Raising SEND kids: the dads’ perspective | Terry Lloyd

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 51 of Neuroshambles. As always, it's a pleasure to have some moments of your very precious time, Neuroshamblers. I know first hand how tricky it is to do anything for yourself in a Neuroshambolic household, so I'm absolutely honored that once more you're choosing to spend that time with me. Hopefully, you're going to be well rewarded as I've got another cracking episode ahead with a long awaited topic of the week. We'll also be looking at some more Neurodiversity Champions, tiny epic wins, and A couple of what the flip moments that genuinely had me crying with laughter. So look out for that. All right, what are we waiting for? Let's have it.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So, this week's guest is someone I was first introduced to back in November 2024 when we both collaborated on a book called The Journey into Send Fatherhood. Which was a book that had 14 chapters, each written by a different dad of neurodivergent kids, and giving an unfiltered perspective of our unique experiences. While we were writing it, there was a pretty lively WhatsApp chat going on at the time, and I made a mental note to try and get him on as a podcast guest when he wasn't frantically trying to finish his own chapter of the book. So here we are. He also appears on the socials regularly as the husband of the wonderful Lisa Lloyd, otherwise known as ASD with a G and T, who was a Neuroshambles guest back in episode 25. I am delighted to be able to welcome to the show it's Terry Lloyd. How you doing, Terry? I'm all right.

Terry

Can we please refer to me as just the husband? That would be better for me.

Mark

The husband.

Terry

Thank you.

Mark

Yes. I have noticed you creeping into the socials more and more recently.

Terry

Well, they happen like in the the room that I'm in the most. So you have to hover and know like I was just I was innocently ironing today and I got dragged into something about my balls. So there we go.

Mark

With any neurodivergent household, you just got to go with a flow, don't you?

Terry

Just roll with it.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Terry

Okay, this is happening. Cool. Okay, let's go.

Mark

So for people who aren't aware of the setup that you have at home, because obviously Lisa took us through it last time. Just remind us of the neurodivergencies at play in your household, Terry. Okay.

Terry

So my son, Finn, has been diagnosed with autism. My daughter also has autism. She's we have a number of additional sort of subgenres, shall we say, of autism.

Mark

Bonus features.

Terry

Bonus features, yes. Yes. Extended extra content for her. And my wife also has been diagnosed with autism, and I've diagnosed her with ADHD just because of her ping pong consciousness is something that we have to work with.

Mark

I love that phrase. I had to edit uh our conversation and she definitely has ADHD.

Terry

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

But you are an undiagnosed neurotypical, would you say?

Terry

I don't... Lisa's convinced. I think I just have some things that I like. Some things, some ways that I like. To be, and when things get in the way of that, it vexes me.

Mark

And uh, yeah, it's fine.

Terry

That's that's it, that's it, that's all it is.

Mark

Well, uh, yeah, so thanks for introducing me to your setup, Terry. Um, there's Lots I want to cover in this episode, so let's crack on with it.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, this is an episode that I've been wanting to do for quite a long time now. Because it's a topic that I don't think is talked about a great deal, and it's one that's particularly close to my heart, and that is what it's like to parent neurodivergent kids from a father's perspective. Because for many reasons, I think dads of SEND Kids go through a very different journey to the mums. So I wanted to highlight some of the particular challenges that men face when learning how to parent their neurodivergent kids, and maybe try and unpick why that is. I will add a disclaimer here that I'm aware that what we're talking about doesn't just apply to men and dads. Obviously, gender roles and parenting dynamics come in all shapes and sizes, so it would probably be more appropriate to talk about secondary caregivers. And of course, that is not uniquely restricted to men. People of all gender identities are also included in that. That said, I think it's fair to say that what we're going to be discussing in this episode is predominantly experienced by dads, so that's the broad distinction I'm choosing to make at this point, if only to save me having to tie myself in knots, having to caveat everything that we talk about. So forgive me for that, but it's just going to make things a lot easier. Okay, now that bit's out of the way, let's wade into it, Terry. I think we should kick things off by acknowledging that in nearly all cases That I've experienced and that I've talked to people about. When it comes to realizing that our kids are neurodivergent, dads are almost always late to the party.

Terry

Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think that's extremely fair to say. I mean, I was late for a number of reasons. I think some of it, and I've spoken to Lisa about this, I think some of it is. We just don't spend as much time. Usually again, I'm making vast generalizations. We are usually the primary breadwinner with usually the one that goes back to work. And we just don't see a lot of the children's development and their interactions with peers and their growth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that and the other.

Mark

We just don't see any of that. That is true that... because obviously we'd spend less time with the kids typically. As I say, you know, that is a generalization, but typically dads spend less time with the kids in the early years. for a a number of reasons. I mean, there's, you know, the fact that mums typically get maternity leave and paternity leave is It's probably not as widely taken. So they're around in the early years. And there's also, you know, frustratingly, the gender pay gap, which we have to acknowledge that men are fucked up. But men tend to be earning more, so therefore it makes more financial sense for the dads to work more. So This typically then means that the mums spend more time with the kids and they have more evidence to go on.

Terry

Yeah, 100%. They're immediately Immersed in the world of childcare, if you know what I mean. They're going to groups, they're seeing other kids of the same age For me, I sort of I had society's view of what kids do, and that was it. Yes, that was all I knew. I sort of had I had this is how kids are Just sort of imposed upon me by media and I've never no idea. I've seen kids on TV. They're all maniacs, right?

Mark

So you've got nothing to go on.

Terry

That's right. And whenever you interact with kids. They're running around. It's usually other people's kids that are out of the house and they're running around and being crazy.

Mark

And it's like, well, you know, kids do weird stuff. Do you know what I mean?

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

And I think especially when it's your first kid, you've got nothing to compare it to.

Terry

Your point of reference is your child.

Mark

Yeah, and it's like, well, that's perfectly reasonable. I mean, it's perfectly normal. It's a bit odd, but then kids are.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Right. Also, you mentioned sort of seeing them around other kids. And I think that's a crucial one. Is that we, as you say, we're parachuted into our home environment and the kids there, and you know, that's fine. You've only got them as a frame of reference, but When the mums take them to toddlers' groups or they take them to soft play or something like that, they start to see our children interact with their peers and people of the same age and they start to notice that difference. Whereas we as the dads don't have that context early on.

Terry

No, I think Lisa was very like looking back at it now, obviously, at the time you're in it, you don't really. You don't notice it's happening until afterwards. But at least we're just suddenly a part of this network of other mums. Yes. Some of those mums Had already had, like some of those mums that had kids the same age already had kids that were older. Yes. Okay. So they're suddenly connected to this network of Parenting is suddenly a part of this, and they've got all these connections and all these points of reference suddenly flooded with all this information. And we've still got, it's my little baby, that's all it is, and that's all we've got.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

But they're immediately their phone reference is magnitude wider than ours, almost immediately.

Mark

Yeah. You know, for transparency, I spent a day a week parenting in the early days. So I worked for I worked four days and I had a day I say off. Obviously, it wasn't off. It's harder than work. But I had a day with with Jay in the early days. So I take him to toddler groups. So I did start to notice it. And I think that made a a a kind of a difference when it came to having those conversations later on. But I will say that it did take me a lot longer. to to notice that. I think maybe uh another part of that is that there's an element of denial there, I think For, and I don't know if that's a typically male thing or a dad thing of just not wanting to admit that there's a vulnerability there.

Terry

There is obviously an argument, and I think it probably does come into play that it is a sort of a masculist thing where it's my child. Of course they're going to be okay. Of course everything's going to be right 'cause they're my child. Geezer geezer bloke. There's there is, I think, an element of that, but I do think some of it does come from it's not so much I don't know if it's necessarily denial if as much as it's just you will always believe that something is normal until proven otherwise.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

In that circumstance, you'll always perceive what you have seen as normal. Things become normalized ridiculously quickly for you.

Mark

Yes, but where that comes into problems is when your partner or the other parent is saying, I think there's something a little bit different. And that's where, you know, with certainly it took me a lot longer to see that than Tam. So Tam would say you know, I think socially he's really struggling. And I didn't see that. I was like, nah, he's really independent, you know, like, because I'd see him at a social um like a toddler group and uh what you'd do is you'd sit them all at uh in a in a toddler group what they would have at the end is they'd have a story or a sing song and everyone would sit in a big circle. And all the kids would sit on their grown-ups' laps, right?

Terry

You need to tell me a story I already know, but yeah, Go on.

Mark

Right. Jay did not sit on my lap.

Terry

Right, right. I'm not listening to this shit.

Mark

No.

Terry

Bye.

Mark

No. If he was going to sit on anyone's lap, it was the person leading the group. Right? He'd march over there and just plonk himself down. I'm looking like some kind of on my own going

Terry

I do have a child here. That one's mine over there.

Mark

I'll get some very funny looks from the mums.

Terry

I didn't just turn up, okay? I'm not just here for the vibe.

Mark

So he'd go and plonk himself on their lap. Either that or he'd just wander around the middle of the circle. doing his own thing in his own little world. And, you know, this is.

Terry

That's exactly what Finn did. He just, I'm not, I'm not. This is nothing, yeah.

Mark

You do you guys

Terry

If this is if this is what you want to spend your time doing, that's up to you. I'm gonna go over there because some cool blocks over there

Mark

Not my bag, guys.

Terry

I'm sure I saw some Lego in the bag, so

Mark

Yeah. So in the early days, I put that down to just like social confidence. I was like, you know, he's not going to go along with the crowd, he's independent, right? He's just doing his own thing.

Terry

Because you do that work to normalize it. Yeah. And that's what you do. You just do that work to normalize their To normalize the behavior because you don't have a lot of points of reference, and you don't want to believe that. You know, you don't want to yeah, you kind of just, you know, you if you've got the option of believing there's something that is at the time has connotation of negativity or something that's positive, you will always choose the positive answer.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

It's not that they've they're struggling socially They don't need to be part of that because they're like you say, 'cause they're independent, because they're strong willed. They don't need that. It's not that they can't do it. They don't want it.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're choosing to opt out. And I love that. But then Tam sort of came to me with these concerns early on. And I just brushed it off. Like, I didn't completely dismiss it. I didn't go, like, nah, there's nothing wrong with him. You're raving mad. But I was just like, it's a bit early to tell. You know, let's not jump to conclusions. Let's see how this pans out.

Terry

I was exactly the same. Are you are you sure you're not just overcomparing? Because this is the other thing as well, and this is where a bit of misogyny does come in. This is from society generally. is, you know, mums get a bit hysterical, don't they? A bit dramatic.

Mark

A bit emotional.

Terry

Bit emotional. Exactly, yeah. Emotions are all over the place. Don't you know, take it with a pinch of salt. That comes to you from the outside.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely.

Terry

And it's that sort of simulacrum of what mums are like. And it's the same as this simulacrum of what kids are like.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

This sort of. Expectation that you don't even realize you've sort of absorbed.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

And I did exactly the same thing. I was like, look, I know things because especially because Lisa was struggling at the start. I don't think she'd be. Have a problem with me, saying that. She was struggling a bit at the same time.

Mark

Yeah, I think Lisa's talked about that.

Terry

Yeah, I was like, look, I know how you're feeling. I know that you're out of sorts and you're looking for a reason. That you're out of sorts and understand why you're reaching for these things. But kids are kids, they grow up, don't they? I said all the things. No, but yeah. All the things. They develop in their own time. Give him a chance. You know, you're thinking I said all the things. And I, because, yeah, some of it's denial, but some of it is, you know, this sort of. Weird sort of osmotic absorption of a perception.

Mark

But that's the thing though, right? Because we're going, oh, let's just let's wait for more evidence. It's like That's only because we don't have the evidence that they have. They've got the evidence in spades.

Terry

That's exactly it.

Mark

Wait till I have more evidence.

Terry

I have all this evidence. No, no, no, no, no. That's. That's you. I need that evidence. And I'm I'm not making any effort to get that evidence. I'm not saying, do you know what, I'll take over that, I'll have a couple of weeks off work I'll get stuck in. I'm just going, no! No. That'd be silly.

Mark

I haven't seen that, so it's not happening. Which, obviously, you know. Well, from a mum's perspective, is incredibly hard. Like, I only realize, sort of, in hindsight, how how difficult that is for the mums to have these concerns and they come to you with this fear and this uncertainty and they have they're met with this disbelief, I guess, that well, this you're invalidating what they're telling you.

Terry

It doesn't matter how nice you are about it, at the end of the day you are sort of saying I don't believe that.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And it is about how, and that's something that, again, like, say, you sort of look back on it and go, oh, yeah, that's a bit shit.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

At the time, I wasn't saying it like that. I wasn't saying it with that intention that I'm like, you're being crazy, but it was just a sort of like, let's just wait and see, shall we?

Mark

I think it's worth saying that in the vast, vast majority of cases where any parent suspects that their child is neurodivergent The child is neurodivergent. Typically, right? Because parents of neurotypicals do not have these same kind of nagging concerns because their kids Fit the mould, right? They their kids sit down on their grown-ups' lap when the story is being read. They do what the other kids do and what they are led to believe.

Terry

That simulacrum, they fit that.

Mark

So their children are hitting the milestones and they're presenting similarly to the others. So they're not having these questions because their children are Most likely to be neurotypical. So I think it's worth saying to any dad that is listening to this, and that's also talking to myself when I was sort of in the early days.

Terry

Yeah, right.

Mark

And you, and younger Terry. If your partner's opening up to you about the possibility that your child might be Autistic or ADHD, don't dismiss it straight away. Believe them, right? Assume that unless evidence proves otherwise, rather than the other way around, right? Be open about it and curious about it, and go, all right, I'll have a... You know, maybe I'll do some research into it. Because I know for a fact that Tam was right for every single one of my kids. And we did it every time. Tam was like, Oh, I think Jay is. I think Jay is autistic. I was like, nah, can't be. And then we got him diagnosed, and Tam went,

Terry

yeah, yeah.

Mark

And then Tam went, I think Otto's autistic and nah there's no way not my Otto right and then and then when I went I think India might be autistic. I was like, not another one. And I was, you know, I didn't push back. I was just like, oh, really? Really? Again. All right.

Terry

I'll believe you this time. I didn't believe it the first time or the second time. But this time you might have something.

Mark

And then when Tam went, I think I might be neurodivergent. I was like, oh, I don't know anything anymore. I don't know. What do I know?

Terry

You can't know anything anymore. All right. I give up.

Mark

I think, you know, and I think in your case, Lisa was right both times, way ahead of me.

Terry

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She absolutely was. And speaking to younger me, Cartha, Poor beautiful, you sweet summer child.

Mark

Get some sleep.

Terry

Younger me, yeah, you want sleep now because it's never happening again. But two is what's the worst that happens from you believing them?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.

Terry

Okay, they say it believe them. What's the worst than can happen?

Mark

Yeah, follow that, follow that train of thought.

Terry

Yeah, right. If it turns out to not be the case, oh well, great, you know, okay, yeah, like you've lost nothing. Yeah, the sort of flip-side consequence: if you don't believe them, your child's unsupported. or is only partially supported however long it takes you to catch up.

Mark

And just as importantly, your partner exactly, yeah, is unsupported.

Terry

Yeah. You are dropping the ball on that. If you just go along with it, even if you don't really think it's a thing, believe them for now.

Mark

They have more evidence than it does.

Terry

They have more evidence than you. Just go with that because the consequence of them being wrong. is nothing.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

The worst thing is you get to be smug about saying, I told you you were panicking. That's the worst thing that happens is you get to be a bit smug if they're wrong. If you're wrong, the consequences are much worse. So just believe them.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

Be on side.

Mark

One of the other repercussions of this early experience is if you don't believe them. And if you do have that element of denial and you push back and you sort of invalidate what what they're suspecting. There's an implication there that your child's challenging behavior then isn't because of any undiagnosed neurotype. It's because the mum, as the primary caregiver, is not doing a good enough job, right? It's the way they're choosing to parent. Now, that's never kind of explicit. I think. Certainly not for me and certainly I'm sure not for you, but I'm sure I think for other dads, I'm sure that's the case. I've heard stories where that is the case, where they're like, ah, yeah You're just being too easy on them. It's the way that you're being all gentle with them. You're mollycoddling them, all of that bullshit, let's face it.

Terry

Absolutely.

Mark

You know, and you hear that. You hear that from ignorant strangers as well, not just.

Terry

Oh, yeah.

Mark

Oh, just give them me for a week and I'll sort them out. It's usually the older generation that do that. Have you heard that before?

Terry

Have I heard that before? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we did hear that occasionally. Oh, you just need to You just need to do this. Oh, really? Oh, is it my fault? Oh, I didn't realise that. You're right. Do you know what? If only you'd brought them up, you'd have done it right, wouldn't you?

Mark

Yeah, so there's this, and you know how infuriating that that is now rage is. And so, you know, if you think that, like, in the old.

Terry

Well, I never put myself down as one of those people.

Mark

No, no, no, of course not.

Terry

When I was saying to Lisa, oh, I think we should give it a bit more time, you know, kids will be kids, all that nonsense. I wasn't intending to imply that it was in any way anything that she was doing.

Mark

No, no, no, no.

Terry

Like you say, but it does sort of come across like that. It does sort of come across like those people. It's sort of like, well, if it's not that, then it's just me, isn't it? Like from her point of view, she's so it's like if it's not this thing that I'm saying it is, the only other variable is me. So it has to be my fault.

Mark

Yeah, and that again is really tough on the mums and you know really

Terry

especially when it's something that they get from like you say from the random strangers from the older generations.

Mark

But but it's always coming from people who have less evidence. Right, and who knows who don't know your kids, and you know, in the early days, because as we're saying, the dads do less of the childcare, we don't have that evidence, so if you are a dad that is assuming that that is the case. The implication that they're just being mollycoddled, they're just being pandered to, and they need a firmer hand is incredibly damaging because, as we know. Authoritarianism and that sort of firmer hand does not work for neurodivergent kids.

Terry

It is counterproductive, to say the least. That sort of. aggressive parenting, I'll I'll put it, doesn't work for neurotypical kids really.

Mark

No.

Terry

It teaches them fear, but that's sort of all it teaches them, really. It certainly doesn't work for neurodivergent children. It's no whole different skill set required.

Mark

Because I think mums know that that approach doesn't work. And It's not because they haven't tried it. I think that, you know, I'm sure a lot of the mums have been. They've tried shouting. They've tried shouting and bribery and pleading and every other fucking trick in the book.

Terry

I'll take all your nice, all your fun stuff away.

Mark

Yeah, it's not like they've ruled out other options, they've tried that and they've seen the shit show it creates.

Terry

That's the thing, isn't it? And this is something that still comes up now. is people going, Oh, have you tried this really obvious, simple thing that I've just thought of off the top of my head? Do you know what? Thanks, Barbara. No, I hadn't tried that. Thank God you turned up. In the last twelve years, that hadn't occurred to me.

Mark

Yeah, I'll just try insisting they wear a coat.

Terry

Yeah, of course that would Why didn't I think of that? Just go to sleep. Why didn't I just say that?

Mark

Yeah. Oh, it's so simple when you look at it that way. So the reason that the gentle parenting approach is being adopted at this stage is because from trial and error and from bitter experience, it's the thing that works, right? It's not the cause of your child's dysregulation. It's what you need to do and how you need to approach them in order to reduce that dysregulation. And people sort of looking from the outside in get it wrong, like get it the wrong way around.

Terry

It's the end point of trying all the other options.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

That's what it is. That's where we've ended up. That's not where we started.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

It's like this is my last resort.

Mark

And at the moment, it seems to be creating the least amount of hassle.

Terry

Yeah, I don't care if I have to stick a banana up my nose and sing a song. If it works, I'm doing it because I need to sleep.

Mark

I think another of the difficulties dads have with parenting neurodivergent kids, and this is something that you alluded to earlier, is that we are inherently conditioned by society to be less nurturing.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Like it's not a conscious decision, but I I think that people tend to be a product of their environments. And as a male growing up in the eighties for me, probably, you know Late eighties, maybe early nineties for you because you're a youthful fellow.

Terry

I knew I liked you.

Mark

Gender roles were a lot more rigid. Back in those days, and they were passed on from previous generations who have had that passed on from previous generations and generations. So, you know, the unwritten rule is that the dads are the breadwinners and the providers and the disciplinarians. Right? I know certainly when I was growing up, it would be like, wait till your dad gets home. Dad would be the shouty one.

Terry

For me, yeah, myself was a little bit different, but it was in the Fundamentally, the same, yes. My dad was the one that tended to do, yeah, dispense justice.

Mark

And like I say, that's not something that's just inherited from your own parenting role models. but also from T V and film and like books and just society.

Terry

That's the thing. It's this sort of It's like a silhouette. It's like the ghost of the ghost of parenting past.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it really is.

Terry

It is. And it just hangs in the air. You don't really realize it's there, but it hangs in the air. presented, like you're saying, every bit of media, every story that gets told, every everywhere.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

So how can you not absorb that? How can that not shape your approach?

Mark

You do it unthinkingly, I think, initially, because it's like, well, you know.

Terry

You have nothing else to fall back on.

Mark

Yeah, you look at how you were parented typically. If you think you were parented well, I'd Said, I've made this point before. If you think your parents did well, you go, right, that worked for me. If I did something wrong, my dad would shout, there would be a punishment, and I wouldn't do it again. So that worked on me. So great, I'll take that. I'll copy and paste it onto my own parenting style. And that is obviously going to work a treat. What could go wrong?

Terry

Of course it is. What could possibly go wrong? And shout at problems until they go away.

Mark

Exactly. And so I think, as a result, a lot of the dads. Now tended to grow up with father figures who were emotionally distant, more authoritarian, and typically more sort of work focused. This is my role in the family. And, you know, there's a mother's role, but that generally doesn't involve shouting at me and, you know, getting all aggro if I don't do what I'm told. And this is not intended as a criticism of the fathers that preceded us. But it's an important context. You it's inherited. It's inherited over time. And it's only really relatively recently. that people have reflected on that and looked at much more sort of mutual co-parenting strategies and a much more equitable share of parenting roles. And that has become the paradigm, which is great. And we're part of that. And that's wonderful. But you can't deny that a lot of what's gone before is initially picked up.

Terry

Yeah, of course it is. Because for one thing, you're going into an entirely new situation. I'm not being funny. There's a you that exists up until you have children, and there's a different you that exists afterwards.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And the you that exists afterwards goes in like a like a newborn babe to it. Like a child with no very children. Like a toddler with no fucking context. at all for what's going on. All of a sudden, you're responsible for this living human.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

What the actual f the most responsibility I've had up until now was my PlayStation. Now I've suddenly got this child that I've got to look at. I've got absolutely no idea what I'm doing. I've read all the parenting books in the world. Terrifying. I've got no idea what I'm doing. What reference point do I have? It's the default. I have exactly one reference point.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

I'm going to have to go with that because I don't have any other options.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And parenting is one of those things that's like, it's constant. It's the most important thing you'll ever do. There's no breaks.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

You are, you've got to hit the ground running.

Mark

So you use the default option, the easiest cut and paste option. And I think, you know, in the early days, I think the dad's become. tend to be less gentle parenting focused, if you like, you know, uh and not that's not to say I was an ogre, but uh there were there were times where I w where I would get incredibly angry because Jay would not listen to me. He didn't acknowledge his name, right? So I would sort of say his name and he completely ignore me. And me, being, you know, someone who didn't know what was going on, was like, he's ignoring me. He's being defiant. He's being rude, you know, and he must listen to me. So then you'd shout, right? But then this is my house.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

But what I know now is that he's not, his ears aren't open to that because he's hyper-focusing on whatever he's hyper-focusing on. Do you know what I mean? I could let off fireworks and he wouldn't start paying attention. So it's not a slight on me. He's just doing his own thing. But obviously, in those days, I would get cross and then I and there would be things like he'd be jumping on the sofa. And in the early days, I'm like, I'd get off the sofa. And then he wouldn't do it. So I'd then go and physically move him off the sofa. And then I'd go into the next room and then I'd turn around again. He'd be back on the sofa. And it's very easy, I think. Maybe there's an element of your ego being bruised a little bit, your pride Being wounded of going, I have no authority in this house, and I've been led to expect that as the dad, I am the supreme authority, and the boss.

Terry

How dare you?

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

I mean, that you know, my so the the parenting style that I was exposed to was um the key sort of elements were not necessarily aggression. Although that was that does come up, the yelling, the waving finger and all that, but a lot of it was exasperation and sort of The inflicting of guilt or shame, right?

Mark

Okay.

Terry

Behaviours. So if I did something wrong, it would be exasperation that I, you know, disappointment. And that is something that I did.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

Never thought I would, but that is something that I did. When I didn't get angry, I was just like, oh, for fuck's sake.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And I would get, I would get. It was anger, but it was coming out as this sort of exasperated disappointment.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And that is something that I have, that I to this day have to watch myself for because it's such an ingrained thing that at least says to me like you can't do that because it's making it worse your your your face sure it says your face is is being more horrible than you are because I wouldn't my face would be like oh Because that's my initial reaction.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

Obviously, I'm a thinking conscious human being, so I can then rein that in and go, you are being unreasonable.

Mark

But you have to unlearn that. That's the thing. Because that's the thing. It's constantly.

Terry

I'm learning.

Mark

So I was, you know, I was parented from like, and my dad is wonderful. Like, I have a great relationship with my dad, but he was a shouty dad. He shouted a lot. So that was my default when I started. And you have to unlearn that because that you know now, or we know from experience. That has a really negative effect on any situation with our neurodivergent kids. So you have to unlearn that instinct, and it is an instinct, I think. It is. Yeah, it it is.

Terry

And it still catches it like I said, because it's an instinct, it still catches if something catches me unaware, it's again, it's still my it's my default and I have to It's a conscious effort to not react like that and adjust my behaviour to make the situation better. Worse,

Mark

yes, yeah, yeah. So then you sort of, you know, you collect yourself and you re-approach it, yeah, exactly. I'm just gonna leave the room for a second, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed right now. And then come back.

Terry

Yeah. Go into the other room and grab a pillow and screams And then come back.

Mark

Right. Everybody okay? Good. Everybody okay. So I think this sort of assumption that there is almost like a hierarchy, a parenting hierarchy, is a thing I had to unlearn quite early on, is that I'm the boss and what I say goes and You know, I don't have to explain myself to you because you're a child and I'm the parent. And that was very much, you know, the dynamic in my household when I was growing up. And was one that I implemented very, very early on until it wasn't working. And then you, because you then end up fighting against that oh, all the time. I found myself having these battles over shit that don't really matter. Do you know what I mean? Like you'd you'd find yourself picking arguments just for the sake of asserting your authority. I think that's a very male thing. I didn't find Tam doing that at all. I don't know. Was Lisa did Lisa do any of that shit?

Terry

No, no, no. That is, I think, a uniquely. masculine perspective, I think. And again, it is a learned thing because even as I was about to say it then, I was like, it sounds ridiculous, but it is a learned thing of like, I expect to be obeyed My house. That's essential. That's fundamentally what it is. I expect to be obeyed. This is my house. You will respect my authority.

Mark

Look at us now, Terry. I expect to be undermined every hour.

Terry

I expect to be occasionally involved in the decision making.

Mark

Steady on. Steady on.

Terry

Yeah. Considered. Considered in the decision making. Not involved. Considered in the decision making.

Mark

What this does over time, right? So all of this inherited let's say authoritarian parenting approach. It's been inherited from society and from our own parenting role models. And you try and implement that in the early days and that is not working. And the ego gets involved, and pride gets involved, and then you end up being exasperated. And what happens then is that very often, and it depends how deeply entrenched that is and how willing the dab is to unlearn that.

Terry

Yes, yes.

Mark

But what that can lead to ultimately is a disparity in parenting style.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Where you've got the mum doing the gentle parenting stuff and the dad trying to do the other thing that doesn't work and getting exasperated. And then you've got the good got bad cop situation, which is never. a healthy thing. And as we've said, neurodivergent kids don't respond well to that traditional discipline. Raised voices are overwhelming and dysregulating to them, which will Ramp them up even more. Like implementing consequences without explaining. That's sort of, you know, like, just do it because I said so. They need that reasoning. They need the understanding. Sweet Jesus.

Terry

Yeah, that's not saying. If we examine that ourselves. That's not a good enough reason. If someone told me to do something that I didn't want to do and they said, Because I said it's something like what I say, no, yeah,

Mark

but okay, loads of parents of neurotypical kids,  that's perfectly acceptable.

Terry

Neurodivergent children don't see you as their parent, as an authority figure. You are a peer.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

You are their peer. there's a s a degree of deference there because you know what you're talking about to some degree, but why would they defer to what you want? You're on the same sort of authority level as one of their friends or their sibling.

Mark

Yeah. It's like a colleague. It's like a colleague telling you to go make him a cup of tea. It's like, fuck you make your own mate.

Terry

Yeah, it's not, it depends how you ask me. Do you know what I mean? That is a there is no degree of, I'll do that because you're my you're my dad or you're my mum, there is I'll do that if you're nice to me and I feel like doing it.

Mark

Yeah, and and PDA has a big part to play in that. So one of the you know, one of the factors of PDA and one of the things that really helped me to kind of understand Jay was PDA. Was I reading a book about it, and it said, One of the signifiers of kids who have PDA is: do they consider themselves as children? And I thought it was a ridiculous question at first. And then I was like, I don't actually don't think that Jay does. Like, he doesn't, he doesn't think of himself as a child. Considers himself as a small adult.

Terry

I don't even think it's that. I think they just consider themselves a person. There is nothing else. They're just a person, you're a person. The age is irrelevant.

Mark

Yeah, but the thing is, he sees the other two, his younger siblings, as children.

Terry

Oh, he does?

Mark

Yeah, yeah. So he doesn't recognise authority above, but he's quite keen on recognising it below.

Terry

I recognize no authority but my own.

Mark

Yeah, that is very true.

Terry

Outstanding. Yes, of course. Oh, that's funny. I'm not a child. They're children.

Mark

They're feral.

Terry

I'm not like them.

Mark

So, so what happens when there's this disparity in parody styles? I'm trying to bring it back, right?

Terry

Sorry, sorry.

Mark

No, no, no, no.

Terry

Sorry, I wandered off. I wandered off.

Mark

I love the tangent. I'm here for the tangent. So what what happens is that then you it it almost becomes a feedback loop when you've got this disparity in parenting styles, where the mum understands that gentle parenting and not implementing a a hierarchy to things works. And when the dad is doing stuff, doesn't do that, so escalates things, and then the kids get dysregulated and the dad gets more frustrated and then rolls his eyes or shouts or does whatever. The child dysregulates further. What happens typically then is the mum has to step in The mum has to calm everyone down, send the dad out, take the child to one side, soothe, regulate, and just kind of almost become a translator between The child and the dad, because they've spent all of that time, right?

Terry

Yeah, and they've learned the skills that are required to regulate that. And like you say, it's like With dad sort of not picking up on it and trying to sort of brute force my way or the highway, you are making things worse for yourself. And worse than that, you are You know, your wife's coming home, you're like, Hello, darling, I've set fire to everything. And uh, over to you, I'm on fire as well, and uh, I'm so glad you're here. You've got to put us all out and save everything. It's like that's a lot of mental load for someone who's already on the fucking load. Yeah, under a lot of strain. To just be like, Everything's broken and it's my fault, but can you fix it all?

Mark

Yeah, so the mum kind of steps in and translates the situation, de-escalates the situation. What happens then is the dad feels shit. Because it's like you either feel undermined or sidelined or like, oh, no one's listening to me. I might as well not be it, you know, like all of that, kind of the wounded pride a little bit. It's like, oh, and also that, like. What I'm doing is not fucking working. And I'm trying. I mean, I am trying. I'm trying to do what I know best. And it's not working. So they almost. sort of withdraw a little bit.

Terry

Yes, and you know, there is something that I can sort of you can see why.

Mark

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Terry

They've done the thing they thought was the thing to do. They've made it worse. then they've had to be rescued from that situation.

Mark

That's exactly right, yeah.

Terry

Yeah, for some men that that's not that doesn't sit well. And again, that is a learned thing, that doesn't sit well. They've had to be They had to be rescued, and then everything's been made worse because of that, because they were unable to do their job, essentially. They were unable to do the parent thing. They feel sidelined and sort of guilty, and a bit ashamed, I would say, probably as well, that they Did their thing, they did their best, and not only was it not good enough, it actually made it worse. And I say, and then what can you do in that situation problem This situation is better when I'm not involved in it.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

That's the fundamental output of the.

Mark

And the mums and the kids can't disagree either.

Terry

No, of course they can't. They can't. The evidence is there staring them in the face. When I did when I was here getting involved, everything got worse. You stepped in, took over, everything's better. the obvious thing to do for all for the benefit of all of us is for me to stay out of it.

Mark

But that makes everyone feel shit. That makes the dad feel shit. That makes the mum who is looking who, you know, is doing so much of the work. And as you say, so much of the mental load. looking for just some fucking respite. Take them for like an hour. Let me just go for a walk around the block or, you know, or not even that. Let me put the washing out Without having to handle the kids.

Terry

Yeah, without having to deal with it,

Mark

You know, just give me that moment. And when that turns to shit, the mum feels bad, the kids. feel bad and it's you know, it it can be really bad. Now, it it didn't get to that stage in my household. I think because I'd I'd seen more evidence early on. It didn't sort of snowball into that dynamic. I was like, okay, I see what was going on. But there was a definite turning point for me. There was a moment where I was like, I need to get more involved here because I'm sort of playing catch-up. And Jay was being how I perceived particularly defiant. I tried Naughty Corner, Terry. Have you ever tried Naughty Corner?

Terry

I think we had a naughty step.

Mark

Fuck yeah, that kind of Yeah, that was an absolute shit show because I was like, well, this is what you're supposed to do, right? And again, it's that authoritarian.

Terry

I've seen this on the telly.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Terry

It's basically like a small jail. The small version of going to jail.

Mark

Exactly. And they will learn. They will never reoffend, right?

Terry

No. Exactly.

Mark

So I'd then sort of go the and the id the logic was you'd go into Naughty Corner. For a minute for every year.

Terry

A number of minutes for every year.

Mark

For every year of, right? And I think he must have been 4. So then. I would say, like, get into Naughty Corner, and he'd he'd but he couldn't stay in Naughty Corner because he's ADHD and also PDA. So, like, me telling him to go in Naughty Corner is not going to happen. So, he'd just end up escaping. And then I'd have to march him back in, and you're supposed to like wordlessly do it. And it was, and I remember doing it for like about 17 times at some point. And it's just like, this is what am I doing? This is not working. At one point he started dancing in Naughty Corner.

Terry

You're not supposed to dance in Naughty Corner. It's for misery and reflection. It's not for dancing, you're doing it wrong.

Mark

This is not a dance of self-reflection. No, it's just so I remember the mom there was a moment where I physically was holding him. I was restraining him, holding him in Naughty Corner, which, if you look at it, like I am in Naughty Corner myself. Which was particularly congratulations, you've put yourself in naughty corner, yes. And he's dancing and I'm reflecting.

Terry

So technically it does work.

Mark

Yeah, it does. Just not in the way I expected.

Terry

Not in the way I intended.

Mark

So that was a moment for me. Where there was just like, what the fuck am I doing? And why am I doing this? And I started questioning it. And there was a time, sort of round about that time, where it was evident. That Jay much preferred Tam. And I know this because he would tell me every day Of course. I much prefer mummy to you, Daddy. I was like, oh, okay. Are you sure? You know, you don't want to.

Terry

I didn't ask, but okay.

Mark

Exactly. Okay. We already know this. You know, yes, you said earlier.

Terry

You did tell me yesterday.

Mark

Right, any change today, son? No, okay. Naughty corner it is then.

Terry

For me. I'll go and sit there and reflect.

Mark

But that's obviously that's a hard thing to hear. And to also witness it and say, look, he's Oh, he's a different child when he's with Tam. And I'd witness it and go, Dude, I've gotta do something here. And I was my relationship with Jay was at rock bottom because we were just locking horns, we were butting heads. Do you know what I mean? I'm a grown-up and he's a child.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Like, locking horns with a child is weird.

Terry

Yeah. It is, but like, you know, it's got a Look, you've got to cut yourself a little bit of slack. It's like you, and I don't mean this horribly, had no idea what was going on.

Mark

No.

Terry

You were lost in the woods.

Mark

Exactly.

Terry

Like, you were in the weeds with it. Like you say, you're locking horns. with a with a little child over who's the big dog, who's the authoritai and what are you doing.

Mark

Exactly.

Terry

But you're too far in it. You're too in it at the moment.

Mark

In the moment, your ego gets involved, and then it becomes, you know, it's never going to end well.

Terry

This is a personal slur against me.

Mark

That's what it is. I remember when. it sort of struck me. When I f like really went, oh, oh, he's neurodivergent. And we would just sit and watching TV, Tam and I were watching TV and Tam had their iPad on. And I think Tam knew that I was now ready for that conversation. Because Tam had raised it before to be like, nah, don't see it myself. Yeah, what do you know?

Terry

What would you know spending literally 13 hours a day with them?

Mark

So Tam basically went, what do you reckon to these questions? about Jay and read out these questions. And I'll read them now just because, you know, I think it's important. Does your child fail to respond to their own name? It's like, uh, yeah. Are they disinterested in giving, sharing or showing objects of interest? Yeah. Do they have a preference for solitary play? Yes. Do they have difficulty carrying on a reciprocal conversation? Fuck yes. Do they have difficulty recognizing others' emotions, responding appropriately to different social situations and understanding social relationships? It's like, undoubtedly. Are they fixated on specific topics or objects? Yes, they are. Do they become upset by minor changes in daily routine? Yes, they do. And do they have unusual sensory sensitivities? And that was a massive yes. Bingo. It was literally like I had never heard my child described as accurately. As in those eight questions. And I'd read all loads of parenting books, and I'd listened to podcasts, and I'd done online research and forums and shit. And there was one thing that was like, they're describing my child. That's him. And as you probably know, and as many of the Neuroshambles listeners know, they are some of the diagnostic criteria for autism. And that to me was just like, fuck. That was like a holy shit moment of that's him and I was ready to hear it at that point. And I had that sort of I I don't know if it's unique to me or to if other dads have it of d did you have this sort of long, dark night of the soul when you realize that actually Before diagnosis, it's this is definitely what it is.

Terry

Mine was a sort of a creeping erosion of my expectation.

Mark

That's what a wonderful way of describing it. Yeah.

Terry

my expectation of what children were like and what parenting was like, my whole the whole edifice that I had built up in entirely in my mind fabricated entirely in my mind from nonsense. But this edifice that I created of this is what parents are, this is what being a dad is, this is what being a mum is. And like as you said, a lot of that's based on tropes and roles that are not really conducive to healthy relationships or life. And it had been these are sort of saying, I don't I think There's something going on, it's because of this and that. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, and this pillar of salt in a wet wind, it just gradually started to sort of sag and collapse. And this structure that I'd built up, this Sculpture of what it was to be a parent and a dad and a child and all of that sort of happier mache vision of parenting. Yeah, of parenting, it started to crumble and it started to break up. And I was there and I was trying to shore it up. My brain was flying in resources of reason and dismissal, and I was trying to patch the cracks that are appearing in this edifice that I had created, in this sculpture of parenting, until eventually it had been so undermined by just evidence. By just the world. It butted up against the world and it was found wanting. And it just collapsed away. And I Actually, I think you might be right. There might be something else now. And it was such a small admission.

Mark

Oh, yeah, but to Lisa, how important was that? Like, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah. Welcome to the party, you idiots.

Terry

Yeah. And how long could you have taken? To just listen.

Mark

Yeah, but you know, so we've got to get there in our own way, I guess.

Terry

Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately, it is the the erosion of that belief structure, like I say, that we've either had imposed or that we've that we've built ourselves out of our experience.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

Like you said, out of our the way we were parented, the parenting that we've seen.

Mark

And sometimes it just has to get We have to get there in our own sweet time. So I'm sorry, Tam, that it took It took me a while to cast.

Terry

I've apologised already, but Lisa, I'm very sorry. I'm sorry I didn't believe you straight away.

Mark

What happens, I think, and I don't I don't think this is unique To dads, but I think it is worth talking about: is that when that understanding hits, well, certainly for me, there was this period of grief that I went through of like, fuck. Oh man, just that understanding, that realization that my kid's going to find life so much harder. being being neurodivergent. Because it was odd you know, I didn't know much about autism, but I knew that the world wasn't really cut out for catering to autistics.

Terry

You sort of realize quite quickly that the world is not really built for anyone who isn't Neurotypical who isn't who doesn't fit that sort of norm.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

Not really built for anyone who doesn't fit that mold.

Mark

Yeah. So then there's that grief over that moment of like, oh, they're going to find so much things so much more difficult. And we are, you know, me and Tam are going to find things so much more difficult. You know, it's going to be much harder for us because we're going to have to make accommodations. We're going to have to To fight, even then, I knew that we would had no fucking idea how much we would have to fight for accommodations. Jesus Christ. Probably for the best at that point, I might not maybe end the night.

Terry

It's not going to be that bad, is it?

Mark

It's not that bad. But also, I think there's that grief of that letting go of what you expected your relationship with your child to be and who they were going to be. Because I think, as a parent, when you're growing up, you're like, oh, my kid is going to play football, and we're going to go to the football together, and he's going to be really good at art, and he's going to love. The theatre, and we'll do all of these things.

Terry

And I mean, I was more afraid that he was going to like football, but yeah, sure.

Mark

But yeah, yeah, I get you have these ideals. I guess, of what you want them to look like and questioning as well. Like, are they going to be able to do that? Is he going to be able to drive? Are they going to leave home? Like, so many questions. That was a really sort of as I say, a long, dark night of the soul that involved a lot of whiskey and a shitload of drinking.

Terry

I think you're right. There is a period of grief. It's like you're standing at the foot of that statue that's collapsed, that monument you built to how you thought to what you thought Parenting was going to be what you thought the future was going to be. And standing in the rubble of that monument is Hard.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good way of putting it.

Terry

It is hard. You are standing in the ruin of what you thought was going to be. But There is a different monument. There's a new one. There's one that you hadn't even considered.

Mark

Well, you get to build your own, right? This is the thing. That's what you kind of learn, right? It was like, okay, well, we've got this, so let's see what we can build from it. And it's it's perfectly fine to grieve that.

Terry

Absolutely.

Mark

Yeah, I think that's important to grieve that. And I think it's you know I just wonder if the grief is slightly different for dads. because of societal expectation and the the roles, the gender stereotypes that we've adopted, there is this sort of this hardwired need to stay strong. Right, to not show vulnerability or emotion sometimes, to be the rock. And so, if you let in that tiny little hint of doubt or grief or sadness or self-pity. then you're not fulfilling that role and it all, as you say, sort of kind of com comes crumbling down a little bit.

Terry

But again, is that is that sort of for me anyway, it was that I'm now of the realization everybody is struggling, and I have not been I have not been here for it. I can't now afford To not be here because I'm suffering with it, because they've been without my support for so long, it's not an option. I missed my opportunity to be emotional about it. I've missed that because I didn't accept it. So now I can't do it. I've got to just get on with it for them.

Mark

Yeah, no, absolutely. What is also slightly difficult, I think, is that the mums have a support network.

Terry

Usually, yeah.

Mark

Very rarely do dads have a network of dads that they can discuss that. Things with. So, firstly, I think a lot of men find it difficult to talk to other men about things like this. But also, it's just, you're not going to walk up to another dad on the playground and go, dude. I'm fucking crumbling here. You know, I'm falling to pieces.

Terry

It's again, it's something that you're taught men don't do that.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, like, I'm now. Fuck, I make a podcast about that very thing. So I'm fine with it. I'm more than fine with it. But I think initially it was not an easy thing to admit to feel vulnerable, I guess. And I think that that is true of a lot of dads.

Terry

Absolutely. Everything we're taught is don't be that, don't be that, don't be vulnerable.

Mark

But what I would say to any dads listening is that there are dads groups out there, you know, but Dads of of Neurodivergent Kids. There's there's a Facebook group that I'm part of, which is Dads of Neurodivergent Kids, which is a place for them to vent and ask questions and, you know, share lighthearted stuff as well, which I think is, you know, it's quite nice to have a uniquely male space for that. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes if any other dads want to take part in that. There's also a some local Groups as well. And it's not like a support group. Do you know what I mean? It's not like Alcoholics Anonymous, where you'll sit around and sort of. It's basically.

Terry

Hi, my name's Terry.

Mark

Exactly. And my child called me an idiot. Again. But it's it's basically like you can have I think there are online meetups, but also in-person meetups where you could just go and have a beer and um and a pizza and just chat to other dads who are going through it. And I think that's been I think that's really valuable to people who need that place to to share that kind of thing, I think it's really good. So what happened once I'd sort of reached that sort of the my lowest ebb of realizing that He's neurodivergent, and as you were saying, just sort of I haven't been there, I've been haven't been really helping because I've not really been acknowledging it. But now, okay, here I am. I went. overtime in terms of research. It was like, well, I don't know anything about autism really. What I thought I knew about autism was like from Rain Man and Forrest Gump.

Terry

Right.

Mark

He's one of the two. He doesn't look like either, so of course he can't be autistic. He's got he makes eye contact and he's very articulate and all of that, right?

Terry

I think that is that is again something that you just pick up from society. No, autistic people are this. They're Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. So I chucked a bunch of toothpicks on the floor. He couldn't count them. It's obviously not autistic. And it's just like, yeah, I tested him. I've done a test. What are you talking about?

Mark

He was rubbish. He was four sticks out.

Terry

He took ages. Guy and the film did it just like that.

Mark

So I I had to educate myself about about autism and what it and how it presents and specifically how it presents in each of my children because they they have so many different Facets, some things they might find challenging, some things they might be super good at. You know, they might have sensory processing issues, they might have social issues, they might hate eye contact, they might be terrified of. like the feel of certain fabrics. It's it's really building up. I sped a lot of research and listened to podcasts and read books and articles, just building up my understanding of why my child was the way my child was. And it's really important, I think, for the dads to do that because the mums have already done that shit, right? We are playing cat typically in a typical situation. And what happens when the mums do all of that is that they become the expert and you then defer to them. And it's really important that you're both on the same page.

Terry

Again, because it reduces the load on them.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry

Because if you both know it, they haven't got to tell you. If you don't know it, they're having to explain it to you, might as well do it. So. having to explain the thing to you as well as having to actually deal with the thing is twice as much work. And then like again, you get left out of it if you're and it cements that disparity in your parenting style.

Mark

So that's what I did. I just immersed myself in it. There was a particular book that I read, which I've mentioned multiple times on this podcast, but I'm going to mention it again because it was like a massive light bulb moment for me, The Explosive Child by Ross W. Greene with an E. PhD and that was huge for me because it really helped me understand that the reason for Jay's behavior was not because he was being naughty or defiant is fundamentally that I had expectations of him that he wasn't able to meet. He didn't have those skills. And that was a a huge moment for me because it really changed the way that I viewed his behavior. which meant that I wasn't getting kind of hurt by this refusal to respect my authoritarian. So that that was a book that I read, I'm sure, you know

Terry

Yeah, I mean yeah, we yeah, I mean I obviously Lisa bought all the I can't even remember all of them. She bought reams of books. She'd found resources online, all this sort of thing. So she was already there with it. Um and she passed you know, she passed a bunch of those things to me and I read here and there. I read bits of bits of stuff here and there. It's important to have a baseline understanding of what neurodivergence means. what this means, what the different what the varying sort of facets of that kaleidoscope are.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

It's good to have that baseline of understanding. But then the real work begins with you using some of that and learning about which bits of that are your child.

Mark

Yes, absolutely.

Terry

How do those facets all fit together to make Your child.

Mark

And I think crucially, the thing that helps more than anything is understanding your child. And if you've got two people doing the research and going, Oh, I I noticed this thing today. Do you think it could be this? And oh, oh, like I've noticed that this happens when I take him out of the house. And you know, you swap notes, but you start to you know, this disparity in parenting styles starts to coalesce and converge and become more unified. And I think equal partnership partnering or sort of at least being on the same page Because, you know, with the acknowledgement that the dads are typically going to have to go to work more and not be able to, you know, spend as much time with their kids and doing that and maybe doing some of the research.

Terry

but at least discussing it and sharing it and being open to these ideas that's it. Being open to it. That's the thing.

Mark

It's the really important thing. Because you then are parenting on the same page. And that is consistency is so, so important for our neurodivergent kids of knowing how people are going to respond, knowing that their parents are safe and Consistent and predictable so that they feel safe and nurtured and that their home is a safe place. If they come back and one person's parenting in one way and one person's parenting in another, and there's, you know, everything is up in the air and unpredictable. it's not a safe space for them, then they're not gonna be able to be authentic and unmask.

Terry

And it it's that appears to unmask. like you say, in safety, where they know what the consequences are to things, it is a much more conducive space to learn about how the world is and how the world is going to interact with them because they can face a disruption or a minor thing or they can learn about a new type of food in a really safe space where they can process those emotions and they can be assisted in processing those emotions about whatever the thing is. to help them with the world generally. Yeah, because that's something that they eventually have to face to a degree is the fact that the world is quite a chaotic place. So being able to sort of allow them to learn in that space where it's safe and they know the outcomes and they know the consequences They know everything, you know, the structure is rigid and knowable, understandable. It's a lot easier for them to process the things that are, you know, a bit more wobbly.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that made the biggest difference to me as a dad of a neurodivergent kid is just practice. It's just doing it. It's just spending time with your kids. Because it does, I think, in the early days, it is tempting to just opt out and leave it to mum because mum has those strategies and has learned from the mistakes. And I don't want to make mistakes. I don't want to get things wrong and make things worse. So you it's it's easy to then retreat into your traditional parenting role of

Terry

you know, the breadwinner versus the caregiver, which is impossible to overstate the importance of turning up.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. So, rather than assume that your relationship is unsalvageable, which is tempting to think, it's just practice, I think, because with practice, spending more time around your kids. And also spending more time around other kids as well, because the more you see their differences from other kids, the more you start to piece things together and go, Oh, well, here are the things that They find challenging. Here are the things that they're not yet able to do. These are the expectations I have of my child that aren't, you know, they're not there yet. So I built that up over time of just spending more and more time with their kids. And it can be daunting.

Terry

I think it's it can be daunting when you sort of have that realization and go Oh, okay, right. I'm going to ask you stuck in it. It can be daunting to see the sort of mountain that you've got to climb to get to where your spouse already is. And I think it's important to say, like, it is hard. There's no point trying to stop, it is hard. But it gets easier every day. The hard part is doing it every day.

Mark

Well, it's like on the job training, isn't it? Basically, your first day, you're not you're gonna it's you're gonna make mistakes.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

So if you're a dad that hasn't actually had that much kind of hands-on experience solo parenting, yeah, solo parenting your neurodivergent kids. it will a hundred percent be an absolute shit show the first time round. Strap in, deal with it. Everyone's gonna be crying by the end of it. It's part of the learning process. It's it's part of the learning process. But you learn and you understand more from it and it is j it's a case of just building up that that time to apply all of the uh the sort of

Terry

That's the time to apply all the vaguely toxic masculinity stuff of like just being strong and getting through it. You just gotta get through it. You've gotta go to that. You've gotta go to that soft play. You gotta take him there.

Mark

Stick your chest down. Stiff upper lip.

Terry

Now's the time, son.

Mark

That is how you truly man up.

Terry

Yeah, that is that is how you man up.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

You get through that session at the softway, you come out the other side a different person.

Mark

But over time you learn more about your kids and you learn more about their neurotype and I think that's really important. And also, it's worth saying, I think mums have a role to play here too, because I think sometimes mums don't want to see everyone failing at something. So, I think they might jump in. Some mums might jump in too early and be like, Well, that's not the way that I do it. It's like, well, look, no, no, don't do that. You can't do that. You're going to make it worse. You have thousands of flight hours under your belt. This guy's never got off the runway.

Terry

Yeah, this is my first time behind the controls. That's why we're upside down in a tree.

Mark

Yeah. So I think there is an element.

Terry

And it is, you know, but it's it's the flip side of the dad thing though. Like the dad thing where it's like, well, if I get involved, everything's worse, so why would I get involved?

Mark

Yes.

Terry

The obvious thing to do is just stay out of it because when I stay out of it, everything's better. It's the flip side of that. It's the most like. I know how to deal with this, and I'm watching you struggle. I'm standing on the pier watching you drown. I'm just sort of going, you're all right. Why wouldn't I get involved and help and stop everyone from crying? But that is important. You've got to learn.

Mark

I think, as we've learned from the sort of diagnosis process, men Think need largely need to make their own mistakes and learn by doing. Sometimes I think that is a very man thing of like, I'm not going to ask for directions, I'm just going to keep driving around. Until I find the location. There we go. So I think there's an element of that. So, in terms of like the dads having more hands-on experience. Mums with consent, obviously, it needs to be agreed beforehand, but leave the house. Give them some time with the kids to learn and and understanding. The dad says. And you will you will return to a scene that you'll probably We're not hoping for. You were probably hoping for harmony, and maybe they're all doing some colouring or some reading or some tidying up. Some colouring may have happened, probably on the walls. But that's not what you're going to experience. However. Don't criticize, don't comment, because it's about learning, right? It's about them learning to, you know, to work it out, I guess. So For the dads, I would say solo parent for a while and send the mum away so there can be no criticism of the way you're doing things and no judgment and you'll all get through it together. But also don't do anything else. Like this is your job. This is the one thing that you've got to do. Do you know what I mean? Don't do it while you're working or when we're trying to watch something on T V, just like this is your thing. One core bit of advice I'd have to any dads who are just dipping their toe into a little bit more hands on. solo parenting is lean into their special interests. Have you had that have you have you done that? Because So, your child is almost certainly going to have a special interest, something they're really into that you could not give a shit about.

Terry

Fiercely excited about. That is just going to be, and it is. Going to be mind-numbing.

Mark

Yes, absolutely.

Terry

It is going to be absolutely dreadful. It's going to be on repeat and it's going to be ghastly. Just go in knowing that. Forewarned is forearmed.

Mark

Yeah. But if they're showing you something like that, that's a really important thing to them. It's it's they are sharing the what they love doing. It's a the way of them showing their love. So You just have to lean into it and ask questions about it and show interest. And that is the really quick learn about it.

Terry

Yeah. Yes, it is stuff that is like Brain lint.

Mark

What's yours? What have you picked up, like accidentally become an expert in?

Terry

Okay, right. So Spongebob SquarePants, that's copies for a very long time. It is still in my Apple music list. Bear in mind, I travel a lot for work, right? So I listen to music basically all like hours a day for years. In my all time songs.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

All time SpongeBob SquarePants is still number four.

Mark

I love it. So you're doing you're doing the hours, though. You know, that's that's proof, right? That's proof.

Terry

That's it, yeah.

Mark

If your Spotify playlist isn't absolutely massacred By songs about poo, which is mine.

Terry

Yeah. My algorithm was ruined for so long. Finn's interest has moved on to something called Roblox. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And we have, we now do a cultural exchange. Okay. I have a hobby I play Warhammer. Nice. So we have a cultural exchange.

Mark

So you try and get him into D&D and he tries to get you into Roblox.

Terry

Yeah, he agrees to play a bit of Warhammer with me. And I agree to play a bit of Roblox with him and we have this cultural exchange where he shows me how that works and usually beats me and laughs Hysterically, and I show him how my thing works. So, we have a cultural exchange thing going on now. So, we, you know, I learned about his thing, he pretends to learn about my thing. That's how we do it's important.

Mark

I think. Um, but u ultimately over time by solo parenting, here's the thing, right? So I like I solo parent now because the Tam and I are separated, right? So half of my time is just me and the kids. And one of the best things to come out of our separation is that I've my relationship with my kids is like Just evolve to this next level. It's really lovely. We're all just sort of this. I've learned I've had to learn so much about them and how to regulate them and how they showed their joy and you know, it it's it's just by experience. And I get so much joy out of my kids now, where I think in the early days I was like Fucking hell, this is just a case of strapping in, right? And just getting through it without joy, right?

Terry

Yes, absolutely. Like early days, like a day out. Or something is just I've just got I've got eight hours of endurance test now.

Mark

Yes.

Terry

That's what it is. I've got an eight hour endurance test and then I can relax. That's what it was. Like you say now, you can get some actual joy out of it.

Mark

And it really is. I'm not just saying that for the sake of the podcast. I genuinely like have so much fun and there's a lot of joy. Now I understand my kids and I get them and it's just experience.

Terry

Basically, yeah, absolutely.

Mark

Another of the big things that I had to learn when I understood that my kids were neurodivergent. And this is back to the sort of the authoritarian thing of feeling like you need to be th the dispenser of justice, the upholder of standards in your house.

Terry

Judge Duty and executioner

Mark

Is lower your fucking standards. Basically, like, you know, understand that there are a lot of rules that I was trying to enforce. That didn't really need to be there. They were sort of inherited and it's quite.

Terry

Why die on that hill?

Mark

Yeah, so many, so many hills. That do not need to be died on. And that in itself becomes liberating when you're like, oh, why do you have to sit at the table while you're eating? Like I understand that that is how I was parented and I understand that the general population do that. And if you go to a restaurant, they will be eating at a table. But we're not at a restaurant, we're in their safe place at home. So me having that constant battle of trying to get them to sit still For ADHD kids who can't sit still, right? Who can't sit down? As soon as I sort of realized there was a thing that I was enforcing out of habit and tradition rather than out of necessity.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Was just like, oh, I don't have to have that battle. That's amazing.

Terry

Yeah. That's literally pick your battles. Yeah. When you see something and you go, right, that absolutely not. That must be rectified. Why? Yeah. Why does that thing need to be changed from what it is? If the reason is because it should. Yeah. If there's not a solid reason Fucking leave it.

Mark

It's quite a weird shift to have to do, I think.

Terry

Because you don't ever confront it. You don't ever confront why you're doing some of the things that you do. Why are we behaving in this way? Why are we doing this action this way? You just don't ever confront it. Having to confront it and go, why am I having this argument? Yeah, why am I angry about this?

Mark

What's the point? A very subtle shift happens. from authority to almost curiosity. So instead of going, get down from that table, stop standing on the table of like Why are you standing on that table?

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Can I ask? What are you doing? What's the plan here? It's my favorite question. What's your plan? Because it gets them to reflect on what the fuck they're doing. And very often they've got a plan. That you haven't like you have no idea what that plan is. So sometimes their answers can be hilarious and eye-opening. They will give in itself, it will give you a little insight into how their brain works. And ultimately, who cares if they're standing on the table? Do you know what I mean? Just give it a wipe afterwards if you're going to eat your dinner off it. But typically, we've already established they're not eating their dinner off it anyway. They're walking around with bits of cucumber flying out of their mouth. So, yeah, questioning the rules that you're enforcing is a big one.

Terry

Yeah, just before you before you get into a fight about sorry, just why is this a hill morph dying on?

Mark

Take a moment.

Terry

Why am I doing this?

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I would. say is important, and this has taken me a lot longer to pick up than it probably should have done, is the importance of

Terry

You can apply that to everything.

Mark

Yeah, it's true. The importance of repairing relationships with your neurodivergent Kids, when it all goes to shit, because you will fuck up. Everyone fucks up. I fuck up. Tam fucks up. I'm pretty sure you fuck up, Terry. I'm pretty sure Lisa fucks up.

Terry

I didn't want to admit it 'cause I am pretty cool, but um, yes.

Mark

Yeah, we make mistakes, we get it wrong. We blow up at a time when it makes matters worse because we cannot You know, follow our own advice all the time. Sometimes you're overwhelmed as well, and things will go to shit, and you will react in the wrong way and make matters worse. And it's really important To reflect on that and not to be too proud to apologize, even if they've said some really hurtful shit, by the way, which can sometimes be quite hard, to model. that sort of apology and s and you know afterwards and go, you know what? That was that was quite a lot for me. That noise you were making right in my ear as I was trying to work, was quite a lot for me, and I got quite overwhelmed. And so I reacted in a way that I probably shouldn't have d one, so I'm sorry.

Terry

Yeah, it's one again, it's one of those things that's like, but I'm in charge. Why should I be in child? Yeah, it's like Because you did something wrong. And how are they going to learn to apologise when they do something wrong because you don't?

Mark

I wouldn't say wrong, but...

Terry

Not wrong, no.

Mark

You did something that was not helpful in the situation.

Terry

Yeah, you reacted. You reacted poorly. And if you model compassion, that helps them to learn

Mark

it does, and actually, you know, because I know particularly, my kids have an incredibly keen sense of justice. So, if they feel like they've been wrong, and it's quite a neurodivergent trait, I think.

Terry

Yes.

Mark

If they feel they've been wrong, they will hold on to that shit and it will, you know, and that is, that can be quite damaging. Whereas if you then go, you know what, my bad, you know, I fucked up.

Terry

I was yeah, I was wrong. I'm sorry. It goes it goes a long way to assuaging that sense of A sense of injustice.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also surprising, I think, for my kids, certainly, how quickly they bounce back from that. And they're like, oh, yeah, fine. Do you want to play a game? It's like, oh, okay. But you told me that I was the worst parent in the world a moment ago.

Terry

Yeah.

Mark

Great. Okay. Yes. Yes, I do want to play a game. Let's put it all behind us. So you're yeah, you're not only sort of modelling, as you say, compassion and Making things right when they've gone wrong. I find it useful to narrate my own dysregulation because I think it's important for them to know how to do that as well. of go, you know what, that was too much for me because you were all talking at me at the same time and I'm making three separate meals. It was too much for me and I shouted, but it's because I got overwhelmed. Sorry, they then learn to explain themselves and understand where regulation plays a part in their own neurotype.

Terry

That's exactly exactly been my experience as well. Explain what the sit what's happening because you know what's going on in your head. No one else does, at the best of times. let alone neurodivergent people who may struggle to pick up on some more subtle cues that neurotypical people might pick up on.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

That would indicate, you know, what, you know, the build up or, you know, the What's going on, explaining all that, and just laying it all out, and like you said, demonstrate compassion and empathy. Move on

Mark

And then let's put some SpongeBob on.

Terry

No. Never again.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

So we'll get on to the positives now, because there are, I think there are positives. There are well, I know that there are positives from personal experience. Like, I know that a lot of dads in the early days are on the edge. It's really easy to feel like you're on the outside looking in. sometimes and not really knowing what you can do or where you can help, and just to kind of take a back seat almost. And I also know there are loads of mums that are despairing that they're not getting enough support. from their co parent and feel like the mental load is always all on them. And that's a difficult place to be. And I think it's probably the reason why a lot of parenting partnerships don't make it.

Terry

Yeah, there's a massive load to bear. If it's all on one side, that person's going to break.

Mark

So it's really important, I think, to try and bridge that gap. The positives are that it is it is salvageable. It is possible to rebuild that dynamic with your child. And once your kid sees both parents are safe And consistent and understanding, things definitely improve. I know they did with me. Once they realize their dad is on their team, right? He's not just some angry, shouty grump in the background. That makes a massive difference, I think, when they feel safe and they feel seen. So I've got a a perfect example of this of like, you know, I had a very bumpy start with Jay and over time things have massively improved in our relationship from him telling me that I was the worst parent in the world and that he much preferred Tam than me and, you know, he said some pretty rough things. But about a year ago, something quite surprising happened in our house in that it was we were just just me and him. In the kitchen, and he got up and he walked over to me and he gave me a hug completely unprompted. And he said, I love you. Sorry if I ever make you feel like I don't.

Terry

Oh my god.

Mark

And if you'd seen where we'd come from, like, and you know, and how that is not an intuitive, it's not an intuitive thing for him to say. If you knew Jay, and it's not a natural thing for him to say, but when he said that, it was dude. Well, yeah, that was a lot. It was like, but it. It is possible to get there. You know, like I say, the contrast between where I was and that was just like, oh man, it's been worth it. It's fucking, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and a lot of effort, but it was it is worth it.

Terry

Absolutely.

Mark

To be fair, he has since gone back to telling me that I'm an idiot.

Terry

I mean, I get that. I get that on the regular.

Mark

Both things can be true, right?

Terry

If anything, yeah, they're not mutually exclusive things. I get told I'm a silly grump.

Mark

Okay.

Terry

Even when all I'm saying is something like, you know, take your shoes off before you walk on the carpet or, you know drink your drink.

Mark

Yeah. Again, you know, you're setting the bar too high here. You realize that.

Terry

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I I strive. Shoot for the moon and you'll land among the stars. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Yeah. So what I'm saying is there there are positives. It is salvageable. So if you if you're a a dad listening to this, if your if your partner has grabbed you and pointed you in the direction of this Podcast because they feel like you know you might get some sort of benefit from hearing other dads talk about the experiences that we've been through, it is salvageable. It is possible to turn it around.

Terry

It's just the work.

Mark

Yeah, sorry. There are no shortcuts, but there isn't.

Terry

Yeah, if that's what you were here for, no shortcut. Roll his sleeves up, get stuck in.

Mark

But it is, yeah, it is it is possible.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions. Now these are the uh people or organizations that are doing wonderful things with in the world of neurodiversity to champion accommodations for our kids or the parents. Have you got any neurodiversity champions for us, Terry?

Terry

Yes, so there's obviously my beautiful wife. Who is something of a champion of mine? Certainly my hero.

Mark

Absolutely, Lisa Lloyd. She is ASD with a G and T on all of the socials on TikTok.

Terry

All of the socials. She's all over the place.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

And in bookstores. There you go, darling. I plugged. I plugged your books.

Mark

I'll put those in the show notes. But no, Lisa is wonderful and hilarious and insightful. Just, yeah, a beacon of joy in a rocky landscape sometimes.

Terry

Yeah, um, there's some people that she uh works quite closely with. There's uh SAA Clothing.

Mark

Oh, I've heard of them.

Terry

Who are, yeah, they do, you know, they do the sort of clothing that doesn't wind up our children. Okay, like sensory clothing, yeah. And there's Let Us Learn Too, which is a campaign by parents and carers to sort of stop the fight that families face trying to get support for their kids in education.

Mark

And Lisa's part of that in movement. That collective.

Terry

Yes, that collective movement to just make the government and the local councils just, you know.

Mark

Up their game.

Terry

Yeah. Yeah. Up their game is yes, yeah, that's the very least.

Mark

I'm being as polite as I can.

Terry

Yes, yeah, yes, of course.

Mark

Yeah, no, so that's wicked. I will put a link to those in the show notes. I've got a neurodiversity champion as well. There is a dad support group for Amaze Sussex, which is run by a guy called Darren Walker, who is amazing. He's just so positive and he's so like on it in terms of the admin and reminding people of everything that exists. And there's regular meetups in a pub near Brighton. And dads basically get together and there's a whole group of them, and I've been to a few, and the dads get together over a pint and a pizza and just chat, and they share stories about, you know, what's going on for them, and it's just a really lovely inclusive, welcoming space, like uh, as we were saying, sort of having a place for dads to be able to share stuff is really important. So that's really good. And there's also a WhatsApp group as well, where again Most of it is just bad dad jokes, but but every now and again there'll be no such thing as a bad dad joke. But you know, they're also sharing, you're like, I saw this article the other day, this was interesting, or here's a group that you might not know about, or here's a holiday club that is really good for our neurodivergent kids. So, again, just a good support group for dads. By dads. So I'd wholeheartedly recommend that, and I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins. Now, these are the moments where, for a neurotypical family, it wouldn't seem like a massive deal, but in our neuroshambolic setups. They are epic wins and it's always worth giving a shout out to those moments. So have you got any tiny epic wins for us, Terry?

Terry

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but Finn now goes to school with I wouldn't say a spring in his step, but with enthusiasm. Wow. Which it seems like such a little thing, but there was a time when he would sob.

Mark

Yeah.

Terry

All morning.

Mark

Which is heartbreaking, isn't it?

Terry

When that happens.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah.

Terry

We'll be dragging it j lit literally drag like handing him over like we were handing him over to some sort of internment camp. And it was heartbreaking. Yeah, absolutely. You know, he's like, I'm going to leave the house. I don't want you to look at me. I don't want you to talk to me. I'm going to get in the car. And I'm going to go to school. I will not speak to you until I return. He wants to go. He's getting on well there. But it's just that sort of The shift from that absolute sort of broken sorrow to, yeah, let's go. Let's go.

Mark

It's a huge. It's a huge thing.

Terry

It seems such a small thing, but it's such a big deal for us.

Mark

Yeah, no, absolutely. And Like again, parents of neurotypical kids don't even really question it, do they? No, you know, their kids just go after school. Of course, you go to school, I can go to work, I'll see you at the end of the day, guys. It's like, dude, you the amount of turmoil and You know, anxiety that we face with our kids sometimes is horrible. So, the fact that he's going in without that is a massive, massive win.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip

Mark

okay what the flip moments now these are the moments where our children our wonderfully neurodivergent Spangle brained children will say or do things that completely bewilder us. And I'd like to bring them to the podcast And share them with the world. So, do you have any what the flip moments for us?

Terry

Oh, yes. I was sitting up in the bedroom. I think I was, I was, I might have been having a cup of tea. I think I was hiding, if I'm really wrong. I know that. And the children had been, it was one of the rare moments, which is another little win where they were playing together. Okay. And I could hear them sort of, you know, I could hear the screams and calls of them playing downstairs. My son comes barreling into the room. I hear him upstairs. Smashes into the room, screaming, but like not Genuine terror, but also sort of excitement. Yeah. Comes running in his room, screaming, trying to find somewhere to hide. And then He slams the door behind him. Moments later, my daughter's literally. Bear in mind, she's eight years old. Boots the door open, like straightforward kick, boots the door open, it swings back on its hinges. slams into the box behind it, and she strides into the room and calls out, I am the testicle chicken and I am here for your butt cheeks I was just, I was stunned into silence.

Mark

What do you do at that point?

Terry

You're just like, I feel like. I have no idea where that came from, where she heard any of those words. or what the game was that involved that character. No idea.

Mark

Oh man. Yeah.

Terry

No, and it was it was just everything stopped as soon as she said that. And I was like, I have no idea how.

Mark

Quietly slip out of the room at that point and go he' s over there.

Terry

I'm just going to go back to reading my thing. I'm just going to pretend none of that happened.

Mark

You crack on testicle chicken. He's behind the curtain.

Terry

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was like. I'm not, I'm not even gonna. I'm not gonna even do this one I've got a couple of what the flip moments.

Mark

Very, very recently, as in just Two days ago, I had a great one from Jay. Where he went, All of my favorite quotes are either from Lao Tzu's The Art of War It's a strong opener, right?

Terry

I mean, that's so powerful. What an opening sentence.

Mark

All of my favourite quotes are either from Lao Tzu's The Art of War. or from myself.

Terry

Which is equally equally insightful. And ageless. So I said, Oh, okay.

Mark

So which of your own do you like then, Jay? And he went, Okay, here's one. If a crab starts tunnelling into the ground. Don't chase that crab unless it's wronged you.

Terry

Words to live by, right?

Mark

I mean, it's like, are you sure that's not Lao Tzu?

Terry

No, no, I wanted one from you.

Mark

It was like quite what scenario you'd find yourself in where a crab has wronged you. enough to seek vengeance by tunnelling into the ground to find

Terry

I will have my vengeance!

Mark

That was a wonderful moment. Um, another What the Flip moment I had is from India who when we had snow very recently, she's not seen that much snow before, so she reacted with absolute wonder and she ran in and went, Daddy, Daddy, I don't believe it. This is like heaven threw up.

Terry

That's exactly right, yeah.

Mark

That's wasn't what I was getting from it, but sure, no Okay.

Terry

I will never look at snow in the same way again. No, no, no, no, it's now it's heaven's vomit.

Mark

Nice. stuff.

Terry

Adds to the magic.

Mark

Absolutely. This is probably a good time for me to say that if any listeners have any what the flip moments that you want to share with me, please do. I always love to hear your what the flip moments and I'll uh happily read them out on the podcast. If you've got any, feel free to email me at hello at neuroshambles. com, or you can leave a message on the brand new website, which is www. neuroshambles. com. You can either write a message out like all the squares do. Or you can leave a voice note, which is technology gone wild. So yeah, so have a look at that and it'd be great to hear from people. Okay, that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Firstly, Terry, thank you so much for coming on and talking to me. about having me, mate. The dad's perspective, it's lovely to talk to another dad about it and you know, share what's going on for us. So thank you for that. Thank you also to Neuroshambles listeners far and wide for continuing to download. For recommending it and for all of your lovely reviews. If you want to review it on any of the podcast platforms, it goes a huge way to helping other parents of neurodivergent kids understand that this isn't Utter shit. It's actually quite fun in there. So, yeah, so if you could give it a good review, that would be awesome. You can also follow me on the socials on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok. That's it for now. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life!