The knotty issue of hair care | Rebecca Huseyin

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode fifty two of Neuroshambles. Thanks for joining me once more for yet another bewildered rummage through the minutiae of our neurochaotic lifestyles. I've got another fun episode for you as I speak to a returning guest and we unpick a topic that I'm sure will be familiar to a lot of you. We've also got some of the old classics Neurodiversity Champions, Tiny Epic Wins, and What the Flip Moments, so let's dispense of the faff and get stuck in.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So, this week's guest is someone who is returning to Neuroshambles for a second time, having appeared back in season two. As well as being a parent of a neurodivergent child, she is a prolific advocate. She's a trainer for the PDA Society and she writes a wonderful blog called A Boy Less Ordinary, which you should definitely check out if you haven't already. I am delighted to be able to welcome back to the show it's Rebecca Hussain. How you doing? Hello.

Rebecca

Hello.

Mark

It's taken a while, hasn't it?

Rebecca

It has. Yeah, we all need to kind of take time off to screen into the the abyss every now and again. And stare at the void for a bit, you know. Um yeah, but you know what? The main thing is we come back to this wonderful bubble you've created where you can get it all off your chest. And for correct me if I'm wrong. This is a safe space for swearing, isn't it?

Mark

Oh, swearing is actually mandatory on this one.

Rebecca

Oh, I couldn't quite remember, but thank fuck

Mark

That's what I mean. Absolutely.

Rebecca

Yay.

Mark

All right. So, for those Neuroshamblers who haven't heard you before or can't remember about your setup from the previous episode we recorded. Tell us about what's going on at your end, Rebecca, in terms of neurodivergencies at play in your household.

Rebecca

Oh, well, my dog is one hundred percent autistic. That's all I can say. Diagnosis confirmed this year. won't wear a coat, won't go out to wee or poo and the same meal every single day, exactly the same time.

Mark

Oh man.

Rebecca

So um oh, you're asking about the humans as well.

Mark

I mean, it's good to get the full personnel there.

Rebecca

My son's fourteen. getting really into throes of puberty now.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

So just when you think you're kind of getting there, as in terms of like, do you know what I mean?

Mark

You've plateaued for a bit.

Rebecca

I've plateaued. I help, I train parents. I've trained professionals. People have asked me for advice, Mark. And I'm a bit like, do you know what? I think I can do that. I think I can give advice because I've been there. I've been on the ground. I've been screaming into a cupboard before. And then puberty comes along and throws a hand grenade into your face, and things don't work like they're supposed to. Work, so it's been a ride, but we're probably in a bit of a plateau of puberty at the moment. I won't go into too much detail, yeah.

Mark

Okay, there's probably a separate episode, same, yeah.

Rebecca

God, please. But yep, my son, Jem, fourteen, he is he's doing all right, he's doing good. So we have the EOTAS, so the education other than School, which you've had Heidi on a few times, haven't you? Striking her. She does all that great work with EOTAS. So, yeah, heavy on the learning without

Mark

knowing he's learning and the sort of stealth learning.

Rebecca

Stealth, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And kind of the stepping stone approach that, oh, you you want to know about that. Well, you're going to have to do this bit of maths. But that I make it sound like we're actually doing stuff. We don't do anything really that looks like learning. But um we went to London this week, which was really good. And that was a little educational trip, which Didn't look like one, but yeah, so um where we're ticking along, we're ticking along quite nicely.

Mark

And he's diagnosed autistic. Is any other facets to his character?

Rebecca

Well, he doesn't have a PDA diagnosis. I gave up trying to get one.

Mark

But I think we all recognize it, right? You know it when you see it. You know it when you see it.

Rebecca

Yeah. So, um But he's PDA and again, he's ADHD, but he's fourteen and he's not going to go and sit quietly and answer questions. About his attention span or anything like that. So he's got all the colours of that.

Mark

Just not all the badges.

Rebecca

Just not all the badges, and you know what? I mean, look, you could. I'm not going to die on that hill.

Mark

No, no, no. There's a lot of hills. Yeah, yeah, so you don't really need them. If you, as long as you know and you've got the information

Rebecca

You need to be able to exactly, and as long as you can get it all in in the EHCP, as long as you can, then if you get it all in the EHCP. It can be completely ignored at some point in the future, which is the most important thing, isn't it?

Mark

Okay, perfect. Well, thank you for introducing us or reintroducing us to your setup. Let us launch into this. particular topic of the week, which is very pertinent to me at the moment.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So this week's topic of the week is something that Rebecca and I started talking about as part of the personal hygiene episode. We recorded back in season two, and that is the subject of hair care, which was meant to be just a tiny part of that episode. But we both ended up having so many horror stories around it, we realized quite soon it warranted an episode all by itself. So, this is where we are now. Hair care in general, I think, seems to be a unique challenge that many of us face with our kids, whether that is washing it or brushing it or getting it cut it tends to cause a disproportionate degree of dysregulation, I think, with our neurodifferent kids. So it's something that I really wanted to take a closer look at and try and work out What's going on, and just reassure myself that I'm not the only one experiencing this? Now, I think I already have a fairly good idea of your answer to this question, Rebecca, but how amenable is Jem to general hair care?

Rebecca

Oh, absolutely fucking not. It's a utter shit show. And it has been since the day he was born. So there you go. Episode done.

Mark

Exactly. Did he come out with like a big coiff of hair?

Rebecca

He came out with lots and lots of hair and then it fell out. And then once it grew back, Was it? I kind of blame. I've been because obviously I've been thinking a little bit about because we're doing this episode. I've been sort of going back in my head and thinking about kind of why I think he's so anti don't touch my scalp, don't touch my hair. And I wonder sometimes whether or not I might have made a little bit of a rod for my own back because I was one of those annoying mums. who thought my baby or my toddler's hair was pretty when it was long.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

And he had the delicate curl and it was all just beautiful. And I did I do remember probably saying More than I should. Oh, I don't want him to have it cut because it's so cute. And I don't don't want him to cut his curls out. I don't know whether or not.

Mark

Up until what age, though?

Rebecca

I don't know, five or six.

Mark

Okay, you don't think he was like storing like stewing on that and storing it for later. Oh, shower.

Rebecca

No, but I yeah, um, in all seriousness, I remember when it got to the stage where people were sort of like You know, he's going to go to school, and I remember thinking, Oh, yeah, we'll try this haircut business, and it worked a couple of times, but then it didn't work. So, like a lot of things with our Our kids. They work while they work.

Mark

And then they're like, yeah, hard no from now on. Yeah, yeah, forevermore.

Rebecca

The other day, I was talking to Jem about when he was younger and kind of When he was more compliant, shall we say. And his words were, and I think it applies to hair, was Oh yeah, when I didn't know I had free will.

Mark

Yeah, you nailed the dynamic there.

Rebecca

Yeah, yeah, back back then.

Mark

So before we get on to the, frankly, nightmarish scenario of them having their hair cut. We try brushing their hair early on, I think. Just the the the process of simply brushing it is not easy. It is fraught with danger. Certainly, with at least one of my lot. What about Jem? How does he respond to the brushing of hair?

Rebecca

You're triggering me.

Mark

You're twitching.

Rebecca

I'm twitching. Do you know, I remember the last time I was allowed to brush his hair.

Mark

Wow.

Rebecca

It was twenty nineteen and my boss was getting married, and I bought him a little, um a little jacket and he had a little bow tie and his hair was Poker straight and kind of in a bit of a bowl haircut that I'd done. That's another story. And I remember saying, Mummy, brush your hair. And I think he was about eight.

Mark

Yes, okay.

Rebecca

And I remember brushing his hair and he's as he stood there, you know, with his halo of hair, looking amazing. And I actually took a mental picture of it. Because that was the last time.

Mark

That was just Did you realize at that point?

Rebecca

I think something in me knew because it had been getting a bit ropey.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

I was on Very dodgy ground.

Mark

I mean, I'm impressed you got him in a jacket. That was the tipping point, right? The moment. It's like, yeah, this is too much. You might have got away with just the jacket or just the brushing of the hair, but not the jacket and the hair.

Rebecca

We didn't make it. We made it to the wedding. We made it through a church service and then we fucked off home.

Mark

I think that was the day you broke him. He was just like, yeah, I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. Compliance is not for me. Look where it leads me.

Rebecca

Exactly. But you know, since then. I have never sat down with him in front of me and and brushed his hair without him either running without him running with his hair caught in it, so that he's been dragging me round the house. without him screaming or shouting or swearing. So I just don't really.

Mark

Does he do his own hair?

Rebecca

Oh, God, no, we're not. Absolutely not. No, I am I'm a ninja nighttime brusher.

Mark

Right. Okay.

Rebecca

So I brush his hair when he's asleep.

Mark

Again, by stealth.

Rebecca

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

How do you achieve this?

Rebecca

Oh God. So I bought a head torch about well, I used to I used to pick up my phone and hold my with the torch on.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

And I used to hold my phone in my mouth. And but then I'd kind of dribble on my phone and like nearly.

Mark

Also, if someone rings you at that and he wakes up, you're fucked.

Rebecca

Yes, midnight.

Mark

What are you doing, woman?

Rebecca

No, but yeah, I I used to I used to I say used to because he's actually got short hair now. So I used to do it not as much. But sort of the twenty twenties, kind of the early twenty twenties, I would wait until he'd c fallen asleep and I would pop my head torch on.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

I would get a variety of combs and kind of whatever I thought I needed. So A tooth comb, maybe for kind of loosening. I'd have a brush. Full outfit. Oh, god, and I'd lay them all out on the bed, and I'd even get scissors if I needed them. I've got hairdressing scissors and things kind of tucked away. And I would start head torch on, you know, the Mission Impossible Music soundtrack going on in the background. You know, a bead of sweat.

Mark

It's just sounds terrifying.

Rebecca

Oh, it's horrible. And then I would just start on one side and then just kind of do what I can.

Mark

You'd sneak into his room. Did he ever wake up?

Rebecca

Uh, he never woke up.

Mark

Jesus, that is impressive.

Rebecca

But there was one night. So this went on for years.

Mark

And obviously, and his his how often? How often did you do this? Just try to build an image of it

Rebecca

It kind of depended. So as his ha he'd never had his hair cut after twenty nineteen.

Mark

Oh, yeah.

Rebecca

Until, I don't know, three years later. So his hair got, you know, down to his shoulders and longer and longer. And you know, with with activities like swimming and things, if you don't brush your hair, it begins to dreadlock. And he's got extremely thick hair as well, because my husband's Turkish Cypriot, so he's got extremely thick black hair. So I would judge it. I'd kind of look at him and I'd think, is tonight going to be a good night? And I'd kind of think, wow, okay, sleeping deeply. I can see we've got a bit of a clump. Because I'd grade the things into that's just a knot, that's a clump, that one's a dreadlog. And I would just kind of probably every other night or

Mark

So quite a lot quite regularly then, you just got into this routine of ninja.

Rebecca

You just got into the routine. And it's one of those moments where you sort of stop and you think, if anyone could see me now. Who doesn't know what it's like having a PDA?

Mark

Absolutely. Yeah, totally. When people say, Hey, what were you up to last night? I was watching The Traitors. Oh, no, I was. I was crawling into my child's room under the cover of darkness. I spent two hours on a knot before sneaking out again in case he woke up.

Rebecca

But I'd get really into it. So he'd be kind of lying there asleep. And I'd think. Turn over, turn over, just because I need to do the other side of his head. So I do things like sort of flick him, poke him and because he's he did pre-puberty he slept like an absolute fucking log I can't tell you I mean He you could not wake the bugger up. So I would kind of try and poke him and turn over, and then he would turn over. But I kind of sit there with my phone, and I research sleep cycles.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

Oh my god, you really got into it. Yeah, because I wanted to know when would be the optimum time to actually comb the hair. Because no point doing it when he's just drifting off if he's going to wake up.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

So I needed to know when he was in REM.

Mark

Have you genuinely have you ever thought of a career in this? No. The hair ninja. I thought. All the people up and down the country with PDA kids. Just call you up and then they don't even know you've been. They just notice that the hair is looking glorious in the morning and you just drop them an invoice on your way out.

Rebecca

I would have to come in from the ceiling like Tom Critchell. I absolutely would. With a mask, you know.

Mark

I mean, the parents would let you in, but that's just not part of it. Where's the fun in that?

Rebecca

I nearly got found out. Because it was a night when I had to actually cut some like really matted clumps bits out. Because obviously, this isn't a foolproof system because you can't always kind of get to where you want to do. So, um and by this point his hair was probably mid-back 'cause it's very, very long. Very long. And I I one night I was um a couple of years ago I was trimming clumps out and kind of I was doing all kinds of things, but I I cut a clump out which was underneath so you couldn't see it because you also have to be very careful that you can't leave any trace

Mark

Did he know just just... sorry to interrupt, right?

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Did he know that you were doing this? Or did he wake up and think the hair fairy had been? Like the tooth fairy?

Rebecca

Jem isn't really or wasn't Very body aware.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

So, I mean, he's the kind of young person I can say now who, if he was, I don't know, eating something and got ketchup on his face. He wouldn't be able to feel it.

Mark

That's exactly like Otto, yeah.

Rebecca

Yes. So he wasn't the sort of person that would run his fingers through his hair and think, Mm, mm, something feels different. He wasn't really aware. Um but I did actually leave a clump of hair on his pillow that I'd cut out. One night next to him.

Mark

So as he woke up, what, like a warning, like a mafia thing. Take care of your hair or I will.

Rebecca

Yes, and he did he did say what's this? And I was busted. Because I said, because what I used to do is throw the club if I was cutting, or I'd throw them over the side of the bed because it's dark. And I would just hope that I would remember in the morning that I then had to pick them up. But I forgot I left this one on his pillows. Like a dead rat or something.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

And I did have to confess that I had actually chopped a bit of his hair out and I got I mean, a sensible way of discussing it would be to say, We lost trust. He lost trust with me that day. But he was just really, really pissed off with me. But we got over it. He got over it.

Mark

You kept going back in.

Rebecca

Oh yeah.

Mark

But did he know that you kept going back in?

Rebecca

No, no, I never made that mistake again. I mean, that would not be if I had a C V and this was on it, I would not sort of put a note on that.

Mark

I don't think people would be asking Jem for a reference on that.

Rebecca

No. No, they wouldn't be. No, but um it's been it's been pretty successful.

Mark

But like I said, we have genuinely staggering. That is astonishing to hear to hear.

Rebecca

I don't think this is particularly relatable, really, is it? Because I I Well, actually, saying that, I have on that on a certain Facebook group that isn't awful that's extremely funny, a couple of other parents have mentioned the stealth nighttime.

Mark

Yeah, okay.

Rebecca

So I don't think I'm the only one.

Mark

No, what is what is relatable is the insane shit that we have to do as parents of neurodivergent kids just to try and keep some vague semblance of Respectability. Not much.

Rebecca

It's only really when you then mention it to somebody that you think to yourself, oh God, that's not normal. That's insane.

Mark

That's not normal, is it? What I do is insane. I mean, with my lot, th uh as with anything to do with them, there are various degrees of compliance and tolerance for the hairbrushing. So, um, Otto's hair at the moment is fairly long and is he's always scruffy. Like always, it's just, you know, he's got no interest in being neat and tidy. It's not even a consideration for him, like you were saying with Jem. It's, you know. Don't even think about it. So his hair is unkempt, but it it matches his overall vibe. Do you know what I mean? It's not, it's not jarring. It's like, oh, there he is. You know. So I'm not massively concerned with it. If I need to brush it, but I don't really. He's like, Yeah, whatever. Do what you need to do. Fine.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

With Jay, as I mentioned in the personal hygiene episode He takes quite good care of his general grooming. He sees it as a responsibility of his, and he doesn't, he's not interested in us doing it. So I don't know what would happen if I tried to brush his hair. But he does it himself.

Rebecca

And how old is he now?

Mark

So he's 12. He's going to be 13 this year, early this year.

Rebecca

You should take credit for that. You seriously, you should take the credit for that.

Mark

I mean, I will, but it's got nothing to do with me. Nothing that I have said or done has influenced that decision in any way whatsoever. India is a whole different story because it is an ongoing battle with India. Because she likes to have her hair long. If it was up to her, it would just be as long as it could possibly be. It would be matted and knotty and dreadlocked, you know. And and I guess I think I have a bit of parental guilt uh uh about not wanting him to send her to school like that. You know, it's like in the house Yeah, I'm fine. But when it goes outside, that you do have, or I certainly have that parental guilt of going, I'm going to be judged for this. This is the thing.

Rebecca

And actually, there were times when I thought to myself, if somebody really, I mean, obviously, he's not gone to school since 2020. So we're kind of below the radar in a lot of ways. But there is, on a serious note, I I did at one point when when things were quite bad with his hair, think, what if somebody thinks he Like neglect, yeah, yeah, and also, like you say, genuine concern as well, yeah, like you say with Jay as well. I mean, often he doesn't, you know, he's wearing a really old t-shirt because it's lovely and it's soft, yeah, and it might have a stain on it. and then, you know, um, there was the crocs he wore for three years that were too small for him because he didn't want and you you get to a point where you sort of step back and you think Christ on a bike. You know, if somebody really wanted to.

Mark

Yeah, social services, if they took a a glimpse, would be like, oh shit. Alarms would go off. A legion of people would come and start asking questions, which, as we know, does not go down well.

Rebecca

No, no, we don't want any of that.

Mark

No, yeah. So I did, I do genuinely still have that like, I can't send. India out of the house like that. Like, they've already taken a look at Otto. Doesn't matter. I could brush Otto's hair for a week and it would still look messy just because of his general vibe, right? So India, uh, it gets knotty and matted and it it just looks bad. So I feel like I need to do it, but she absolutely hates me brushing her hair. Yeah, and I think part of it, as I think you might have sort of touched on earlier, I think that she's got a very high level of sensory sensitivity Particularly around the scalp. I don't know if that's a thing for neurodivergence at all.

Rebecca

I think it really is. And I think possibly. It's been funny to talk about it, but on a serious note, what Jem does say to me is, I can't stand anyone touching my scalp. I can't

Mark

Okay, that's interesting to know.

Rebecca

You know, and um, even just touching it makes him feel extremely uncomfortable. So, you know, I can understand if you're brushing and there's a knot and you pull a kid's hair out, yes, yes, And that could absolutely make them think that they don't want that to be done any more. But there has always been even to touch the scalp. He he will never wear hats or anything like that because he can't bear things. So I j yeah, I'm sure with India as well. And like everything with PDA, it's not just the fact that they they it's a demand that they don't want to do. It's it's usually a sort of there's a cloud of different things going on there. There's the sensory sensitivity, isn't there? The loss of autonomy.

Mark

Yes, exactly.

Rebecca

It's never really just one thing. And our kids do really suffer with intolerance of uncertainty as well, don't they? So if they don't know the outcome, they don't know what's gonna you know you're brushing your hair they don't know if it's gonna hurt they're on edge so I think yeah there's there's a there's a lot to it and it is yeah you're right in saying that it's it might not even be a pain thing

Mark

Because the thing is, with India, as I discussed in the refusal to seek medical attention episode, she will not really let on if she's hurt herself. But if I'm brushing her hair, the fucking drama of it all is like, oh, like that's the only time she will acknowledge that there's any kind of pain. And I don't think I think. It's not actual pain. I think it's that sensitivity or that resistance to having the scalp touch. So it becomes this massive deal. And obviously then when you start doing it, she fidgets and moves in unusual ways to try and get out of it, which causes more just makes me more clumsy and She tells me that I brush it like a gorilla. It's like I'm doing my best.

Rebecca

But the thing is, well, is we bring because we know that these situations and whether it's brushing, washing, having your hair cut, we know that they're a big deal because it's not our first rodeo. And so when we approach these situations

Mark

Ah, they smell the fear.

Rebecca

They smell the yeah, exactly. They can smell it. And we're bringing all of that baggage, aren't we, to the situation. So absolutely, yeah. It's um we can't be that sort of perfect robot parent. We just kind of we can't. I mean, it'd be brilliant if we could.

Mark

But they wouldn't like that anyway.

Rebecca

No, exactly.

Mark

They just unplug us and get on with life. So I find myself having to weigh it up with India of whether I fight a battle. over, you know, like a daily brush. Or if I leave it until it becomes a war and then it's like, you know, it's knotty and matted and really painful. And then it becomes much bigger deal. It's a trade-off, isn't it?

Rebecca

This is the thing. You know that if we went swimming today and I said, if we wash your hair today, it's not going to get matted. It's not going to get clumpy. It's not going to be diffic Difficult. I'll do it tomorrow. I know we won't do it tomorrow. This is when you desperately want to help because you know these things are so hard for them. What's really awkward as well is when people try to give you advice.

Mark

Oh, always.

Rebecca

You know, someone once said to me, of course, yeah, um, what did they say? Um, if they don't like it getting wet, why don't you just use dry shampoo? Brilliant. I'll get a can of something that's loud and makes a loud noise, makes a terrible smell that he can't tolerate. Powder comes everywhere. I'll get him to sit still, put his head over, I'll spray it on the No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, you know, I may as well just set his hair on fire.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca

He's going to have the same outcome.

Mark

It's a nice idea, but you do not know what you're dealing with here.

Rebecca

No, or just or just cut her hair short, Mark.

Mark

Yeah, I've had that.

Rebecca

Cut her hair short.

Mark

And I would be well up for that. Like, wicked. Yeah, I'm all for India having her hair short because you wouldn't have the issues, but. She is very adamant that she doesn't want to do that. Um and I think that's primarily because she would have to get a haircut and that's a whole separate shit show which we'll go into later. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if when she gets older she'd just she'd just have dreadlocks. And, you know, that's fine. It would be her choice. As the parent, it's not ideal. But it's also not the end of the world, is it? I think you just got to strap in and accept that at some point, okay?

Rebecca

This is the thing. It's one foot in what we know as parents of autistic kids and PDAs It really isn't the end of the world. You know, there's that whole mantra of, is it really worth it?

Mark

Yeah, pick your battles.

Rebecca

But on the other hand, there's the But but just do it because what will people think? And it's so simple and it's so easy and and it's and you you want them to fit in with society and not look like little scruffy reprobates going around, and you don't want them to be judged.

Mark

But they already behave like little reprobates going around. So you know, at least there's consistency of the theme. I was going to ask if you've got any advice on hairbrushing and what works for you, but you've already Given us very vivid detail about sneaking into his bedroom at night. So that's worked for you. Have you found anything else that does the job?

Rebecca

I was. Sent by my mother-in-law. She thought she'd found a miracle hairbrush on Amazon. So the package arrived, addressed to me, and I opened it. And I thought, fuck's sake, hairbrush. You're only sending this to me because you think he looks like a mess and you're sick of it.

Mark

And it's a very demand avoidant way

Rebecca

Why don't you try this? And right now, I mean, at this stage, I'm 14 years in. If someone says, Why don't you try this? straight away they're going to get the finger from me. I'm not listening. Anyway, opened the hairdresser. who loves a package. Glad he loves a package, especially if it's not addressed to him. What's that? I said, oh, it it's a hairbrush. Um Nenne sent it. That's what we call um his grandma. Um Nenne sent it. Oh, wow. gets hold of the hairbrush, puts it to his head, and I thought, What the hell? What the hell is going on? So so so I thought I would test This theory. So I said, Excuse me, it's mine. And he said, no, it's mine. And he brushed. His hair with it.

Mark

Oh, that is absolute textbook PDA parenting, Rebecca.

Rebecca

Not twice. No, Mark, I was so fucked off. Because I've been trying to get him to brush his hair for God knows how many years. My sodding mother in law sends a cheap Amazon hairbrush in the post. Little fucker picks it up, starts doing his hair with it. I was livid. I was absolutely livid. Anyway, she's messaging me. I wonder if you got my hairbrush.

Mark

Oh, God.

Rebecca

Yes. How was it? Um, such a body's daughter's autistic and she really likes it. Well, well, in that case It's going to be great for all autistic kids, isn't it? But she was right.

Mark

Oh, that's so annoying. Well, now, of course, she was.

Rebecca

She was right. She was. And I'll give her that. She was right for a week.

Mark

Ah, okay.

Rebecca

And then the novelty went on.

Mark

Yeah, that's the thing about PDA, right?

Rebecca

Exactly. Works now, works for a while, isn't necessarily going to work ever again. But I must admit, I've never. been so irritated with somebody sending me something. Isn't that churlish? I think that's the word. It's really churlish of me, and I I'm not proud of my behaviour.

Mark

But it is one of those things that, yeah, when someone suggests something, it's like, fuck you, what do you know? Oh, oh, it works. Okay, fine. I'll pipe down.

Rebecca

But it is part of my nighttime brushing toolkit.

Mark

Okay, well, that's good.

Rebecca

That's really good.

Mark

I've sort of swallowed my pie. I mean, if you send me a link to that said brush, I might include it. I will.

Rebecca

I'm sure it's like. China's finest.

Mark

We had something similar, I think, with India. And we got a a specific type of brush that is supposed to be gentle on the hair. And that seemed to do the job. I think that made a bit of a difference, definitely. I got one that smelt of coconut as well, which she liked the smell of it. So that sort of that brought me a few brushes. but not re you know, she still kind of hates it. My best trick with India is to do it in the bath. So when she's in the bath I brush her hair when she's under water.

Rebecca

Yes. Oh, underwater. That's exactly.

Mark

That makes a because you're not, you don't have that friction. And she's already a bit more relaxed because she loves being in the water. And it's just been freshly washed. So that's the best thing that I've done. And again, I make a bit of a game out of it and make it a bit ridiculous. And I take, like, I hold the back of her head so she's all relaxed. And I'm like, just relax, madam. And then I pretend That I'm brushing a lion or whatever it is at the time. And that seems to do the job. But if she's deciding that she doesn't want me to do that for that particular day, because I have to give the option. You know, do you want me to do your hair? No, I'll do it. Then she very, very typically doesn't do it or doesn't do it well enough. And then we have the whole shit show of trying to brush it when it's dry and knotty again. Yeah.

Rebecca

Yeah. I I mean, this is the thing. I'd love to sit here and say I've got tried and tested ideas, but actually I don't because what like, you know, if something works For five minutes, it might never work for us. I just think the biggest thing I could say, and again, easy for me to say because I don't have a child that I have to parade around school and all that kind of stuff, but they get there in the end. I mean, we've got short hair now. Whichever of your sons you were talking about, it doesn't get really brushed very often, but it's sure, it's kind of manageable. You know, it's just that whole thing of the more pressure and stress that we put on ourselves. they can smell it coming out of our pores and they will run a mile. So it's like everything, I suppose, with PDA. You can't pretend not to care. You genuinely have to come to a place where you try and truth about it. It's kind of like it's like the teeth brushing teeth. It's like getting washed. It's like I don't know, wearing clothes sometimes. Yeah, you've got to really change your own perception, haven't you? Because otherwise, they know and actually want it, and it'll make them not do it either.

Mark

Absolutely. The other successful one I find with India is just doing it when the T V's on as well. Just sneaking in and doing it. That tends to uh To have a big impact. She's she's distracted by something else, and that buys me a little bit more time. Like, I can't, you know, I she won't allow me to handle her like a gorilla. She'll remind me if I'm heavy-handed, but broadly, it buys me a little bit more tolerance, I think. Not acceptance, but a tiny bit more tolerance. When when India's hair was really long, I did, you know, think about tying it up or tying it back or pigtails, just something to get it out. And she was like a hard no on any of that.

Rebecca

Same. Jem can't can't put anything in hair anything.

Mark

I think it's maybe it's the tightness of it. I don't know what it was, but it's going back to that scalp again, isn't it?

Rebecca

That sort of anything to do with pulling the scalp, touching the scalp. Brushing, yeah, scalps are no good, no gozo man.

Mark

So, that option wasn't on the cards, uh, hair clips wasn't on the cards, nope, hats were not on the cards, nope, so yeah, yeah, we're screwed, aren't Yeah, completely. So the next thing I wanted to talk about in terms of hair care, and this one's really triggering for me, is Nick Homes.

Rebecca

Oh we have never had nits.

Mark

Oh, you oh my gosh.

Rebecca

I've never had nits. I think I've there's some sort of gene I've got that's passed antigen that repels them. I cannot Comment on what it's like to have nits. I can only imagine the hell scape.

Mark

Well, let me take you through it because it's a fucking nightmare. Now, I think part of the fact is that Jem's been out of school, so he's not jostling with knit adult children on a daily basis 'cause that's the thing. Children have no awareness of personal space.

Rebecca

Exactly.

Mark

They're well grotty. And so all it takes is one or two of them to have knits, and all of a sudden it spreads like wildfire and it's Oh, Jesus. So I dread it.

Rebecca

Have you seen the episode of Motherland?

Mark

No, I haven't.

Rebecca

Oh, it's absolutely brilliant, where they basically go on a witch hunt for the for patient zero.

Mark

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I do get that because sometimes what we get now, because we've got the WhatsApp group, sometimes you'll get the message, the dreaded message, and my heart sinks when someone sends a message going Oh, little Molly has got knits. Oh, or I I found some knits on Molly earlier, so you might want to get your kids checked as well. You know, they're not owning up to it, they're just saying, Oh just happened to find knits on my daughter. You know, and then there's usually sorry, and then what really gets me is the laughter emoji. If they do a laughed emoji, then it's like this is not an emoji situation, love. This is not a laughing matter over here. I think we need to take Molly out of the equation. I think we've found what the problem is. It's not nits, it's fucking Molly.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Because obviously that everyone else will get their kids and go, Oh, sorry, we've got to do the You know, do the nitcomb and we'll okay, mummy. I'll sit completely still while you brush the nitcomb through my hair, and I'll, you know, and maybe I'll sing a song while we do it. You never know.

Rebecca

It's a bit smelly, mummy, isn't it? Oh, dear. Oh, well.

Mark

But at my end, it is like lock all the doors. Oh, God. It is, you know, and again, Otto Pretty fine with it. He's not, you know, again, he just sort of gets on with it. He's not too fussed. And again, Jay's not been too bad. It's an India. India thing. India is like maybe it's the scalp sensitivity. But if you are you familiar with nit combs?

Rebecca

I have seen.

Mark

So nitcombs are like they've got metal prongs and they're very uh tight together and you've got to scrape them. So if she's not cool with me just doing a normal hairbrush, the idea of me scraping a metal nitcomb through every strand, 'cause it has to be every strand. You can't half arse it because if one of the fuckers remains, then there's a whole party going on.

Rebecca

Oh, Mark, I wouldn't do it. I'd lie. I'd lie and say they were done. I would shave the head.

Mark

Send them in like GI Jane.

Rebecca

You've done it. Say you've done it. It's not worth your life.

Mark

No, because but then so the other issue I have with India is that she has this real kind of fear of ants. So, I mean, knits are kind of like worse ants. If you've got a fear of like small things crawling, right, in your hair, like so it's not even that we could just kind of look the other way. If she feels it or knows there's something off there.

Rebecca

Can you feel nits?

Mark

It depends how bad it is. I don't know. I don't think I've ever had them, to be honest. But I know, but our kids have. And it's it's emotional because you've got to get the shampoo. And as you say, the nit shampoo stinks like it smells really bad and it's also really oily, so it kind of feels pretty Grim on the scalp as well, and you have to keep checking. It's not even like a one-oh, there are no knits there. You've got to keep going. So it's an absolute nightmare. And then you wait. another few weeks and then someone someone hasn't done it at their end. Do you know what I mean? One or two parents just let it slide and then it starts again. So it's a f oh, I hate it. I absolutely hate it.

Rebecca

My heart actually goes out to you, but I still feel like I've got off lightly without the knits.

Mark

Yeah, I can assure you, you definitely have. As in anyone who has had the absolute Nightmare of of nit combs.

Rebecca

So sorry.

Mark

What, you know. It's fine. We need a little chart on the wall saying, you know 20 days nit free. But then it's just one text message, and it just ruins my week. Fucking Molly again, is it?

Rebecca

Well, you know, at the end of the day, if Molly's allowed still allowed to come into school with hair, just shave her, shave her, tar her and feather.

Mark

In the playground, pin her down. Come on, guys, I'm sick of this shit.

Rebecca

What about a bell round her neck so that when she walks close, all the other kids are.

Mark

Scatter. I love it. Yeah. That's the answer. So obviously the key to keeping their hair manageable Is washing it as regularly as you can, as you dare. And we covered that in the previous episode. of bathing in the personal hygiene one. If you haven't already listened to that, there's all kinds of fun and games in that one. So I'll say I'll put a link in the show notes. But, you know, obviously the process of getting them to wash their hair is a massive battle in itself. which never helps. And we've already talked about the trauma of trying to get them into the bath or the shower in the first place. But washing their hair in the bath is that sort of the the that next level of involvement. You know, that's the holy grail for me. What of doing it done?

Rebecca

Oh, yeah. In the bath, washing a body and washing the hair. Oh, my God. It's a dream.

Mark

It's the dream. And you can't do that one in a ninja style when he's asleep.

Rebecca

No, exactly. I have thought about it, but no, I've never found a way to

Mark

Drug him, chloroform him, drag him in the bath, obviously, you know, like an inflatable neck pillow so he doesn't drown, and then just have  at it, Rebecca.

Rebecca

Oh my god. Don't give me ideas.

Mark

I just saw a moment in your eyes where you thought about whether that might be feasible. But yeah, so that's not on the cards for you then. Washing the hair in the bath. How do you navigate that then?

Rebecca

We manage it it's pretty good now. I think we're down to about once a fortnight, Mark, of which I feel so smug. Genuinely. And we've transitioned to the bath. Used to be only every time we went swimming.

Mark

And you did also tell us about the paddling pool outside.

Rebecca

Yeah, we've done yeah, the paddling pool. How could I forget? I'll tell you why I've forgotten. because I've blocked it out of my mind because it's freezing and it's a nightmare and I detest it. But yeah, obviously you have to be as flexible as possible.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

And if that works for you, um yeah, so we've transitioned. From the paddling pool, nice. We've transitioned into the bath. We had a short stop with washing hair in the lounge. Would you like to hear how?

Mark

Would I? Yes, I would.

Rebecca

Because I have to say, it's fucking ridiculous and I don't see the point. But anyway, I have one of those you know, those IKEA Cheap and cheerful, like here, rocking chairs that kind of oh, yes, I do.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

So he said, I shall sit on there and you I shall hang my hair over the back of the chair. Now, this is when it was kind of almost waist length. I said Okay, right. Thinking, I'm thinking to myself, he's agreed to have a house.

Mark

Sounds a pretty good solution as well. So I don't want to look at you.

Rebecca

I know, exactly. I don't want to look at you. So I said, okay, fine. So he did that. And I said. Okay, just need to like get water from bathroom into lounge. And I think any other parent at this point would have been like, absolutely, this is ridiculous. And I was thinking, could I maybe get the hose pipe? Or one of the shower tap, you know, kind of so in the end I was just so grateful because I could I just could imagine ecosystem Living in his hair at this point. It was just terrifying to think of what was going on. So I put the chair on some towels to kind of pad the carpet. and got a bowl kind of underneath his hair and just poured jugs of water onto his hair, which then went all over the carpet. I was padding around in a sopping wet carpet. pouring water onto his hair, shampooing it and then having to rinse I hadn't thought it through at all.

Mark

I saw you spotted your window and you fucking went for it.

Rebecca

And I went for it. Hell for leather. Didn't look back. And yeah, it was a shit show. The dog was, you know, running from the room, dripping. There was water on the coffee table. The plants were getting it. It was just mad. But he accepted it. He accepted it. He said it was like a hair salon.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

I mean, it would literally be one of the worst hair salons you've been into in your life if it was. And yeah, so we had a wash and a rinse. and then he sort of sacheted off, and I was just left with I mean, I needed to sort of like pump water out of it. It was ridiculous. This chair was soaked It was just madness. But I'm not sorry because this, you know, it's what we do. And he then had clean hair.

Mark

Did he request it again?

Rebecca

He did, but I somehow managed to say no. I don't know how I did it. I don't know how I did it, but we we then sort of transition into the bath.

Mark

Okay. Nice maneuvering.

Rebecca

Yeah, I and bath, screens, snacks. drinks. I got some sort of like, you know, um l little sort of cute lights that you put under the water and all that. He had a fucking scented candle at one point. I mean, you know, I mean, he's like he's in the sort of sanctuary spa. Scented candle, fluffy towel.

Mark

Come on, it's once a year. Let him live a little.

Rebecca

Now it's happening in the bath. So I mean, I'm winning at life.

Mark

Yeah, my work here is done. Yeah, absolutely. With my lot, again, Jay does it on his own. No worries. That he does a good job on that front. That's not a problem. Otto actually quite likes it because he likes being submerged in water. So he'll duck his head down and get it completely wet. Then I will completely cover it in shampoo. Then he looks at me with a massive smile on his face and then he dunks his head completely under and he will not come up for air until I've rinsed all of the shampoo off under the water and then tapped him on the bum twice to say that he can now get up and breathe. I don't know how it's evolved to that, but it is like I am gonna try and drown myself unless you opt me out of it.

Rebecca

An integral part of when whenever we go swimming, whenever we're in water, whether it's swimming, whether it's the thank you for reminding me, the paddling pool in the back garden. Or if he's in the bath, he sounds very similar to Otto. There's a sensory experience which he is getting from the feeling of really, nearly being drowned. And he absolutely loves it. I mean, it's just another one of those things to add to the list of things that I really hope social services never find out.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

You know, drown me, mummy, drown me, he's shouted before. He wants to be held under the water and he loves water being poured on him. You know, that sort of slashing.

Mark

Oh, India the other day, this is slight aside, right? I've got a rain shower in our bath and I was like, Do you want to have a shower? And she was like, Yeah. So I put the shower on and she put the plug in and then lay down in the bath with the rain just falling on her face and w the bath filled up from the shower. She was in there for ages and she Absolutely loved it. It was like her best experience ever.

Rebecca

Wonderful.

Mark

I did in the early days of this arrangement with Otto forget how many times I had to tap him on the bum. And I tapped him three times and he refused to come up. And I was getting really panicked at this point.

Rebecca

You forgot the code.

Mark

But he was very, yeah, he was very resistant to it. He was not letting me off the hook until I got the double tap, and then he's like, oh, thank God. So, Otto, fine. Jay, fine. And India is okay with it. To a degree. So, firstly, she wants to do it herself, but if I let her do it herself, she never does it properly. So, if she lets me do it, then we again have a bit of a game. where I have to pretend that I I'm it's for a head massage. So turn around, madam. And then I get it all soaked and then I start doing like a head massage and she just And it happens every time. This is the script where I do that, and she goes, Ah, that's the stuff, which is adorable and hilarious. So I do that, and then. She kind of dunks it. But if any shampoo gets in her eye, it is the end of the world. It is like it's so much drama And I wish I could really unpick what's going on here, but it's unusual for her to ever admit being in pain. But when it's to do with hair, or hair care, that it becomes like a massive issue. And I don't know quite why that is. Maybe she's already like right near the edge. you know, right in the boiling point by the whole scenario.

Rebecca

It's only what we're seeing, isn't it? I think that's the thing, and how how much you might be masking or pushing down those feelings. But Oh, yeah.

Mark

Yeah, then a bit of heavy handy brushing or a bit of shampoo in the eye becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. And then she.

Rebecca

Does she let you use um conditioner?

Mark

Take two bottles into the shower? I just wash. And go.

Rebecca

Wash and go. Do you know, great minds, for a very long time I used a wash and go as well.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

I really did, until I got cocky.

Mark

Why?

Rebecca

And I decided to start introducing two bottles.

Mark

Why would you do that?

Rebecca

I don't know. Because I'm stupid. I have no idea.

Mark

You got cocky. It was just like, yeah, I've no, I've got this. I've passed level one. Let's try the end of level boss.

Rebecca

Yes, exactly. It was a side quest I shouldn't have gone down because I was informed that conditioner leaves your hair feeling all soft and smooth.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

Apparently, that is

Mark

Horrible, absolutely awful. The feeling of softness and smoothness is horrible. Not the conditioner itself, just the fact that it feels clean.

Rebecca

This doesn't feel like my hair any more, mummy. You've made it all soft and smooth. God Almighty. So we must never ever use conditioning. Okay.

Mark

Unless you use cooking oils straight afterwards.

Rebecca

There you go, exactly. I might have to go back to wash and go. I'd forgotten about that actually. Thank you.

Mark

Oh, it works. Yeah, it's great. So, obviously, we've talked about brushing hair and we talked about nit combs and We've talked about hair washing, but I think you know the biggest battle that I face, certainly, and I'm sure many parents of neurodivergent kids face is the prospect of getting their hair cut. Because I think there are a lot of potential triggers there, and my kids generally are triggered in different ways by this. And obviously, there's a reason that Jem hasn't had his hair or hadn't had his hair cut in a long time, and it was down to his back. And that wasn't because of the lack of availability of barbers. Well, how do you how do you know what it's like in Dorset? I mean, I'm guessing. I'm just guessing. I'm throwing it out there.

Rebecca

No, you're right. It's actually we do have barbers, quite a lot of.

Mark

So, what was the reason that Jem was so averse to having his hair cut? What do you think?

Rebecca

I think, to be honest with you, that he probably had quite a horrible experience when he was very young, which I didn't sort of recognize as a horrible experience. And he used to be left with his grandma sometimes, my mum, and she used to have a mobile hairdresser used to come round. And I was informed once, I think, when I got back from work, back in the day. I think he was about 18 months old at the time, and he's had a rather bad reaction to hearing a hairdryer.

Mark

Okay, yeah.

Rebecca

Yeah. So that was the first time I remember thinking, oh That's unusual, yeah. That's unusual, that's right. And it kind of went downhill from there, really. And I think partly, perhaps I could have tried to, and I hate this phrase, but I'm going to say it anyway. Could I have helped him build some resilience to the hairdressers? Could I? Or did I do the opposite and think, No I were not going to go near a hairdresser's because he screamed his head off the last time and I want a quiet life. And we opted for that one, and we really didn't go very often.

Mark

So when you did go, you know, early on How was that experience then?

Rebecca

It was okay for a short period of time. I think because of the novelty of being somewhere sitting in the shiny red car, you know, with a Fake steering wheel in the hairdressers, being able to have any DVD you want. Yeah, I guess this is ten, twelve years ago now. Um, and it I guess because of that reason and because you know, of as he reminded me recently, not realizing that he has free will at this age. So I think, again, you can get away with a lot with novelty. But the older he got and the more he became aware of his own power.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

You know, with that great power.

Mark

The power of veto is very strong, isn't it?

Rebecca

It is very, very strong. Yeah. So I think But I shied away from it again as well because I was probably one of these annoying mums that was a bit like, well, so, just because he's a boy. you can have long hair, it's fine. You know, and um and we went to Steiner School and all of that, so he was in very good company with with very long hair. So, you know, it wasn't sort of like a short back and side.

Mark

I I presume that you were giving them the option to get his hair cut.

Rebecca

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so that's the, you know, and I was doing it myself at home. So I just got him used to doing little trims, and I was the boll haircut mum, you know, all of that. And we kind of just really stopped going to the hairdressers, I think, after about age four, age five maybe. And we tried going to a barber's when he was about seven. We got as far as it was actually one of my husband's cousins, it was a family barber. Got as far as going in, sitting down on the chair. Jem looked up and saw You know, the barbers' tools they have for shaving. It's the Turkish barbers.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

He saw the shaving tools, like a display. Of them, probably, yeah, and he got up and he bolted. Yeah, that's genuinely absolutely bolted, and I think he thought he was it was going to be sort of a Sweeny Todd type situation, yeah, absolutely.

Mark

Yeah, I got it. That's pretty alarming.

Rebecca

But I sort of mana he he didn't bolt out the front of the shop, but he bolted it to the back where the door was closed. I mean That was yeah. And after that at that point, he said, I never wanted to come in here anyway. They've got weapons in there. So we never yeah, that that was a bit of a that was a non-starter, yeah. So I just continued cutting his hair until I couldn't. That stopped as well. Because, oh, so well, funnily what you were saying about India and her scalp sensitivities, Jem's actually said to me before that it hurts when I cut his hair.

Mark

Okay, that's interesting.

Rebecca

Isn't it?

Mark

So yeah. Yeah, I think India might have something like that. And I've got one of my What the Flip mentions is going to be about, which might help shed some light onto that. So then he's just like, I'm not getting my hair cut at all.

Rebecca

Oh, yeah, then it just completely stopped.

Mark

Absolutely. Yeah.

Rebecca

So then the hair just got longer and longer. And then he sort of got used to getting mistaken for a girl quite a lot. Right. Less so now, but but what's when he was younger. And he just embraced it. But he he would sort of flick his hair and sort of say Actually, I'm a boy. And then as he ended.

Mark

Sounds like a L'Oreal advert.

Rebecca

Yeah, and as he got a bit older, he'd say, I'm a boy. And also, not trans, because he was really proud that he'd kind of like learn.

Mark

Learn about, you know, adult concepts.

Rebecca

Yeah, yeah, he'd be like, I'm not trans, I'm actually just a boy, you know. And I was, yeah, he kind of loved it. And it brought out that It's that whole thing again a mark of how they don't care and you care so much. And in a way, it's amazing to see them Just walking around, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and just not caring.

Mark

Jay's hair was very long, so he used to have quite short hair, and then and this, I think, sort of coincided with his descent into burnout. His hair got longer and longer, and he absolutely didn't want to cut it. And it was, you know, and again, it was just like, okay, well, that's you know, that's how you want it to be, and you have a choice over that, so fine. So he grew his hair longer. and longer, and it was sort of well below his shoulders. And I th I wonder if a lot of ha the the desire for long hair was the ability to hide. To sort of cover your face a lot more and to it's almost to kind of shelter yourself from the outside world a little bit. When you went into school, you could just sort of be under this mop of head. It's a cape, isn't it?

Rebecca

It's almost like a superhero's cape of power and yeah, that's brilliant.

Mark

Yeah, I mean I actually said I had a conversation with him once about this and whether it made him feel better being a bit more Hidden from the world, and he sort of agreed. I don't know if it was a conscious thing, but he said, Yeah, I think so. So he had long hair for a long time, and we didn't really get it cut. And he was still pretty good at keeping it clean, so that didn't really become an issue. After about four or five years of having long hair, though I was swimming with Jay once. He just sort of swam up to me and he went, I think I want to get my haircut short now. And that was and I was like, I tried to keep calm.

Rebecca

Yes, never show that you're excited or you think it's a good idea.

Mark

And it's not because I just thought he looks better with short hair, but because for me It felt like a sign that he was coming out of his burnout, that he wanted to sort of emerge out into the outside world a little bit more, out of his little burrow of burnout. and poke his little face out. And it definitely felt like that. So when he got it cut, it was just it felt like, you know, the windows had been opened and this fresh air had come in, 'cause he He just lightened up a little bit, and it was a really, yeah, I just remember it being a really significant moment for me. Probably not for him, he probably just, you know. didn't really give a shit.

Rebecca

That's really lovely, though. That's really lovely. We had a similar thing after lockdown. Well, no, it was during lockdown when Jem was in a burnout situation. He had come to the point where it was down his back and it was really bothering him. It was itchy and uncomfortable, but he wasn't saying it.

Mark

I could just tell he was.

Rebecca

So I tried declarative language. I wonder where my scissors are. I feel like I haven't been to hairdressers, I could give myself a haircut, all that crap that you do, where you're basically saying, Do you want a haircut? without saying, Do you want a haircut?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

And At that time, I used to leave little notes in his bedroom on his desk sometimes with suggestions of things that we might do. But it was before he had a phone. So it was essentially like a text saying, hey, we can do this. The hair thing was building up, and I left him a little note. And I was really desperate to help him. It wasn't because I cared what he looked like, I just really wanted to help him. And I said, I'd love to help you with the hair thing. how about we get daddy's clippers? 'Cause we we'd been watching a film where somebody shaved their hair you know, a G. I. Jane type situation. And I said, um, I'd quite like to I didn't want to, I'd quite like to shave my head. This is how desperate I was. Oh, wow. And I said, Do you want to help me clipper my hair off? And then we could do yours too. Now, what was I thinking? I could easily have got to a position where I clippered my own hair off. I was GI Jane, and he just sat there and went no. But the idea was, I kind of created something that we'd do together.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

And I'd sort of said, well, we could do that, might be quite fun. And he I remember he got the note and he came downstairs and he just chucked the note at me and he went, Cut my hair, do it now, don't talk about it, just quickly do it. And

Mark

Oh my God.

Rebecca

I just sort of I was I was actually trembling. All the the the the scissors and stuff I bought off Amazon, get everything out. And he just sat down and dry, I just started sort of going. and created this absolute gi it looked like a sort of pet grooming salon when they've when they've, you know, done a really matted dog or something, Malamute or something. And just cropped his hair really short. And he got up and he went, 'Cause I'd forgotten to cover him up. I was so shocked.

Mark

I had to go over to him. Yeah, you've got no time for that shit. You've got to get going.

Rebecca

Yeah, this is the thing. And he stood up and he went There's hair on me, and he just kind of it was like a tornado or a volcano as he looked at himself and realized he was covered with tiny little bits of hair. And he's ripped all his clothes off and sort of ran towards the shower and went, get it off!

Mark

A haircut and a shower in one day.

Rebecca

Oh, God.

Mark

What a time to be alive.

Rebecca

It was magic. It was a magic.

Mark

But yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

He was obviously he obviously must have felt some form of relief about that.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

But then he must have kept forgetting about it. Because he'd look in a mirror and go, oh, oh no. He told me to cover up the mirrors, and I had to go around. And I was into having mirrors because of, you know, the light and the space.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

Cover up all the bloody mirrors with tea towels and hand towels and pillowcases. It looked like someone had died, you know, where they cover the mirrors in like Victorian houses or something.

Mark

Living like Miss Havisham. Did you have to shave your head in the end, or did you let you get up?

Rebecca

I think even at the tender age of eight or whatever he was, or nine, he could tell that was a sensible Situation.

Mark

But dude, that is a big move. Like, from your perspective, that is a gutsy move.

Rebecca

But I mean, during lockdown, I was. Go hiding in the cupboard onto the stairs at regular intervals and crying and screaming, and then kind of getting so that would have just completed the look, though. Yeah, I mean. By that point I think I think it was a it was a bit of a it was one of those times, a bit of an out of body experience really. And I don't think I was responsible. For what I was saying or doing. Well, that's my story, anyway.

Mark

It was interesting that you were saying that Jem, when the hair was on him, like freaked out, because I think that's definitely a thing with haircuts. I think it's a thing with. With Otto, I think it was a little bit with Jay, and I'm almost certain that it's the thing with India: of having those tiny little hairs and like being able to feel them in the way that, you know, like I probably can't or don't really care about, it becomes really irritating and really kind of sensory. Yeah, but actually, I can't stand it.

Rebecca

When I go to the hairdressers, if my hairdresser gets like tiny little bits of hair on my neck, I actually can't stand it. And I'm desperate to get home to wash it off. And have a shower, yeah. You know, I don't know. whether or not, you know, he gets it from me, as they say. But no, it's um it's definitely a a fear of having um the tiny cut bits of hair.

Mark

Yeah, there's a definite sensory thing as well. Like I might be reading something into this But the snip of scissors near the ear, like close to the ear, I think is probably quite um quite dysregulating. And the clippers As well, the sound of clippers.

Rebecca

I remember once at the hairdressers in one of the little stupid car things. I remember a hairdresser got clippers out and went towards him with them.

Mark

Did you run him over?

Rebecca

He he he very much made his displeasure known at that. Um so yeah, yeah you're right, it's that noise. It's again, it's like a hair dry, it's sudden, it's come and it could hurt you, couldn't it?

Mark

So yeah, so there's a lot there's a lot to be kind of worried. And the the unknown as well, because we've all had haircuts where y it's not turned out as we intended. Oh, yeah. So I guess there's part of that at play as well. I think there's probably an awful awful lot of different things at play. You know, apart from ship lighting and people and, you know, the normal being out in the outside world, I think there is a uniquely Dysregulating experience behind their hairdressers.

Rebecca

100%.

Mark

I mean, I've even said things like, because you can get these mobile hairdressers.

Rebecca

Can't you? You know, there's always ones advertising on Facebook that say, I'm really good with the neurodivergent kids, I'll come to your home. And I've even sort of suggested, oh, you know, we could do that. And he's just looked at me like I've suggested we take the dog out and shoot it, you know. A stranger come into the house to cut hair. What are you talking about?

Mark

Several degrees of unpleasant. Another thing that Otto has, which I'd never thought about and it's only really recently started to creep in, he's been fine getting his hair cut before, only really over the last probably six months. No, probably a bit longer because he's grown his hair longer, and I think now the reason that he's grown his hair longer is because he hasn't want to get his hair cut. And I didn't realize until recently when he was able to articulate it. That he has anxiety around people noticing him having had a haircut.

Rebecca

Oh.

Mark

Right? Because he hates standing out at school. It's like the biggest trigger for him. He doesn't want to go in late in case people look at him. You know, he doesn't want to wear the new trousers that we brought him because people will notice. You know, what's the first thing that happens when you get a haircut? People go, Oh, you got a new haircut. That's nice. Everyone comments on it because socially that seems to be a an acceptable thing to do instead of just letting people get on with their day. So he's been really anxious around doing that. And he's been reluctant to get his hair cut Ages and it's really long to the point that he can eat it. He can eat the fringe, right? So he does a lot of that business. And it's become a bit of a mop. And Tam actually did an amazing job in managing to get him to a hairdresser recently. If we didn't call it a haircut. Right?

Rebecca

Oh, okay.

Mark

Because the word haircut in his head meant it was going to go short and then noticeable, right?

Rebecca

Right.

Mark

Tam worked out that if you use the word trim, we're going to get a trim. then it's less drastic in his mind, and then he was fine with it.

Rebecca

So you're not changing like the style, you're not having a proper cut, you're just

Mark

Having a little trip meeting up, exactly. So, as soon as that happened, then he was like, Okay, well, we'll do it. And then, and then he got a bit anxious about not wanting to talk to the hairdresser. Because chatting to hairdressers hairdressers like to chat.

Rebecca

I mean, for all of us, it's pretty hard going, isn't it? You know?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

I just ask open questions. So if I go in and I'll say Oh, how how are the girls getting on? How's how you know, how's how's it? And then she will go. Oh, okay, nice. Set her off. Five, ten minutes.

Mark

It's like sticking the radio on.

Rebecca

That's yes.

Mark

Nice. Okay. Yeah, I see that. So Otto definitely didn't want any chat in the chair. So So Tam explained that to the hairdresser. Fortunately, the hairdresser that we go to is amazing. You know, our local barber we've been to for years and he's got an autistic brother. and he spends a lot of time with his brother and he's very close to his brother, so he just gets it. So any time I talk to him about the kids and you know, he always asks about them and he always has just has a really good way with him because he gets it. So when Tam sort of said, don't talk to Otto, he doesn't really want you to talk to him, then he was totally fine with it. And then once that happened, Otto was like, Okay, I now want to chat relentlessly. So then he just would start this barrage of conversation because it was on his terms, I guess. So that was a real success with Otto. Jay, as we discussed earlier, seems to be pretty fine with it. India is a whole different ballgame. She hates going to the hairdressers, probably for some of the reasons that we talked about earlier, kind of around sensory stuff. So, if we manage to get her in to the hairdresser, it's the smallest amount off. And the other thing is that she's got a fringe, so she refuses to get that cut. So it gets really long. It like goes over b below her mouth. So we're not talking like Claudia Winkleman like fringe. We're talking Cousin It. kind of fringe. And it becomes a bit of a nightmare. And at one point it was I had to insist because Sh it was affecting her eating. Like she couldn't eat. Neglect. It's neglect. Without without hair getting in there. I noticed it. And she'd be getting like egg and yogurt and fucking all kinds of stuff in it. And it it was just a nightmare. So I sort of insisted that we do something about it. And she'd had a bad experience with a hairdresser previously. I think where the hairdresser said, just a little bit off, and it was more than India wanted. So, I think there's very often a trigger for this kind of thing of like a bad experience. Then, like, that is never going to happen again because they reach that level of dysregulation or overwhelm. They're like, why would I go and go there again?

Rebecca

Absolutely.

Mark

I'd much rather just never have my hair cut. That thing is not just a Blip, it's not just a minor inconvenience, it is an incredibly dysregulating, absolutely, awful, awful event. So, I think India noped out of all hairdressers for quite a long time. until it just became too much. And it w when it was in a mouth, I was like, can I maybe just trim the fringe? And India, for whatever reason, trusted me over the hairdressers. Was like, yeah, okay, I'll let you do it. And I was like, all right. I mean, I have no experience of this kind of thing at all.

Rebecca

None of us do, Mark.

Mark

None of us do. Exactly. So I stored it up, and you know, she wasn't ready for quite a long time. And then one afternoon, it was a summer afternoon, and India was feeling pretty relaxed, and the hair was, you know, starting to annoy her. So I said, shall I just, you know, have a go at your fringe? And she was like, all right. I was like, you know, like you did, like action stations. Fuck. Okay, let's go. Let's go. So I took her outside. I didn't do it inside. Like, I took her outside. I put, yeah. Put her on the on the back step. There was a bit of a breeze, so I thought that might help a little bit. And I prepped it and I made a bit of a joke of it, you know, like gamify it, make it like I'm a real hairdresser, squirt her hair down, brush it Talk about a holiday, it's all good, and then I just went for it. I was, I felt so confident, empowering, it's empowering, oh, just amazing until I made the first cut. I immediately knew I fucked up.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

I think this is the worst parenting experience of all of my parents and experiences because it's so multifaceted, my levels of shame around this.

Rebecca

You just take too much off and then have to compensate.

Mark

So I made the first cut, and I mean, I was supposed to do it just above her eyes, and I don't I fucked it. I don't know why, or I just was like, ah, well, just well, while I'm here. I think in a split second in my head, I was like, While I'm here, I'm not going to get this chance again. I might as well take quite a lot off, right?

Rebecca

Yeah, exactly. Oh, Christ.

Mark

And I hadn't planned that. It was just in the moment, I was like, Great, she's amenable. Let's do this. And I went way, way, way too short for the first cut. And it was also wonky. And I think India.

Rebecca

You didn't look on YouTube for a video first.

Mark

I might have done. I don't. I'll be honest. I'll be honest. I've suppressed this memory so deep. That a lot of the detail escapes me. But there was a moment where I knew and she knew that I'd fucked it. And she didn't she couldn't see herself, but I think she saw the expression on my face. And immediately started panicking. And I started panicking because now she's moving around. And I know that I need to finish it off. So I then just start like holding her still and going, I've felt it's okay, I've got it. And obviously, like you say, right, they smell fear, they smell the panic in my voice. I was fucked within the first snip and anything else was just m feeble mitigation. So I basically managed to get through the whole fringe and it was Really wonky, and she was in an absolute state. Like, I and because I couldn't just leave it half fini half finished. I had to finish it, right? No matter what what it ended up as. And then she ran inside and I just stood on the back step and I said Like, I, you know, this is like the calm before the storm.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

You know, this is like I have taken the pin out of the grenade.

Rebecca

Yeah. It's basically there's a countdown. Yeah.

Mark

You know the shit's coming.

Rebecca

It's just that.

Mark

She ran to the mirror and she looked herself in the mirror and then she. She absolutely lost it. Like instant meltdown, the like of which I've not seen before. And she was just screaming, I hate it, I hate it, I want it back. This is the worst day of my life, and I'm just like, fucking mortified because she trusted me in her life. Until that moment. And like, I can't do anything. Do you know what I mean? With that, like, there's nothing I can do to put it back. And I just want to try and make it better. And If there's something else, I would try and give her a hug and try and make that better. But the last thing she wants to do is to hug the dude that did this to her. So she runs upstairs, she runs to a different room, she is screaming like a like an a wounded animal. In her room for 20 minutes, and I'm outside just panicking. Like, I text Tam and go, I've fucked up. I've really fucked up. I don't like it. I'm really sorry. It's really bad. And Tam is just like, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's not I'm sure it's not too bad. I'll come over and we'll sort it out. So eventually India manages to calm down. And and tries to make it better by sweeping it all to one side. But that makes it so much worse. So much worse. And it's like there's no dressing it up. It's absolutely dreadful. And eventually Tam comes over. And walks in. Tam reacted in a way that was so multi-layered. It's difficult to decipher. So they tried to remain calm when they walked in. Tried to, because you don't want to make a big deal of it, right? You just want to brush it off. Tam walked in and took one look, and the look on their face was indescribable. But I'll try to describe it. Because it was multiple emotions in one facial expression, right? So, firstly, bewilderment, as in, like, I wasn't expecting this. Then, there was disappointment. The look at me was disappointment. Like disappointment, that's where that very quickly turned to anger, and then it was just utter confusion. As to how it could have gone so badly wrong. It's like the final expression that went from bewilderment to disappointment to anger to just like. I just don't I don't understand how what was the chain of events here yeah um and I had nothing I had nothing do you know what I mean I'm just like this is this is it but The worst thing about a haircut like that is that it's not just bad for a moment. Oh, it's bad for months and months and months. Every single day for at least a month. I'm not exaggerating. every single day, I saw India in the morning and I felt mortified. I felt ashamed and guilty and horrified by what I'd done.

Rebecca

I'm getting secondhand mortification to be honest with you.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, I'm just getting this off my chest. Like she bounced back quite quickly after like the first few days, but I also had to walk her to school Right? So all the other parents are seeing India and they know exactly who's responsible for this.

Rebecca

Couldn't you've just said Kids with the scissors, you know. What are you gonna do?

Mark

Maybe, maybe, but they could see that I was significantly more shamefaced than I had been for any of the years previously. And the thing is, like, I think as very much with Jay and having the long hair and having that as his sort of shield from the world when he was in burnout, I think that fringe had that role for India. Like I think that that f it was something to hide behind because she masks. I know she masks in school so I think it was something to hide behind and when you remove that completely She's got nothing. It's not just a haircut. It's not just how she looks. It's how she feels and how she can relate to the world. She feels much more vulnerable, I guess.

Rebecca

And there's also that, I think, the sort of the sensory aspect in terms of a lot of kids stim with their hair, don't they? Yeah. You know, like you know, if it is down there. And they're nibbling it and they're twirling it around. Makes me feel worse. Yeah.

Mark

I've removed a fidget toy from her as well.

Rebecca

For shame.

Mark

I mean, this is a couple of years ago now, but. Oh God. Yeah, the shame still genuinely, that is the most I've ever let India down, I think. And I still regret it to this day.

Rebecca

It's okay. It's a safe space. We're all here with you.

Mark

Just to get it off my chest. So, I mean, what can we learn from this lesson? Like, don't get confident with the scissors.

Rebecca

I think we can learn. that we should basically leave our kids alone, really. I think we should leave them to their own devices. Just let them make all their own ch choices about things like that and stay the fuck out of it because nothing we do will be right. So okay, on a sensible note, I think we at some point will learn to trust them and that they will get there in their own time and they'll be able to manage.

Mark

Like with Jem. When it became too much for him, right? When it was itchy and uncomfortable, and with Jay as well. Like, I never insisted that Jay cut his hair, so he wasn't really an issue. But But when he decided, it was like, it's go time, right? And then he's fine with it. I don't know if India will ever get to that point because of a massive aversion to

Rebecca

Haircuts, but maybe that is the we, I think we fuck things so much for ourselves by it because we've got these brilliant intentions, our intentions are you know, we want to be those parents that we thought we'd be before we had kids, you know, with complex disabilities. You know, we want to be those sort of nurturing, protecting, just brilliant parents. but we bring all that, you know, and we sort of it's coming out of our pores that we just want to help to the point where we're pushing them away basically. And it's I think with almost with PDAs, we have to start trusting them at some point to make these decisions. And it's really, really hard because. with my son, he's got high needs in some ways and you know, quite high care needs in some ways. But yet suddenly he's getting a bus down to the high street by by himself the other day. It's a really complicated kind of tie for parents. You know, we're we're used to having to micromanage possibly quite a lot of things. He still doesn't do shoelaces, but he got a bus To you know, get to a high street. So, it is really, really hard to kind of work out where those sort of boundaries are and stuff. But They will always smell our desperation. That's guaranteed. Yeah. Guaranteed.

Mark

Absolutely. I mean, there is a positive experience that I've had with India recently, because I don't want to end on that. Know that absolute disaster that I had. But the other day, because again, we thought she needed her haircut, and the other day she told me very confidently, money can buy you anything. And I was like, that's not true. We can't buy you love or happiness. But she was having none of it. It's just like, no, you can definitely buy love or happiness. Right. I was like, okay. And then I was like, okay, money can't buy you a haircut. And she thought for a moment. And she was stuck by like in that PDA nightmare of having to admit they were wrong. Or do something that they really didn't want to do. And so she was like, yes, it could. If you buy me a jelly cat toy. I was like, oh fucking hell. She loves jelly cat toys. Jelly cat toys are expensive, but they are. Dude, I've not had a haircut for like a year, so think about what I've saved on that.

Rebecca

Yeah. She could have a collection. She could have a limited edition.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. So I was like, okay, all right. Like while we were there in that moment, I went online and we found the jelly cat toy that she wanted. I was like, right, if you get your haircut, I will buy you this. And then you will be right. Money will be able to buy any of it.

Rebecca

Bribery is the most legitimate way.

Mark

It worked.

Rebecca

It has worked. Absolutely. You're happy. She's happy.

Mark

I mean, I played a blinder there. I played an absolute blinder.

Rebecca

You really did.

Mark

So, you know, she won't go to their hairdressers because there's so many other sets. Sensory things that we can't control. However, we did read somewhere on a local autism support Facebook group that someone's daughter is doing hairdressing. She's neurodivergent and she's looking to get some practice and she'll come to us. I was like, Like, this sounds ideal because they don't really care about how good it is, just you know, just can she see now? Great, yes.

Rebecca

Did she freak out during the process?

Mark

No, that's a win.

Rebecca

Yeah, that's true.

Mark

So, and I'd not thought about getting someone in. I'm sure Tam had, but we'd not really got round to it. So Tam contacted her and said, come over. She came over, and I was, you know, in the house when it happened. It was absolutely fine. She was in the house. I just put the iPad on. She was neurodivergent, so maybe deep down she kind of knew, you know, how to phrase things. Or I don't know. Maybe, maybe they both realized it in some cosmic way. So, India was absolutely fine with it. So, that was like a huge win, a huge success on the back of what was previously the most catastrophic. Fail I've ever done.

Rebecca

That's incredible. Get that girl round more often. Yeah, yeah. Get her around.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, we'll look at the positives now because, you know, I think we can pull some positives out of this. I think, you know, we've pulled some positives in both realizing that we Just need to leave them to it, right? Lower your expectations.

Rebecca

A bit a bit lower.

Mark

Lower than that, right? Think about how low they could be, then drop them a tiny bit more.

Rebecca

That's it. Fucking feral essentially, yeah, and actually, do you know what? So, what there are worse things, and I think, in a way, kids, especially like you know, India and Otto and Jem. Flipping it, they could teach us a little bit about stopping caring so much. About our appearance, yeah. You know. So I know that's really hard and it makes me kind of a t twitch, but it's true. Who who gives a shit really?

Mark

Yeah, maybe that is kind of shining a light a little bit on how we do things for other people and not for ourselves. Because they are not swayed by what people are looking like and how people are reacting to their appearance.

Rebecca

So the court of public opinion holds no sway for them.

Mark

Yeah, that's a no perfect way of putting it. So maybe we can learn a little bit From that.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, it's neurodiversity champions time now. These are people or organizations who are doing wonderful things in the realm of neurodiversity. Do you have any neurodiversity champions for us, Rebecca?

Rebecca

I do have one actually. And I don't mean to take things down a little bit, but it's slightly more serious. So I have a really good friend who has been on your podcast. Okay. Danielle Jata-Hall

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

PDA parenting.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

She's just doing such good work.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

And she's sort of had one of those moments recently, I think, where she's had an influx of like followers and she's done tons of stuff on her website. I'm not paid to say this, she's just a friend. But I did want to say actually, she's I've been kind of noticing she's she's got to the point where she's been trolled recently quite heavily. I know, I know, and it's really making me cross because I think next To the PDA Society, she's the other resource that I would regularly point people towards.

Mark

Yeah, she's wonderful.

Rebecca

She's super neuro-affirming and doesn't try to ask for money for giving you a guide, you know, things like that.

Mark

She's brilliant.

Rebecca

But yeah, she's she's really been trolled by people saying really unkind things. So I thought I would shout her out because she's a gem. And if anyone listening wants to go and follow her at pdponing. com and kind of help squash those absolutes cockwomble trolls that would be really nice because there's some like great resources but also just show a bit of love and sort of yeah yeah yeah three PDAers I mean come on I've only got one

Mark

I got two and a half. I don't know about Otto. Jury's out. Two and a half.

Rebecca

So, yeah, she's my champion this week.

Mark

Yeah, awesome. I wholeheartedly endorse that. I I want to give a shout out to our local hairdresser. So Stefan at Hairport in Brighton.

Rebecca

Hairport.

Mark

Yeah, Hairport.

Rebecca

That's the best name.

Mark

Stefan at Brighton Hairport. And he is amazing. And I've gone to him with the kids for ages, and he's really neuro-affirming because he's got an autistic brother, and he's really patient, and he's open, and also this amazing thing. which is isn't for neurodivergence, but is incredibly useful for neurodivergence, is he has a queue cam Right. So you can log in online and look at whether there's anyone in there before you go.

Rebecca

That's genius.

Mark

It's fucking brilliant because I'm there going like, oh, I need to take, you know, I need to take Otto, but I don't, what I don't want to do. is have to sit with Otto while he needs to wait for three other people to get their haircut.

Rebecca

Yeah, and while he then thinks about the haircut, it gets totally overstimulated.

Mark

No one needs that shit. So, I can watch the queue cam, and as soon as it's available, that's it, we're in. Hop in the car and we're off. Like, zoom around there, and it's yeah, it's wonderful. So that is awesome. And the other benefit of doing that is that once Jay decided he wanted to go on his own to get his hair cut.

Rebecca

Wow.

Mark

So he went on his own.

Rebecca

Oh, that's wonderful.

Mark

Dropped him off. He went in. And then I zoomed home, I got the queue cam up and I watched him in there.

Rebecca

Oh, I love it!

Mark

And I watched him just be really 'cause I love it when he's when he's talking to strangers. Not that Stefan's a stranger, but when he's sort of talking to other people, he's so polite and he's so sort of formal. And I could kind of watch him in the queue cam waiting really patiently and then having his hair cut. It was just a really lovely moment. So, massive shout out to Stefan. At Brighton Hairport because it's uh, yeah, wicked. They've done some great things for us.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins now. These are the moments that in a neurotypical Neurovanilla family might seem not a great deal, but in our families they are epic wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins for?

Rebecca

Well, we went to London last week, Jem and I, for two nights to a La It's going to sound so odd. It's just my son's special interest is he loves arcade gaming and arcade machines.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

It's quite niche. He quite likes retro ones, but he also likes modern ones. there's an exhibition every year in London where all these people who manufacture and distribute arcade machines They get together in Excel, massive, huge. I mean, we're country pumpkins down here. We don't get up to the big city very much. So when we go down to London, it's like, oh my God, you know. But so we went I booked two nights in a ho in a in a Premier Inn. Always stick to a brand that you know because it will look the same as last time you went, and that doesn't freak anybody out. And we went to this exhibition called EAG. And do you know, Mark, not a melt then was had, not a single moment for the whole two days I can honestly tell you didn't actually sleep much, but he didn't get upset about it. We were walking around the Docklands Hotel Car Park at two AM just trying just taking the air, having a stroll. to try try and possibly, you know, kind of get the fuck to sleep. But we were looking at the at the rats gambling. Just the foxes and the bins. But yeah, apart from the nighttime walks and the sort of lack of sleep, which I'm used to and it doesn't bother me, as I'm sure you are too. It was remarkable.

Mark

And I mean, because that's a big old journey as well, though, from Dorset. Like a lot of travel.

Rebecca

Yes, and it rained constantly. The whole way. Rain is his favourite weather, so he was like a dog, like a Labrador with his head out the window and the cart, you know, kind of on the motorway, which I know you probably shouldn't do, but never mind. But yeah, no, we we took practically the whole bedroom with us, duvet, three or four plushies, special pillow actually bought a king size duvet, the fan, we bought everything, but he just managed it all so well and took it all in his stride. And yeah, it was absolutely brilliant. So that's For me, that is a probably a really big epic win. It's not so huge, but I loved it. I loved it.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, I loved those moments. Where you will always look back fondly on those moments. And it's like, yeah, we'll always have that.

Rebecca

We'll always have a Ed Excel, January.

Mark

Lovely stuff. I've got a tiny epic win. The other day when we were on the way to swimming, we usually I usually hand over control of Spotify to Otto.

Rebecca

I thought you were gonna say the car, then, and I was about to freak the fuck out.

Mark

Yeah, and apparently, he's a really good driver, it's an epic win. I had a sleep in the back, he got there in no time. No, I handed control of Spotify to Otto. I really should call it Ottify, shouldn't I? Because he loves music and he likes, you know, playing, playing songs. And Jay was in the passenger seat and he went, Can I DJ, Daddy? And I was like, Oh, f Fuck. I mean, like, firstly, he's not really interested in music. But I didn't want to say no because I also don't, you know, I want anyone to be able to have a go. So I went, Yeah, of course, yeah, of course you can. I was absolutely dreading. What he was going to put on because usually it's some like obscure soundtrack from a video game no one's ever heard of. Not even the main title of it, an obscure cutscene of some video game or something. equally awful. But it was like, you know, it's a short journey. I'll I'll uh I'll I'll let you do it. And he put on Banger after banger and I had no idea where he got them from. He started with the Beatles. He went Nirvana, Elvis Presley. He bust out Gangnam style at one point, which was a surprising hit in our car. Everyone lost their shit for Gangnam style. He even put on some Ed Sheeran because he knows that India loves Ed Sheeran. So he thought about India as well.

Rebecca

Wow.

Mark

Like, I know he was fine with the song, but he did it because India wanted it. Like, yeah, it was like just really surprising. It opened up this whole new world of, like, oh, well, we can now start selecting songs between us and not having to sit through a four-hour instrumental from a death scene in a in a an anime movie.

Rebecca

We get that sort of really odd odd kind of sort of the soundtracks to video games and we we can Get all that, but no, that's really lovely.

Mark

One of the best car journeys I've ever had.

Rebecca

It was really good, and it had a soundtrack exactly.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, what are the flip moments now? These are the moments where our neurodivergent kids will say or do something completely baffling and perplexing. Do you have any what the flip moments? I'm sure you do.

Rebecca

I was thinking actually about what to say, and I do, I have one. And it's not so much baffling as almost like um what have I created? This is my moment. So yeah, Jem's been Working really hard on kind of anxiety and emotions and that kind of stuff. I say working really hard. I hope he has. Either that or he's just growing up. I don't know. But I was having a little bit of a meltdown the other day. And I think I do say that 'cause I it was. I was really starting to lose my shit over something. And I can't actually remember what it was. I think I'd I think I'd got grumpy and banged my head.

Mark

Oh, yeah.

Rebecca

In the loft. Have you ever baggage head in the loft? It's not nice. And I was extremely grumpy with the two men that I live with in this house. And I remember sort of saying to Gemma, you know, you know, my face is getting tense and my fingers are tense, and I think I was starting to cry. And he just looked at me and he said. Mummy, you're getting stressed now. You're getting stressed over nothing. You need to take some calm, deep breaths And I was looking at him and thinking, You little fucker, what you're doing now, what you're doing is you're saying to me what I've said to you in the past. You're throwing it back in my face. And he said, Would you like a hug? And he said it with this, I've got to be honest, quite patronizing tone.

Mark

I always like, I was thinking, oh, that sounds lovely, but no, he was weaponising your affection.

Rebecca

Shall I get you a big drink of cold water? Because that's another thing I say. Have a drink of cold water. I don't know why I say it, because it does fuck all in, you know, to help a situation. And when I was sort of like No, I just I was very much it was very much reversal of parent and child. And he said, um, I'm going to go now out of the room, because in a minute I think I'm going to say something I regret. And just sort of I don't know whether it was a sort of a mansplaining kind of thing parodying you in that situation. But completely seriously. And he walked out of the room and calmly closed the door. He didn't lose his shit. once. And I was being irrational, you know, I really was. I was very angry about things. And yeah, and I sort of sat there in this sort of echo chamber. Feeling like a twat. It's just like what just happened.

Mark

I mean, he handled it exactly as I'd want him to handle it, but I feel like I've been cheapened.

Rebecca

And what I learned was that I don't like the way I handle things. If that's what's coming back at me, then I'm way too patronising. So, yeah.

Mark

Oh, man, you've got to change your strategy now.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Fuck, where do you go from there?

Rebecca

You have a drink, I think, is what you look for.

Mark

I've got a couple of what the flip moments I've actually got three what the flip moments and they're all from India and they are all related to hair. So I just like actually with 'cause when they happen to me, I write them down. Then I kind of scroll through them and work out. And sometimes I'll find one that relates specifically to the topic. And apparently there's a lot of ones from India on this very subject, right? Was when I was brushing India's hair and she felt that I was doing it too hard. And she went, Daddy, you're making my hair bones bleed My hair bones bleed. It's like, and that was sort of going back to what you said earlier: like, I think it is like it has a feel to them that it's It's the almost the hair has sentience. I don't know. Yeah, it was an interesting way of putting it. The other one was when we were trying to get out of the house, and I said, Oh, India, I'll brush your hair when you get dressed. Just as a reminder to myself, really, rather than an instruction. And she just went, Yay, I'm going to stay in my pajamas all day so you don't have to brush it. I was like, fuck, fuck, you got me.

Rebecca

Yeah, of course.

Mark

You know, when you say something, you realize, ah, I just should not have said the error. Rookie mistake, even now. Even a veteran of so many battles. Yeah, schoolboy error. And the final one that I had very recently is when I said to Indy, I was like, I'd like to take you to the hairdresser. And she went, That's never going to happen in the history of nevers. And then ran off.

Rebecca

That's a good one. That's never going to happen in the history of never's.

Mark

I love that one. And then ran out immediately. It's lovely, isn't it?

Rebecca

I'd never heard of that before.

Mark

I genuinely started to question whether that's just a thing, like a saying, but I don't think it is.

Rebecca

No, I've never heard that.

Mark

In a history of nevers. Okay, that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Rebecca, thank you so much for coming back on and talking to me about the the joys and perils of hair care.

Rebecca

It's been a ride. I'm slightly traumatised. I'll have lots to talk about to my therapist whenever I get to see her again. But it's been an absolute pleasure. Yet again, I think we have reassured people that they are not alone in this.

Mark

No. Yours is not the only shit show, guys.

Rebecca

No, God, no.

Mark

There are many shit shows many. So, yeah, I'd also say a massive thank you to Neuroshambles listeners out there. Thank you so much for continuing to download and follow me on the socials and send in lovely emails. Please, if you ever fancy leaving a review, you ever feel like you want to do that, you can do that on any of the podcast platforms that You frequent, or you can leave a review on the website. You can even leave a voicemail on the website if you want to say nice things. It's always nice to hear. Yeah, you can also follow me on the socials on Instagram, or Facebook, or TikTok. I think that's about it for now. We've exhausted this topic of the week, so I'll leave you to your own Neuroshambolic households. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.