Grappling with personal hygiene | Rebecca Huseyin

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 30 of Neuroshambles. Good to have you back, Neuroshamblers, and thank you so much for the kind messages after the previous episode. And also those of you saying that you actually missed it while it was away for a month. feels slightly odd to be considered a regular fixture in your own neurochaotic world, but um it's lovely to hear. Thank you We have got a cracking show lined up with a really fun guest this week. We're going to be talking about a particularly interesting Topic of the week, and we also have the classics: neurodiversity champions, tiny epic wins, and naturally what the flip moments as well. So, what are we waiting for? Let's get going.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So, our guest for this week is one that I got in touch with via a quite a strange quirk of fate, right? I'm on a Facebook group called Lighter Side of PDA, which is brilliant if you've got PDA kids. It's a good one to subscribe to. And my guest mentioned Neuroshambles and said that they'd love to be a guest one day. And I was scrolling through and I saw it. I was like, hang on a second And it weirdly, it happened to be someone that the my previous guest had actually mentioned as well in the Neurodiversity Champions section of the episode that we recorded. So I just appeared on the Facebook thread like Some kind of curious demon that had been summoned simply by invoking my name.

Rebecca

I'd love to be on that podcast. I'd love to be on that podcast. And then suddenly, you were like... hey, it's my podcast.

Mark

So, I invited her to be a guest. We had a chat, and here we are. So, she writes a wonderful blog called A Boy Less Ordinary about her adventures in raising a neurodivergent child. And I am absolutely delighted to have her aboard. It is the excellent Rebecca Hussein. How are you doing, Rebecca?

Rebecca

I'm doing very well, Mark. Thank you. I'm here, which is always the first achievement. I think for me and you. through adversity, we've made it through. We're sitting here.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca

Let's talk about how mental our lives are. Let's just.

Mark

Yeah. So firstly, I guess with any guest that comes onto the show We need to understand a little bit more about your setup. Many people will not have read your blog, which obviously goes into a lot more detail about your setup. But just tell us what neurodivergencies you're working with there, Rebecca.

Rebecca

the difficult ones, PDA. So you know so my son's thirteen. He's got an he's got an autism diagnosis. He doesn't actually have a PDA diagnosis because of reasons.

Mark

Out of interest, because I don't know about d do they diagnose P D A? Is it an actual diagnosis?

Rebecca

It's not a standalone diagnosis. It comes under the That wonderful umbrella, the multicoloured umbrella of all sorts of things.

Mark

And they sort of mention it in the sort of the footnotes or what's got a PDA profile, but they don't actually diagnose

Rebecca

Yeah, the closest you can get is is, for example, if you're really lucky, you might get autism with a P D A profile. If you're less lucky, you might get autism with them severe demand avoidance or something like that. But we we just got autism and then were so exhausted from the fight that we were like, okay, do you know what? What's written on the piece of paper at the moment isn't that important. It's not a hill. It wasn't a hill worth dying on in 2020, funnily enough. And he was in burnout at the time. We just decided that the best thing to do was to treat him that way, parent him that way, and we've kind of never looked back really. So, yeah, so he's thirteen, he has an ear tasse package. So he doesn't go to school and he's not home educated. So we've got like a funded package of education. Light on the education, to be honest with you, Mark. Quite light on the education. Quite heavy on the autonomous, independent picking and choosing side of things. But like all our kids, he's super bright at what he's interested in And he he follows, you know, that sort of self directed learning path. And I I'm um I used to have a proper job, but since lockdown he um he didn't go back to school, so I gave up I was working in marketing at the time, but I mainly worked in education and marketing and stuff like that, and event organizing. Event organizing is a really handy skill, actually.

Mark

Every fucking day is an event in our household.

Rebecca

Yeah, and having to do risk assessments and stuff. I'm all over and so, yeah, I filled my time by kind of massively hyper-focusing on learning about PBA because nobody seemed to listen, talk, believe, understand it. So I made tried to make myself an expert, became a trainer for the PDA Society. And I also, I'm a volunteer for Sendias, special education. We're called Parent Champions, which is the most cringe, a wonderful bunch of people, but we've got the worst, most.

Mark

Feels like you should be wearing capes.

Rebecca

I know, but I hate that. Like, we're superheroes.

Mark

Terrible. Okay.

Rebecca

Yeah. So. Just talk to me a little bit about what SENDIAS do. Oh, so SENDIAS are the. take a deep breath. Special Educational Needs and Disabilities Information Advisory Service. So there should be one for each local authority in the country. Some are better than others. They're all tied to the local council, which has its positives and negatives, but they're so they receive funding from the local council and that they're an independent organization which help parents navigate the SEM system. And they're obviously, as you can fully imagine, completely crushed under the weight of people being desperate for them. So we're like we were part of a pilot scheme to put like twenty parrot champions like me. We did some basic training, but it's all um we're kind of If you've been through the system, that gives you some sort of skills, some sort of advocacy skills and some signposting skills. So we're like a listening ear to parents, so we're going to schools and we kind of try and signpost them the right way, that kind of thing. So yeah, it feels good. It's good stuff. And I write the blog, and that's pretty much what I do.

Mark

Awesome.

Rebecca

And I watch a lot of true crime. I'm obsessed. And I read a lot of horror because anything that's more scary than my everyday life.

Mark

It's like, see, it does get worse.

Rebecca

I'm desensitized now, so I can't watch anything happy. I have to watch like really hardcore stuff. That's me.

Mark

Well, thank you for introducing us to your setup. Right, we've got a lot to get through in the topic of the week, so we'll crack on with that.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So the topic of the week this week is something that many of us encounter with our own neurodifferent kids, and that is the subject of personal hygiene So, the perpetual challenge of how we can ensure that our little ones look after their own bodily functions. So, that is brushing their teeth or trimming fingernails, having a bath. wiping asses, just so many of those personal grooming rituals that we are expected to take care of when we're adults and, you know, when we're sort of gaining independence as kids. And as a parent, it's one thing encouraging neurotypicals to do that kind of thing, obviously, but it's an entirely different thing when you're dealing with kids who could have all manner of things going on neurologically. So there might be sensory issues, there might be difficulty with proprioception and fine motor skills, there might be PDA or difficulty focusing or simply not understanding social expectations around hygiene. It's a fucking minefield out there. So I thought that I'd look at some of these routine hygiene tasks and explore the challenges that we've encountered in our own neuroshambolic families and perhaps maybe some techniques that we might have employed to make things a bit less fractious. I don't know about you, Rebecca. How does your neurodivergent child respond to personal hygiene tasks in general?

Rebecca

Well, Jem has a what's in it for me relationship with hygiene. So it fluctuates. it's very, very difficult, basically. And one thing that you said that really jumped out was the social expectations toward it. Because I think, you know, he he does he does have a very much well, if I'm going to do something You know, why should I? What's in it for me? And actually, it's one of the things that's quite hard to teach, isn't it? That there is an expectation around going out with your hairbrush. Yes, there is an expectation about not having food on your face. But very often, you know, my son does actually force me to kind of think to myself, Why? You know, why?

Mark

Why does it matter if I have a spaghetti beard?

Rebecca

No. Exactly, exactly. So but it's and then you kind of it forces you to get into those conversations of um well, because it's just not nice if you've got

Mark

catch up on yeah I know but then it's not that's not a reason enough is it well we are constantly challenged by this particularly with PDA kids who you know uh obviously want to be autonomous from society largely. So yeah, they've got their own agenda and if wiping their face after a meal time is not on their agenda, then good luck trying to get them to see it from your perspective, I guess.

Rebecca

Absolutely. And I just think it kind of all of these sort of questions about Hygiene and about why I should do this. Obviously, with things like teeth, we can all we know it's really important, you know, that kind of thing. But some of the other little kind of more like I'll wear a clean t-shirt or that one's a bit torn. You know, he's turned around to me and gone, Well, my friends like me. My friends don't like me for my clothes. My friends like me for who I am. And I'm thinking to myself, Yeah, actually, you're right.

Mark

It's true. Yeah, they don't give a hoot, I'm guessing. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I mean, we've we've got a very a sliding scale of engagement with hygiene tasks in our house. So at one end, we've got Jay, who is PDA, but he's For whatever reason, I don't know how it's happened, but he's pretty good with hygiene. He gets it, he wants to take care of himself, he gets the concept of cleanliness, and he doesn't like to get too messy. So He does look after himself and he's quite interested in wearing deodorant and, you know, having baths and stuff like that. So that he's actually in the realm of battles that we have with Jay. There are very few on the Battlefield of hygiene.

Rebecca

I suggest you never, never mention it, never praise me.

Mark

No, obviously.

Rebecca

Never, never, never.

Mark

So that so yeah, I don't really have to chase him up on stuff too much. India is definitely more challenging in that she generally gets the concept of cleanliness and understands that and doesn't actually like to get too messy. But there are particular tasks that she hates to do and will put up a massive fight to avoid them, which generally leads me to chasing around the house. trying to get her to engage in it. And I have to be physically there. You know, I can't really ask her to do anything independently on that front if it's something she doesn't want to do. Otto is the complete opposite end of the spectrum from Jay in that he has no concept of being messy. Or being dirty, and he doesn't care about it at all. So he is an a living grot magnet, if you like. You know, those kind of kids that are sort of walking down the street and just wiping their hands on the walls, just because it's a sensory thing, and then like rubbing his face, he's got like brick dust on his face, and it like you know, he just always seems to have grime on him, so he needs. A lot of assistance with that because again, it's not a priority for him, is it, to wipe spaghetti off his face? It doesn't matter to him.

Rebecca

Well, that's it, isn't it? It's just not a priority. And actually, I think this is when parents have to feel the need to start to get really, really, really creative and to offer lots of choices about things. And sometimes you can just go down a path you never thought you'd go down to when we when we come to talk about bus. What our setup at the moment is extremely unusual when it comes to the market. Okay, I love this kind of stuff.

Mark

I I'm quite looking forward to a couple of the other ones we're going to get on to. So in terms of a general relationship to hygiene, because obviously before we get on to specific hygiene tasks that they're expected to do every day, I wanted to look at just generally Just dirt and germs, and the concept of dirt and germs, and whether that's a thing that gem is

Rebecca

That is a huge thing for Jem. He's very aware of if you know if anyone's got a cold in the house, if daddy's ill. He would wear a face mask, he would keep away he's got a very kind of astute sense of not wanting to get ill. He's got that self-preservation. But you see, that's what's in it for him. So, and he's very good at like washing his hands when he's used the toilet and when he's been in the bathroom. Not after a week.

Mark

Right, yeah. Okay.

Rebecca

That I think we can let some things.

Mark

I think that's just a man thing, but I think that I didn't I didn't want to generalise, but you know.

Rebecca

But um, he he loves cooking, he loves kind of um frying steaks and he loves um Making cakes and all kinds of stuff like that. Whereas he wouldn't, it's very strange because before we start cooking, I'm, you know, so we need to wash our hands, you know, in that kind of patronizing mum way. And he'll be like, oh, my hands are clean. And I'm like, yeah, but you don't know what you've been touching or what you've been doing. Yet, in the middle of cooking, he'll go, I've got something on my hands, and then he'll have to kind of like 17 times rush to the sink. And I'm sort of like, what? What do you do? Why?

Mark

It's probably a sensory thing, right?

Rebecca

So, so it's not a germ thing, it's like, yeah, because Jay's got this as well.

Mark

Jay quite likes doing a bit of cooking with me, but when it gets to anything, like, yeah, you've now got to get your hands in that cake mix or whatever. He's just like, nah, nah.

Rebecca

You know, you'd have to. He watches a lot of chefs on YouTube and like really cool chefs that cook with massively expensive products. Thank you, YouTube. And he made me buy him some of these professional black chests, disposable gloves. And he's kind of walking around the kitchen, sort of looking like this with his palms and everything. But yeah, it's um it's yeah, they're they're kind of they're a bit of an enigma when it comes to what's going on really. But I think one of the things that you s you said earlier that I try and sort of live by, when there's an issue with something, is very rarely one thing. You know, if they don't want to wash their hands or if they don't want to do a certain thing Is usually more to it than just a simple kind of command avoidant. It could be, you know, the kind of soap you're using. It could be It's cold in the bathroom, and there's no one in the bathroom, or the bathroom is a bit spooky, or it could be yeah.

Mark

I think very often that goes on with India actually. Is one of the reasons that she doesn't like cleaning her tea, for example, is because that's upstairs and I'm downstairs and she wants to be around, yeah.

Rebecca

Exactly.

Mark

So I will talk about my strategy later on. I think it's true of all children, younger children, that they don't really have a concept of dirt. I don't know when that's expected to kick in. Like, I don't really get a sense because I've only had neurodemergent kids, so I don't know when the neuroids are born.

Rebecca

Yeah, I exactly, I don't know. And you know. everyone I'm surrounded with in my family, no one seems quite a hundred percent.

Mark

You do I look I do look at uh Otto's peers in particular, and they're definitely cleaner They're definitely more well presented and seem to now be at that age. So he's nine. He's going to be ten sort of in a few months. They're at that age where they're starting to think about taking care of their appearance. And Otto is not like, that's just not a thing on his mind at all. So he's got no concept of germs. doesn't really understand anything about staying clean. So one thing he does is he lets dogs lick him in the mouth. Right, right, which to me is appalling. And I try really hard to stop it happening, but I can't be everywhere at all times, particularly with three kids, right? He fucking loves it. And I have never met a dog who has turned down the opportunity to lick a sitting in the back.

Rebecca

No, no, no, no. They love it. Our dog, honestly, we've had her for four years, and Jem's 13 now. And the first time. She did it. I stood there kind of I mean, I love I love my dog. I love her so much. But if she goes for this area, kind of doing that, you know. But he just absolutely loved it and just kind of almost went one. And I actually did say to him, I said, Do you really want your first? kiss to be with the family dog. Because literally, if you're talking tongues here, no, this is going to be something on your 18th birthday. I'm going to remind you when we're talking about your first kiss here. So

Mark

Also, it's definitely a sensory thing for him. Like 100%. He loves because it does, you know, having a dog lick is kind of, you know, if you have no concept of The fact that that's actually quite gross, right? And that the fact that the dog has been, just, just been licking their ass, right? If you put that to one side, it actually feels quite nice, right? But whereas Otto just really leans into it and like and this is on Christmas Day I was with at my brother's house and he's got a dog and Otto is just in the dog basket with his mouth open. It's like And I keep finding you thinking, look, just stop it. You've got to get germs. He doesn't care. So it's really hard to get around that, really.

Rebecca

Jem really also likes it when our dog Peanut

Mark

When she licks his feet, I wouldn't.

Rebecca

I mean, he wears Crocs 24/7. I mean, to be honest with you, I wouldn't. But She licks his feet, and my God, I think, again, I think it's that kind of sensory thing, but I'm saying, you're dirty. And she's like, I'm going for it.

Mark

And he's like, you're both as bad as each other. Just get on with it.

Rebecca

But we have joked actually when he's got food on his face. I'll say, my God, if you're not going to let me wipe your face, will you let peanut? And I have actually in the past. Directed her to a sort of stain of salt.

Mark

That is a cracking idea. I love it.

Rebecca

Well, you know, you've just got to do what you want.

Mark

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a thing, and again, this is a lot of this is going to be about Otto because he has a very unique relationship with hygiene, quite distant. And one of the things that he does to regulate the probably the best thing that he does to regulate is just to go in the garden and kick a football about in our back garden. And he gets so dirty. Like, it's staggering. It's like he's been on an army assault course or something. He's got mud everywhere. And he's only been out there for like a few minutes.

Rebecca

There are some kids that are absolute magnets for it. I mean, I remember when Jem was in school, they used to go on this little um he was at Steiner School at one point, um, and they used to go on country walks. Every Wednesday afternoon, they'd kind of leave the back of school and go into the woods. And, you know, all the other kids that they all had to have wellies, they had to have everything on. Of course, he was just in T shirt and shredded.

Mark

Oh, yes, obviously.

Rebecca

That's how he rolls. The uniform. And within five minutes, there were sort of leaves stuck to him, mud up here, you know, bits of twigs. And you know, they've all been on the same route for exactly the same length of time. But it's just like it's this embracing kind of everything.

Mark

It makes you wonder how much sort of sort of sort of subliminally we uh avoid Things that will make us dirty. Because obviously, whatever that switch is, Otto has it permanently off. But I'm quite interested in how, you know, sometimes maybe our behavior or the way we move or the way we kind of interact with the world is tempered by this you know, this background thought of like, oh, I'm gonna get dirty, I'm gonna get germs if that happens. So he moves in a different way. Like you watch him kick a football about, it's with everything. It's not just with his feet, it's like his f Flying around, he's throwing himself on the floor. And if he needs to regulate, obviously, if anything, a kid's want to do anything to regulate, you encourage it. Let's say that we're about to go to school. You know, I've got like 10 minutes to go to school. Can I play in the garden? I cannot say yes at that point because I know. He's gonna get filthy. That's like a whole outfit change that I just don't have time for.

Rebecca

So I have to say no. You have to then think about you're gonna be dealing with the expectations or and the looks from other parents or the teachers when you get to school as well. Yeah, exactly. So I have

Mark

To say no sometimes, which feels awful, but every single time he goes in the garden, he comes in and it's a complete outfit change. So the amount of washing we do in our house is insane, and it's pretty much all Otto.

Rebecca

I still take a spare a spare pair of clothes if in I have a big backpack because we always need tons of stuff. But I mean, he's thirteen now. And if we're if we're going out for kind of longer than a couple of hours, I'm like I I do, I still pack spare stuff because if there's a puddle, he's going in it. And actually, half the time I think that's another thing as well. I don't know if Otto is the same. But when Jem is muddy, when he's wet, he doesn't actually care as much. It's me. I'm sitting there thinking, and it's I don't really care about my car if he's going to get it mucky, but I'm sitting there thinking, You're going to have to be in the car on the drive home, sopping wet. And he's like, I'm okay. Puts the blower on in the car, full cold air, 'cause he loves cold wind and just doesn't have I think the sensory differences are so different as well. And that's the thing. It it's like with with the food on the mouth thing. I remember someone saying I think it was a professional a long time ago, and they'd said to me, Oh, does he is he messy when he eats and that kind of thing? And I said, Yeah. And then we were talking about sort of sensory sensitivities and kind of, you know, differences in touch and where sensory receptors are. And somebody sort of did say that actually a sign with an older child or a young person who kind of isn't bothered about food on their face It can be because they're not necessarily feeling it in the same way that I can feel it when I've got something on me as well.

Mark

Yeah, is that appropriate Interoception, it's a weird mix of both. I think it's proprioception.

Rebecca

Yeah, I think interoception is the inside, but sometimes it's all, you know, it's all a bit muddy.

Mark

No, you're right. So, so proprioception. for listeners of Neuro Shamba who don't know what that is, is you kind of understanding your relationship, your body's relationship with space, whereas intraception is how you feel about certain things and how they make you feel.

Rebecca

That sounds good. That'll do. Yeah. I mean, I'll do it.

Mark

But obviously, they're both at play in various different things to do with hygiene. And with Otto, I think proprioception is the big one. Because he doesn't, like you say, he doesn't really feel when he's dirty. Also, probably doesn't care. You know, that's that as well. He may feel it and then not give a shit. which is equally as valid from his perspective.

Rebecca

I think as well, with Jem, he's always I think he's ADHD. We've always kind of thought that we thought that before we thought he was autistic. But I think it's as well to do with moving on from one thing to the next. So, when he is filthy, whereas I'd be sort of standing there thinking I'm filthy, I'm kind of in that moment and not kind of enjoying it. Whereas he is actually thinking about the next thing, I've done that now. I've got Mucky, and now he's kind of hyper-focusing onto something completely different. It's all about what's happening in the moment. And once that moment's gone, it's history, you know.

Mark

I wanted to talk about mealtimes because we've touched on it, but they mealtimes appear to be a nexus of personal hygiene issues for us because Obviously, you've got to make sure they're clean going into the process and coming out of the process.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

So obviously, there's the expectation that they'll wash their hands before dinner. Do you do you really do that? Rebecca. If we're at home, no. You know, to s like I I try and remember. Yeah, no, I don't.

Rebecca

I'm not even going to lie to you. I mean, I think if we've been in the house for most of the day And if you spin to the toilet, absolutely, of course. But it's not a hill I'm going to die on.

Mark

No, no, because there's resistance there, right?

Rebecca

You're adding on another demand before You know, like those micro-demands, aren't you? Kind of, you're adding them in. Yeah, there are enough issues with food in our house without putting in an extra function to getting them fed.

Mark

I will, you know, if Otto's just coming from the garden. obviously fully hose him down. But with washing his hands, I have to do it for him. His fine motor skills are Not very fine. If I ask him to wash his hands, there's no way that he's gonna do it in any like, he will get his hands wet, but he gets sidetracked by making soap bubbles. And and then, you know, he will look at his hands and they will be dirty and he will just say, Yeah, they're fine. It's like You could see that, right? I mean, that is definitely dirt there. So I have to do it for him and I have to teach him how to do it. And he's, you know, I've been doing this for many years now. He's still not really picked up the gauntlet that I've thrown down and done it himself. He needs me to kind of guide him through that process. Jay and Indy will both do it, I think, well, because they're independent, right? The PDA profile for both of those, I think, helps the helps in some ways.

Rebecca

If they're not just talking about demands, there's quite a lot of steps in Washington. I think, you know, You know, for a brain that's really easily distracted, that's hyper-focusing on one other thing. And perhaps if short-term memory can suffer, it can't executive can suffer when other stuff is happening. You know, getting your hands wet, getting the soap on. Doing, you know, there's a lot kind of going to unpack in that one simple task. I mean, you know, like me, you're used to looking at regular everyday things and having to absolutely kind of pull them apart. But I think if The way kind of we roll very much is if you get help to do something, that's absolutely fine. It doesn't matter. And I think that's probably when maybe family members, maybe friends could be looking at you and your child and thinking that they're old enough to be doing that by themselves. And I just I just don't live by that. No, no, no, no, no.

Mark

I think they get it now. And if they don't. No, not at all.

Rebecca

And I think, you know, what our job, I sort of my job, our job, I believe, is to kind of Support and get them ready. And you can't be washing your hands or going to the toilet by yourself or bathing yourself or showing yourself. if you're not kind of happy, safe, secure, feeling feeling good about yourself. So and it's it's just remembering, isn't it, that those we're not going to hit the milestones at exactly the same time as everyone else. That's okay 'cause we're from beginning to hit better ones sooner.

Mark

That's the dream. It's that sound of peanut trying to get out in the background, by the way.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Get out. Just to clarify for any listeners who are wondering what the hell that sound was, it's not Rebecca going crazy and clawing the desk, it's a dog trying to get out.

Rebecca

She's got separation anxiety. She's got real big attachment issues, bless her. But hasn't everyone in my house, you know?

Mark

So once you've actually got. Their hands clean or completely ignored the prospect of getting their hands clean, up to you. Tick as applicable.

Rebecca

No judgment.

Mark

Then you put the food on the table and they have to then engage with that food. Now My kids are not big cutlery users, I'll be honest. They prefer doing things with their hands for multiple reasons. I don't think it's sensory, I think it's just easier.

Rebecca

for them. I'm nodding along here.

Mark

And I I I've stopped trying to insist on that. I mean, I've put I'll put the cutlery there and I will make the observation that There's a fork there. I won't ask them to use it because I know that that will immediately be a no, but I will make the observation that there's a fork there. But obviously, then eating with fingers gets messy. I mean, Otto. Again, gets it everywhere. You know, I've talked about this before in the mealtimes episode of Neuroshambles, where if you take his plate away, there's just this food spatter around this perfectly neat circle where the plate was. But the other thing he does, which is more frustrating, is he wipes his hands on himself.

Rebecca

On himself. He uses himself as a.

Mark

All the time or every single time.

Rebecca

I could have a stack of tissues or napkins and Jem will straight away it's the hands down to the thighs. Yeah.

Mark

From here

Rebecca

Oh, see, I think thighs would possibly be better, but Otu doesn't sometimes go over the belly and down to the thighs, but oh, honestly, yeah, it's and there as you say, there are we've accommodated for this, we put wipes on the table.

Mark

we still use baby wipes. Like my kids are eleven, nine and seven. I don't know. I don't know, Rebecca.

Rebecca

I don't know what the normals do. West I'm 13, I still have them in most rooms because if you've got one chance to wipe a child I'm not going to use a dry thing. What I mean, what your chances of getting anything off with that.

Mark

Well, so you picked it up, you go and get it wet at the teeth, and they're like they're gone.

Rebecca

No, get it wet at the same time.

Mark

If you get any wet, yeah.

Rebecca

You might have three seconds to do it. It needs to be effective. I'm sorry about the environment.

Mark

It's a midstop, isn't it? Exactly.

Rebecca

And I realize that the environment is important, but so is trying to again remove yesterday's ketchup stain from the side of the face.

Mark

So yeah, so wiping the hands on himself is a particularly frustrating thing because again, you know, it's it's It doesn't look great, does it? And also, it just adds to the extra washing that we have to do all the time. There's the crumbs that they just sort of leave everywhere because my children don't sit down for mealtimes. They parade through the house eating. And so there's just crumbs everywhere. And again, you know, they drop something on the floor. It's not like they pick it up. They just leave it there. So something will happen. You've got a dog to take care of that, so you're lucky.

Rebecca

Yeah, but she's a fussy, bloody dog.

Mark

What's the point in having a fussy dog?

Rebecca

If he left bits of sausage down or chicken, no problem, but she's not going to pick up a crisp or a bit of popcorn. No, she's damn fussy, which is really, really annoying. Jem eats on a um he doesn't doesn't eat at the dining table. He hates the dining table. He calls it um a pity, and I don't really I think that might be some sort of phrase he's picked up off YouTube. But I think he thinks that our dining table is for poor people or something like that. I don't know why. I don't understand the thinking behind it, but he never eats the dining table. So he'll often sit on a yoga ball and have have a plate on whatever's in front of him and be eating his dinner on a yoga ball. And I can just kind of imagine the The food being like in a tumble pot. Yeah. But so that the food goes everywhere. And yeah, I'm with you on that one.

Mark

So once the mealtime's done. there is that moment where you recognize they're done and they're about to fuck off somewhere else in the house. And it's the quick check of like, my God, you've got it all over your fingers. It's all over your face, and you're now about to leave fingerprints all up the stairs and on the carpet. So you have to jump in as soon as you can with the wipes With the hose, whatever, whatever it takes, just get them as clear as possible.

Rebecca

When I don't mention it, if there's something we need to be clean for, if I think he's going up to his PC, for example, and he's going to get greasy fingers all over it. I will just, like some sort of ghost woman, I will just smoothly appear silently with a wipe in my hand, and I will offer the wipe, but I won't stop And I will keep moving and I'll try and get the wipe in before he's had chance to consider the fact.

Mark

Do you do the wiping or you just sort of offer it to him? Oh, no, no, no, not anymore. Oh my God.

Rebecca

That when he was about 11, I think I wiped his face once and he absolutely lost his I'm 11, you're treating me like a child, and it was sort of He turned into some sort of absolutely hideous monster. And I think it was because I did the mum.

Mark

Oh, you licked it. Oh, that is appalling.

Rebecca

What are you thinking? Well, I mean, I really ought to be locked up, to be honest with you. So I have to be really careful. But if I find my other half and I would say, don't make eye contact Just look away.

Mark

Or maybe like a Victorian lady, just drop it behind you. Just courteously drop the wipe behind you and then see if he Scurries to pick it up.

Rebecca

I don't think he's ever picked anything up off the floor, ever, in his entire life.

Mark

I mean, with Otto, I cannot just give him a wipe. I have to do it. You know, it's like hands-on. I'm gonna have to just hose him down, and it's quite a rigorous challenge. But yeah, it is. It's good, but he doesn't object to it. Like, he is very much like, Yeah, fine, if you want it done. Do it. So, yeah.

Rebecca

There's a lot you can do when they're watching a screen as well. I mean, I'm going to be honest with you. There's a lot you can do. If they're distracted enough, I mean, not so much now he's a bit older, but when he was younger, my God, the things I could do. If he was in front of a screen, I could kind of get in there, I could be wiping, I could be tidying, I could be brushing hair. I mean, I could. I could have given him a tattoo, and he probably wouldn't have noticed, you know.

Mark

Yeah, it is definitely a useful tactic that I've used. So on to something that I think we've probably got some good stories about, which is brushing teeth, teeth cleaning, because obviously This is slightly different because, with just general wiping of faces and hands and stuff, you know, they can have a bath at some point. Maybe they might have a shower. That will sort itself out over time. It's not. going to affect them in the long term. Teet cleaning is a long term issue if it's not addressed. And that is one of the hardest things to do because Getting our kids to understand the long-term benefits of a short-term pain is nigh an impossible in my house.

Rebecca

When I'm doing pediatricity training or face-to-face training If I mention the word tea, the audience, I get this there's a there's a visible shudder. That goes to race.

Mark

It's like PTSD, isn't it? Like PTSD.

Rebecca

Seriously, seriously. And I always, if there's any questions, if we say at the end. you can guarantee there'll be one parent will say, How do I get my child to clean their teeth? and others will sort of lick come and sort of gather and they'll form a posse of parents who think that you've got the answers for teeth cleaning. And I just Feel like saying, I haven't, but I think I might get lynched. You know, I've got to be careful. It is one of the most sort of I don't know what the word is. Harrowing.

Mark

Harrowing is the word. Harrowing, incendiary, sort of.

Rebecca

But we've been on a journey. We've been on a journey with And I think I can confidently say that this is one of the things I don't feel that I have failed one hundred percent miserably. We do one teeth brushing a day And God, I'm happy with that. And, you know, long may it continue.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

We don't we when I say we, obviously I mean he. He doesn't visit the.

Mark

Are you doing your own teeth, Rebecca?

Rebecca

Well, now you can mention it. He doesn't visit the dentist, and I can't see that changing. He's never had a bad experience. Nothing's ever happened to him.

Mark

Yes. Okay.

Rebecca

But one day when he was about six, seven, he just said, I'm not going to go there again. And that was it.

Mark

So it was a perfect fine. There was no trigger point. It was just like I'm done now. I get it. I get this dentist thing and I don't feel like I need to engage anymore.

Rebecca

Exactly. She suggested that she could clean his teeth to get some plaque off, and he sat bolt upright and said No, thank you, 'cause he was still being polite back then. Yeah, no, thank you. And that was it. So the journey that we've been on is, I mean, I've done everything. I mean, during lockdown was the worst. We went for about three months probably without which was Agonizing for me and probably for him in a different way. But I had to just remove the demand. I had to stop it. It was becoming so, I think incendiary is the word. Every night when I mentioned it. It was ridiculous, and I thought this kind of thing.

Mark

And obviously, you know about PDA, so it's not like you're saying clean your teeth. You're doing all the declarative language of like Oh, your teeth.

Rebecca

This was kind of at the time when I was, I just sort of had my PDA light bulb moment. So I was still trying to be less of a control freak about things, and it was very, very hard. But I remember once being so desperate, he w Jem was really into comics at this time, and he used to make his own comics and draw them. I sat down, forty odd year old woman, drew a comic and coloured it in. of some stick man whose teeth went bad and there was like a toothbrush superhero in it. I'm so ashamed even. Um there was a tube of toothpaste in it. I tried to make it as rude as possible just to appeal to that kind of there was a funnily enough, Mark, there was a moral in there. There was a hidden story. I know. And he looked at it and he tore it up.

Mark

The shit we do, we have to just the shit we try just to get it to work. I mean, that is incredible. The amount of work, time and effort you went into doing that and the response it received was just

Rebecca

That was the moment when I thought I think I went into the cupboard under the stairs, because we used to have a cupboard under the stairs for crying. That was my cupboard for crying And I used especially during lockdown, I would go in there and scream, or I would smoke furiously, or whatever I wanted to do. It was my little kind of little Harry Potter, the stairs, covered up hell. And I went on there and I thought, I am not going to ask him to do his teeth anymore, and I'm just going to wait. 'Cause we'd we'd had these months and months of not doing it. And I think it was I think it was about two weeks when he sort of he must have realized, oh, she's not mentioned anything to do with tea And he said, Mummy, I think you ought to clean my teeth tonight. And I remember thinking, Play it cool. Play it cool. And I went Oh. Oh, really? Yeah, I th I think you really ought to. You know, you know, if we don't, and he started then educating me.

Mark

It has to be their idea, right?

Rebecca

Yes.

Mark

Well, that's good. That must have been amazing, though.

Rebecca

That was an amazing feeling. This changed things. I'm just showing a tube of toothpaste to the camera.

Mark

It's called Auronus.

Rebecca

And I discovered it in lockdown, and it's unflavored, unfoaming.

Mark

Because that is I didn't know about the the foaming, where the foaming's an issue with mine, but flavor Definitely is so so India hates anything too minty. And finding non-minty toothpaste used to be a bit of a nightmare

Rebecca

But he didn't like that it's very often if it's either minty or it's those very sweet cigars.

Mark

They're your two choices, aren't they, basically?

Rebecca

They're your choices, yeah. So um we discovered this, which is brilliant. And actually, because it's not too foamy, there's there's y you don't have to be kind of constantly spitting. So it seems to be easy to do.

Mark

Oh, yeah, 'cause that is the foaminess is the is just the amount of foam I have to clean up. 'Cause my kids, um, Jay is all right. Jay's pretty good at doing it. Again, he sees the point in it and he looks after his own hygiene. So that's that's pretty good. India has big issues with the mint factor. When they're little, you we got the little teeth, right? Which is the three to five toothpaste that you get, and it's kind of very lightly minted. And then we went up to big teeth. Fuck no. That was no, too minty now. So we're still on little teeth. I don't think it makes a big difference.

Rebecca

To be honest, I think we were using little teeth until he was until Rock and well, yeah, and I'm sure until he was about nine or so.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, so India insists on little teeth, and that's You know, fine. Yeah, I think Tam actually asked the dentist at one point. The dentist was like, it's fine. It's not a problem. So India uses that. Now, what I do get with my kids, all of them. is that they will never ever brush their teeth near the sink. Let's start out there. That's just the starting point. It's the loading point. And then they're just fucking oh, just walking throughout the house, trailing toothpaste everywhere. There is toothpaste in the most random places, and it stains. That stuff stains, right? So I've got it like on s sofas and like on my bed and it's all over the place.

Rebecca

It should be used in warfare, really. It it's incredible stuff. Even this kind of stuff I use. The way we do teeth, we again, we, because this is we, what we're in now is just before he goes to bed. I'll do my like Victorian ghost. I'll I'll swoop float into the room with a toothpick toothbrush with the toothpaste on it.

Mark

Nice.

Rebecca

Loaded. He will not acknowledge this. I will not acknowledge him.

Mark

I will move in like a poltergeist.

Rebecca

Yeah, so I will move in slowly with the toothbrush, and I will gently, and I will again, I won't make eye contact. He will open his mouth. I will brush. When I feel like he might need to sort of swallow, I'll take it out. He'll have a swallow.

Mark

Oh, so he swallows it, he doesn't spit it.

Rebecca

Yeah, he doesn't. Well, let's not talk about the health implications of that. I I you know, I'm not I choo I choose not to think about that.

Mark

I think the splitting of the toothpaste is actually Part of the engagement with my kids, weirdly. I think they like that, like I get to spit. So, Otto, but Otto is just fucking everywhere with it. So, I mean. Yeah, so sorry, carry on through your process because this is fascinating.

Rebecca

So that's how we do it.

Mark

And then once I've done it, but he's like on a screen or reading or watching or reading it.

Rebecca

He's on a screen. And he when when he's decided he's had enough, he'll move his head back and he'll sort of scowl. And the scowling means your time is up.

Mark

It sounds like Henry VIII and the the servant he had to wipe his ass.

Rebecca

Yeah, and I and I quickly with whatever I've got on me or my cuff, I swipe the face and I float back away. We don't talk about teeth brushing If we talk about it, it exists and it's the thing.

Mark

Well done, because you've got to find your own way, right? Because the morning routine, so my kids, I have to be on them. And I have to tackle it in the best way I can. So what we used to do is we'd have breakfast. I would then clean up the massive detritus from breakfast, as we've discussed, right? There's always mess from breakfast. So I'm like, right, go upstairs, clean your teeth, get ready. Right. So they will go upstairs. They won't clean their teeth. They'll just fuck about. So, and India has issues going up there without me anyway. And so. I would then tidy up and then it would be too late to clean the tea. So then it'd be really frantic and then like be late for school and it became a nightmare. So what I did was I moved their toothbrushes downstairs into the kitchen. It's like, I'm here now. I can watch you doing it while I'm tidying up. So which is like it's Probably quite unusual for kids to be cleaning their teeth in the kitchen, and there's like, you know, there's trails of toothpaste everywhere downstairs, but At least I can keep my eye on them.

Rebecca

When Jem was going to school, I again, we had exactly the same kind of he just wasn't independent enough or wasn't able to kind of follow through. To do it, so I used to have it by the front door, and it used to be like school bag on, and I'd hand him the toothbrush as he was walking to the door. Then he brushes teeth on the way to the car, and you know, we've done it in the car, we've done it in the school, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, if it gets done, it gets done, and To hell with the people who look at you with the business.

Mark

One of the things that I've done recently, and actually it was because I was preparing for this and I was writing it, I was like, we haven't tried electric toothbrushes. So for Christmas, I got them each an electric toothbrush. And they're really on board with that because it's really sensory for Otto in particular, who is, you know, who's very, very sensory seeking. he loves it because it makes his lips tingle and um you know he needs constant remindering about the like to remember to do both sides and he's constantly walking around and jpping it everywhere and getting distracted, but the actual brushing itself isn't too much of a problem. I do have to do it for him largely, and he wants me to But that's okay. I think the issue with him is the physical process of doing it is hard, so he doesn't he avoids it for that reason. And that works all right. Now I wanted to tell the story of another of my guests. Because I talked to a a guest Belle has been on on NeuroShambles a number of times. And when I was first thinking about doing Neuroshambles and wondering if it was gonna work, if there were enough people out there with funny shit going on to make it a podcast. I talked to Belle and she told me the story of getting her PDA daughter to brush her teeth And she went, What I do is I've got loads of different toothbrushes. You know, the toothbrushes with the suckers on the end, right? I'll get loads of those. and I load them up with toothpaste and I just stick them to every wall in the house. And then at some point she's going to see it and go, Oh, I'll just clean my teeth I think that's amazing. It's incredible. I was just like, it's just fucking insane what we have to do as parents and neurodiversity kids. And it was one of those things I just couldn't stop laughing about it and thinking about it for days. I was like, there's definitely mileage in telling These kind of stories to different people.

Rebecca

You'd need to kind of give a disclaimer for when, if a stranger came into your house while you had like a plethora of toothpaste.

Mark

It's like getting toothpaste on their coat of like, oh, yeah, yeah, you might want to watch for the toothpaste booby traps.

Rebecca

Some kind of weird Indiana Jones house. Oh, it's brilliant. I love it.

Mark

So one of the one of the other challenges that we get is bath times. Because obviously It's never easy. Nothing's ever easy with our lot, is it? Luckily, my kids enjoy baths because they love water. It has to be baths, not showers.

Rebecca

They like to luxuriously. Never had showers here. It just shower for some reason it's just abhorrent to him about having a shower. You can have a shower if you go to the swimming pool. Right.

Mark

That's fine.

Rebecca

Well, if you if you're at home, it's bath.

Mark

So do you have any particular bath time foibles that you have to observe?

Rebecca

Well, yeah. At the moment So I ran a bath earlier on today, just in the vain hope that something might happen. But as he he said You know I don't have Barton here anymore because the last few times he's washed, I've ran the paddling pool in the garden, and I know it's winter But we actually had a I had a hot tap put outside so so that we could kind of run it warm. That's cheese, actually. What a great idea Thank you. My husband was like, 140 quid? Why do you need to stop a map? And I was like, don't you see? Don't you see what we should do?

Mark

Most normals wouldn't have to think about this, but

Rebecca

they wouldn't. And you know, their brains don't get exercised in our way. Because over the summer He had he spent so much time in the paddling pool that um and I was so cold, so freaking cold all the time. And I am, it's just I'm a cold person, and I thought this has gotta this has there's gotta be a way around this. So put the put the hot tap. Outdoors, and so it was over the summer. And I thought, do you know what? He could really do with a wash rather than just a play. Got a couple of cheap bottles of shower gel, chucked them in, and thought if he just completely destroys them, pours them all out fine. It was the cleanest he'd ever been. He voluntarily rubbed it in his hair. You know, the again, it was the sensory thing, in his face, in water. We put the garden sprinkler on over the paddling pool as well.

SECTION INTRO

That sounds amazing. So it was amazing.

Rebecca

You know, he had a face mask. He was doing the diving. It was excellent. It was great fun. He wanted to continue that into the autumn and into the winter.

Mark

Every single bath time.

Rebecca

Yes. So you as you can imagine, we're not doing this every week Well at the moment it's kind of every fortnight, I think. But probably if I'm telling the truth, it might be every three weeks. But but yeah, so he said to me today, If you want me to wash, you know what to do. like some sort of mafia boss who it really is in completely in control. So I've got to scrub out the paddling pool We'll fill it up. I'll get my I've got a wetsuit, which I'm not a water sports person. I don't know if you can tell, but I got it from a charity shop. It's excellent. It's fine. It was about 50p. I put my wetsuit on. We'll get in that pool, and this is what we'll have to do. I will have to chase him round and pretend to be a shark for approximately 20 minutes. Once that ritual is done, I will then have to fake drown him. He loves being fake again, he just loves being crushed, he loves the water. Don't tell me your kids that you've never tried to fake drown your kids, please. No, I have.

Mark

I took them swimming the other day and they hold onto the bar and I have to yank them off and like take them into the cave. Yeah, I do.

Rebecca

The sorts of things where other people saw it or just as heard it.

Mark

Essentially assaulting my children in public.

Rebecca

Exactly. So I do a couple of fake drowns casually. And then I will. We will then negotiate. It will either be hair or it will be under arms and bits. But both will not happen in one paddling pool.

Mark

Right, okay.

Rebecca

I have to choose. It's my choice. So, I've got to kind of keep score in my head of what's the worst. Is it the hair? Is it the armpits? But yet. That's what I'm doing tomorrow. And I think that the the lowest temperature I've done it in so far is about six degrees.

Mark

Wow.

Rebecca

And it was it's okay if you're kind of under the water But I genuinely think our neighbors must think. I don't know what they think.

Mark

You don't need to know. You don't need to know.

Rebecca

I don't need to know. Don't get onto the street WhatsApp group.

Mark

You don't need to know. They're at it She's drowning him again.

Rebecca

Drowning him in the garden again. But you know what? It really does. It works and it is fun. It's massively exhausting, and I've got to kind of I've got to have a couple of coffees before I go in, not just to warm up, but just have the energy to deal with him. He's a big lad as well. He's as tall as me. But it's just, we get it done. And actually, you know, it's one of those things. It's a little bit of a title.

Mark

But don't underestimate, like, the because in gamifying things, you know, everyday tasks, which definitely a lot of our kids need. It is such a wonderful connection with them. It's like it is ridiculous. And once you've sort of let go of that and just lean into it, like I used to do a thing for my kids after bath time called Special Dry. Which then became this thing. So I think they only really started having baths because they're like, I'll have a bath, but you're going to do special dry. It's like, okay.

Rebecca

So special dry what was special. Special dry is, you know, you get those towels with the hoods on. Yeah.

Mark

They're quite long towels with the hoods on, and you wrap them round. Well, I used to do this thing where I'd put the hood on them. And then I would get both sides of the towel and I would rigorously just like shuffle them around inside it, right? And I'd roll them from side to side. And I would pick them up and I'd twirl them around and throw them on the bed. And they were just like completely like a sensory overload for them. And they're absolutely loving it. And then the last thing I'd do is I'd grab the towel from beneath their legs and I'd. Flip them so they do a somersault and try and land the somersault, right?

Rebecca

That is incredible.

Mark

And I do this every single bath time, three of them, until they just got really quite big, too big to do it with. So Otto still asks for special driver and I was like dude you you're too big now but it was again it's that connection and that fun and the game playing that You can get them to do what you need them to do, and that's what's in it for them, if you see what I mean. It's like, what's the trade-off? Ah, there's this.

Rebecca

Now, can you just wash your mids? Even though I might kind of moan or I might talk about it on a podcast, actually the fact that my son wants me to have a paddling pool with him, and he's thirteen years old You know, and we have so much fun and we watch we will bring the little phone to stand down. We might watch some YouTube videos when we're in there as well. He'll pick it, he'll say, What content created do you want to watch? You know, and he knows what people I like, and we'll watch your video.

Mark

And it's really special, it's really nice. And there will be a time there will be a time where they'll You know, he won't want to, you know, he's like, Oh, do you want to do the sharks?

Rebecca

Like, no, yeah, exactly.

Mark

Come on, I'm 45. Oh, go on. Old time's sake. I'll do that one day to my kids. I'm like, Do you fancy Special Dry? Otto will always say yes. It'll never be too old for Special Dry. Okay, another of the personal hygiene nightmares that we have, which you alluded to a little bit earlier, is cutting fingernails.

Rebecca

The cutting of never had to do it.

Mark

Oh my god. Why does he just bite them?

Rebecca

Yeah. Ever since he was really, very young. I'm really sorry about this.

Mark

No, no.

Rebecca

I apologize. I don't have to ninja this. It just, in fact, is a bit of a problem because obviously he bites his fingernails all right in the middle.

Mark

I think when we were growing up. It was, you don't bite your fingernails, don't bite your fingernails. That's disgusting for some, for whatever reason. Um, whatever reason. But my kids said they don't bite their fingernails, which is frustrating. Because I then need to snip them, right? And particularly with Otto, because as we know, his relationship with Dirt is very close. He has very long fingernails, so he gets really dirty fingernails. So I have to keep on top of that. To be fair, his sort of proprioception issues is means that he doesn't they don't hurt him. He doesn't get you know, he doesn't get weird about it. He just lets me do it. Trying to do it with India is a flipping nightmare. She is, she does not want that happening at all. She hates it and she gets really anxious and really nervous as if, like, I've I've got a history of cutting off her fingers by accident or something.

Rebecca

I haven't.

Mark

I've been very gentle and very considerate over all the time.

Rebecca

Have you though?

Mark

Yeah, I really have with India. With Jay, maybe not so. We're like early on, but I think he was too young to remember that. And but like you were sort of suggesting earlier, screen time is absolutely crucial for this sort of thing, right? Put something on and they'll hyper focus on that, and then you can sort of do it and just get it done quick in and out. But yeah, it's a bit it it's a bit frustrating, I think. Jay wants to do it himself, but he also has that problem of cutting it too short. Ooh, that's making me wince.

Rebecca

Yeah, I know.

Mark

And then he's it hurts for ages, but he won't admit that it hurts because he did it. You know, so it's like, Do you want to put a plast on that? No, it's fine. It's like, I mean, it's breeding quite a lot. No. So, yeah, you sort of let him get away with it.

Rebecca

That I dodged a bullet with that one, so it was, yeah. Thank you, universe.

Mark

I actually just started encouraging my kids to bite their own thing and can you just do it? yourself. Actually, I think if I gave India some nail scissors, she'd probably uh she'd probably do it herself now.

Rebecca

Wow.

Mark

I don't know. She'll have a go. I don't know. What can go wrong? You know, think about it that way. So another thing to do with personal hygiene that I'm going to touch on very lightly because, you know, it's a sensitive one for a lot of our neurodivergent little ones. That is bum wiping. That that's That took longer than I was expecting. Sort of the potty training thing was, you know, its own sep separate set of Issues, but um,

Rebecca

have you done a podcast on that?

Mark

Because I haven't, I haven't yet. No, I've not been ready to uh to do that, but that was a that was a challenge, sort of doing the potty training, and uh, you know, some took to it quicker than others. And some still sort of stray into old habits, let's say.

Rebecca

Then we all, you know, absolutely.

Mark

But I think Okay, again, Otto has issues with this, or he used to have issues with this, because I think, again, he's sort of his fine motor skills. If you think about it, it's not an easy thing to do. You're going back there. You're going back there blind. You can't see what you're doing, right? So if you've got like, you know, proprioception issues or you've got sort of issues with coordination, then it's hard. And how do you know when it's done? Right, so Otto has the same this this thing now. He's gone the other way like the amount of toilet paper that he uses up at the moment. He's Blocks the toilet so often in our household.

Rebecca

Andrex puppy, Andrex puppy.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. And there was a moment when I was, which I think I've mentioned in the podcast once before, but I was on a Zoom call with work. And the toilet is next to my office here, and he bursts through the door naked He didn't know I was on a Zoom call, just to be clear, right? He burst in naked, and he turned round, then he bent over and he held his bum cheeks apart. And he went, Is it clean, Daddy? And like, I can see why he did it. I can see why he did it, but I could not get to the camera off button. quickly enough.

Rebecca

I mean, I I would have frozen, absolutely frozen. Oh my how did you not end up being a meme somewhere?

Mark

It's true. I probably am somewhere. Um yeah, it was it was I th I don't think that one was being recorded. I'm pretty sure it was an internal An internal call, and my you know, my work knows a large amount of what I'm dealing with, so it was it was quite amusing for them. But it was it was mortifying, obviously, from my perspective. Um, fortunately. Fortunately, to his credit, it was spotless.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, so let's look at the positives now. Now, normally, I do like to look at some of the positives of anything that we talk about in Euro Shambles, but. There aren't many. There aren't many with this one. Like, I can't, yeah, I can't think of any really. It's a challenge. And I think, whereas with some aspects of their life, I can. I can remove that expectation from them. Because what you know, what we've not really kind of focused that much on is the social expectation of cleanliness and body odor and that side of things. You know, and how you explain that to them, that people might want, you know, might not want to be your friend if you smell, or they might be mean to you.

Rebecca

And that's a really hard conversation to have because I think we spend their whole lives kind of trying to let them see the best in society. And we also really want them to be the kind of friend that would never turn around and say, I don't want to be your friend because you stink. You know, we'd never want them to look like that. We'd want them to look below the surface and all of that. But actually, when it comes to personal hygiene, we're kind of flipping that on its head and saying, but actually, if you look Gross and dirty and stinky. No one's going to want to be your friend. And that's it's a really, really tough lesson to learn. And I'm kind of right in the midst of that. But I am constantly reminded by my son that beauty is skin deep and that there is, you know, that his friends who are his friends and who love him love him for who he is. And he's said that. I mean, that's pretty much verbatim.

Mark

Which is wonderful

Rebecca

What do you say back to that though? Yeah, but Deodorant wouldn't go amiss. Yeah, I don't know. It's really, it's really hard, isn't it?

Mark

And I've not my kids are not really old enough for me to start to challenge that. As I say, Jay is quite into being clean. So he's got deodorant. He uses that. But I know I've got a bottle on my hands with Otto.

Rebecca

Yeah, it this puberty is a very unforgiving time, I think, as well. You know, what I'm always sort of saying when I'm writing my blogs and stuff, you know, our progress isn't linear as parents with our kids. You know, the paths take all kinds of strange twists and turns. But I think once you hit puberty. and personal hygiene, you can really start to do some spirals and kind of go back.

Mark

That's the one that feels like a whole other episode, doesn't it? That one.

Rebecca

Exactly. But, you know, like so many things, we have to say, don't we? Does it really matter? I think that's we've got to we've got to sort of preface things with does it really matter.

Mark

I mean I think at some point it that it must sort of kick in. Because you don't know that many adults that have major problems with personal hygiene. You know, even neurodivergent ones. So I think it kicks in probably later than neurotypical kids in some instances. Probably earlier in others. So, yeah, I'll just.

Rebecca

Let's go with that and let all your listeners have lots of hope, shall we?

Mark

Yeah, well, I've got no other evidence to the contrary, so I'm just gonna assume that it's all gonna be fine.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

So, neurodiversity champions now, these are any organizations or people who are doing some great things in the world of championing neurodiversity. Do you have anyone that you want to mention, Rebecca?

Rebecca

I really like a blog called The Prism Cat, Reflections on Neurodiversity. And it's fantastic. It's Kira Chambers, who is an autistic AuDHD PDA parent. So she's a mother and her insights and her reflections upon her life and kind of Being neurodivergent herself and her kids, she's fabulous. So she's she home eds one kid, she's got one kid in school.

Mark

So she's always got some really, really kind of interesting authentic insights.

Rebecca

I love absolutely love her.

Mark

Okay, I'll definitely check her out. I mean, talking of blogs, obviously your blog is wonderful. And how long has it been going now?

Rebecca

I I started January twenty twenty one when I sort of decided I think I needed to do something for myself after After the hell that was locked down, and I needed to kind of do public therapy.

Mark

Essentially, welcome to Neuroshambles. Yes, essentially, what this is.

Rebecca

Thank you for naming your podcast after my life as well. I appreciate that. But yeah, and I'm like my first blogged about hair. I I remember it well because it I writing it was the best therapy I could have ever had. So no, it was really good. But I've been focusing a lot recently on parent care and mental health. And that's kind of my that's my fixation at the moment, is kind of writing about how we're all quietly left to go mouldy in a corner somewhere and and kind of left on the outskirts of society, sort of growing little rubber. Where we are. So I'm not comparing us to vegetables. I just like to point out. I don't really know where that analogy came from. But that's kind of what I'm writing at the moment. Yeah, that's really interesting. But stuff like this, stuff that you do, and stuff that we write, all those kind of stuff. I think, you know, it's not just about creating a sense of community, it's about actually letting people know that they're not going bonkers and they're not on their own. You know, it's a really weird life.

Mark

Yeah, no, I totally. I've got a neurodiversity champion, which is quite of a slightly strange one. Tesco Mobile. Tesco Mobile launched a sensory support box for it for in store use across branches nationwide, apparently. So basically, if you're shopping for a new phone and you're discussing phone contracts and you have neurodivergent kids with you, then you just give them the sentry box. Now, I'll be honest If you're going to discuss a mobile phone contract with your neurodivergent kids, you need fucking help. And it's not going to fit in a box, the amount of help you need. But, you know, that said. At least Tesco Mobile, I think, something is a sort of nod to neurodiversity and trying to help people, you know, handle sensory issues. All you need to do is go into your Tesco Mobile ask for what you need and and there's ear defenders and sunglasses and a lanyard and fidget toys and flash cards and stuff in there. So, um, brilliant, but you know, every little helps, all right. Oh, I only just thought of that. I didn't write that, I didn't write that for you.

Rebecca

Did you not, really? I love it.

Mark

So well done, Tesco Mobile.

Rebecca

Actually, yeah, I should champion my local Free play retro video game arcade. Okay. Because me and Jem go there quite a lot. And they're they're a small independent business. Got some amazing machines and it's cheap as chips to go. And we booked to go on Friday evening. They Found my phone number and texted and called me to say that they'd had two large party bookings in, and they knew that Jem Wears ear defenders and they've seen him, and he always has a chat with the staff. They're lush, they're so nice. And they actually phoned to tell us that it was going to be super busy and to offer us a chance to go a different time.

Mark

Oh, amazing!

Rebecca

Yeah, or to change our book, literally to go whenever we wanted. And they've been incredible. But I just thought, my God, that sounds so thoughtful, isn't it?

Mark

And makes a massive difference because they're right.

Rebecca

That would have been an absolute shit show, wouldn't it? Exactly, but knowing in advance that it was going to be, we could just go a little bit later just to kind of arrive at the tail end of all that. So massive shout out to Insanity Arcade in Poole Dorset. You are incredible. Lovely humans.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Tiny epic wins now. These are the moments where parents of neurotypical kids, you know, it's not a big deal, but for us Parents of the neurodifference kind, uh they are major wins. So do you have any tiny epic wins for us, Rebecca?

Rebecca

I do. I have one this week actually, which is after two and a half years wearing the same pair of blue crocs They don't fit any more. They're worn down. They are a death trap. He's been sliding around on wet surfaces. It it it sh I I shudder every time he wears them. He doesn't wear anything else. He has agreed that for my birthday present, He will allow me to take him to Skechers.

Mark

Skechers are amazing.

Rebecca

Buy I know. And buy him a pair. Of trainers. So, the agreement is his birthday present to me on my birthday. That's how I get to spend my Saturday morning of my birthday. And I have to let him choose any trainers in the shop. No matter how expensive. Wow. And so but actually, do you know what?

Mark

I'll take it. That is a major win.

Rebecca

Like that's huge.

Mark

I mean, sketches, as you probably know, which is why you're going there. Sketches are weirdly Amazing for neurodivergent kids, like all of my kids.

Rebecca

I wear them myself, but yeah, I'm just I'm blown away because the shoe situation is worrying.

Mark

It's a shit shoe.

Rebecca

It's a shit shoe. Yeah, it really is.

Mark

Yeah, so this is very similar to experiences that I have. Like India wore crocs until they literally disintegrated and it was a disgrace. And then I had the whole Rigmarole trying to get her into new Crocs.

Rebecca

Jay, as well. They don't feel the same.

Mark

No, no, no, of course they don't, because they're new and they're not falling off your feet. You know, there's less wind going through your toes. I love the fact that he's framed it as it's your birthday present as well.

Rebecca

You get to spend money on.

Mark

But yeah, take it. That's awesome. I got a tiny epic win this week in that. Jay likes my gravy. I he's always hated gravy, and when I make a roast, he's always Disgusting, but for whatever reason, the other day he tried him and it was like, oh, it's actually all right. I was like, what's steady on Gordon Ramsey?

Rebecca

High craze indeed.

Mark

It's like getting a handshake from Paul Hollywood, isn't it?

SECTION INTRO

What the flip!

Mark

Okay, so what are the flip moments now? These are the moments that, as parents of neurodivergent children, our kids will make us just do something or say something that completely baffles us and makes us go. I'm sure, given everything you've told me about about Jem, that there are some doozies in there. What have you got for us?

Rebecca

I made a note this week, because I knew I was coming on your podcast. I did make a note of a couple of interesting things he said, because he he never As a child, he never really talked very much about his feelings or kind of what was going on. But recently, there's been a bit of an outpouring of explaining how he's feeling. And it's really interesting to find out. So this week we had He was sitting in the back of the car, and suddenly out of nowhere said, Mummy, are you okay with doing everything for me, like you do?

Mark

Whoa.

Rebecca

And I was sort of like, you know, absolutely kind of struck dumb. And I sort of said, um Um well, yeah, because I think well, sometimes I am, and I was sort of falling over my words, and I was trying to sort of say to him, you know, because I want you to feel safe and secure in and and scaffolded and helped for the future and confident But also, I get really, really tired and I get really, really pissed off at bringing you snacks. And he just sort of looked at me and he went, Yeah, I just wanted to see how we were with that. And it was never mentioned again. And I saw that's really interesting. And another one was today I was trying we were trying to work out what to do because where we went wasn't quite right. went to a country park, but it wasn't it was all wrong. And you know how country parks are, very often they're all wrong. And I was trying to kind of work out what to do, and he he just sort of cut me dead and sort of said, The more you try to motivate me the worse I feel. And again, a little bit a little bit struck down. I mean, what do you say to that? There is absolutely no comeback, is there?

Mark

Fascinating insight, though. Like he's articulating what's going on, which is, you know.

Rebecca

From never articulating anything other than, you know, pretty much screaming or shouting or throwing something to these absolute gems, these nuggets of information. That I can't deal with and I don't know how to process them. But a more cheerful one was a little while ago, and I did actually post about that one on that little Facebook group that we met on Mark We went to a children's play center and you're supposed to be under twelve and he's thirteen.

Mark

So there was a little bit of subterfuge to get in, which is all very exciting.

Rebecca

But he did say, Yeah, exactly. But he did say to me, if they asked me how old I am, I'm not lying. So I thought, great, thanks very much. But when we sort of spent a very happy couple of hours enjoying ourselves on all the play equipment, and just before we went, he said, Oh. Before we go, can I pretend to be a dead body on the slides? And um, and I was like, Yeah, okay. So he posed as a corpse on the giant slide in various positions. I had to take the pictures. And then when we got home, we sort of did a couple of memes and we wrote we wrote together, we wrote a review. So they're drawn up by the page. Which pretty much he you know, word for word, what he said was, great plays, amazing facilities, lovely pizza, shame about the corpse on the slide. So He's begged me to post his show.

Mark

Have you posted it?

Rebecca

I actually haven't yet. I feel really bad. I thought about making a f a I don't know, maybe I should. But the pictures are amazing, just him sort of lolloping. Face down, arms splayed on.

Mark

People aren't going to think of that as serious, are they?

Rebecca

No, I know. I should probably just be a bit more brave in the context of my life, really.

Mark

So, yeah.

Rebecca

He's a little sausage, isn't he? But yeah. What about you?

Mark

I've got some I've always got what the flip moments. One of them was from India, because India is now starting to develop some crackers. On the subject of meal times, India was eating soup with her fingers. I did provide a spoon, just to be clear. Was eating soup with her fingers, and I in my inimitable declarative way went, Oh, I I left a spoon out for you And she just looked at me and she went, Spoons are for manners people Like, yeah, I don't have any manners people in my house.

Rebecca

Anyway, Mark, I should probably I'm being pulled away by a PDA, which probably makes the the end of this the end of this confluence a little bit more real for you okay we can keep this in You're more than welcome to.

Mark

Just want to say a massive thank you to you, Rebecca, for coming to you.

Rebecca

You're more than welcome. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been really, really good chatting. I should probably go before you're treated to anything on camera that people wouldn't want to see.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

Thank you.

Mark

Yeah, the listeners cannot actually see this, but you are literally being dragged off off camera, which is Hilarious, and I think a lot of us get it. So you crack on with that, and I will continue doing the outro. Massive thank you to the listeners for continuing to support Neuroshambles and for spreading the word. amongst the neurodivergent community. Thank you for that. And if you want to follow us on any of the any of the socials, we are on Facebook and with Threads and Instagram and also TikTok. If you've got any suggestions for topics that you want to hear me discuss with my guests, please feel free to email me at hello at neuroshambles. com and I will happily add it to the list of topics that I offer to any guests that I discuss coming on the show. I think that's it for now. So until the next time we meet Neuroshamblers All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.