Why do our kids mask? | Pete Wharmby

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode 32 of Neuroshambles. Once again, it's an absolute joy to have you back aboard Neuroshamblers. Thanks for joining me. This is one of those episodes where you can actually hear me kind of connecting the dots. You know, sometimes I'll speak to a guest, then I'll go, oh, oh, wow. So that's why my child does that. It's always a bit of an eye-opener. So this is one of those episodes. So, as well as talking to my fabulous guest about this week's topic of the week. We've also got some Neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, and of course somewhat the flip moments. So let's get stuck in.

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Meet the guest.

Mark

So, this week's guest is someone I've admired for quite a while now because he regularly produces entertaining and thought-provoking content on the socials. I also recently listened to his excellent book, Untypical. So, I really wanted to get him on the podcast to share his experiences. As well as being an author and obviously a parent of an autistic child, he is also a tutor, a conference speaker, and a prolific advocate. for the Neurodivergent community. So I am delighted to be able to welcome aboard to Neuroshambles. It's Pete Warmby. How are you doing, Pete?

Pete

Hello. Yeah, I'm fine, thank you. Yep, just uh Relaxing on this relatively grey day.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. So, obviously, before we launch into it, it's useful for the listeners to have an understanding of your setup and which neurodivergencies you're dealing with there. So can you just enlighten us, please?

Pete

Yeah, of course. In my household, as it were, I obviously am autistic and ADHD. I was diagnosed late with both of those things. I've got the one child, a daughter, who is currently undiagnosed. But I am absolutely certain that she's certainly autistic.

Mark

If anyone's gonna know, it's gonna be you, right?

Pete

I I would hope so. I'd hope I'd be able to recognize it if it was, you know, slap bang in my face like that. But she's very similar to me in terms of her autistic traits, her autistic presentation. Whether or not she's ADHD, I'm still a bit on the fence with, to be quite honest. As anyone knows who's got Aud in the family or for themselves, it's really difficult to unpick The various strands and to identify those little bits because autism and ADHD interact in such interesting ways. But she certainly displays some traits which I would associate with ADHD. She's nine years old. And she's quite mature for a nine-year-old too. We've had a very, very open discussion, you know, throughout her conscious life, really, you know, ever since she was quite young. Because I was diagnosed when she was only two. So, basically, the entirety of her life that she's that she remembers, you know, she's had an autistic person in the household. So, we've always talked very openly about it. We laugh about it a lot. We are self-deprecating in that way. That you know, I certainly am, and she is too. We spend a lot of time on the drive home from school, for example, kind of exploring and discussing the politics that she's experienced that day.

Mark

Okay.

Pete

You know, the kind of playground social Interactions that she hasn't followed and hasn't quite got.

Mark

I don't know how you would have an answer to that either, though. I mean, why have it a mystery out there?

Pete

Yeah, often I just throw my hands up, but sometimes, you know, age and experience, even when you're autistic, age and experience does work for something. You know, I can at least kind of give her my take on things.

Mark

Also, sometimes saying, I don't know, is actually enough. You're not wrong to be confused by that.

Pete

Exactly. It validates her a lot, I think. So so yes, it's a really positive thing.

Mark

All right. Well, thanks for introducing us to your setup. Well, there is a lot to cover in this one, and I'm very excited to kind of get into the weeds of this and work out what's going on. So let's just crack on with it.

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What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, this week's topic is something that I've touched on a lot in Euro Shambles, and that is the issue of masking. So hardly an episode goes by without either me or one of my esteemed guests alluding to it in some way or another, because it's something that undoubtedly affects the vast majority of our kids, I would say. So I thought it warranted a closer look in a dedicated episode so we can give it the attention it deserves. So firstly, let's start with the easy bit. What is masking?

Pete

Well, you say easy, but I mean, easier than some of the other stuff we're going to get.

Mark

True, true.

Pete

Well, when I first started talking about this stuff. You know, back in what 2019 or whenever it was, before the pandemic, I thought masking was relatively straightforward. And I think, you know, it's often presented as such. It's this idea that it's autistic people having to present as neurotypical in order to pass through life without getting too much negative attention, which is a big part of what masking is. But it's also not the whole story. There are other aspects of it. You know, there are other there are other things going on when it comes to masking. which will undoubtedly go into. And I don't want to kind of talk about all of it now, but that is a big part of it. You know, it is a self-defense mechanism that we utilize to stop ourselves getting bullied. harassed, treated poorly, that kind of thing. But it can also be a um not so much a choice, but a more conscious thing where Autistic people don't just mask being autistic in terms of how we communicate. We also mask being autistic in every other way. And of course, a big part of being autistic is our sensory difference. So, you know, things being too bright, too loud, too smelly, too whatever. And I think actually that a lot of masking is to do with that. I think much of the time, autistic people have to mask their discomfort. And autistic children, autistic adults will mask how much they are affected by their environment because they know that it's not something that's shared by the people around them Because they're probably not autistic and therefore aren't that sensitive. And therefore, if they do complain, they will just get ignored or told that it's nothing. I call it the don't be daft problem. Which is where we say, like, you know, it's too noisy in here, it's too bright, there's too many people. And the neurotypical person looks around and they're like, no, it's not. It's not a problem for me.

Mark

Deal with it.

Pete

Yeah, it's fine. Don't be so silly. You're making a big deal out of this. You're being a drama. You know, you're making a big thing here. And we get told that all the way through. So that becomes part of the mask, I think. The number of times as a child. that I sat through the most uncomfortable situations. And I'm not talking like social discomfort, I'm talking proper physical discomfort. Because I knew that I had no choice.

Mark

And people dismissed, would have dismissed you had you raised anything.

Pete

Yes, yeah. I knew that from experience. So I would force myself to sit through and to just grit my teeth. And looking back, now that I'm more okay with myself and now that I have my own autonomy, I would never do that to myself now, unless I really had to. Looking back, I think, my God, that was horrible.

Mark

Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, what's interesting, you're sort of bringing it to the neurotypicals and because I think everybody to a degree, neurotypicals and neurodivergence, exhibits some element of chameleoning. Oh, of course, yes. And it's important to to kind of emphasize the distinction between that. So, you know, for example, if I'm having a meal with my parents, I'm going to be different. I'm going to not burp and swear. I'm not going to order tequila for the table, right? Whereas if I'm with my mates, those things are likely to be on the card. Of course. Maybe not the verpic.

Pete

Oh no, you know, I let it all hang out. But you're right, yeah. Well, we have to remember that there is very little about being autistic that is unique to autistic people. And masking is no exception. Masking is, well. A form of masking is something that all human beings do. We often call it code switching, which is a kind of linguistic or sociological term to do with people, yeah, as you say. Having a different way of being when they're with different people. That is fundamentally similar to masking. The way that I always like to make it clear to people is that one of the key times that anyone will mask is during a really high tension, high stress situation like an interview is probably the best example. You know, a work interview, pretty much everyone on the planet will mask for that. You know, you have to.

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You have to put on that professional demeanor.

Pete

You're probably not like that normally. But also, you've got that desire to impress, you've got that desire to stand out. So you Paint a face on.

Mark

Also, you're like, what do they want from me? You're thinking about that all the time.

Pete

Absolutely, absolutely. And this is such a fundamental part of Human existence, that we have lots of phrases about this. You know, we talk about wearing a smile, we talk about trying to fit in. You know, these are basically relating to masking. So interviews happen, but the thing is. When a neurotypical person gets home from an interview, or indeed the moment they leave the building, or even the moment they leave the room. What do they do? They go breathe a massive sigh of relief. Oh, thank God for that.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Pete

Yeah, you know, shoulders drop, big deep breath, a sigh. You know, you get home, you take your suit off.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Pete

Get your shirt and tie off immediately. Exactly. You take your shoes off, you put your pajamas on. You know, you go back to you. The point I always like to make to neurotypicals who are seeking to join the dots here is, okay, so I kind of know that for autistic people. We are doing that interview always. Yeah, okay. The number of times we actually get in any given day to actually do that whole deep breath, slump shoulders, change into our PJs, well, probably not that much. Certainly, for a child, they will be feeling that interview star pressure the entirety of the school day.

Mark

This is it. I mean, this is kind of brings us to why our kids mask, and it is that being. in the school environment is incredibly dysregulating, and there are so many rules and expectations that they're kind of expected to conform to. particularly if they're not diagnosed as well.

Pete

There's there's no accommodations made.

Mark

And a lot of it is to do with meeting those social expectations.

Pete

Well, I always say that social expectations are the They are the nemesis of the autistic person. That is the crux of it. We are fine when there are no social expectations. Well, relatively, anyway. So, you know, I'm fine on my own, or I'm fine around other autistic people, or even I'm relatively fine around neurotypical people who have booked me for a talk because they know I'm autistic. They know I'm autistic.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Pete

I can be as, in fact, in many ways, the more I let it all hang out, the better, because they're like, oh, wow, we're really getting the authentic experience here.

Mark

Love it, look, look, he's stimming, he's stimming.

Pete

Look, look, look, look, yeah, look at him go, look at him go. And that's something that I'm very lucky to have. You know, I can be openly different. And it's actually almost a boon to me. Whereas for pretty much every child in school. being openly autistic is going to be a difficult thing.

Mark

Yes, because other people's understanding of autism is uh vague, if at best, I think. And kids can be particularly unforgiving as well i think um with differences yes they can be and they used to be i'm hoping it's changing but um back in my day

Pete

I can forgive the kids. I can forgive a kid who is mean to an autistic kid because they're a kid and they don't know that better. It's the adults. They're the problem. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, being bullied and having, you know, the peer pressure and all that from kids being nasty is real. And I'm not saying for a moment that that's not harmful. It is. But I don't blame the kids as much as I blame the adults in the situation. I've worked in schools, I was a teacher for 15 years. A school has a culture, and the culture is formed by the adults in that culture. and that will i i affect how the kids treat difference so for me yes it it it always comes down to the adults and i remember there was a um something that i heard an autistic advocate alexis quinn Say she said that being different and being bullied, but it's not just the kids.

Mark

The adults are just as bad.

Pete

And that stuck with me. And that's something I've seen, you know, from time in schools.

Mark

Yeah, which is horrendous because actually they're teachers. You're actually teaching not just the lesson, but actually respect and understanding and Absolutely.

Pete

But it's not even so much that they're teaching it's just the adult world generally, the human adult world, you know, in the society that we have at the moment. Just can't cope with the difference that autistic people provide.

Mark

Which is exactly why our kids mask, right?

Pete

Yeah, because they know they have to.

Mark

There's an element of them not being accepted. in their true form, if you like, in their authentic selves. And you know, just to kind of go back to the societal expectations thing, that that society has these unwritten rules. So many unwritten rules that don't come naturally to neurodivergence because largely they don't really make sense, right?

Pete

Well, exactly. I think the jury is still out as to exactly what's going on there when it comes to you know why neurodivergent autistic people in particular don't respond to these unwritten rules some people think it's because we're naturally anarchical, you know, that we don't really care for rules, but then there's plenty of evidence to suggest that we actually quite like oh no, absolutely, yeah. You know, um I I personally think it's ambiguity. I think autistic people shun Ambiguity. I think we hate ambiguity.

Mark

Well, you need clarity because of these unwritten rules.

Pete

Exactly.

Mark

It's like, am I? If I, if you tell me what the rules are, I can. Either work out what you're expecting from me and follow them, or tell you why they're absolutely wrong. But either way, give me something to To pin this on, you know, yeah, and and kids in school have this consistently throughout their school life.

Pete

There are the rules around who's allowed to talk. One of the most confusing things for me as a kid was the fact that there seemed to be different hierarchies for who was allowed to talk in any given situation.

Mark

Right.

Pete

Both in class with teachers, whereby some kids would get away with talking, other kids wouldn't, and I never understood why. But also in friendship groups where Some people seem to be more important than others.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

And that's really confusing. The fact that every friendship group seems to have a kind of leader, you know, a kind of a head honcho of some kind. Is something that I don't think autistic people. If we had, if you imagine like having an autistic kind of group of people somewhere, I think it's probably fair to say. That it might not stratify in the same way as neurotypical people do.

Mark

That's really interesting.

Pete

Yeah. I don't, I mean, this is purely hypothetical and kind of my own thoughts, but I suspect. That the natural stratification that happens in neurotypical groups, whereby a kind of leader and a deputy and you know, grunts kind of develop you know, like sedimentary deposits at the bottom of a river. Autistic people are thrown by that and confused by it because I don't think we do that. I don't think we are prone as much to that. I think we are more tending towards the egalitarian, of just all being on the same kind of level. Maybe because none of us want to take charge, because that's a horrible thing to have to do. I don't know. You've got to be careful because I'm generalizing, but it's a very fascinating thing. But it's an unwritten rule that autistic kids in particular struggle with. It's one of those things that I talk to my daughter about. On the drive home.

Mark

Yes. You know, who's the top dog?

Pete

Yeah, you know, this whole thing of there being alphas, you know, being people bossy people who are somehow at the top of the social ladder. Very, very strange.

Mark

Yeah, that is just one of the set of social rules that autistic children have to navigate. But also there's the typical expectations like eye contact. For example, you have to make eye contact to show you're listening. And I know that if Otto, who's my middle child, he hates making eye contact. And I know that at school, he's asked to make eye contact to show that he's listening, even though they know it's an instinct. I do it myself sometimes as well, which are like I immediately kind of have to correct myself because, you know, he's also ADHD, so his mind is, you know, he's very easily distracted. So I ask him to look at me to prove he's listening. But, you know, if you're doing that in school and he finds it physically uncomfortable, then he's He's masking.

Pete

He is, and it's taking a toll. And we have to remember, you know, it's interesting because you said about it being instinctive. Only here. There are plenty of places in the world where eye contact is not. Required.

Mark

Really? Interesting.

Pete

Oh, yes. There are cultures where making eye contact with somebody will be seen as being disrespectful or too much, you know. It's important to note just how much of this is just normalized by our particular culture.

Mark

So, kind of Western, Western.

Pete

Yeah, but Western, maybe even just British, you know, in some respects, you know, some communication. Cultural differences are purely British, you know, like the um like the overuse of negative politeness, for example, which is the um technical term for when we say things like If it's not too much trouble, could you possibly? You know, where we try to minimize the impact we're having on someone.

Mark

Yeah, I'm terribly sorry, but you're standing on my foot.

Pete

Exactly, yes, yes. You know, I'm really sorry, but. And I hate to ask, but I really must ask, and I really do. I feel terrible. It's the Hugh Grant thing. You know, it's that juddering kind of, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. But, and that is certainly a British thing. It does exist in other cultures too. But, you know, French people, German people, Dutch people, Americans look at us. With kind of, I think they find it quite cute.

Mark

Yeah, and conversely, I find it quite thrilling to meet a Dutch person.

Pete

Oh, God, yeah, they do.

Mark

Because that's so direct. And Germans as well. They find a very just like matter of fact about what they want, a very direct. And that's that's quite nice.

Pete

And I think that sort of feeds into the autistic brain as well, right? It's like, oh, you're saying what you want. It raises the fascinating issue of: is it easier to be autistic in some different country? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is really, you know, something that I'd love to look more into.

Mark

Or are all Germans autistic?

Pete

Indeed. God, don't go that way.

Mark

Just to be clear, I'm not actually saying that.

Pete

God imagine. But yeah, it's you know, going back to the the earlier point about the eye contact, I I think it it would be good for neurotypicals to actually just take a step back. And really self-interrogate themselves as to why they expect these things. You know, when the teacher says, Did you have a good weekend? And a child explains in detail why they didn't, that is a social rule broken. Yes. That's not something that has to be. You know, we are often enslaved to our social expectations, neurotypicals as well. And that's what Causes so many problems. If people are just a little bit more able to free themselves a bit from that and just be a bit more able to deal with the unexpected and Things that weren't quite what we did expect, then autistic people would have a much nicer time.

Mark

But when, like, so when faced with the question like that, of like, how is your weekend? Yes, for me, as an undiagnosed neurotypical. It's not something that causes me dissonance, right? I don't I it's just like, yeah, fine, it was nice. I might give one detail. Of something that I did, just so that I've got, look, that's the thing. We've just been friendly, now we can go about our business, right? But for a neuro-divergent person. There's a whole like, oh fuck, what do they want? How much detail do they want? It sets off the cogs, right, of trying to work out what does this person want from me and how well do I know them and all that overthinking.

Pete

that Autistic People in particular do get in that moment, stems from the fact, the simple fact, that we know we're gonna have to lie. And as anyone who's ever had to lie knows, that comes with a big side order of overthinking. You know, if you have to tell a lie, you overthink it. You wonder how you're going to come across. The moment somebody says to you, especially as an autistic child, how is your weekend? If that child has experienced this game before, they will know they have to lie. They know that they can't just tell the truth. They know they can't tell their truth. Their truth could well be that they want to say, Well, actually, we did this on the Friday night. I didn't really enjoy that. On the Saturday, we did this, which was actually quite good fun. I'd like to do that again. And on Sunday, I did all this, and it was brilliant. Let me now tell you all about it.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Pete

They know they can't do that, even though that would be a rational response to the question. Yes. So they start to overthink because they know they're going to have to tell a falsehood. They're going to have to say something. Or, at the very least, be very, very vague and ambiguous, which is something, as I said, we don't like. So, we are immediately thinking, Oh God, I'm going to come unstuck here. I'm going to get this wrong. Oh God, oh God, I got this wrong before and it was awful. And that person doesn't even talk to me anymore.

Mark

And that's the thing, isn't it? Because they're so used to having negative experiences as a result of them being. More authentic, let's say. They're learning from an early age that their their natural reaction isn't right. And that's the thing that makes it like for me with my kids and stuff. That's what makes it quite difficult for me as a parent to think: how many tiny interactions have you had where you've been corrected or you've been perceived as wrong or you've been treated as wrong? Yes. and how how much that impacts them just you know in incrementally bit by bit until they're building up this armor because when they're four or five year olds There's no expectations on them. They're cute because they're just kind of a bit bonkers and a bit different, and that's really nice. But over time, this armor has to build up to stave away this dissonance of like, I'm other. And that's a really as a parent, that's quite a hard thing to have to watch.

Pete

It is. It is. And it brings us to another key aspect of masking, which is. The fact that it is a trauma response fundamentally. Because yeah, all of these little you know micro moments throughout their life where they are told they're wrong, they're told they're strange, people back away from them, people just stop talking to them, people Give a kind of forced smile and are just kind of looking at them quizzically, all of that builds up. Yeah, you know, and from a very early age, you recognize that there's something wrong with you. I'm using hand quotes here, there's something wrong with you. Which means that, yeah, you second guess everything you say. You come to fear social interaction because things go wrong unexpectedly. Often for autistic people, much of our anxiety that we have I mean, as we all know, autistic people have anxiety a lot. A lot of that comes from our experience of unexpected criticism that just kind of flies in from nowhere. We you know, I mean, I always give the example of the debrief after a social event. And I had this as a kid, where you'd go to a social event and you'd leave it thinking, oh, you know what? I did all right there.

Mark

I smashed that one.

Pete

You know, I smashed that. And then somebody comes up to you and says. Why the hell did you say that? And you're like, what? Why did you say, why did you make that put? And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what did I do? And you get a kind of offloading of all the things you actually did wrong without even realizing it.

Mark

Really?

Pete

That has an impact.

Mark

Yeah, of course.

Pete

You know, like if you have that throughout your childhood and teenage years. You are screwed for life. You need therapy.

Mark

Yeah, because you go into situations going, I'm going to, I don't want to mess this up. So that's when you. Introduce the strategy. Exactly, you make eye contact, you shut the fuck up, laugh along to everyone's jokes, and get the hell out of there as quickly as you can.

Pete

Well, this is why autistic people have a general reputation for being antisocial. It's long been believed that autistic people are naturally solitary animals, that you know, we don't need people, and that's nonsense. We do. I mean, I don't. I am naturally solitary, like some people are, but actually, a lot of autistic people can be quite gregarious, quite outgoing, extroverts, even. But. You're not anymore because you've had that possibly even literally beaten out of you.

Mark

Yes, but conversely, if you are hanging out with another group of neurodivergents

Pete

It could be great.

Mark

You drop the pretense, right? You drop the mass because you need to.

Pete

Or you try to, at least.

Mark

Yes. Yeah, I'm obviously not speaking on behalf of Autistics, but my understanding is you're going in with a level playing field. Because you're dri you leaving the conscious social expectations at the door. There may well still be some inherent conforming to social expectations that you might not even be aware of.

Pete

Yeah, we we know from studies done at the University of Edinburgh that the autistic people's communication with each other is actually pretty sound and it's pretty good. But there is a fly in the ointment, which is that by the time a kid gets to, I don't know, like 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, they have already learned the hard way about things like Oh, people don't say what they mean. People actually lie and they actually mean one thing when they mean the other. Now, the effect that has then when they talk to other autistic people is They're conditioned to expect that, if that makes sense.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

So when an autistic person is totally blunt with them, which is ostensibly what they want, they're conditioned to expect double speak. They're conditioned to expect there to be some kind of underlying subtext. There isn't because they're talking to another autistic person, but they're still waiting for it, and that can cause massive problems in autistic relationships. Because you're so conditioned to talk to neurotypicals that when you finally get to talk to another autistic person, you're still screwed. Because you've been conditioned into expecting something that you're not going to get. So, you know, in my experience, autistic people spend a long time saying to each other, there is no subtext. I am saying what I'm saying, and the other person's like, I know, I know, but I can't help it, you know. Because we get trained, you know, harshly to expect it. It really is a mess. It's such a mess.

Mark

I wanted to kind of touch on some of the. The strategies that people use to mask because there are so many different ones. And I think they largely fall into three broad sections. So, firstly, there's like concealing their own natural traits. Which is like, you know, you'd stop stimming, for example, or you minimize your stimming, or you decide not to really launch into your soliloquy about your special interests, even though you really want to.

Pete

Absolutely.

Mark

And the eye contact thing we've got. and again, it's a part of a way of fitting in as well because they know that if they exhibit these traits, then they're not accepted. Facial expressions as well, controlling facial expressions.

Pete

Oh, yes,

Mark

that's quite a big one, isn't it? Because when but you know, if someone's not interested in what you've gotta say, you have to pretend Yes, absolutely.

Pete

And and and also of course, you you know, you might your your facial expressions might not match what you actually are feeling. That's a relatively common thing for autistic people. that I often make the point, especially when I'm talking, you know, giving speeches and stuff about Christmas morning being a real problem for that. You get a gift that you love. You know, you're so happy that mum and dad got you an N64. You know, I'm talking from experience here. You know, you're so over the moon and you've opened it and you're happy as hell. And your mum turns to are you okay? Is that what you wanted? And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm really, I'm really happy. No, you can't see this because, you know, this is an auditory medium, but I just, you know, just pulled a very basic, flat. Deadpan Deadpan Face. Deadpan face. And that can cause real issues because people just don't know what's going on there and they get very confused. A lot of autistic people, when they realize this, we can actually be quite exaggerated in our fashion. I think I do this. I'm really expressive. to try to make up for that.

Mark

Yeah, I think Jay, my oldest, does that sometimes where he's he's you know, we're having a conversation and he's finding it funny, but He really goes over the top to kind of just maniacal laugh like an absolute maniac.

Pete

That's a kid finding their level, isn't it? What they're doing is that they're They're calibrating it.

Mark

They're in the middle of doing that.

Pete

But they'll land on the correct amount soon.

Mark

At the moment, But I like it because it is like he is feeling it.

Pete

Yeah.

Mark

You know, he's feeling he wants to share that he's enjoying this moment. But it's not natural to him at the moment, the sort of the level to which he needs to do that. It's interesting because I don't think that Jay masks much at all, which It's quite interesting to me because I don't think all autistic kids do math.

Pete

No.

Mark

I mean, Jay is the typical example of this in that he just will speak his mind. And he'll even if it's not very complimentary, especially if it's not very complimentary, actually, he will just come out with it, which I love. And part of the the reason that Jay gives me so much joy is because he's so he's so authentic and he will he doesn't sugarcoat anything and he's got this wonderful use of language and he's just very funny But it can be a problem.

Pete

Yes, yeah.

Mark

Because people expect masking. And like I went to um he's really into Greek mythology and I went to this workshop day, which was about Greek mythology. There was a bit of kind of Greek mythology storytelling in the morning. And it was a group which was pretty much full of autistic kids. So I was like, great. I've got his special interest. I've got people who understand him. and he's gonna have a good time. You know, it's not been very easy to get him doing external activities lately 'cause he's just emerging from the grimy burrow of Burnout, you know. Um, and so this was the thing: it's like, great, we can go out, we can do this together, fantastic. And he did not mask at all, and I was just Just going, please, please, just just rate it in a bit. Because someone said something about a Greek tale and they got a detail I won't say wrong because it's Greek mythology, right? There are different versions. But it was, to him, it was wrong because it was not the version that he knew. And he was so rude to this kid. It was mortifying because, oh, and it was like, just rein it in a little bit. And he doesn't have that. And part of me is like, I'm kind of glad that he's authentic, but also he could do with brushing up on a little bit of masking just to employ it when he needs it.

Pete

Yeah, it's an interesting issue, isn't it? Because yeah, you're right. You know, not masking can lead to a black eye. Ultimately, can't it? You know, it can lead to being ostracized, being treated poorly. So, yeah, absolutely. And I've seen that dynamic many times.

Mark

Yeah.

Pete

You know, an autistic person being just. Really authentically, them, and it comes across as rude. But there's two aspects here. One aspect is a kind of societal thing, which I don't really expect to change, but it is interesting to take a step back and just kind of think. What is rude? Like, yeah, it's interesting because there is a problem, I think, in society of people not being told that they're wrong. There's a statement. Yeah, but but because there is this fear of you know coming across the room um but but but that's by the by the other thing to bear in mind is that I actually fundamentally agree with you that the autistic kids can actually benefit from Being taught how to do this, but there are massive provisos here. Yes, I don't want to get attacked by my own community. I'm not suggesting here, for example, anything to do with ABA or enforced masking at all. What I prefer the idea of Is for autistic people to be kind of taught neurotypical as a foreign language.

Mark

Okay, I like it. Yeah.

Pete

Yeah. You know, it's it's not secret that there's no secret behind it. It's it's taught like that. You know, a kind of right right then. You know, what we're gonna do today We're going to learn that neurotypical people, for whatever reason, don't like being told they're wrong. So when they are wrong and you want to tell them they're wrong, because you want to tell them they're wrong, because it's important that they're not.

Mark

They need to know, They need to correct themselves. There are that, yeah.

Pete

That there are maybe things that you've got To do and things you've got to say to make that happen. That kind of thing. Yes. I think. And conversely, of course, because it's got to be fair, neurotypical people should also be taught. How neurodivergent people were.

Mark

I love this as an idea. This is something when I was talking to Kieran Rose about conversations, we can imagine he was. But I sort of. I like the idea of having lessons where it's like, look, here as a neurodivergent, here is how I like to communicate. And then they the neurotypicals chip in and th there's almost a sort of a shared dialogue about a dialogue.

Pete

Yes, yeah, a fascination because it is fascinating, genuinely. And I've always found A little bit like with my daughter, where we openly talk about this stuff. It gets rid of the taboo, it gets rid of that feeling of inadequacy, it just makes it all feel perfectly normal and natural. And yeah, a world where neurodivergent people, autistic people in particular, were explicitly taught neurotypical ways of communicating, whilst Simultaneously being told that their neurodivergent style is absolutely valid and that is their natural language. I think that would be great. What tends to happen is neurodivergent people are basically taught that they're wrong. Yeah. And that neurotypical ways are correct, which is arrogant in a way that I can barely even explore. You know, it's just like, wow. Neurotypical people, what is your deal? Like, you know, there's not only one way.

Mark

I think it's more presumptuous than anything. And you know, there's this massive presumption that everyone is neurotypical. And now it's time to work out, you know, the more you look into it, the more you're like, actually, there's way, way. more neurodivergent things out there than we thought. And like you say, let's have that conversation. I love the idea of have treating it as a foreign language. I think is it and in Afghanistan, if you put the thumbs up to someone, it's like deeply offensive 'cause it's absolutely so you need to know that before you go there. So you would approach these lessons with that in mind of like, okay, so How am I going to navigate this different culture? And to have that interesting conversation, I think, would be really beneficial in schools, like from that age.

Pete

Yeah, from the very beginning. You know, teachers and even nursery workers have to just rise up to and wake up to the fact that they are working with large numbers of neurodivergent kids of various different neurodivergences, way more than they would ever have thought. And that therefore explicit and very clear teaching of this stuff to the teachers, you know, as part of their training is is vital. You know, they need to know this. And what that would do is, it wouldn't eradicate masking at all. Because fundamentally, of course, masking is human and there would still be some need for it, you know, a lot of the time. But it would certainly take the sting out. And it would mean that autistic people could be more openly themselves because not only can they, presumably if they've been taught this stuff, code switch to neurotypical when they need to, you know, in a way that is still maintains the integrity of their true selves, but they would be around people who understood them in turn.

Mark

Yeah, I like this idea of code switching.

Pete

It's really interesting. I've not thought of it like that.

Mark

But um yes, but social like okay, we're playing by different rules in this situation.

Pete

Exactly. But the problem is that historically it's been the autistic person's job to do all of that switching.

Mark

Whereas if it was more egalitarian, where neurotypical people had to code switch to as a Alleged neurotypical. I do that all the time now because if I'm aware I'm speaking to someone who's autistic, I will make those accommodations. And it's not a hardship, it's just because I know, because I've done the learning and I've, you know.

Pete

you stop eye contact, you are more o open to, you know, longer frating longer turn taking. You know, typically autistic people will talk As you probably noticed with me, we will talk much longer. I think that's why autistic people can be great interview guests because we don't tend to, you know, we can really go and go and go.

Mark

It's an editing nightmare though, Pete. Yeah, sorry.

Pete

I always like to encourage neurotypical people to try it out. You know, like say to a neurotypical person, you know that hobby you like? Have you ever really tried to explain it in detail to a friend? Because it's f flipping brilliant. It's lovely to do that. Give it a try, see if you like it. You know, small talk, why bother? Why don't you go a whole day without using small talk to see how it feels?

Mark

Go big guys

SECTION INTRO

Straight to big talk and see how that feels.

Pete

You know, just get rid of this air of mystery and deficiency and medicalization away from all of it and just be like, look, this is just a different way of doing it.

Mark

Would be great, in my opinion. So, back to the strategies that people use, because there's obviously this conversation is good, but that's what I love about Neuroshambles is that we'd sort of follow little conversational bridal waves and then we come back to the main path. So the other strategy that people use, apart from just concealing their own traits which is, you know, difficult to do, but but there's an awareness that they need to do it. There's also faking it, which is is this sort of as we're talking about with Jay, laughter as a social lubricant, just to look, I'm enjoying this, or small talk as you've alluded to, like having to try to be interested in what how someone's weekend was and pretending to understand things when you're at you know, like if you're having a conversation, they're like, you know, do you get that? And you just go

Pete

Yeah, because I can't be bothered to say no. Or or you daren't say no because your past experience has taught you that asking clarifying questions is not okay. Right, I don't know. You don't know what the deal is for neurotypical people, but they don't like that. Yeah, it really is. don't and it's weird it's like i learned from an early age not to ask any questions you know just to yeah i got it I understand.

Mark

That's heartbreaking to hear just from because I know that you know you're talking about your experience, but our kids are going through this all the time, right?

Pete

My daughter's terrified of it. She will always just kind of nod. and be like, Yeah, okay.

Mark

And I know Otto has that in school as well. Like he I said, Did you do, you know, any school work today? 'Cause it's not it's not a given, even though he's in school at the moment. And he was like, No. And I said, Well, why? And he went into the class and they were doing something, he didn't understand it. And I said, Well, you could ask. He was like, No, he didn't want to ask because again, like I think there's that Fear of the disapproval, or also fear of making yourself stand out because everyone else gets it. So, why am I the one that doesn't get it? So, I'll just keep my head down and then not do the work. And so just pretending that you're getting on is problematic.

Pete

I I never forget. It still reverberates in my brain today, but I was in year five, I think. So I would have been what? nine years old, same age as my daughter is now. I was working through my maths textbook. We did gin maths, it was called. Okay. Different color books for your ability. Just to really highlight to the other kids how bad you were, and I had no idea what I was doing. Um, I hadn't followed the instructions because they were too complicated, and like a lot of autistic people, like for example, I can't do Twister. I can't do yoga. I can't do anything which involves somebody telling me instructions step by step. I just start to fall apart.

Mark

Right, okay.

Pete

So I was sitting there with my maths book, just kind of vaguely ashamed that I was getting nothing done. The teacher came up to me. And started shouting at me, What are you doing? What on earth are you doing? You're not getting any work done. And I was like, I didn't know what I was meant to do. And I daren't ask because, you know, as we can see, you're a psycho, you're scary. And she was, you know, she was really cross with me. And honestly, that sticks in my head even today. There was this fear. And I think there is a fear of asking those clarifying questions. So part of our mask is, as you say, faking it. Yeah, okay, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. But we're not. We don't know. We don't understand. And we are just told over and over again. Basically, asking a clarifying question seems to be shorthand for I wasn't listening. I don't care about you.

Mark

Yeah.

Pete

I don't value you. That's how neurotypical people seem to respond, like we're saying that. When we're not, we're literally just saying, I wasn't following. Please explain again.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

Exactly. But but yeah, I know. And that's not how it's taken.

Mark

And I get part part of the issue is being in school because because school is is a difficult environment. teachers have a fucking hard job like it's you know you've got 30 kids there yeah exactly yeah so uh you know you've got 30 kids there, and you all got to get them through this curriculum, and you've got to hit these points for the majority of them. So, someone asking those kind of questions is going to slow the group down. So, I get why But it I mean, that's why the whole of education needs to change, right?

Pete

That's the trouble.

Mark

There's more than one podcast topic worth that. Yes. Yes. I I just wanted to touch on another c uh a couple of other masking strategies with faking it. Scripting conversations is an interesting one.

Pete

Yeah.

Mark

trying to think through how that conversation's go going to go so that you can then think of an appropriate response. I don't know if that's necessarily one with a kids employ at this age. Did you do that when you were kind of looking at?

Pete

Oh, I did. Okay. I did. Yeah, and I think my daughter does to an extent. It's often something that non-autistic people struggle to understand. I think they imagine us kind of. Literally writing a script. But what I always invite non-autistic people to do is imagine the last time that they had to make a really difficult phone call with somebody who's quite tricky, like I don't know, a solicitor or a lawyer or a doctor or. Something with which was high stakes, high pressure, and you had to get it right. An interview, you know. And actually, I think you'll find a lot of non-autistic people do script responses and conversations for an interview.

Mark

Yeah, it's a media trope.

Pete

You see it in films and TV shows. You know, you see the person kind of going to and fro, kind of write, and then they'll say this, and then I'll say this, and then they'll say that.

Mark

I'm laughing about this because obviously, you know, we're having a chat about. Stuff, but there's I've scripted a lot of this, not like this whole conversation because it's because it's important to me, and I want to make sure that there's like that I get all of the points that I want to kind of talk about. Absolutely.

Pete

Again, it's not an autistic thing. We do it more because for us, every conversation is that high pressure and that high stress.

Mark

Yes. Okay.

Pete

For neurotypical people, they don't need to worry about this because most conversations are fairly low stakes. you know, they're not gonna get told that they're horrible or rude or blunt or weird every single time they open their mouths. Whereas we do. So we script everything to try to avoid that. Again, it's kind of, it became medicalized. It became a kind of symptom of autism. You know, we script obsessively, you know, in our little burrows, you know, kind of. And it's like, no, no, no, it's not like that. We are doing it for very clear. Logical reasons that you should be able to empathize with.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

You're not trying to minimize your minimize things for you.

Mark

It'd be good if you could just kind of go and go, Look, this is my part. And hand a script to the other person and go, right, let's play this out where I get the job.

Pete

Yes, exactly, yes, yes. You know, in many ways, the fact that we feel that we have to do that with our friends is more of an indictment on how we're treated than it is on just being autistic. You know, if we feel the need to do that, even with our nearest and dearest. Well, it's because of how we've been treated in the past. Yeah, and I guess I guess, you know, the question then is, firstly, are they the wrong friends?

Mark

If you find yourself having to do that. But secondly, it's like, actually. I'm sure that if you were more authentic, didn't have to kind of mask around them, they would be accepting. You know, and so well, that's how you work out. That's the litmus test, isn't it?

Pete

It is. Yes. Yeah, it really is.

Mark

You know, and I'm sure. You know, a lot of the times I've spoken to people on this podcast, you know, I've been worried about my kids' friendships, ability to make friends and stuff. But people have reassured me that when they get older, they find their little group of people that they're comfortable with. They don't have to mask as much and it you know, it becomes better. They don't have to adopt this persona. Because again, that's a thing, another facet of this faking it thing. It's like, I'm going to pretend to be a person that is acceptable in this group. And that's you know, I I see my kids without the mask and they are fucking excellent. They are hilarious and they're absolutely like wildly creative and interesting and full on, but you know, just full of joy. And so the thought of them going out there and being different humans It's really sad to me.

Pete

Yeah, it is. It is. Masking is a deadener. It's a bit like an antidepressant, you know? You have to saw off all your edges. You're fitting yourself. Yeah, you're spiky. You're interesting bits. You're smoothing them all down and you're turning yourself into a, you know. Human 2. 0, you know, just an acceptable human. And so much is lost in that process. And, you know, by the time you get to my age and you've done it all your life. How much of that loss is permanent?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete

You know, because that's something we do need to touch on. You know, the after effects of all of this. Yes. You know, masking is not free. It doesn't come without any bad outcomes. You know, and how much of all this stuff that we have to, you know, sand off and break off and soar off? is gone forever.

Mark

Yeah.

Pete

Or very hard to get back. And that's a tragedy, in my opinion.

Mark

That's really sad. Yeah, we'll dig into that. Further, because again, that's really interesting. The final kind of set of strategies I think people use, it's perfectly valid, is just avoiding shit. That they don't want to do avoiding large social, you know, those situations that are going to make me want to mass. You know what? I'm not going to go to that birthday party. Um, because it's in a club and, you know, what I mean, obviously that's not relating to our kids. My kids are not going clubbing. So maybe that was the wrong analogy. But um they avoid situations that are going to uh cause them to mask because masking is essentially causing dissonance. So they're going to want to step away from that.

Pete

So Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

It's why they avoid school. It's why they don't want to go to school.

Pete

Yeah. Any any adults in the situation that approach school refusal without bearing this in mind Are going to be barking up the wrong tree.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

You know, that you have to take into account the masking and how much desirable it is to avoid that. Like, before I do anything like this that I'm doing now with you, I will have a time period whereby I will be vaguely panicking and wondering whether I can cancel before I do anything, work, podcasts, speeches, interviews, because I know that I will have to mask and I would rather not. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Yeah,

Pete

but sometimes it does win, and sometimes I have been known, and I feel bad about it, but I also want to go on record to say that you know, I sometimes I do cancel for this reason. I haven't got the energy.

Mark

You need to prioritize yourself.

Pete

Yeah, you know, and and I feel dreadful, you know, and but but ultimately What can I do? I've got to survive. But kids, of course, I have the autonomy to do that as a self-employed, relatively, you know, I'm doing all right. You know, I've got books and stuff. Yeah, I've got that autonomy. I can make these decisions. Kids don't have that. A kid at school cannot just decide to take a break and not bother with that homework because they're too exhausted.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

You know, and and that sorry, I always go off on one, but this is one of the problems with schools saying Well, we have to get them ready for the real world. It's like, no, because actually when they leave school and they become adults, they have more autonomy.

Mark

Yeah, the real world's different now, anyway. You know, it is like real world now has remote working.

Pete

That wasn't exactly nine times out of ten, the work that I'm doing is for corporations and businesses. Who wants to know how to better treat their autistic employees? I do 10 times more of that than I do the equivalent for schools. The work-related world, the adult world, is way ahead of schools on this.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

You know, they are on top of this. And school's sitting back saying, well, you know, we've got to get them ready. We can't be coddling them. We've got to get them prepared. No, you are traumatizing them.

Mark

Well, preparing them for the trauma of life out in the real world.

Pete

And what they might experience as adults, I mean, I've seen this thousands, well, not thousands, many times with kids that I've taught, neurodivergent kids that I've taught. When they hit adulthood and they're in the real world, the real world, they thrive. Yeah.

Mark

Okay.

Pete

Because all of a sudden they have a modicum of freedom. To be themselves and to make their own choices.

Mark

And autonomy, yeah.

Pete

Autonomy, yeah.

Mark

Especially for PDA.

Pete

Absolutely. That is absolutely all they want. You know?

Mark

And this is what I'm kind of hoping that once they're free of the shackles of expectation of the education system, they're just going to go, right, this is what I'm doing. I'm going to crack on and forge ahead.

Pete

Absolutely.

Mark

And I Yeah, I feel optimistic that that's gonna happen. Another thing in terms of the avoidance side of things is basically people pleasing. And avoiding conflict, I think, is a very big part of masking.

Pete

It is. I mean, you could argue that that is fundamentally what masking is. Couldn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is people pleasing, it is presenting a version of you to the world that they will find acceptable. I mean, and I said earlier about it being a trauma response, and of course, fawning. Is a trauma response, isn't it? Along with fight, flight, freeze, flop. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I am a people pleaser through and through. I'm trying my best to kind of break that now. But that is my trauma response. And it's difficult. You know, you find your it puts you in all kinds of very difficult situations. Where you just daren't spark a conflict. Basically, it makes you feel cowardly.

Mark

You know, I feel cowardly because so at the time, or is it sort of you then get out of that situation and go, oh, what the fuck was I doing? I shouldn't have been up that tree.

Pete

Kind of both, really. Kind of both. You know, I feel bad during and I feel bad afterwards, you know, for not. Asserting myself in a more honest and realistic way, you know, because I'm desperately trying to avoid conflict. I'm desperately, desperately trying to stop. that from happening. And that I think is a big thing for a lot of kids.

Mark

I think Otto has that in particular.

Pete

And I think, you know, he goes with the flow.

Mark

And partly though, as well. He finds it difficult to make decisions. So that's another facet of it that is slightly it's not um masking in that sense of like he's just too late to actually come up with an idea or or or he doesn't want the dysregulation of having to choose because he's got this constant thing where um i if he chooses something, if it's wrong, he feels really bad. Or if he feels like there's a better choice out there, he gets really overwhelmed. So it's not People pleasing in that sense, he just finds it easier to let other people make that decision for him.

Pete

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, my daughter's like that. You know, we go in a toy shop and she'll buy a toy, and then afterwards, it'll be like Oh God, did I get the right thing? Like, did I really?

Mark

I know. Oh, no.

Pete

And it's all it's heart-wrenching to all of you.

Mark

It is, yeah. So what one strategy I I found this interesting. So Tam is my ex-partner, who is late diagnosed autistic, always hated group situations but would go along. to the group situations. And I think partly used me as the social battering ram because I would just go in and chat to anyone and then Tam would go and find an interesting person to talk to in the corner. And that was how we got by, and that was all fine. But now Tam is unmasking and understanding what they need. It's a very different situation. So they prefer to do activities Right. This is a very this is a very kind of interesting autistic strategy. So I will you know, they will go and do a thing. With a person, and then the emphasis isn't on conversation, and it's not on socializing, it's on doing the thing. And every conversation and socializing is a byproduct of being in that place sharing an experience with someone.

Pete

Yeah, I mean, I swear the only reason that I managed to cope with being in sixth form, you know, doing my A-levels, was that my little friendship group somehow, I don't know how, because we were the nerds, but we got control of the darts room.

Mark

Oh, no.

Pete

There was like a little dance room in the Sixth Form Common Room because I went to a, you know, Lincolnshire grammar school because they're still free there for some reason. And yeah, we colonised the darts room, which meant that for the entire two years. every social occasion at break and lunch time, we played darts. And that saved me. I genuinely believe that. That really helped me because it meant that every time we were in that Kind of break time, lunchtime situation. There was a structure, there was a game going on, there was something to do that wasn't just talking. So I absolutely agree with them on that. That is for me a huge thing.

Mark

So this is, I think, definitely a. Thing with Jay, uh, where he does Dungeons and Dragons, and that is very kind of that this is a social thing, but we're here for a reason.

Pete

Same with Warhammer, yeah, yeah, it's great for that.

Mark

We all know why we're here. We'll just, you know, we might, we might converse around it, but you know, let's kill this orc. Absolutely. And Otto has a similar thing with football. He. never showed any interest in football and then he got like super into it and plays it all the time. And that is again a s social tool for him around that egg activity. So although it's not masking, It's sort of avoiding the need to mask, if you see what I mean.

Pete

It's a way of having that social time without it being quite so intense. And football's fascinating to me because. It's such a blokey, masculine, you know, social thing. But I reckon there are loads of hidden autistics within that load. Both fans and players genuinely believe that. I know that rumors abound about Lionel Messi being autistic. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know whether it's ever been confirmed, but it's one of those kind of things that goes around.

Mark

That's what we need.

Pete

That's what we need.

Mark

Poster boy, that everyone's saying he's already on people's walls, you know.

Pete

Yeah, yeah, ready-made poster boy. I mean, I'm not in the business of armchair diagnosis by any stretch, so who knows? I don't even know much about the bloke other than Obvious massive talent and very focused. But it's certainly something that I've noticed being rumoured around an awful lot. I think it's often overlooked because we associate football in this country at least with being Highly sociable, and therefore we don't tend to associate it with autism.

Mark

But actually, oh, it's really autistic. Yeah, people who are really into their facts and figures and statistics, and you know, yeah, definitely.

Pete

You know, if you walk into a bar and start talking about trains or Sonic the Hedgehog, everyone, you know, even people who don't know much about it will be like, oh, bit bit on the spectrum, are you? Whereas if you turn up, you start talking about, you know, the record breaking season when Leicester City won the Premier League. Oh, everyone's like, Yeah, let's all sit down and talk about this thing. Great stuff. You know, it's it's so transparently um Biased.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. It's a social shorthand that they don't have to actually think about anything else. Okay, one thing I wanted to talk about was how masking obviously is in autistic survival. Mechanism. It also, I think, affects ADHD, which I don't know. I don't know if it's talked about as often, I think, because as you were saying earlier. With my kids, they're ADHD and autistic. So where does one end want another one begin? You know, you can't splice it and go, That's definitely an autistic trait. That's definitely an ADHD trait. So I was interested in you know uh how it affects just ADHD. Yeah.

Pete

Like with all masking, you know, what you what you're doing is trying to present a more acceptable face to the world. So What you've got to think about is those aspects of being ADHD which are unacceptable to the population. So for example, I've noticed, and I do this, and a lot of ADHD people I know do this, we tend to mask our disorganization.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete

We tend to try to present a face to the world which is fully on top of everything. You know, it's the swan kind of analogy of the elegant swan. with the feet beating furiously under the water. And that that's the kind of masking that I think a lot of ADHD people at least attempt to do. Yes, that's the thing. You know, because it is unacceptable to be always late, to be always forgetting things. I mean, full transparency here. As an autistic person, I'm not a big fan of lying, but I find that when I do lie. It's because of ADHD.

Mark

Okay, that's interesting.

Pete

Did you put the bins out? Yeah. Yeah, I'll put the bins out. Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. Know and then I'm running outside to put the bins out. You know, is to try to hide just how Startlingly forgetful and disorganized. I am, I will tell people that I've done things when I haven't done them. And then nine times out of ten get caught out in that because I, you know, I'm crap at it. And it's just awful. And To me, that is a kind of masking.

Mark

Yeah, no, it is, I think it is.

Pete

You know, you're trying to hide something. Present the fact that you're super organized and or at the very least, you know. functional.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete

Yeah.

Mark

I know that to have Tam just makes shitloads of lists, just list after list after list.

Pete

I can't do that 'cause I forget to look at the list.

Mark

Well, Tam is the converse of that, of like Tam looks at the lists to Like, remember everything, like, lives by the list. So, yeah, you kind of download your brain into.

Pete

I can't do that. I don't like Feeling of that, I like it all to be up here, yeah, but that's very flawed. I mean, I'm very lucky to be surrounded, you know. My agent, my speaking agent, my literary agent are so patient with Me, which is lovely. But another way that ADHD people mask, I think, is much the same as some autistic people do this, we mask our enthusiasm and our energy levels. Certainly as we get older, because we recognize that our energy levels don't match others. We recognize that our enthusiasm for things don't maybe match other people. So we we deaden ourselves slightly to appear not quite so hyper.

Mark

Yeah, I don't know if my kids are able to do that yet.

Pete

Maybe not.

Mark

Which, you know, again, is part of the charm, I think, for them. And I love that. But I am I have also seen them in situations where they are like right in someone's face and like leaning into them and then describing something with

Pete

Great detail. And you're sitting there going, Oh God.

Mark

Just, you know, just give him a chance. Give him a chance. Calm down. Calm down.

Pete

But I'm like that. Like, if you changed the topic now and you wanted to talk about, you know, like 90s video games. you'd see a change. I mean, I'm enthusiastic about talking about this stuff, don't get me wrong. But if I lock onto an old, really well-established special interest. I get told off for shouting.

Mark

We'll schedule a follow-up podcast about 90s videos on offense.

Pete

But no, I get told off for shouting because I'm really passionate and my voice goes higher. I get. Overexcited, and people like back because I'm quite a big bloke, you know. I'm six, seven, I'm fairly broad, you know, I'm a presence. So when I do that. If you're in a small room with me, I think it can be quite like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, wow, that's that's a bit much, which I can understand, but I can't help it.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you find yourself how I am. Then in certain situations. And how the hell do you do that? You're just like clenching your fist going, I really, really want to tell him that Sonic is shit compared to Mario, but he won't let me. No, no, no.

Pete

Sorry, hang on. Well, no, I I'm actually I'm actually a connoisseur of both. I have no time for this fake...

Mark

Rivalry. The Blur/Oasis.

Pete

Dichotomy. Exactly, yes. But no, you do. You clench your fists. You bite your t you literally bite your tongue. You know, you you you you have to stop yourself 'cause you know it's not acceptable.

Mark

And it's it's hard. It's very hard. And there's also I I find a lot of ADHD people make self-effacing jokes about It like, oh, I'm just scatter brains, you know, or I'm a bit ditzy, whatever it is. It's just like, that's masking. You're trying to just, you're trying to minimize actually what is a serious issue with you.

Pete

Absolutely. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, you're managing expectations as well, you know, but in a humorous, low-stakes way. But unfortunately, you know, experience teaches you that when push comes to shove. you can do all of that and you'll still disappoint. You know, when you forget to do the thing for the fifth time, when you have to reschedule an appointment, you know, you still irritate the people around you, which is. Hard. It's hard to, you know, knowing that you are annoying people is really hard.

Mark

I find another hot topic in the whole thing with masking is Does it seem to be more prevalent in girls? And this is a tricky one because obviously masking is prevalent in male and non-binary individuals and everyone along that kind of gender identity spectrum. But research does suggest that it is more prevalent with females. And I'm interested in why that is. Because it from my perspective, India used to mask a lot. And it's only now we're sort of having a bit more of an insight into her neurotype and crucially that she sees everyone else unmasking as like, great, I'll just crack on with what they're doing. that she's able to unmask not just at home but now at school a lot more. But Indie was the one that I didn't spot. for ages. Well, you you and the rest of humanity.

Pete

I mean, that's how it goes, isn't it? You know, w w women and girls have just flown under the radar for so many reasons. And some of the reasons are due to poor diagnostic criteria and lack of knowledge amongst medical staff. But yes, certainly I I can't speak from experience, obviously, but certainly a lot of the literature does point to the idea that for whatever reason, autistic girls and women are kind of socially forced to mask more than men. I can see it from a male point of view. You know, from my own limited male point of view, I do believe that to be an eccentric man Or boy is arguably more acceptable than being an eccentric girl, especially at school age

Mark

Yeah.

Pete

Like I say, I can't speak for that demographic, you know, but I do think there might be some truth behind that, whereby the pressure to conform or the pressure to. fit in and blend in is is far greater perhaps.

Mark

Yeah, there are definitely outdated societal gender expectations. I think you know that girls are encouraged to play in a different way, you know, of not to kind of do rough and tumble with the boys, but do more imaginative play and they're encouraged to be quieter. girls are called bossy if they have an opinion yeah for example so so again i mean then this is a whole different probably a whole different Podcasts, not just around neurodivergency, but around kind of gender expectations. But I can see why if they try and unmask, and then they're sort of put in a box, not just because of their neurotype. but because of their gender as well, if that's not how girls do things, which is bullshit, by the way, and something that we've never been sort of ascribed to in my family, you know, it's always been you do you do what you want to do, really. But in school, I don't think they're as progressive yet. No, no.

Pete

I've read a lot over the years about and and you know, I know something about the idea of emotional labor and the fact that women Expected to carry the emotional labor of, say, a relationship because the man can't, because well, I say can't, won't, because we're not kind of We're not socialized that way. And I think that it's a bit similar to that. It's like it's this expectation that basically the women, the girls in any given situation, they are the ones that are going to carry the burden of whatever the burden is. And in this case, it's the burden of masking, because masking is a burden, as we'll soon talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's therefore kind of related to that. But, you know, as I said, any. Anyone assigned female at birth who's listening to this who wants to chime in in the comments or whatever on social media, please do because I come at this from a very different perspective.

Mark

Yeah, I am interested. Yeah, absolutely. If you do want to respond with anything, you can Email hello at neuroshembles. com. Nice. Yeah, I'm definitely interested to hear other perspectives of it. Well you don't know this, but when this podcast started which was about eighteen months ago, I thought that India was neurotypical. I described my setup as having two neurodivergents and a suspected neurotypical, I think is how I described her. And through the course of this podcast, my understanding of India has changed and evolved. And so now it's like, ah, she's definitely autistic. Like definitely autistic. And um yeah, it's been quite interesting to see that almost emerging from a cocoon with India in that she's so eccentric now and like wonderfully so at school as well as at home. She's really because we don't encourage masking. in the house. You know, she's often found sitting in a box reading or and there's this thing when she when she goes into school now, she hates wearing coats. There's a big sensor issue about wearing coats. So she now has this brightly colored poncho. which is the thing we've managed to settle on. And then sometimes she goes in a in a fedora as well. So she looks she looks absolutely amazing, but very different from everyone else, but is unmasked. And I think that that's something that fills me with a lot of joy, I think, that she's able to do that now. Whereas before when she was in infant school, I went on a school trip with her and we were at the back of the bus having a laugh and a joke. And her teacher came over and said, Oh, who is this girl? This is not the India that I recognize.

Pete

Yes. Because we were just.

Mark

titting about basically and having a laugh and she was being eccentric and being funny and the teacher was like, Oh, the This is really interesting to see how different she is because she's fully mastered school. So, that was quite interesting to see how different it could be.

Pete

Yeah, I mean, it's the same with me and my daughter, you know, when I'm driving her to school. In the mornings, we have noise-making competitions. We just make these bizarre noises at one another. For pretty much the entire journey. Or we write, we kind of sing nonsense songs at each other. You know, we sing silly lyrics that we make up on the spot. I mean, I've been doing that for years. You know, I've been doing that. That's that's been the thing for me. through my whole life but um but yeah you know we we are we are silly we are very very very silly and I think yeah if if her teachers were to see that they'd be they'd be surprised too because at school she's very She wants to just do things properly, do it right, do it well, you know, be a kind of good example. She's very, you know, very upstanding in the school. And I think they'd be surprised to see how subversive she can be.

Mark

This is it, yeah, it's interesting that I think, yeah, a lot of neurotypicals can't perceive what that unmasking looks like. Yeah. I had like yesterday a really weird thing where I accidentally left a voice message for my brother. So he had a two-minute window into a car journey with me and after I was and he sent it to me and he went Oh, it's really weird. They do transcripts of phone conversations. Right. And it's kind of we've basically spent two minutes trying to work out a good name for a monkey.

Pete

Nice.

Mark

Yeah, that that's it was very heated and it was there were some absolutely fucking hilarious ones, but for someone else to have a little window into that was both mortifying and sort of slightly slightly uplifting to think, Yeah, my life isn't You know, a lot of the time I talk about on this podcast a lot of the challenges, and I think people can think, oh, it's just hard all the time and it's drudgery. It's not, because there are some just moments of absolute unfettered

Pete

Joy, and he's just had a little window into that.

Mark

And I'm quite happy about that.

Pete

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

So, obviously, masking, we can understand why kids do it. and we can understand what they do in order to survive in these social situations. But what we haven't discussed yet is the repercussions of that. That, the emotional baggage that comes with masking.

Pete

Yeah.

Mark

Because it causes significant problems, I think, in the long term.

Pete

It does. It does. Yes. Yeah.

Mark

Significant mental health problems primarily.

Pete

There is the more immediate exhaustion. You know, that can't be understated. You know, it is incredibly tiring. And that Takes its toll. That can lead to burnout, of course, autistic burnout, which is a very unpleasant thing to experience. But compared to depression is at least something that you can work on and you can kind of get get better from. It can also lead to depression though, and depression is far scarier. It leads to depression, I think, because you are very aware of how unwanted you are.

Mark

Right, okay.

Pete

Of how unacceptable your true self is. And even if that's not a conscious thought, it's still there. You know, even for kids, like a knowledge that your own real being is not right in some way.

Mark

It's not acceptable to others. Yes.

Pete

That does a number on your mental health, on your sense of self. On your confidence, on your self-assurance, it really damages all of them. And that's before you even start thinking about the more kind of psychological issue of how it affects your your actual personality.

Mark

Yes.

Pete

Like many autistic adults, for example, talk about not really knowing who they are anymore. Because you've taken on a persona, you've worn a mask for so long that I don't know, you have to strip it back because how much of it is masking?

Mark

I mean, that's been a huge thing for Tam as a late-diagnosed autistic adult. Well, what who. Who actually am I? Yeah, and having to sort of unpick that a little bit.

Pete

Well, I mean, I figured out that so much of myself was actually masking to try and fit in, you know, from my favorite music, to games I played, to places I liked to go. Often it was just a people pleasing response. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be liked.

Mark

So how do you how do you then rebuild that that that's the you know from the ground up from the ground up you know I I expose yourself to All of the music and go quite into the spy skills, it turns out.

Pete

Whoa, yeah, and just allow yourself that. Recently, I've decided I want to write some ghost stories. I'm a writer, I've got an agent, I can do that if I want to, but I had to fight myself to do this because part of me felt like I wasn't allowed to write ghost stories. Now I can't explain that in any greater detail. I just didn't feel like I was allowed to because I would enjoy it

Mark

Oh, okay.

Pete

And I felt a realization that actually part of my masking through the years has been so corrosive to my sense of self. That I now associate things I enjoy with things I shouldn't do, if that makes sense.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete

Not like you know, illegal things or things that are actually bad for you, like drugs or alcohol or anything like that. It's more benign than that. It's just things that I like, that that I just don't feel justified to do because I have to put other people first and I can't trust myself. I can't trust my own wanting to do things because I've been told throughout my entire life that There's something fundamentally wrong with me.

Mark

Like, we can see what the issues are with late-diagnosed autism, and that you're unpicking decades of masking essentially to work out fundamentally who you are. I'm very hopeful that because we have more awareness early on with our kids, and we're advocating for them to be authentic and to follow their special interests and indulge the things that are going to bring them joy. that we're going to have significantly less unpicking to play.

Pete

I hope so.

Mark

Because you're unpicking a year or two. And that it's not going to be such a seismic thing to unpack this loss of self. And I'm hoping that with our kids, the more aware we are early on of masking and the more we give them the ability to remove that mask the less damaging it is in the long term, I think.

Pete

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think so. And obviously there will always be an element of masking going forward as well. But if you understand what you're doing and if you know that that's what it is and you know to be wary of it and to be don't over rely on it, then then it's much safer. You know, it becomes a tool rather than a cage.

Mark

It's code switching again. Exactly. Like, I really like the idea that they can do that and they can employ it.

Pete

Yes, on their own terms.

Mark

Yeah. And I know that Jay, even though he doesn't mask and I'd quite like him to learn those strategies, I think over time I think he will. I've seen sort of little signs of it once. Uh 'cause so like when my parents come over, he will be very polite and he'll talk to them like solidly for like ten minutes and be incredibly charming and then he'll just Fuck off, and we won't see for the rest of the time. But I'm done. But I know he can do it. So that fills me with hope that he's going to be able to do more of that. In other social situations, I think, over time. But it is it is a learned behavior. And I think you can only do that if you have the capacity. And if you are exhausted from masking the rest of the time. Then you don't have the capacity to put it on anymore, which is why our kids very often will explode when they get home.

Pete

Exactly.

Mark

That social exhaustion of like the amount of stuff they're having to hold in their brains and the amount of effort and processing power it takes to get through a day to survive. As soon as they come home, they don't have the capacity to do it anymore. No, no. And that's when it all comes out.

Pete

Yeah. Yeah. It's too it's too much. You know, you you We don't have infinite energy. In fact, you know, we often have quite a lot less, especially if, you know, we're dealing with pain or whatever other co-occurring issues. But yeah, yeah, that that's exactly it. So So yeah, we have to be really mindful about all of this. We have to be mindful of the fact that it is not sustainable. You know, there has to be safe havens where we can go to unmask. We have to have those. You know, we have to have places where we can easily access, whether it's our bedrooms or our car, you know, or anywhere, a room in a school where we can just let it all hang out and be a bit more ourselves. Ideally around other people, but even if it's alone, that's better than nothing.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

So the positives, because I think there are instances where masking is helpful, as we've Discussed, you know, it's a pretty handy self-preservation tool that you can, you know, in your little box of tools that you can then bust out when you need to if you're invited to a Fancy function or something like that, um, or you feel like it's worth doing it for a particular social engagement, then it's good to have that tools. I think the key is learning to unmask rather than learning to mask. It's learning what is safe, where is safe, and what that looks like.

Pete

It is, yeah. If that's possible, you know, for some people, unmasking can be very difficult. For other people, it can be tremendously unsafe, of course. You know, I mean, one thing to always bear in mind is just how much masking keeps us safe, especially if you are in a situation or a setting where being different is even more dangerous than it is, for example, in the UK. You know, like we talk, I mean, I remember talking in my book about the experience of some black American teenagers, you know, being unapologetically autistic in the street and getting shot. For their troubles.

Mark

Right, yes.

Pete

You know, because they were they are part of a demographic that the police view in a very different way. Let's just Put it like that, which means that any behavior out of the norm is seen as threatening. I mean, it shouldn't be, but it's seen as threatening by the police, and they respond the way they do. over there. So so yeah, it's it's a tricky concept because it's it's a lifesaver, you know, and and I think it's important that People who do mask, remember that. Remember not to unmask lightly. You know, same, same in work. You know, if you're at work as an autistic adult. Unmasking could be the last thing you do in that job. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Of course.

Mark

Unless you work for a Dutch company.

Pete

Indeed, yes. But if you're a kid, you know, in a school, then the more you can unmask, the better. And it gets you into some good habits of being then able to unmask. Because I don't know whether I even can anymore. I don't think I can. I think it's too ingrained. But if you learn as a kid to be able to do it, that's going to set you up well for life.

Mark

And and this is the thing that as parents is the one hugely important thing that we can offer our kids is the ability for them to unmask at home. And feel safe and be accepting. And sometimes that's a diff that's difficult. It's difficult because it it manifests in rudeness and aggression sometimes or uh you know emotional or being too full on and demanding your attention to unleash that special interest. But the best thing we can do, and I'm not saying that I do this well all the time at all, but it's just to Give them that space and that understanding to know that that's what's going on. And it's really important for them to do that to be able to. you know, to reconnect with their authentic selves, I think.

Pete

Yeah, yeah. A a non-judgmental space where they know that they will not be viewed poorly. You know, for being themselves, you know, I mean, I sometimes say to my daughter, you know, just please stop. Shush, shush, shush. It's too because, you know, I'm autistic too. I get overwhelmed by the noise. Yeah. But I pref it, or at least I add to it. What you are doing is not bad. I just can't deal with it personally right now. And she can deal with that better than me just saying, stop it, this is bad, you know? Yeah. So it's about just being mindful about how you how you approach it.

Mark

Another positive I wanted to kind of bring to light, which I've touched on a bit, is but just seeing my kids unmasked is an enormous source of joy to me. Because our house is not for the faint-hearted. It's absolutely bonkers. But you walk into a house and you'll find one kid who's upside down, hanging upside down on the gorilla gym reading a book. And one is sat in a box, and the other one is repeatedly smashing their face into the cushions on the sofa because they like the sensory input. And you would walk into a neurotypical would walk into this and go, what the hell is going on here? But they are. full of joy. And it fills me with a lot of pleasure to see my kids like that and to understand where that comes from and to not try and dampen that down. Because I think in the early days of my parenting journey, I'd spent a lot of time almost encouraging them to mask. Being in that situation, stay still, stay with me, look at me, look at, you know, give them a hug, all of that shit. Because I don't want the dissonance. Not about them. It's about me. And that's been the the hardest thing for me to learn as a parent, but also the most beneficial is learning that actually that's my expectations that I need to drop, not theirs. And I think I feel like we're in a place now where we are joyfully weird in our house. And that's it. You know, at Christmas, India said, I want to get a Christmas tree that is wonky. I was like, why? And she went, Because because that suits our family. I don't want like a perfect tree in our house. I was like, Yeah, okay. So I went and asked the Christmas tree seller for the wonkiest tree he had and he had to go out back for it. Didn't give me a reduction in the price, but you know, but we got what we wanted.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, so neurodiversity champions now. This is the section of the podcast where we kind of talk about anyone that we want to champion, who are doing amazing things in the world of neurodiversity. Have you got anyone that you want to sort of draw our attention to?

Pete

Yeah, yeah, I mean I always like to put a shout out to the Autistic Girls Network just with being a parent to an Autistic Girl. Kathy does some fantastic work. It's a full-fledged charity. You know, it provides excellent resources. The website's easy to find because it's just Autistic Girls Network. And yeah, I just always tend to direct people to it because it's it's great for parents, especially parents of Autistic Girls, but also Boys, I mean, you know, it's not totally exclusive. Um, so I would, I would always recommend people take a look at that. It's really, really good stuff.

Mark

Great. Okay, thank you. So, I've got one which I think you'll approve of, and this is Lego. Oh, of course. Because Lego um are very neurodivergent friendly, it it would seem. And was one that we mentioned a while ago is that they created soundtracks for people to listen to when they were building Lego that are sort of calming and they understand You know, the impact that building Lego has on the neurodivergent brain, which is fascinating. You know, like, Tam is really into Lego because it's like creativity. but with a framework, with a structure.

Pete

Absolutely, which is why I like it, yes.

Mark

Yeah, and but LEGO have now released minifigures with Sunflower Lanyard.

Pete

They have.

Mark

Did you know that? That's amazing.

Pete

Yeah, it's part of their real push for true diversity. You know, there are. Yeah, I remember when they first started introducing, for example, Lego figures with wheelchairs, Lego figures with. with crutches and things like that. Now there are Lego figures with cochlear implants and who have different limbs and vitiligo and all kinds of things. They really are very, very hot. And yeah, it's great to see. And the Sunflower Lanyards, it's hard to show autistic minifigures. Yeah, it's visible disability. But the Sunflower Lanyards does it, but they're also including it as part of, because like Lego Friends, for example. Has like cartoons and stuff alongside. And I think they're being quite explicit in those in terms of neurodivergence. Yeah. Not anything else. Horrible thoughts. Lego friends with benefits. Oh no. It's ruined. But yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

So, tiny epic wins now, these are the moments that neurotypicals find, you know, pretty bog standard in their lives, but for us are epic wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins that you can share with us?

Pete

Her thing last week was to advocate for a fiddle toy, you know, uh uh something to mess with. She sh she said to me that uh and and her mum, she said to both of us that um she didn't find it very fair that that even though she's undiagnosed

Mark

she still doesn't get to have these accommodations, which I thought was in school.

Pete

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

Okay, so did she make that petition to the teachers then? She did, yeah, successfully too, successfully.

Pete

She's now allowed to use fiddle toys and She she she believes and she says to me that she thinks it helps her a great deal to have that um and and and was given one which for her is a huge win.

Mark

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, good job. Um I got a tiny epic win, which is that I played Jay at chess.

Pete

Oh, nice.

Mark

And I but he likes chess. He loves playing chess. I've played it at quite a few times, but I won, and it's the first time he ever acknowledged that I'd got checkmate against him. Because normally he'll make shit up, like the king becomes the ninja king and kicks all the pawns over or flies off, or so it's the First time he has ever acknowledged that it's a checkmate, and he walked out the room straight away and then went and told India and Otto that he'd won.

Pete

Right. Okay.

Mark

So one step forward. He didn't admit it didn't admit it to them, but crucially he admitted it to me and to himself that that's what happened. And that was a huge win.

Pete

That's good.

Mark

That was a huge win. It didn't result in any meltdown or anger. He just went off to do something else.

Pete

Makes games far more fun, doesn't it?

Mark

Oh, gotcha.

Pete

You know, until the until you get to that point, it's a nightmare. Yeah, yeah.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, the what the flip moments now. These are the moments that you're the interactions that you'll have within your neurodivergent child where they'll say or do something that completely baffles you and you don't really know how to respond. Do you have any what the flip moment?

Pete

Yeah, a big one for me recently has been the issue of choice regret. Recently. With with having some Christmas money to spend, still kind of kicking about since Christmas from grandparents and things. Whenever I have my daughter and we go to the toy shop in town, there's often a kind of tenor that she can spend. you know increasingly she is finding it more and more difficult to actually choose something to get she is fearful yes of the feeling of regret Like she's terrified of it. Because I think she recognises how bad it feels. And I think she also has something similar to what I've got, which is pity. For the unwanted item.

Mark

Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's been left alone alone on the shelf

Pete

Well yeah, I remember writing when I w when I was writing my first book, What I Want to Talk About, I talked a lot about the empathy for inanimate objects that many autistic people have. And what I've discovered, my daughter seems to be doing at first, I viewed it as a spoil thing, like she was spoiled, like she'd buy something and be Dissatisfied. I'll be like, oh, for goodness sake, you know, you just bought something. Now I realize it's much deeper than that. She'll buy something and then she'll be petrified that she's made the wrong choice. She'll be feeling empathy for the thing she left behind, but she'll also be feeling empathy for the thing that she's got. And I have this myself and this is why I was able to put two and two together because she feels bad for the fact She's not 100% happy with that item.

Mark

Oh, God

Pete

And therefore, whatever it is, whether it's a Sylvanian family's toy or a bit of Lego or a doll or a T-Wife plushie thing. She feels sad for the fact that she doesn't want it as much as she thought she did. So, in her head, that's an unwanted. And honestly, you know, thinking about it, I could burst into tears. It seems heartbreaking, isn't it? It's so sad, but it's also so rich. Yes. And what I mean by that is there's a lot going on there.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete

I think we have a tendency to simplify kids' behavior.

Mark

Yeah.

Pete

And to think that it's driven by very basic instincts when it's not ot.

Mark

That's really interesting because I Otto has this, and I think I probably simplify it a little bit when, yeah, there's probably a lot more going on there than I realize.

Pete

Yeah. So, yeah, that was an interesting thing that really made me think, you know, made me view her behavior very differently, to be honest.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, my what the flip moments from Jay. don't often make me think deeply. They're usually just like, what the fuck are you talking about? So I had a conversation with him about the plans for the day. And as I was leaving his room, he said aloud to himself Hmm, smells like unimportant beans. Okay. So I stopped leaving the room and I went, What does that mean? And he went It's a metaphor for something. I don't know. He just needed to say a thing, I think.

Pete

I don't know.

Mark

Another one is that we went to this kind of playground thing and he ran up to me and he went that slide is so fast it curdled my urine oh that is brilliant that is brilliant

Pete

It's really interesting because my daughter will do that. Like she came up to me the other day and I said something that I liked something. I can't remember what it was. And she just said to me Ah yeah, you fellas, you like that stuff, don't you, you guys? Oh, you're such a you're such a and I was like, what? She sounded like a 1930s guy in a pub. You know, like, really kind of like, oh, yeah, oh, you like that kind of thing, don't you? Oh, bloomin' eck. It was so weird. And I loved it because there is something very unique sometimes about the way that autistic people explore language.

Mark

And I think that's what's going on there.

Pete

They recognize the possibilities and they are running with it.

Mark

And it's really playful. I like that's what I like about it.

Pete

And imaginative and

Mark

Yeah, so my final example with Jay is we went to a a therapy session with him and he we went in there and he's he's been there before but he we walked and he went Ugh, it smells like cigarettes and bad choices in here.

Pete

Oh, that's brilliant as well. That's very good.

Mark

He's like a noir writer, isn't he?

Pete

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Okay, so that's it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Pete, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your experiences. Obviously, I mentioned your book, Untypical, which I've just finished listening to, and it's wonderful. I love it. you know, I think you've sort of pitched it as almost like a way of translating neurodivergent to neurotypicals. And that's a yeah, it's a really it does a really great job of That do you want to just talk about the other books that you've done and maybe the ghost stories that you've got in the pipeline?

Pete

Yeah, well, my first book that came out about six months before Untipical did is What I Want to Talk About, which is all about my special interests as a kid. And each chapter focuses on a different special interest, but it also takes the opportunity to explain autism through a particular lens. So my chapter on dinosaurs, for example, which was a very early special interest of mine Also touches on family, the role of family in an autistic person's life for reasons that you'll understand when you read it. So that's the idea, you know, the whole teaching by stealth. thing is very much going on in that book.

Mark

Right.

Pete

I'm working on my third book currently. That's with publishers now. It's all about education. It's autism and education.

Mark

So waiting to see if publishers want that. Hopefully, I mean you've got a fast fantastic insight into that though, obviously.

Pete

Well, that's what I'm thinking. You know, and I've got the social media following. I don't know. It it pub publishers are funny beings. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. But yeah, I want to move into fiction. So I'm messing around with ideas now for some ghost stories because I love ghosts. That whole world is something that I'm fascinated by. I don't really believe in them, sadly. I used to. I think my belief in them has been shaken by years and years of just not seeing any decent evidence at all. But I love the idea of it. I wish they existed. I deeply wish they existed. And so I want to kind of throw my hat into that genre. A little bit. So that's going to be a way off, though. I look forward to that.

Mark

So, if people want to kind of check out your stuff on your website, I'll include that in the show notes as well. I will also just say a massive thank you to all of the people for listening and for continuing to support Euro Shambles and writing lovely comments on the socials. If you want to email us, as I mentioned before, if you want to send us an email about any topics that you want us to discuss, then you can send that into hello at neuroshambles. com. Or you can contact us on the socials on Instagram, or Facebook, or Threads, or TikTok. That's it. So, all that remains for me to say is have a nice life.