Walking with Neurodivergents | Angie Belcher

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to Neuroshambles episode 10. Wowsers, we made it into double figures. That's fantastic. Thank you for being here. It is as ever a joy to have you, Neuroshamblers on board, and thanks for sending in some of your suggestions and some of your emails of some really good stuff. I wanted to kind of mention an email that I had from Rachel who asked me to do a show on schools Wanting me to do a topic on schools at some point. And that is definitely something that I do want to do. But I'll be honest, it feels like it's too big a thing to have in just one episode. It feels like there's not only too many facets to that, but also there are too many guests that will have some amazing insight into that side of things. So I'm sort of trying to plan it to break it down into different sections. As how to have primary school and secondary school and school avoidance and homeschooling, and there's lots of ideas for sort of breaking it apart into constituent parts. So, look out for those. I'm going to sort of start planning those at some point. Point later on in the year, and I'll let you know when they've got those out. But thanks for the suggestion, Rachel. It's an excellent one and one that I've definitely paid attention to. Now, the rest of the show, we are meeting a new guest. We've got a topic of the week, obviously, and towards the end we're going to be looking at more neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, one or two what the flip moments, and we've also got a new poetry corner which is inspired by this week's topic of the week. So, without further ado, let's crack on.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guests

Mark

I am delighted to be able to welcome a new guest to Neuroshambles and welcome aboard Angie Belcher, who is a comedian, a writer and obviously a parent of a neurodivergent child herself. Welcome to the show, Angie.

Angie

Hello.

Mark

Thanks for coming aboard. The topic of the week this week is obviously about walking, which we'll get onto in a second, but I just want you to explain a little bit about your setup. And what sort of neurodivergencies are you dealing with in your household?

Angie

Well, I own an autistic five-year-old who was diagnosed when he was just coming up to his first birthday, about four and a half. So, but he was diagnosed when he was in nursery, which everyone tells me is quite early. So, he has an EHCP and an autism diagnosis. Yeah

Mark

Okay, and obviously s started school now. And is there any other neurodivergencies in your vicinity or is it just the one.

Angie

So in my family, not that I know of. I don't have any other diagnosis. And I know from the books I've read that it must be there's a connection somewhere. There might be someone else who's got autism in the family, but that I know of that's been diagnosed or that I kind of believe has it. No one else really, so it's all pretty new to us

Mark

So, yeah, thanks for introducing your setup.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

Now, the topic of the week is walking with neurodivergence Because obviously, one of the things that underpins every episode of Neuroshambles is something that would typically be quite straightforward for a neurotypical fam Is for a multitude of reasons never ever straightforward for a neurodivergent household, and nowhere I think is this more typically exemplified than just walking Just getting from A to B and the process of getting from one place to another in a swift, coordinated, and direct manner. It's never that way, is it? And I think one of the reasons I wanted to get you on is because you've actually written a radio play about walking with toddlers. And in the course of writing that radio play, you were sort of comparing notes with other parents of Children, just children, and realize that your experience is actually quite different. Is that fair to say?

Angie

Yeah, so I wrote it, and you know, it's called Walking with Toddlers, and then we produced it. It wasn't till afterwards that I realized that some of the things in there not everyone else experiences. And I found that when I when I go on play dates with our neurotypical friends, so our other little five year olds that are Ulysses is friends with. I've realized that they can just walk in a straight line and we just there we leave the house, then we we just get to where we're going Whereas Ulysses like he's he dances in the world.

Mark

What a lovely way of putting it. Yeah, absolutely.

Angie

Yeah, dances. You never just can walk in a straight line He's always kind of topping over. We the once, yeah, we both ended up on the floor 'cause he literally put his foot in front of my foot and tripped me over and both ended up on the floor. It was really embarrassing. And it was actually a bit in the audio play whereby they both end up on the floor because he wants to wants to just look at the look at the sky. And I think the problem is that sometimes I find I'm not entirely sure whether is that just a five-year-old behaviour or is that an autism thing?

Mark

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, we definitely had that with Jay, who's my eldest, w was w yes, when you first just think Well, this all kids do this. It's like, no, when you actually see them side by side with their peers, then you realize that the behavior is slightly different. I guess. Um my ex-partner Tam has a a theory about um about neurodivergent kids. Um is that neurodivergent kids very often don't tend to walk with their grown-up. They sort of Walk around, that parent is there, it's part of the experience, but they don't feel an instinctive need to kind of walk with them. They're either really far in front or really far behind. That's certainly true of mine. I don't know if you have a similar Experience with Ulysses.

Angie

Yeah, he's either going too fast or too slow, and he's always got a game in his head, so there's always like, oh, we've got to avoid the bins because they've got lasers in them. Or, if you touch the cracks in the pavement, then the lava will obviously kill you. So, we're always like in some sort of game. I feel like we're constantly in a YouTube video really. documentary, like well, you've got to get to the other end of the road, but you can't get deaded by the snakes and and there's all these sci-fi experiences that seem to come alive in his head and we go out.

Mark

Which is a wonderful world to inhabit, isn't it? If you think of it from his perspective, I mean, we've got a a a route that we go on where it obviously crocodiles are there, so we have to jump over this big gap and that's always That's always quite fun. And my theory is that not all neurodivergent kids behave in that way. They don't always kind of walk ahead or. All really far behind, but the kids that do do that are most likely to be neurodivergent. And the more I look out for it, the more I kind of spot it in the world and go, Oh, there's one, you know, one that's miles away from their parents. So it's, yeah, it's. fun little game I play.

Angie

And also he has to sometimes physically like get out of the space. Like at Christmas I took him and his neurotypical best friend to a play. It was an outdoor play at the farm And at s at one point they put a smoke machine on. Ulysses decides that this is a sensory overload. He can bear it. He goes running off. And because he has zero road awareness, so he's really you have to hold his hand the whole time, you know. And the my the neurotypical best friend, I said, Are you gonna be okay sat there while I just go and run after him? And she's like, Yeah, as if like, Where else are we gonna go?

Mark

Yeah.

Angie

Because neurotypicals, if they've been told to sit there and watch a play, they will sit there and watch a play Whereas Ulysses, there's no there's no rules.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's sort of understanding danger is a a a massive kind of part of this, isn't it? they're walking. It's that there's a huge concern of mine when they were younger because it didn't seem that a lot of my kids just saw danger in the world or or kind of instinctively anticipated it. 'Cause I mean, like, firstly, in terms of staying near their parents, I think uh a lot of neurotypical kids will stay near their parents for a sense of safety and Because their parents are protectors and you know, guardians, if you like. Whereas, you know, Jay in particular, he's just off, he doesn't care. We're trailing in his wake because, you know, he probably thinks that he's more safe than we are Um, and I remember a a v a very early experience when Jay was probably about four, and it was probably my first indicator that it that he was a bit Different is that Tam and I were sitting and watching him playing in this big field, and he started walking off and he was walking into the distance. I saw him and I was like, Oh, let's see how far he gets before he realizes that We're not walking with him and panics and runs back to us. And we watched him go, and we watched him go. We watched him keep going. But he got so far away that we actually ended up having to get up and run after him Which is very symbolic of the rest of my life with Jay. It's basically he leads and we have to run along behind him.

Angie

Completely, the amount of times I've been in the park and he's met a friend to explain the kind of autism that Ulysses has got. It's like the no filter, super confident, super friendly, over the top, extrovert kind of autism and he'll meet a friend, be playing for ten minutes, and he'll turn around and go, Do you want to come back to mine? and they'll go, Yeah, and he'll take their hand and start walking them back home, like out the park. Look at this is what I have to watch him like you know, like a hawk. People say to me, kind of go, Oh, Angie, come round, oh, bring the boy, we'll have a chat and I go, We won't be able to chat, you know what I mean? Because I have to watch them all the time. I can't just chill out and have a cup of tea in someone's house while you know, the boy just does what he wants to do. He has to be watched. He can open doors. He's opened like car doors before just to say hello to the random strangers inside.

Mark

Oh, okay. But I mean, it's better than opening the car door when it's inside and it's moving, I guess.

Angie

But he would walk over roads, wa he would just go anywhere. He's not he has no fear. If you've ever been to a party and you like when you're younger and there's always that kind of drunk Friend that glues themselves to you, but they're nothing to do with you, but everyone thinks they are and they're just off their head, and so now you have to look after them because everyone knows that you're with them. But you feel like sometimes that you don't even know them that well because their behaviour is so crazy That's what it's like, I think, being with an autistic five year old.

Mark

Not just not just a five year old. Like my d Jay is ten and he's he's like that. He's he is like trying to get a drunk best friend home because he's he's veering off all over the place and he's staggering into people completely oblivious. It's either that or we've got Otto who is much more anxious and he's the other kind of friend who Is just like really emotional and is just sort of bemoaning the like having to get home and not thinking that they can cope with it. And you have to sort of support them in a very different way. And when you've got two at the same time, it's a flipping nightmare. You've got one miles ahead and one miles behind. It's like, oh, God. But it's just one of the joys, isn't it? I guess. I mean, the thing is about Jay is that he looks like he's a danger to himself. But actually, he's not. He won't. I mean, he's a bit older now, so I think that's a different thing. But he won't run into the road and cause himself a mischief But he will always look like he's about to. So he's confident that he's safe, and I'm confident he's safe. But the traffic thinks he's about to throw himself into the road. So I've often had cars screeching to a halt, and he's just like, look. At him, like, what? I mean, I'm not gonna injure myself. how aware is Ulysses of that kind of thing?

Angie

Well, what is done recently is lull us into  a full security that he actually knows how to cross the road now.

Mark

Right.

Angie

And what can happen is two or three times you'll do the whole mummy, I'm stopping. Oh, mummy, look, I'm looking for cars, I'm doing all the things you told me to. And then the third time, you'll think, oh, I'll just test this thing. And you just walk with him, expect him to stop when you come to a road, and he'll just carry on and walk him. So it's like he's desperately trying to do all the things you're supposed to do.

Mark

He just doesn't remember.

Angie

He's in his own little. Little bubble.

Mark

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, it is, isn't it? And you know, I basically I've I've tried pretending that I don't know how to cross the road and that that that works with Jay I don't know what I'm doing. Tell me when to go because he likes being the expert on it on all things. So that does help. And I think I can, you know, he can cross the road on his own But I don't think I would trust Otto to do that. Because he's very distractible. I think that's a big problem, isn't it? Like being in their own world. um they're they're not aware not only of of the dangers but of people. And that's a I find that slightly mortifying as a parent when When my kids just walk into people. Does Ulysses do that?

Angie

All the time. Today it was raining, so we had an umbrella. It was like a ticking time bomb for how many people he was going to. bruised today on the walk in 'cause he's like um he's normally doing well, but with an umbrella, he's literally not even like looking where he's going.

Mark

I guess 'cause they they don't seem my kids don't seem to have any anticip That person's walking towards me, they're probably going to stay walking in this line. So if I if I stay here, they're going to walk into me or someone's going to move. There's that element of like not being able to anticipate other people Behaviors and other people's movements. And also, there is, I think, this blanket assumption that the world is just going to get out of their way. Jay, in particular, is definitely like this, that he is. He basically sees himself as like the lead character in a video game, I think and that everyone else in the world is at an NPC. They are a peripheral character that uh exists only to enhance his plot line. So if he's walking, he expects everyone to get out of his way, I think And that is, I don't know how I'd teach that out of him. Basically, I'm just going to have to leave him to bump into people.

Angie

When I teach comedy in schools, and like I teach that eight, nine-year-old kind of age range Whenever I tell my schools and I go, right, what's the main skill that you want these kids to have by me teaching them come out? They always say, oh, can you give them some confidence? So at the moment, five-year-olds are full they're full of themselves, aren't they?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angie

And then what happens when they get to about eight or nine is I think they kind of like it we somehow take it out of them, that kind of like, whoa, I can do anything and be anything So in a way, I quite like the fact at the moment that my boy is just like ev everything is a possibility. Wouldn't it be lovely to kind of live like that every day and just think, Yeah, I can do that, rather than kind of going, Oh, I won't be able to do that, or that'll probably go wrong. I love their unnerving confidence and zest for life.

Mark

Well, if he's anything like Jay, that confidence will not go, it will only increase. Jay is absolutely convinced he can do anything. He's slightly too confident, I'll be honest, in that he thinks that everyone else is an idiot and he can definitely do things better than them. So there's a flip side to the confidence issue. But you're right. I mean, I don't think that necessarily.

Angie

You could MP that boy, I reckon then, yeah.

Mark

I fear for the world. Yeah, so I think that having that confid it's that fine line between overconfidence and a complete disregard for the dangers of life. You know, he feels incredibly competent to do anything, so he doesn't really perceive Where that confidence can maybe let him down one day. So, one of the things you mentioned earlier was that Ulysses, you would hold Ulysses' hand to make sure that he doesn't get. into any uh any danger. Um I I envy the fact that he will hold your hand. I tried that with when Jay was young and he was a s it was he was So against it. He would wriggle and try and pull away and shout at me. And like to a passer-by, it looks like I'm abducting him. It's not great. You know, people think I'm trying to steal him or something. And he's my child. He is my child. He just doesn't like me holding his hand. So I'd have to let him sort of, you know, I'd have to basically just. trust him, I guess, from an early age. But Ulysses stays with you, does he?

Angie

We're on that cusp, I think. He started to, well his friends are around, go, Mummy, it's okay, I c I'll I'll walk properly, I promise. I know how to do it. I'll do it. And I have to go, yeah, of course, darling, because you want to kind of give them that kind of boost. Yeah, you trust them. You think they're going to be. And also, their friends are there. but I have to like run behind him and like you know what I mean. And it looks at me trying to pretend that I'm being part of the game when actually I'm just thinking, please don't kill yourself when you come to the edge of this

Mark

You need to be just about far enough to be able to rugby tackle him to the ground if he looks like he's about to dart into the road. Oh, and I have the opposite with Otto in that he wants to hold my hand All the time, but that becomes a bit of a nightmare because he's really distracted all the time. So he'll just stop and I'll just like yank me back. And I'll be trying, I need him to hurry up, and I'm sort of trying to give him some sort of d instructions onto how to you know, how to hurry up. And that's that's another thing. They refuse to respond to instructions like hurry up And I've realized that's not it's because the hurry up is intangible. It's not a quantifiable thing, is it?

Angie

They don't like why should they?

Mark

Why should they hurry up? What is hurrying up? In the mind of a neurodivergent child, there's nothing specific about that, really. So I've realized that I have to be more specific. And if I want to get them To hurry up, I have to say, either very specifically, can you walk twice as fast as you're currently walking you know, something like that. Or you have to gamify it. Like you were saying, like you've got that you've got to basically treat everything like a game to try and get them if you want them to hurry up. So it's Like, right, let's see how fast we can get to that red car. And so then you've got to sort of let them run off and get to that red car and hope they stop. And, you know, mine are old enough now that they will stop. It's fucking exhausting. Having to gamify everything is exhausting. But it's the only way that I can get them to respond to that sort of thing.

Angie

Of thing that hurry up thing, I find that quite interesting. They say that teachers say that that's the most heard thing from parents' mouths at drop off and pick up is that us parents always want to hurry up, hurry up, hurry up. And they're often kind of going, Oh, but your child you know, you'll blink you know, in the blink of an eye, you know, they'll be all grown up and you'll you'll forget this time and yeah, I'm thinking God, it takes Ulysses just like sometimes it takes him a minute just to get through a doorway. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is one of the really annoying things. As soon as he steps through a doorway, he always stops. It's like, can you imagine if adults did that? Like, and you get it sometimes, like, you walk into Aldi. And then someone the person in front of you stops as soon as they've got in through the door, and it's like, Why? Should it and if there's a door there, you understand that this is where people come in. And it's like So what I think uh basically five year olds and old people are very similar in this. They all stop when they get inside a door. I don't know why.

Mark

I've arrived.

Angie

Yeah, I've arrived. Here we are.

Mark

That's what I came out to do. Tick that box.

Angie

Now what?

Mark

Now get out of the fucking way. One of the things that I find difficult about walking with neu uh neurodivergence is judgment from other parents. I don't know if you have this, of people judging the way you're parenting because you have to you have to kind of let them be themselves a little bit more. And themselves is, to a neurotypical family, quite alarming sometimes

Angie

Oh, completely. And sometimes I feel like I've cracked it. Then my boy will create a new kind of embarrassing concept for me, really. I have to then deal with. Again, I feel like I'm in some sort of like fly on the wall documentary sometimes where they're kind of going, Oh, let's see how far we can push it. Um, but yeah, that thing about in terms of walking. So we go to the aquarium most weekends. Love the aquarium in Bristol. I sometimes feel like he he doesn't think he's in an aquarium. Again, he thinks he's in some sort of like host of his own TV show So he'll go round kind of almost the only thing missing is the microphone, kind of telling people talking to people randomly and asking them questions and like telling them things about the Aquarium, because he's been 60 million times, and so have I. I'm so over the aquarium, it's brilliant, it's amazing. The people there are lovely, but we go there a lot, and um, and I find that other other parents. turn round to me and they kind of always look at me like, Why are you engaging with me? Like everyone has to be in their bubble.

Mark

Yes. Yes.

Angie

When you've got an autistic child or a neurodiverse child There's no you break the fourth wall of family. Do you know what I mean?

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Like other families seem to be in their own world.

Angie

And then when you talk to them or your child talks to them, they're like surprised that a five-year-old might ask them a question about the octopus. And the answer is, yeah, the name is Octavia. That's the name, you know, he'll tell everyone that that's the name of the octopus. I quite like that. And some parents are going to go, oh, wow, brilliant. I didn't know that. That's great. So some people look at you like, why are you talking to me? Why is your child talking to me And I have to try and not get annoyed by it, but sometimes I feel like saying, fucking lighten up, do you know what I mean? You're in an aquarium, there's a lot of children here, just be fucking nice.

Mark

Yeah, especially when they're five. Come on. Like five-year-olds are generally quite cute. So, I quite, I'm all for my kids popping other kids' bubbles. India's got this thing at the moment where she waves at complete strangers. And and it's it's it's really sweet and they're they they always engage with her, which is quite nice because she's six. I don't think I'd get the same reaction with the other Too. Because I think the older they get, the sort of people lighten up a little bit less, I think, maybe. But I don't know.

Angie

There's so much to learn from that kind of warmth It's like I've noticed that my even when I'm not with my boy now, I still wave to the driver of the train I'm forgetting that I wasn't with my boy going woo and the train approaches the platform. You wave at the driver. So now I've started doing it when I'm on my own and there's so much joy for it

Mark

never change. The drivers, you know, they're driving me right.

Angie

Exactly. It's just a little tiny I've got this model that I created as part of my work called the inner comedian model. The idea being that comedy is about not only about being on a stage, but it's about bringing joy and warmth To your life in general, and doing little tiny, funny things that cheer you up and cheer other people up. Yeah, the idea being that it enhances our well-being. And so, one of those things I've decided is definitely waving up the trade Train driver and bus drivers. If I wave at everybody just for fun.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. And see, see who waves back. I'd wave back, no problem. But it's those sort of more serious encounters where I feel I feel really kind of judged by other parents when when their child you look around and You notice what other kids are like with their parents all the time. You will see children walking with their parents and holding their hands without trying to get away and almost sometimes having conversations. Just having a chat with their parents, and you overhear it sometimes. It's like, what magical realm do you live in when this is sort of so easy? And so, I mean, it seems lovely. And then I look at mine, and one's halfway up a tree. The other one's fishing around in a bin and I've lost track of the third one. And um, you know, sometimes you do sort of go, Oh, I wish I wish my life was a little bit more like that. But are you also, you know, on the flip side? I think some Know some kids need to lighten up a bit. They need to be a bit more fun, a bit more playful. And mine definitely have that.

Angie

Exactly. I think there's some people that just think children should be just. not, you know, seen and not heard and not kind of like it's like I I I was on the I'm a big bus user, I use public transport a lot. So at the weekend we'll go out. So when we go to the crown, we'll go on the bus. And the amount of times I've seen parents with children and telling them to shut up and be quiet on the bus. And I'm like, no, you should sing on the bus. You should play games. Ulysses gets the whole bar, the one's got the whole bus to play Ice By. And he also checked his voice 'cause he's five as well. It's five years old stage at that. I don't have an inside voice. Everything is like this all the time kind of thing What I do is I always feel like my work in public is always about distracting him and engaging him and getting him so that he doesn't have a meltdown and so that he doesn't uh Get you know, get annoyed, get some get anxious, doesn't feel like he can't cope. So I'm constantly preventatively kind of going, Look at this, let's play ice bio, let's sing the song, and I see that as my job. Whereas other people see their job as flattening their children and making them quieter. Yeah. And I don't I want to bring them out, not put them back in.

Mark

But I'm really interested in that because I think I think they do that with their kids because the kids listen And so it becomes about how they want their kids to behave. Where it's it isn't like that if you've got a neurodivergent kid. If I tell my kids to shut up or be quiet they don't listen because they can't they don't realize that they're being noisy or they don't they I don't think they see that they're doing anything wrong. So they wouldn't really instinctively go, Oh, yeah, sorry, I'm going to annoy people. And so in turn, that's taught me to just Let that slide and go actually. No, I'm quite happy for my kids to be themselves as long as they're not, you know, like in people's faces. And, you know, I do get a sense sometimes that people bristle when my kids. are like a bit near them or something like that and I will try and gently shepherd them away but I won't tell them to shut up because that's you know that's who they are and they're expressing them. themselves.

Angie

That's the thing about public transport is that you are in people's faces because you're up close and personal. And the amount of times I've been on a bus and like we've had it's been packed. and no one's moved out of the way so we can sit down and stuff and we ever had to like st you know, stand up with them, which is so hard. And I also want to tell all bus drivers in Bristol to just wait until their their young passengers have sat down. I think people who train to be a bus driver should spend an afternoon going out on public transport with an autistic five-year-old and a shopping bag And try and balance yourself and your child upstairs on a bus. But anyway, this is not about buses today. Sorry.

Mark

That's another episode, Angie. Don't worry about that. One of the. The times where I feel probably the most judged by other parents is when we're out and about is waiting at traffic lights. That, that, when you look at other children at traffic lights, they're just standing there. It's baffling to me. They just wait. They're waiting. They literally see they see the red man and they go, Oh, I'll just stand like that guy. And they stay still and hold their parents' hand, or just that's It's they're just waiting for something to happen. My kids can't wait. They don't have that capacity because the ADHD definitely plays a part in this as well, in they're constantly on the go So I've got like, you know, one of my kids is swinging around the traffic light like a pole dancer. I've got uh an another one just sort of like jumping up and down. Um and the other one has has discovered that there's a thing in traffic lights. I don't know if you know this. For blind people. On the bottom of the traffic lights, there's a little thing that moves when it's ready to cross. So they're just like they're fighting to get there. And like, my kids are sprawling all over the place, and other parents. I just feel the sort of sense of judgment that my kids are not behaving as they would want their child to behave. I don't give a hoot, um, about that, but I d I know that, um, other parents do. And it's sometimes a little bit mortifying when it gets a bit out of hand and they're bumping into people.

Angie

Yeah, I can remember the first time I saw again, we were at nursery and a friend's daughter was on their like little tricycle thing and they were allowed to kind of be in front while we had a conversation. And I was like, I couldn't relax. I was like, w w w what about the bike? And they're like, Oh, they'll just stop when they come to the end and it's like But how do you know they'll do that? Oh, because that's what they do. And it's just, yeah, it's weird. Again, you're right. It's only when you see kind of neurotypical children that you kind of go, Oh So they just do what you tell them to and they they sit still.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, and they remember that instruction for the next time. It's not like this is not just a one time instruction. This is like an every time instruct And that sticks in their head. That's the what kind of magic do you use? I mean, the other thing that I get is, particularly with Jay, who is undiagnosed PDA. I don't know if you're familiar with PDA at all. For the listeners that don't know, we've talked about it quite a lot. It's pathological demand avoidance And it's a whole different world of basically. Or the other way of phrasing it is pervasive desire for autonomy, which I really like. That makes perfect sense to me. It much, it's more accurately describes Jay's sort of take on the world. He wants to be autonomous and he doesn't want people making decisions for So again, when you're kind of walking and you need to get from A to B, and everyone knows we need to get from A to B, we're going from here, we're walking to school, right? This is something we do every day. It's nothing new. You know the routes. Sometimes I'll give you an option of which route to go down just to mix it up a bit because I know that novelty is really important to kids with PDAs and making things a bit more different. And there was one time where He just stopped. He was like, I'm not going anymore. I'm just sitting down. And he said he got a stitch in his thigh. And I've tried many times to explain that you can't get a stitch in his thigh But what do I know? I'm not a doctor. I mean, you know, it's not a thing, just to be clear. It's definitely not a thing. But to Jay, it's a valid reason for stopping what he's doing. Because he can't carry on. So he sits down on this wall, and I'm walking on with the other two. And all of a sudden, I turn around and he sat down. Then he's got his face set to grumpy mode. And I know that that means We're not going anywhere until we resolve this. So I have to then get the other two, who've already run ahead, to come back. We have to go back. And I'm aware of time at this point as well. I'm going to school, so there's a very specific time that I need to get There. And I also know that Otto gets really, really anxious if he knows he's going to be late for something. It freaks him out. Incredibly dysregulated, and he's now got his eye on the time. And Jay has just sat there. It's also, India has an issue with not wearing appropriate clothing for The weather, so I've got a let it's freezing cold, and she's shivering. So it's like I've got to get her inside as well. And Jay's just sat there not moving. As a parent, what do you do at that point? Because I've got three competing needs. I've got to work out the best approach for this. And Jay was like, I need to have a rest. So I was like, okay, I will give you 30 seconds and then. Will go, and we waited 30 seconds. They were like, No, I need longer. I was like, Oh, for God's sake, well, we'll just walk on. I was like, We'll leave you here. He can actually walk to school on his own, so it's not, um, you know, I wasn't just abandoning him to his fate But I was like, if I just take this demand out of it and we just walk on, we'll be fine. We started walking, and then about 10 seconds later, he sprinted past us It's like, that's that stitch was not a natural thing, was it, Jay? You were just fucking with me. And it is just this sort of like, it's. it isn't just a case of getting from A to B smoothly. There is always this like constant negotiation and sort of just having to manage the whole process, especially with you kind of multiple different competing needs. And that is just just Exhausting.

Angie

And it's too late to just kind of leave them now, isn't it? And just start a new life in another country.

Mark

Well, no, it's not, you know. We've gone past that, haven't we? We've gone past that. I'm quite fond of them to the fair you know um yeah mine's all right i like him i like keeping him around but it is um doesn't make it any easier another thing is like you you kind of touched on this earlier about people whose whose kids just just do what's expected of them in that sort of Of that sense, is that hanging out with people who don't understand that that's not the case for all kids? So, like, I met out with some friends recently, and it was really lovely. I'd not seen them in ages, and we met up. And um they texted me like the next day and went, Oh, it's it was really fun. Let's meet up. It'd be really good. Let's get our kids together. We'll go for a lovely long walk And I'm already going, no, no, no, this is not an option. We'll go for a really lovely long walk in the countryside and then we'll go and have a pub lunch. And my response was, You haven't yet met my children, but I would give it about thirty seconds before you realize what an absurd suggestion that is. I can't imagine anything worse because I there there have been a number of times where we've tried it, where we've tried to sort of coordinate this meetup with friends. Because kids, hey, our kids are a similar age, and let's go and, you know, let's go and do a thing. We'll go for a walk, and it'd be really nice. And typically, Jay will torpedo that, and he'll decide that he doesn't want to do it, and he'll just Be really grumpy, and he'll either, like I say, be sitting, sitting, being grumpy behind, or he'll be running far ahead, and we're like, literally worried that he's gone into the woods and we'll never see him again. And we've had to abort a lot of different kinds of family days out, and we just kind of realized that we can't do that with other families anym

Angie

You can't leave us on, so you're just going to have to divorce your friends, Mark.

Mark

No, we've basically worked out which ones we can and can't do that with. It turns out that we can't do that with many. many, many families. And that's okay. That's not that's a thing that we do as a family. We don't have to do it with other families. And we're not we're never going to be ramblers, let's face it.

Angie

But that's the great thing, though, when you find a friend who's got neurodiverse kids that just kind of understands you. You're like, right, you're our new friends. We can go and do stuff. And you know, this kind of like there's confidence in numbers, isn't there? So you know, you can form one big super family. I also really, really love going out with the um you know, like at the weekend we did Incredible Kids, which is an organisation for families of Same kids. We do loads of stuff with the Bristol Autism Project who put on free stuff for families of autism Autistic children.

Mark

Oh, wow.

Angie

So, we've done a lot of those kinds of things in Bristol and really enjoy it. And again, because you kind of feel like, like, we once went to watch a film and it was mad. Can you imagine like all new autistic, neurodiverse? six year olds, six to eight year olds, say in a in in the in the watershed or watching this film and all just kind of doing their own things. It was crazy. It becomes kind of a white noise after you it just seems so normal. But I remember thinking, Oh, this is great, 'cause if we'd been in a just a mainstream, you know, event, a cinema showing, we'd have to have left or up so many times, oh, in the end I'd have been the annoying one, do you know what I mean? 'Cause it's like picking your back to up battles isn't a good time 'cause if you spent too much time going, Shush, be quiet Do this because that's you know what I mean? Because he's just been really loud, and I don't want to talk to everyone about the film, you know, halfway through. You've then become part of the problem, so it's all about picking up paddles and kind of going. Whereas the Bristol Autism Project, they have amazing stuff. free as well, which is brilliant. It's really easy to sign up. And they have play workers there and it's just nice to experience something with other families who've got autistic kids. It's just a different feel.

Mark

As you were saying, it's kind of safety in numbers, right? And that that's the that's the nice thing, is that if you we do end up going out with a Another family with neurodivergent kids. My kids aren't going to be near me most of the time, but I know that they'll be near someone, and that person will understand. The kids and they will understand how to, you know, how to approach the kids in that sense. Like, uh, what I don't want is for them to, you know, if you if you're with a neurotypical family and That your kid is doing some, you know, sort of going slightly off the rails or whatever. They will talk to them in a neurotypical way. They'll say, get down, shut up, stop doing And that's not gonna work. That is not gonna wash me, might not. Um, so so having that kind of freedom to know that your kids are around people who are a bit more understanding and a bit more kind of um experienced at dealing with neuro urgency is defin Definitely takes a lot of the pressure off and a lot of the judgment away from it, I guess.

Angie

Yeah, and the thing that worked a lot for us when he was a little bit younger was: we've got to go home because there's a dragon on the roof always were. I'm just coming out of that being feasible at the map at the moment.

Mark

But so what would happen when he arrived to find that there wasn't a dragon on the roof?

Angie

Well, it's because the dragon has gone now, you know, so it was there No, it's stormed. We did the wet thing. Dragon's gone off for its dinner.

Mark

I like it, it's nice. One of the things that we we did quite a lot when they were little as well, which was quite quite fun was going to a national trust property because there's just like big grounds so you'd go you'd go somewhere and they'd they'd just be Like it's usually attached to a wood or some kind of big gardens and stuff, and then there's the house. Never go in the house, not with the neurodivergence. Stay clear of the house and the expensive wallpaper, guys. That's my advice for you. But and even if they want to go in, go, No, no, no, we don't want to do that. Let's go back into the woods again. Just keep them out in the wild. But having that kind of sense of space and that freedom to roam is great. However, you will come into contact with people who detest everything about your children because because it's full of a lot of, um, older people who may not be aware of kind of Neurodivergency and may not be very well versed in it. And my children are noisy and disruptive, and that's not why they went there. You know, they went there to look at the gardens and to

Angie

you know, to to yeah, I remember us running around again, just to say let you know, Bristol Autism Project gets given, um, like, you know, kind of quiet days whereby it's just their members who can go around those Of properties, so do check them out if you're listening at home. Um, but I remember us running around a National Trust pace once with a sword, which is kind of kind of normal, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, with a sword.

Angie

and some bloke coming up to Ulysses and saying, You can't have that, it's dangerous and taking it off him, which then led to a meltdown. And it was just like Just really weird. Also, design just couldn't unless a child was going to seriously. I thought it was like a pretend sword, by the way. It wasn't an actual pretend sword.

Mark

You didn't arm your child in a nest or children.

Angie

Oh damn, we didn't take any um anything out that could maim anyone with us. It was just a plastic sword and um he he got took it off him. I said, You can't have that, I'll take someone's eye out or something and took it off him. Because you can't just take things off children. I don't know why anyone would do that anyway. Unless I thought a child was about to their life was in dang I would never touch anyone else's child without anything. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

Exactly. And I get that my kids are probably quite alarming to people who are not used to That sort of behaviour or that sort of energy, you know, because they will run at full speed in very narrow gaps. That's the thing that they like Like to do. And to some people, it feels like they're running at them, you know, that they're going to take them down or something. So I've a number of times heard pensioners Shrieking as my child approached them. They already know they're going to dodge out of the way or whatever. They're not going to take them down, but they don't know that, so they're alarmed. And I get that. But then I end up having to kind of shuffle behind them and go, I'm sorry. you know, I'm sorry about them. And you know, that's again where I guess the sunflower ya lanyard may come in handy sometimes to warn them that they're

Angie

behavior is likely to be a one. I've not used it yet. When do you use yours? If you're going out for the day, will you use it? It depends really.

Mark

I like airports. That's always good to do that for special assistance and stuff. And yeah. to be honest, I try not to go to places where that's needed any more. But there there's sometimes when you can't avoid being in crowded places uh and you know that your kids might be dysregulated, I find that's quite useful. As a sort of heads up, by the way, this behavior is not caused by them being rude or being naughty, it's because of neurodivergency, and it does help. I think people are a little bit more kind of Understanding.

Angie

Because I feel quite get you backstage at rock concerts as well. Haven't tried it yet. It's a good shout. You should try that. If you go and see, like, you know, you go and see Coldplay or Keeno or something, just wave it and say, Look, my child's having a meltdown. 'Cause I really want to go and see Chris.

Mark

See, Otto does love music, so maybe I could use him as a as a way in. One of the other sort of things that frustrates me about walking with minority Urgent kids is that they don't respond to urgent instructions very quickly. There's always that sort of processing delay with mine. With Otto in particular, Jay's usually in his own world, so he won't really hear it, it'll just be in his own Own head. But particularly when it comes to dog poo, have you had that? Look out for the dog poo. They completely ignore me. I'm like, trying to, because they're not near me, so I can't just grab them. And the amount of times that Otters just walked straight through the dog poo, a few more steps than on what dog poo? It's like it's gone Now it's ready. It's too late. Brush your teeth.

Angie

Brush your teeth. Brush your teeth. Brush your teeth. Can you brush your teeth? And it's that idea about, you know, wanting to Tell your neighbours that when you hear me shout at my kids, it's because it's the sixth time I've said brush your teeth.

Mark

Yeah, and it's they have a lot of that of having to kind of give them a heads up. So when you're walking with them And I found this like you've got to be, you can't be looking so far down the road to anticipate any kind of potential you know, stumbling blocks or or any you know, if someone's walking uh towards you and you're in a narrow bit of path and you want them to move to the left so that there's they they're out of their way Instead of sprawling around and spinning around all over the path, I have to warn them way in advance. Stay on the left, guys. Stay on the left. Come on. Stay on the left. And you you know, it's um So you're kind of you're always on edge, I think, to a degree. Um, well, I am, I guess, you know, this is something I reflected on in the last episode. Um, I like I am constantly hyper aware of not uh kind of annoying other people. It's it's something that's ingrained in me and it it is gradually being beaten out of me by my kids because I've started to care about it less and less. But d deep down there is a the part of me that doesn't want to inconvenience anyone. So I'm constantly on edge trying to make sure that my kids are sort of Following the rules, or staying where they're supposed to be, or sort of giving people the space that they need.

Angie

And I don't know if you kind of do that, but I don't think I do it out of obviously, I don't want to annoy people. But I think the reason why I do it is because I want to be a good role model I'm always trying to role model the behaviour that I think is good behaviour to have, that'll be of use to you in the world, and also which will make you love more and be loved more. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's more about saying, this is what we do. We make sure other people are okay. We make sure other people can get past. We make sure other people are all right. We make sure we're okay, but we also make sure other people are okay.

Mark

And I think that's where I come from.

Angie

And I know as a child I was brought up being told to like always move out the way, make sure other people have got space.

Mark

Yeah, and I've tried that. Believe me, I have tried that so many times. But it they can't they don't interpret other people's intentions. If you think about it, you know, if you Peaked about.

Angie

They have no empathy, do they? You know the idea that empathy, you start developing empathy when you're seven years old and you don't stop developing it till you're about 25.

Mark

Right, okay.

Angie

So, mine hasn't got any empathy yet. Yours have probably just started to get a little bit of empathy. And so that's why, because th it's not in their brains yet.

Mark

Yeah, I mean it's it's yeah, it is quite interesting that they can't really see p things from other people's perspective. And I but I don't think necessarily that means that J Jay in particular d doesn't feel like he has a lack of emp empathy. I think he can see things from other people's perspective, but he doesn't care because he's going to do what he's going to do. Doesn't really matter. Obviously, I want to look at the you know, with the With the Neurochembles podcast, I like to look at the positive side of things. And there are, you know, walking is an invaluable tool for our kids. It's not, you know, when you're. When you're trying to get from A to B, it is frustrating because they will be all over the place a lot of the time and they'll they won't really pay attention a lot of the time and they'll bump into People and that all of the fun challenges that that presents, but also it's a really valuable tool for my kids to just burn off energ just going for a walk is actually if you've not got an agenda, just going for a walk's really good. We we had a dog for a while and that was quite good 'cause it was like, oh, well, we gotta take the dog for so everyone came and that was really nice because we had a spaniel and and She was absolutely bonkers, and the kids really picked up off of that energy. And everyone was just scattering, just running. We'd just go to a big, wide open space, and they'd just run to the far corners of the wood. And we'd eventually get everyone to do a headcount on the way back, make sure we got everyone. Also, taking them for a walk when they're dysregulated is really important. Important, I think. You probably have this with Ulysses because he's five as well. So, and imagine, you know, if he's in a situation he doesn't want to be in, you need to physically get him out. out of that space.

Angie

Yeah, we love going for walks. I mean walking is great. It's one of the only activities that uses all your senses at once, which is why it's so good for you. It's supposed to like make you live forever if you go for lots of walks. And I say that's particularly good. for patients who've got dementia as well, that it kind of like all your senses are being stimulated when you go for a walk. It's amazing. The problem I have with users at the moment is sometimes is getting to that age now where you go, I don't want to go for a walk, I'm too tired, I'm too tired I don't want to go. And then, after he's been in the woods, in Lee Woods, for fifteen minutes, he you know, and after a while it's time to go home, he's like, I don't want to go home, I don't want to go home, this is great, I'm not going to go home. But I can never get him out, and then when I'm out, I Can't get back home again.

Mark

But you can you can get him out by telling him there's a dragon in the woods.

Angie

The dragon, yeah, the dragon. I think we're getting a bit too old for the dragon one. I'm gonna have to find a new one. Yeah

SECTION INTRO

Poetry Corner!

Mark

So Poetry Corner has been inspired by the topic of this week, which is obviously walking with neurodivergence. um yeah, here it is. When walking home from school one day, my boy was miles ahead. He sees no need to walk with me, so he races off instead. Now, I've tried to force comply. And to keep him close at hand, but he's got his own agenda, so he vetoes each demand. Now, to some, it seems quite reckless not to keep him by my side, but I've learned to pick my battle, so I choose to let it slide. You see, my young boy is autistic with acute ADHD, and behaviour that makes sense to him seems odd to you and me. There was one day in particular that emphasised this Plight when both he and I were out and pausing at a traffic light. Whereas most stand still at crossings, waiting till the light turns green He can't contain his urge to move. He's like a jumping bean. He flaps and squirms and fidgets, twirling round the metal pole, And to uninformed observers he has zero self control I see this mother standing with her child, who's calm and quiet, And I know she's judging mine, who's like he's midway through a riot I see her shake her head at him and pull her child away, Cause his limbs are wild and reckless and her kid might catch astray. Now, although she's not said anything, I know just what she's think Thinking, as she gives the side-eye to my boy, who looks like he's been drinking. She thinks my child is naughty, his behaviour's out of hand, and he needs some firmer boundaries from a dad who's in command He wouldn't act like this with her, behaviour left unchecked. She'd whip him into shape and teach him how to show respect. My parenting's the problem here. I need to take control. I shouldn't try to be his friend. That's not a parent's role. And I feel her judgment keenly as it dents and wounds my pride And although my boy's oblivious I die a bit inside, Perhaps she's got a point, and I should choose to interject. Because by not correcting him, it's tantamount to gross neglect If I grab his hand and force him to stand close to me and wait, maybe he can learn good manners and he might cooperate I need to teach compliance so he'll blend in with the crowd. His behaviour won't be frowned upon, and he can make me proud. And by not insisting he conforms to social expectations, I'm insuring he will fail at interpersonal relations. Maybe I'd be better, reining in his self expression. If it's not curtailed, it's narrowing his choices of profession. You see, if I really loved my boy, I'd step up to the plate. I'd nip this in the bud and teach him how to integrate. As I stand and muse on how my parenting is a disgrace, the lights turn green, and the most enormous Grin engulfs his face. He skips across the road with glee, Arms raised towards the sky. And I laugh while trying not to catch the sour-faced mother's eye I hear a tut, her disapproval once more underlined As she quickly shuffles past me with her child in tow behind. And although he shows compliance, making sure he's with his mum I just can't detect a spark in him. He seems so bloody glum. And I'm sure his mum's delighted that he's calm and smartly dressed, but in starching out his character He's lost all interest, and although I can't be sure, I thought I saw him sneak a glance At my boy, who's now stood on a stump and doing a chicken dance And maybe it's projection, but I sensed an envious twinge of my son's unbridled daftness that would make his mother cringe. And I realize that I'm the one being taught a less Lesson here. I mean, just who am I to wish his manic side would disappear? Now, it might not please all parents, but It really pleases me That his infectious effervescence is on show for all to see. And by all means be judgmental if it makes you feel okay. But forgive us if we give no shits as we do things our way. Because while you stand there tutting at the way he seizes fun, I'll be smiling as he fizzes on towards the setting sun.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

So this section is the it's not all rubbish section, which is basically looking at the the more positive side of Parenting neurodivergents. So, one of the well the first section in this bit is the neurodiversity champions, and you've just like reeled off quite a few great projects by the sounds of it. So, is there anyone you want to give a shout out who's particularly kind of good.

Angie

Yeah. I I don't know whether other cities are this good, but in Bristol we have a plethora of different things. So there's the Bristol Autism Project and Bristol Autism Support So Bristol Autism Project is the one that does amazing free activities in the half-term in the summer break. You sign up with them and they have like play workers that are there. So, obviously, you're still there with your children. But often, like I said, if it's a national trust property or something like that, they'll have a a smaller quota, like they'll hire it out for the weekend.

Mark

A takeover event at a national trust.

Angie

you know, so it's not going to be as busy. They'll also set up some arts and crafts ups there and it's just an opportunity for you to be around parents who kind of give it

Mark

Yeah.

Angie

And Bristol Autism Support is more a movement for campaigning, for supporting people who are going through the process of maybe getting EHCP or a diagnosis. and they have a people that work there to help reach out to parents who need some support. And then Murmuration is a community of getting parents of disabled children together to um ha there's a six week course you can go on which is brilliant whereby you do arts and crafts, you do yoga and you talk about, you know The real struggles as well as the triumphs of parenting disabled children. And of course, parents of neurodiverse children are welcome there as well. That's a lovely course, and I really enjoyed it. I made some great friends, which I've still got today.

Mark

Fantastic.

Angie

But there's loads of other organisations that I'm part of. I also want to a big shout out to Flora. Flora is the council's way of getting you respite care or one-to-one worker so that your pet your children can access stuff in the school holidays, mainstream. outdoor um activity clubs or out of school clubs. So like I say, uh so in the in the summer, uh, he got a one to they paid for him to have a one to Ulysses to have a one to one support worker to go on circus weeks and theater weeks and all that kind of stuff.

Mark

Great. Well, I mean, I'm going to put a link to all of that stuff in the show notes so that people can click onto it and investigate more. The other neurodiversity champion that I wanted to mention Is just one that we talked about earlier, which is the National Trust, are actually really good in that they have an essential companion card, so that if you have a disabled kid, then obviously if neurodivergency is included in that, then you can get a kids membership, I think, for ten pounds and then they get a free essential companion card. Uh so you can basically go and you know for a year you can you can go to an Astral Trust property with Your kid, and you know, go and appall the pensioners there. And yeah, that's that's a really good way of doing it. And also, it's not just a card that you don't have to name the essential companion, so if you, if you, you know. Want to give it to grandparents to go and do it? That's a nice way of doing it as well. So, shout out to the National Trust for that.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

You know, in our setup, there are things that could seem like a tiny thing to an audio. Typical family, but for us, it's like an epic win. I don't know if you've got any tiny epic wins that you wanted to kind of bring.

Angie

I have, yeah. So, um It's a classic trait that autistics are picky eaters, and Unice has been very picky Just getting him to eat any normal food is really difficult. And then a couple of weeks ago, we were in a restaurant and I went, Well, I was like, Let's go for lunch. We'll have how about some chips? Knowing full well he won't eat any chip He won't have them. And if I do order them, they'll sit there and then I'll eat them. But I have to keep trying because today's the day when he'll eat a normal food, you know what I mean. and um we went and we ordered chips and he ate them. It was in T F I Fridays in Cabot. I c I was c I was crying, I was literally crying, and I was telling them I was trying to tell the waitress how happy I was and why, and she must have thought I was nuts, like But you ordered some chips and your child ate them. What is she couldn't? She's smart. But I was like, you don't understand. This is the most amazing thing ever. And it means that you buy chips from me and he'll eat them. It'll eat a normal food. This is just amazing. But to if I'd have told anyone else this, they'd be like you give your cut child chips. It's like you don't understand this is a good thing.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Angie

A lot of autistic, what they do is they like they like things to be regularly shaped most food is irregularly shaped, and that's what the problem is with Ulysses, I think.

Mark

Yeah, nice. No, I'll definitely celebrate that tiny with you. That sounds fine Fantastic.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip!

Mark

The final section of this is the what the flip section, which is where your kids will do or say something. That completely flabbergasts you? Have you got any kind of moments where Ulysses has absolutely stumped you in terms of how to respond?

Angie

Well, last night, so he's got a sixth birthday coming up. He's having a magic show, he's having a live rabbit. So last time I was doing the invites, they've got rabbits on them. And I turned to Ulysses, I went, There's something special coming to your party. There's a special animal coming. Can you guess what it is? And he's like, no. And I'm like, look at the invite Look at the invite, and he's like, I don't know. I'm like, it's a magic show. There's a picture of a rabbit. You like rabbits. Can you guess what animal is going to come to your party? And he said, Is it a giraffe? How can I get giraffe into a community hall in Eastern?

Mark

Well, to be fair, you appear to have access to dragons.

Angie

So that's a problem, yeah. I've made him think now that I can access any animal, real or medical. I've got special powers.

Mark

Um, one of my uh what the flip moments this week was just it was quite nice actually. Um I overheard Otto talking to Jay and Otto went, D Daddy is definitely not autistic. And I overheard and I chipped in and went, What makes you say that, Otto? And Jay then jumped in and went, Because you're weird. Thanks for that. Thanks, Jay. The other one again was from Jay. It's been really cold lately. I don't know if you've noticed. But Jay is insisting on wearing shorts to go into school. And um and I said, Why? I mean, you can wear them, that's okay, but why are you wearing shorts on such a cold day? And he went, Yesterday I wore trousers and I ended up being hotter than a cow wrapped in a burrito and put in an oven. Get away with words, my boy. Okay, I think that's the I think we've uh I think we've We've done justice to walking with neurodivergence. So, um, well, one thing I wanted to say before we go is just to for people to check out walking with toddlers, which is the radio play pilot that Angie's recording. Just tell us a little bit more about that, Angie.

Angie

So, yeah, so I'm comedian in residence at the University of Bristol, and one of the commissions was to create an audio play. Me and Ellie Rycroft wrote it together, and she's a lecturer in theatre. And we both had children at the same age. And so, what this is, is it's we've got our main character who's got a child who's about to go for a walk, but the whole time they're listening to a podcast called Monara's Mindful Mummies Podcast. And it's all like a little bit of an idealistic way in this podcast of how to kind of engage in nature within the child. And then you get the reality of the mum going out for a walk with the child and the craziness that that ensues. So little fifteen minute listen. So please have a listen to it and give me any feedback. My plan is to get it on Radio 4. That would be great. It's only Radio 4.

Mark

Yeah, it was really fun. Definitely ring some bells with neurodivergent kids as well.

Angie

Yeah, yeah, please go and watch Walking with Toddlers. Listen to it rather. So, and Mark will put that in the comments section. Thank you.

Mark

No, you're more than welcome. Thank you to the audience for listening. I will just do a quick kind of shout-out for the socials. We are on Facebook, Instagram, and Reddit and Threads. So please feel free to kind of follow us there. Please spread the word if you've got anything that you want to talk about, or if you've got anything to add to what we've talked about, and you want to, or if you want us to discuss anything else, email us at hello at neuroshambles.com com and hopefully I can include Some of that in the next show. But thank you very much. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.