finally ground me down, Dotty. I'm delighted, delighted to have you on. And thank you for agreeing to chat about this topic of the week. So obviously, your mum and I have discussed what being a safe person for our neurodivergent kids looks like, and you've been in the room at the time. listening to it. Have you got anything you want to respond to directly?

Dotty

I just can't believe how much he clocked me

Mark

What, in which way?

Dotty

When she was talking about how I used to come in the room and say, What are we doing today? I've been caught

Mark

No, but that's just, you know, that's just what you needed. You need it. It's like you just need that scaffolding. And then when you know that, it's like, ah, okay, fine. The reason that I'm really excited to talk to you is because very often I make a lot of assumptions about what makes it feeling Based on what I understand about neurodiversity and what people tell me. But I always find it really interesting to hear from the perspective of people who are going through this. of how it feels to them. So okay, so let's look at the bit where you were saying, okay, what have we got lined up? How did it feel to not know what that was?

Dotty

Um well, just really, I'm very much someone who thrives on routine and someone who needs structure and to know what I'm doing. So and also just I love my mum. I love just hanging out with her. So yeah, yeah. And that's kind of not knowing what the line up, the plan is, is very much like Well, what if we're doing this and this? And what if there's an opportunity to do this? And I miss it, and it's all just

Mark

So and again, it's kind of anxiety based. Right? I guess

Jo

Yes, absolutely.

Mark

Which is you know, how I imagine it is for Otto. Of having the sort of this yawning afternoon ahead of him and not knowing when we're going to do the next thing, is he needs to have that you know, in place so that he can be a bit less anxious. So it's interesting that you'd see things from a similar perspective. And like you're saying, like your mum is a wonderful human because she's funny and she's empathetic and she's non-judgmental. And I think I consider Jo one of my safe people as well. So but I'm interested in what it was specifically about Jo that made her your safe person. when other people in the household maybe weren't.

Dotty

Yeah, Phil.

Mark

Oh, no, I'm not... that's not me specifically targeting Phil because I I know Phil and Phil is wonderful.

Dotty

Is he?

Mark

Yes, he is.

Dotty

Okay.

Mark

Why was it Jo that you were particularly kind of drawn to?

Dotty

Well Me and her have always been really close, like, since I was little. You know, like as I guess all parents and their children are this is the thing. This must be really weird for anyone who doesn't experience this or for anyone who doesn't have a neurodivergent kid, 'cause they must be like, Well, yeah, of course your kids are attached to you

Mark

Yeah.

Dotty

But when you're autistic, it's so it's like she's a part of my soul.

Mark

Okay.

Dotty

It's like there's my heart and then she's also just like a little part of it as well. And I just know that just having someone that will always love me and will always be my person is very important to me.

Mark

And it and it was only Jo that you kind of felt would be able to yeah, pretty much, because as well as stuff like meltdowns where you have a meltdown

Dotty

And you say something that you shouldn't have said, or you do something that you shouldn't have done, I know that she will always still she will still be there after.

Mark

Yes.

Dotty

And that she will kind of the the thing that makes my mum different is that she will be much more understanding and much more she'll kind of know why it happens and be able to like be mature and talk to me about it and stuff. Whereas other people particularly my dad, are not great at that.

Mark

Yes, and that is, you know, I've spoken from a dad's perspective of how it's much harder for dads to get on board because Of the lots of different, you know, male parenting stereotypes, and we're usually kind of late to the party where we may have already kind of lost your trust to that degree, and it takes a lot to kind of win it back.

Dotty

Yeah, great, that's interesting.

Mark

Yeah, so you're gonna go to that the safest person there, I guess. Absolutely. Do you feel like your reliance on Jo, for want of a better word, has has reduced a little bit over time?

Dotty

Yeah, I'd say so. I'd say as I've gotten older, I can kind of be more independent and I can kind of Especially emotionally. I'm really good at kinda I'm very like self sufficient when it comes to emotions now. But when I was little, it was, I don't know what to do with this, this is too big for me.

Mark

You take here have my emotions sort them out, and yeah, and I guess that's also in terms of meltdowns. maybe you're you finding yourself having fewer meltdowns because you understand your neurotype more. So you can anticipate oh, this is I feel I'm feeling like there's a meltdown happening. You can have your own regulation strategies. Whereas when you were little, because certainly when mine, you know, with Otto and India don't really have that at the moment. So I have to be that parachute for them when they kind of feel like they're falling. Whereas you can you can pack your own parachute now a lot of the time.

Dotty

I guess well, for most little kids, I'm sure like not most like kids can't regulate themselves. Like, obviously, as you as my mum was talking about earlier, you that's kind of what a parent does. But then I was getting to be like eleven or twelve. And I was still like, just couldn't do it, which must have been difficult for her as well, because being an autistic girl, when I say emotions, I mean quite severe, like, mental health difficulties

Mark

Yeah.

Dotty

So I can imagine for my mum, me being like 12, coming up to her saying, Oh, I'm going to hurt myself now, must have not been not been very fun.

Mark

No, of course, but then you would she was a person that you trusted enough to be able to say that to, which is hugely important for both of you.

Dotty

It's a blessing and a curse.

Mark

Yes, but without that, you'd still be having those feelings. You just wouldn't be sharing it.

Dotty

Yeah, yeah. That's a good way to look at it.

Mark

Yeah, and the fact that your mum could hold that emotion and help you through that just then intensifies that relationship and that bond.

Dotty

Absolutely. Yeah.

Mark

Until eventually, you know, you start to learn other strategies, I'm guessing. And then you get to the point where, um, you know, Jo alluded to earlier that you you don't only have one safe person now.

Dotty

Yes.

Mark

Which I'm really interested in because we all you know, as parents, it goes without saying we will be there for our kids no matter what. Like absolutely. However, if we can outsource some of that to other people sometimes. Great.

Dotty

It's like you're taking what what the kids handed you and being like, you take it now.

Mark

Yeah, but it's kind of you doing that. Now you're you're the person that's going to go, well, actually, I In school or college, for example, did you have people that you would see as your safe people?

Dotty

Yes, absolutely. I had teachers specifically my secondary school, I was in a unit for autistic kids and people who needed some more help. And the people in there were just absolutely incredible. They were just my people.

Mark

Right.

Dotty

Which I I can imagine was because then sometimes there would be boundaries that I struggled to see what the line was. So I would be telling them things that you probably wouldn't tell a school professional.

Mark

Right.

Dotty

But because they were my safe people, I didn't quite It's a really like interesting one because, yeah, I definitely felt it, but the way I went about it probably wasn't wasn't great to be honest.

Mark

Okay. So you were maybe oversharing sometimes.

Dotty

Yeah.

Mark

But again, that's an important thing, you know, and I'm I'm sure working with neurodivergent kids They understand that and they appreciate that like I know that Tam works with a lot of neurodivergent kids as well. And understanding neurodiversity, I know that, you know, that Tam is a trusted person to a lot of people. And that's really important. And Tam definitely kind of acknowledges that and respects that. It's not like, whoa, okay, that's too much. Sorry, you're not going to tell me that again, are you? No, I think it's important.

Dotty

Yeah.

Mark

As Jo said, it's a blessing to be a safe person for someone. And it's a yeah, yeah. The other thing I'm kind of interested in, because obviously, we again as parents, we want our kids to be independent To be able to navigate the world without us having to be there, not because we don't want to be, but because one day we're not always going to be, right? So, it's important for you to have those skills. I was just wondering if you were you conscious of wanting to be more independent, or was it just projection from us? It's really wishful thinking from you that you know, just because I can't see Otto ever wanting to leave home. I still don't want to leave home. Okay, okay, fine.

Dotty

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. Actually, no, no. Okay. I guess It kind of depended on where my mental health was at. So when I was about 14, most 14-year-olds are planning Going to college and A levels and all of that stuff, whatever, whatever, GCSEs and all that. But at that time, because I was really struggling My brain was just going, I'm going to live with my mum forever and she's going to look after me forever. And I didn't really have any desire to be independent because I just couldn't I couldn't imagine not having that.

Mark

Yes, because she's so important, I guess. And as I say, Otto is insistent that he's going to live here forever. And, you know, as I'm sure Jo is, I'm fine with that. You know, I will do whatever I need to with my kids. You know, and Jay I mean, India tells me that she's going to move out when she's twelve Which you can imagine, right? I can't see it. I'm just going to get a note on the kitchen table one day. I'll find she's just packed a bag full of flapjacks and gone off.

Dotty

Yeah.

Mark

But obviously, it's you know, it's different for each of our new urgent kids. So are you kind of conscious of when there was a time where you you I mean, you're saying not I'm not not of when you're leaving home, but just sort of going, no, I can do this. I don't necessarily need to be so constantly in contact.

Dotty

For me, it was when I started having those needs met in other places that weren't just one person. So my mum, she provides emotional support and practical support and this, this, this, that and the other. But what helped me was when I was able to find places like having healthy relationships with my friends where they're able to help me with things.

Mark

Yes.

Dotty

Or having someone at school help me with something more like practical. It was when I kind of started finding it in like little pieces in other places that I was able to kind of be like, okay, well, now that that's sorted out, I can deal with the rest of it myself.

Mark

Okay. No, that makes perfect sense. And I guess that's you know, a lot of that is leaning on your friends and finding those friends, I guess, because it's you know, I'm going to make the assumption that they're neurodivergent.

Dotty

Yes, you have met my best friend.

Mark

Yes, I have. Do we need to give them a shout out?

Dotty

We do. We actually do because they were also with me when this podcast was first being floated, isn't it? And they were absolutely desperate. So Andy, if you're seeing this I did it first . Screw you. You snooze, you lose. You should have been more persuasive.

Mark

However, on the plus side. Andy, you are considered a a safe person for Dotty. So you are on honoured.

Dotty

But yeah, finding that those relationships, those friendships was really difficult. Because or having a need to have people who are safe people can result in, obviously, dependency Which my mum can handle, my friends when I was 14 couldn't.

Mark

Yes, okay. Yeah.

Dotty

So when I was younger I would have I wouldn't say as extreme as it is with my mum, because obviously like she's my mum, you know? But when I was fourteen, I would have friends that I would feel were the centre of my universe, they were everything, they could help me with anything, and that would result in me becoming quite I don't quite know how to describe it without sounding like a terrible person. But that would lead to me becoming quite dependent and like kind of possessive and kind of you're my person and you do that doesn't make you sound like a terrible person at all.

Mark

No. I mean like I get it. And we get where it's coming from because you you are looking for other safe people in an unsafe world. And you know that Jo isn't able to be in class with you, which would bring its own problems, I'm absolutely sure. So, you know, you're looking for other people to To be safe people, then you're making assumptions that someone's a safe person, then they can show you they're not. That can, I presume, be quite harmful.

Dotty

Absolutely.

Mark

And was there an element Of masking at play there, like at at school? Did you sort of try and keep it in, or were you just like, This is me?

Dotty

And then they it kind of depends on the person. So when I had those friends that I thought were as because I struggle to see what like the lines of relationships are, I struggle to know what's appropriate to say to A close friend versus someone who sits next to you in class. Like, I struggle to know what conversation you would have with different types of people. So, I would see them as being like my mum as someone I could say anything to, so I would be unmasked. So, with those people, I would be 100% me, very overbearing, very, probably not very pleasant to be around, to be honest. And it just wasn't wasn't great.

Mark

Okay, but then when you found other people who were able to hold that and you know, and conversely that you were able to hold their authentic selves

Dotty

Yes.

Mark

So that you can lean on each other, then your reliance on Jo became a little bit less.

Dotty

Yes. But the thing that made my mum just solidified as my person was I would come home from an absolute fucking disaster of socialization on my part. I'd just really fucked it up. I'd really been overbearing and overwhelming. And she would say, That's okay. Here's what you did wrong I still love you.

Mark

Okay.

Dotty

And then it was just okay again because she said it was okay. And then it was okay.

Mark

And then it's that's about being that, as we were talking about earlier, being the translator almost. Okay. Oh, I see what happened here. It's this. Oh, well, try again.

Dotty

My mum is so used to that. I'll come up to her with like a text and be like, What does this mean? And then she's able to kind of Translate it, like you said.

Mark

Yeah, which is great. And I think, you know, as we've talked about, all of those different ways that we can be a safe person for neurodivergent kids and The more that we can do that, the better it is. And the more equipped you are to then identify those traits in other people and go, okay, you can do a bit of this and then you can outsource it a little bit and become more independent.

Dotty

Is I would say the key thing.

Mark

Yeah. Um, the other thing I wanted to ask you I so this was sort of in part triggered by an email that I had from a listener, Lydia, who wrote in about her 13-year-old suspected neurodivergent daughter. And obviously, you I was a 13-year-old. You were a 13-year-old.

Dotty

I was going to say, I don't really think about it, but I was.

Mark

You have more recently been a 13-year-old girl navigating this. And I think, you know, from speaking to Jo, there's a lot of similarities in terms of that with the constant texting and phoning when they're away from you. So firstly, I wanted to kind of get a sense of when Jo wasn't there, how did that feel to you?

Dotty

I remember it just felt like I was completely exposed and unprotected from the world.

Mark

Right, okay.

Dotty

And it was like, I don't even really know how to describe it, because I'm going to just sound insane if I say this. But it just felt like all of these horrible things were going to happen because she wasn't with me. If that doesn't make me sad, no, no, no, no, not at all.

Mark

It's because that's anxiety, isn't it? Right? And anxiety is, you know, your nervous system is triggered. your survival instinct kicks in and you're just reaching for that reassurance that is no not there, despite the fact that there are other people in the house. You've not been abandoned in a ditch somewhere. You're at home with your stuff around you and other people.

Dotty

My dad was like sat next to me on the sofa. Yeah.

Mark

Yes, but he wasn't that safe person. And I'm not, just to be clear, we're not saying that Phil is unsafe, right?

Dotty

We love Phil.

Mark

He's a magnificent human, but he didn't tick all of the boxes that we've we've discussed in terms of providing that scaffolding and the emotional regulation support.

Dotty

He could do practical stuff. He could make me food. He could buy me things. That was his big thing for a bit. Whenever I was upset, he'd be like, Do you mean to do me to buy you a game? Do you want to spend some money on you? He could provide the practical stuff, but it was the emotional stuff that I needed at that point. I needed someone to be like Talk to me about my feelings and kind of which my dad is much better at now. I will say he has come on leaps of accounts.

Mark

But back then. And what do you think has changed then for in that sense? Is it him just having a clearer understanding of Neurodivergency, or specifically your neurotype.

Dotty

I think in my family, it was more just to do with stuff that was going on at the time. But I definitely say that being a 13-year-old girl, you do just kind of hate your dad. Be when India gets older, get ready. Okay, we're not you're not prepared for what's going on.

Mark

I'm really not prepared for that. No, I can't.

Dotty

I mean, I yeah, I think As I got older and he kind of got used to me being an older person and like a not like a little child he became much better at listening 'cause I became better at expressing things. As I got older, I became much better at being like, This is what I need, this is what I need from you

Mark

Right. So maybe reacting with less emotion and more sort of this is what I need, you more clear about what you need rather than just pouring out all the emotion and expecting him to read between the lines.

Dotty

Which this was the thing, because my mum can read between the lines. She can do that. So with me and my brother, she is incredible at just she can Look at us, and she can just know what the problem is. But my dad could not do that, and I kind of struggled to get to grips with that.

Mark

Yes, and you couldn't articulate at that age because you're still working your own neurotype out, right?

Dotty

I know, yeah.

Mark

That's really interesting. So the final thing I was going to ask is in response to the email that Lydia wrote in Well, take questions really. Do have you got any advice for for Lydia specifically? Because, you know, she's feeling this sort of o almost overwhelm of her own about being this her daughter's safe person? Have you got any advice for Lydia? And then I'm going to ask you if you've got any advice to her thirteen year old daughter. So let's go for Lydia first.

Dotty

So last time I checked, I don't have any children. you know, might need small. Well, I need to get on that again, but as as far as I'm aware, I don't have children, so I don't quite understand from a parent's point of view. I can only empathize. And obviously, looking back at my younger self and what I put my mum through. I know that it must not be easy. But I I genu I don't really know what advice I'd give other than just it does get better. Being thirteen is shit for anyone, but it is extra shit if you are neurodivergent. It's just shit times a thousand. So I think all you can really do as a mother is just keep being there and keep showing up. Of course, have bout like my mum with the bath. that's helped me having one thing that's like, okay, I know that this is not my time, this is her time.

Mark

Yes.

Dotty

That's really helped me. And then also just showing up and not I it must be really easy to get frustrated, and it must be really easy to want to say, just fucking leave me alone

Mark

I don't think any parents ever would get to that stage, but it is.

Dotty

Oh, my mum.

Jo

100%

Dotty

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.

Mark

Okay.

Dotty

She's said that on quite a few occasions, I'm going to be honest with you.

Mark

Okay, but I think, you know, Jo is uniquely expressive.

Dotty

Yeah, you need you need because you need to give it to it.

Mark

But yeah, there's definitely an element of just like I just need I just need some rest.

Dotty

I think to just not let her know or not show that you are struggling with it because that would just make the anxiety a million times worse.

Mark

Yeah. And then the other the only the last question was about what you might say to the 13-year-old daughter who is going through this feeling of overwhelm and this intense anxiety when her mum isn't around.

Dotty

What I would say to the thirteen year old daughter is being a teenager is absolutely awful. It is just so shit. And finding that one thing that kind of makes it feel better, and then having that thing not be there, is just it it feels like Like the world is being ripped away from you. But what I can say is that level of anxiety does not last forever. and that you will find ways of coping with it and you will find ways of and I don't know what those will look like because I don't I'm not you, I don't know you. But having been an autistic thirteen year old girl who sounds very similar to you I can tell you that you will find your safe your safety and your happiness and your regulation in other places, and also you are very loved.

Mark

Oh, that's a lovely thing to say. That's really helpful. Thank you, Dotty. And again, it's like you can't just switch it off. You can't go, just don't be so anxious. It's just like have you thought about just just not yeah have you thought about just chilling the fuck out um it's not gonna help But yeah, I think the sort of the overall theme of this is it will pass and there are multiple different

Dotty

ways that That's not to say that it's not really shit.

Mark

No, no, no, no, no, not at all. For both the mum and the daughter, it's hard and it's exhausting. But if you can sit through it together and come out of the other side of it, then everyone is going to be in a better place. I think

Dotty

Amen to that.

Mark

Awesome. All right. Thank you so much, Dotty, for coming on and being my first ever non-parent guest of Neuroshambles. I've broken many boundaries today.

Dotty

What can I say? I'm just like a trend setter.

Mark

You are.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, this is time where we're going to look at the positives because I think. The fact that your child has a safe person at all is testament to the fact that as a parent, you're doing a good job, right? If you are a safe person for your child. You are so important to them, and you are showing up for them in many ways. And it's a special thing. because you get it, right? And they trust you. And I don't think that should ever be underestimated in a world that is particularly challenging for our  neurodivergent kids. Also, as a positive, secretly, Jo, admit it, it is quite nice to be wanted.

Jo

And also, I put on my notes, we all went out last weekend. How many other parents get to go on nights out with their nineteen and twenty three year olds and just have a massive laugh? Yes. Have that sort of most nineteen and twenty three year olds would be like

Mark

Yeah, they want nothing to do with their parents. Whereas actually the fact that yeah, I think that's the thing, isn't it? That you know, when kids start to become teenagers, they want to go as far away from their parents as possible. And that's quite difficult for other parents that I know who have now got teens and like, you know, feel like they're being rejected. But there's no fear of that with you, Jo. No fear of that whatsoever.

Jo

And how lucky am I, though?

Dotty

The first time I ever went clubbing, it was with her. Oh, yeah. Which I think most like people my age would dread to admit that.

Mark

I can imagine going troubling with Jo, she is far from a safe person to be with.

Jo

Next morning we woke up and we were looking through photos and there were just reams of photos of me with other young people like that. And I did not have a clue who any of them were.

Dotty

You weren't being safe to them. You were like that weird old woman.

Jo

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

So there's lots of positives from this. It's hard. It is hard, but you know, you build that close relationship that will Last that has a longer shelf life, I think, which is lovely.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions now. These are the people or organizations that are doing wonderful things in the world of neurodiversity. Have either of you got a neurodiversity champion? For us. Dotty, you have one.

Dotty

My one is literally personal to just me.

Mark

Okay.

Dotty

But my neurodiversity champion is my boyfriend's mum.

Mark

Okay.

Dotty

Because she is a absolutely wonderful woman. But what she started doing is she started sending me before I go over, she started sending me, like, what dinners she's going to make that week. Oh, which food. So she will send me, like, uh On Sunday we're having this, on Saturday we're having this. And then she'll also say that she's going to buy chicken nuggets and pizza, even though no one else in the house really eats them just in case I don't like what she's cooking. So that is great.

Mark

And have you communicated that to her? Or is she just sort of has she got any experience with neurodiversity?

Dotty

So she was a childminder for a really long time, which involved working with lots of autistic kids. So she knows what she's talking about And she is also just wonderful and a very nice person. So she is a champion.

Mark

Massive shout out to Dotty's boyfriend's mum.

Dotty

You know who you are, Diva.

Mark

Jo, do you have any Neurodiversity Champions for us?

Jo

I do. So I have very recently had to move My Tuesday Club. Formerly Sunday Club. Formerly the club formerly known as Sunday Club is now Tuesday Club, and we've been in the same venue for seven years. And the venue closed down. So I had to move my little band of gremlins. I mean, God knows I love those kids, but they're they're a lot. They are a lot. But anyway, we moved to the Loxdale Center, which is a English language centre in Portslade, and it's in this like stately home. They have been So welcoming and so incredible. And they've even sent emails saying, We love having you here. And I'm like, what?

Dotty

What?

Jo

Have you mistyped the email address? And yes, so they are my neurodiversity champions of the week just for welcoming us and bending over backwards to make it a really smooth transition.

Mark

Amazing. Yeah, I'll definitely give those a shout out.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins now. These are the things that in a neurotypical family will seem no great shakes, really, not a big deal, but for a neuroshambolic family, massive wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins for us, Jo? I do, and it's Dotty related. Okay.

Jo

I think on a previous episode, Mark, I have, I think, shown you Dotty's lists of foods she will and will not eat.

Mark

Yes, you have, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jo

This past weekend, my superstar of a daughter tried Chicken tikka massala  and mango chutney.

Dotty

I did. I did. I did. We went to a very well, me and my friend went to a very fancy Indian restaurant. And I was very nervous because I don't like spicy food. And then I just said, fuck it. And I just did it. And it was really good.

Mark

Was it tasty?

Dotty

It was really good.

Mark

So you've added a safe food? Well, specifically from that restaurant.

Dotty

Yes. So unless you're willing to get it delivered from this place.

Mark

Okay. But well done. Yeah. That's a that's a huge thing. Yeah, nice. Thank you. Nice win.

Jo

I'm leaving now. Are you going? I'm bored. That kind of ruins the continuity somewhere.

Mark

No, it's fine.

Jo

It's on me. It's real.

Mark

Thanks, Dotty. I've got a tiny epic win, and this is the story of India in the school play, right? Because India sort of wants to be famous. This is a thing. She's not really thought about how or why, but she just wants to be famous. And so she was in a school play, and she was asked to play the part of a frog. And she's getting increasingly anxious about it ahead of the day because and I like And and I didn't know why, and then she managed to explain it to me, is that they have to wear headbands with eyes on to make them look like frogs. She didn't like the headband, it was kind of itchy and she didn't think it looked frog-like enough. So instead, she really wanted to wear her bright green stretchy body sock. You know, the ones the the zippy stretchy body socks that like help to regulate our autistic kids, right? She loves it. It's like being in a massive pillowcase, right? So she really wanted to wear that. And so I spoke to the school and I spoke to a teacher about it. and he was super accommodating and he let her wear it. So amongst a sea of children all wearing frog headpants, India is wearing like this bright green body sock in the middle of the stage. And but as soon as she knew she could wear that, no more anxiety, she did the play, and also loads of people complimenting her on her costume. It was just like, that looks amazing. So she was super proud of it when she told me afterwards.

Jo

Oh, that's wonderful.

Mark

So that is a tiny epic win for me. All round. Absolutely living the role.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, so what the flip moments now, these are the moments. These are the things that our neurodivergent kids will do or say that will completely flummox us. Which I always love. Have you got any what the flip moments, Jo?

Jo

I am looking forward to hearing yours.

Mark

Okay, well, I've got a few. So Starter from Jay was, I don't know what he was thinking. He was sort of drifting off and staring into the middle distance. And then he just turned to me and went, In olden times, I could definitely see myself as a pillager. Just like, where was his brain at that moment in time?

Jo

You know this is where his frame was, it was in olden times.

Mark

I know, but then he's not back in imagining him sort of weighing up whether it's a feasible job option. Yeah, I think I've got what it takes. Yeah. Complete disregard for morality. A can do attitude. And a total disregard for health and safety. Yep, I've got it. It's in the bag. Another one from India. Is that we went swimming recently and I bumped into a friend in the swimming pool. Not physically bumped into him. I saw him in the swimming pool. And that's always a bit weird because you don't expect to just bump into some account.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, but we swam, it was we're swimming, you know, I was with India and I bumped into him and oh, hello and and he said hello to me and we had a little chat and India was a little way off and then she swam up to me Very loudly, she said, Daddy, who the hell is that? I was like, Okay. You know, no zero filter whatsoever. Just like literally say what you're thinking, love. You know, who the hell is that? But I can only, you know, I can see why she was confused. Neither of us are expecting to be in this situation. So reasonable. I just explained who it was and she sort of swam off.

Jo

And was your friend okay with being asked?

Mark

I mean, he didn't have much choice, did he? This is us, dude. No, he's fine. He he gets it, I think. My final What the Flip moment is directly related To the tiny epic win of India in the frog costume. So we had a bit of a debrief afterwards because she was getting so anxious. About wearing this frog costume, and I was like, Look, I will ask your teacher. And then we had a debrief, and I went, Look, you see, if you can tell me what you need, I will do everything I can to accommodate that. You know, you just need to tell me. And then she seemed sort of absently thinking about something else. And you just turned and went, Can I lick you? And I went, uh, no. And then she said, You said you'd fight to accommodate my needs.

Jo

You were owned there.

Mark

I went Yeah, good point. Okay, I had to. I had to let her lick me . I got no choice.

Jo

So was that a need? Or was it a.

Mark

I don't know, but it was like, I just had to respect her hustle.

Jo

You had to yes, yes,

Mark

you do sometimes you just have to yield, so I did. Okay, that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Jo, thank you so much for coming on and talking to me about your experience of being Dotty's safe person. And I would thank Dotty directly in person, but she at one point went, I'm bored of this and walked off. So she's not here to thank in person, but I will thank audibly Dotty. Thank you so much. For taking part and being our first ever non-parenting guest of Neuroshambles. You've broken some ground there. Thank you also to Neuroshambles listeners for continuing to download and spread the good word and for saying nice things on the socials and in reviews. Could always do with more reviews if you fancy leaving one, because that will help to encourage other people to listen to it. Please drop a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can also follow me on the socials, on Instagram, or Facebook, or TikTok. But other than that, I think all that remains for me to say is have a nice life.