Understanding meltdowns and what we can do to help | Lisa Galley

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 61 of Neuroshambles. Thank you so much for joining me yet again, Neuroshamblers, as we take a deep dive into another knotty facet of raising Neurodivergent Kids. Weirdly, it seems like I've saved up a load of these big topics for the end of the season, doesn't it? But it's not by design, I promise. That's just the way that it happens to have panned out. Anyway, as well as that, I'm also going to be looking at some neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, and yet more what the flip moments. So, in the immortal words of Marvin Gaye, let's get it on.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So this week's guest is a Neuroshambles favorite who I've been really keen to get back on because she has trodden the rocky road of raising multiple neurodivergent kids and has emerged the other side as a beacon. Of positivity and support to other parents. Not only is she a former speech and language therapist, she's also an autism family consultant and an Author with a new book coming out very soon. Very exciting. So I am delighted to be able to welcome back It's Lisa Galley. How are you doing, Lisa?

Lisa

Thank you. I'm good, thank you. It's amazing to be back for third time.

Mark

Third time, yeah. One per season. We ration you to, apparently. Not by design. But yeah, that's just how it's worked out. You've been very busy working on your book.

Lisa

I have, yeah, yeah. So thank you for having me. It's really delightful to be here. It's always a treat to chat to you and have a have a bit of a giggle along the way.

Mark

Lovely to hear. For any Neuroshambles listeners who don't know about you and your setup, can you just give us a quick recap of the neurodivergencies at play in your household, please?

Lisa

Yes, so we're all Neuro spicy in our own way. So I have three grown up autistic children. Two of them live independently and one lives at home. My husband is ADHD and I have something called dyscalculia, which is basically it's to do with number blindness and lots of other things. But yeah, so that's our that's our very Neuro spicy household.

Mark

So you speak from lived experience, which is a very valuable insight to have, especially as yours have all grown up now.

Lisa

Yes, I'm on a new path now, parenting adults, which is which is yes, it's different challenges

Mark

That's a whole separate episode. Yeah, that's season four. We'll get you back in season four for that. Uh, okay, thank you for introducing us to your setup. Let's crack on with this topic of the week because I think it's one that a lot of people are going to find very interesting.

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What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, this week's topic of the week is one of those rare ones that I think are going to be relevant to every single neuroshambler out there, without exception. Because although neurodiversity can present in many different forms, one of the few experiences that all of our kids share to a greater or lesser degree are meltdowns. So when we say the word meltdown, I think a lot of people think of the classic presentation of that, which is a child who is so overwhelmed that they have an explosive reaction. So it's anger and shouting, throwing things, sometimes verbal and physical aggression, largely the kind of behavior that causes strangers to nudge each other and roll their eyes in your local Aldi, that kind of thing. But I think the definition of a meltdown is broader than that because it depends how your child reacts when they're no longer able to regulate their nervous system. So, that can also include tears, running out of the room, hiding under the table, shutdowns. So, there's lots of other different presentations that I think is worth shining a light on. So in this episode, I wanted to unpick the different presentations of meltdowns as well as looking at some of the things that can trigger them, what we can do to help our kids when they're in meltdown and some of the ways we can potentially reduce them before they happen. Hopefully. So we've got a lot on our plate for this episode, Lisa. No pressure.

Lisa

We have. No pressure.

Mark

So I think it's worth looking at what a meltdown is. firstly, what happens in our kids' brains and bodies when they experience it?

Lisa

Yes. I mean, you've described meltdown really well, but it is literally our kids' nervous system is it's just been pushed beyond its limits, so it's in survival mode. And so if we think about the nervous system having kind of different states that we all go through throughout the day, and kind of the window of tolerance is that state where we're regulated. It means we can cope with challenges as well. It doesn't just mean we're calm, it means we can cope with life. And when our kids kind of fall out of that window of tolerance, whether it's as you described into shutdown or whether it's into overload meltdown, that's when they're in that dysregulated state. And that's when they're not using that thinking part of their brain, that reasoning part of their brain. They are literally in survival mode, the nervous system is doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is to keep our kids safe, to protect them from threats. And that's when they're in a meltdown, that threat can be lots of different things around them. It can even be you. Often it is you. You are the threat that they want to get away from.

Mark

Yes. It's interesting to talk about that, that window of tolerance because I think Yeah, everyone has a window of tolerance, and that is dependent on lots of different things. Typically, for me, the amount of sleep that I get. That I'm allowed... I'm afforded by my kids. So yeah, everyone has a window of tolerance. I think it's fair to say that with neurodivergent brains, that window of tolerance can be reduced by a number of things that we're probably not aware of very often.

Lisa

Our kids have a very narrow wind of tolerance and they're often living right on the edge of it. Like most of their time is spent very close to the edge of that window of tolerance. So it's so easy for them to tip out of it. And that a lot of that is to do with capacity, which and we'll talk about probably a little bit later on when we're thinking about preventing meltdowns.

Mark

And I think the window of tolerance It's maybe helpful to think of it as it's just that they are subject to so many different variables that cause dysregulation that even things that we wouldn't necessarily see as an issue as neurotypicals or adults as well, because I think you learn tolerance a little bit more as you get older, but they're subject to variables like lighting changes or just background noise. Maybe the neighbor's got the strimmer on, something like that. reduces that window of tolerance.

Lisa

I've explained to parents, it's a bit like an oversensitive fire alarm. Smoke alarm.

Mark

Okay, yeah.

Lisa

So yeah, it's going off all the time, but it doesn't know whether it's a a house fire or whether you've burnt some toast. So it's that it's so sensitive. It's a nice way to kind of think about about like the wind of tolerance and why we we kind of see it as so kind of on the edge.

Mark

There was an analogy that I used in a previous episode. that I think is worth bringing back into this conversation because I quite like it as a way of explaining what's going on with our kids. And I know you are a self avowed technophobe. So I won't get I won't get too into this. But if you use a computer, it has RAM, right? Random Access Memory, which is basically the thing that allows your computer to use multiple different processes at once. So some computers have an enormous amount of RAM. So whatever you throw at it, if it's got lots of RAM, it can deal with it. So it can do Photoshop and a podcast export and a YouTube upload and a game of Minecraft, all running simultaneously without any noticeable impact on the computer. Now some computers don't have as much RAM. So when you ask it to do lots of different things at once, it starts having an impact. So it starts slowing down and it starts overheating and eventually it will crash. And I feel like that's what it's like for the neurodivergent brain.

Lisa

That's a great analogy. Can I steal that?

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa

Brilliant, yeah.

Mark

Because the thing is, there are lots of different processes running in our kids' brain, as we said before, that we might not even recognize. It's the handling group conversations or filtering out background noise or managing the sensation of feeling too cold or being away from your safe space or being unsure about what's happening next. All of these different things use up the processing power in their brains until the point that they get to that crash. So when they're at that full capacity, if one other thing gets added, could be anything, being denied something they were looking forward to or a sensory trigger or a demand at the wrong moment then it triggers that meltdown. And sometimes you don't see it coming. It's like, I don't know what led to that. It's because you don't see all the other things that they've got processing.

Lisa

That's exactly it, yeah. And in my book, I talk about demands and capacity model, which I've used kind of throughout my career with kids, and it's like a like very much like your analogy, but it's like balance in scales, like the old fashioned way in scales. Yes. And on one side, you've got all the demands they're dealing with, on the other side, you've got their capacity. to actually balance those demands. And like certain times of year, particularly at the moment, that side is going to be really stacked, that demand side.

Mark

At the moment, yeah, you're right.

Lisa

They're not a class for things and timetables gone and that everything's changed and they might have gone to school uniform days and all of that is adding. to that side and we don't see it in their capacity. And then at some point, like so one more thing is added and it tips, the scales tip. And then And then they're like, oh, well, where did that come from? We only asked them to come and come in from outside or we only asked them to sit at the table.

Mark

And it might be something they're totally fine with. Normally, because they have that capacity, but then this is just that thing too much. It's you're so right to point out this time of year as well, because it's an absolute shit show at my end.

Lisa

It is a shit show, yeah. I just can't get my head around it. Schools cannot see that for our kids, that those off-time table things, those school trips, those schools, all of that Are not necessarily positive things for them. Actually, we feel like our kids have to join in, they have to do it because it's a nice thing to do. But actually taking away one of those demands, them not going on the school trip or them not going into school on Sports Day could be the thing that actually saves that family from an evening of absolute you know, hell and explosion. And I think as a society, we we can't get our head around that. Actually, you know, it's like the same at Christmas. Well they should join in. It's a happy thing. They should be able to do that. Well, well, no, not necessarily.

Mark

And as you're saying, the only way that we can hopefully push back that meltdown or defer that meltdown is to reduce the number of things that are putting pressure on that processing power.

Lisa

Absolutely.

Mark

Yeah. So at the moment, the heat is causing a big issue for my kids because they absolutely hate it when it's hot and they can't handle that. There's all of this, you know, end of term nonsense that is going on with enrichment days and levers' assemblies and sports days and all of this and Otto is all over the place. And this morning, it was just too much for him. Well, last night it was too much for him. And the trigger was me telling him that I'd got a present for his teachers, right? Because his teachers have been amazing. Obviously, I want to get them a present and a card to say thank you so much for helping him through this year, because it's been tricky for all of us. And it wasn't the fact that I was giving it them, it was the fact that they might mention it to him. And he just couldn't sleep last night, and this morning he was in tears. I was like, look, I will promise, I will give it to them with a note saying, do not ever mention this to Otto. Please destroy this note and enjoy your present. Burn this note after reading. Yeah, because Otto is, yeah, it for whatever reason doesn't like that attention.

Lisa

And but it isn't just that thing, it's everything that's leading up to that. And that makes sense in a way, doesn't it? Because there are expectations with giving a present. We expect a response as the correct response and that's a lot of pressure. So you can understand at this time of year with everything else. I can see why for him that would be that would feel huge. Yeah. But other parents wouldn't get that, would they? The teachers themselves might not even understand why something like that would be so much pressure.

Mark

So I have to deliver them with the very strict instructions. Please do not be thankful. Just take it. Enjoy it. One of the things in your new book, which I loved by the way, it was fantastic and because I managed to get a cheeky preview. It's not out yet, guys. I managed to get a sneak preview, and it's an absolute treat. And I'll be giving details of that later on. But in the book, you talk about three main causes of meltdown, which I'd not thought about in that way, and I think it's really helpful. So you break it down into sensory overload, communication breakdown and unpredictability. Which I think all meltdowns can, you know, it might be a combination of those, could be all of them, but it does explain a little bit about what might be going on for them.

Lisa

Yeah, I mean over the years I've seen... God, I can't tell you how many meltdowns, and I've kind of started to like categorise them and realize actually they do fall into one or more of these three categories. So sensory you think about sensory overwhelm, and like we were talking again about our children having all that information to process, but they If you think about a cup, a lot of OTs will talk about like a sensory cup. And our kids start their day with their sensory cup often already half full.

Mark

you know, on a normal basis. Even just waking up.

Lisa

Yeah, exactly. And then when they you're adding in all that extra sensory information that they're having to put up with and having to deal with. you know, it can tip over and their cup can just overflow. And we have those senses as well as like the normal senses that we think of. We've also got things like, you know, vestibular, which is balance and movement and proprioception, which is actually knowing where our bodies feel in space. And something I noticed with my children, particularly  Barney, was that he would often lie on the floor when he was having a meltdown. When I realized it wasn't about him being bloody minded and I'm not going to walk anymore, it was I need to ground I literally need to ground myself. I need to feel my body on the floor.

Mark

That's so interesting.

Lisa

Yeah, that just was a massive thing for me.

Mark

Yeah, because you very often when you think about a meltdown, it is kids on the floor. And it's not just like... defiance. It's feeling grounded. That makes so much sense. I'd not thought about it that way.

Lisa

Yeah, so that's a huge one. And then interoception, which is those internal sensations, like you know, feeling hungry or needing to go to the toilet and our kids don't always necessarily feel those sensations or they might be like my eldest son who's PDA he would feel them but that would be precious because that's a demand like because that's a demand yeah so we can think about kind of sensory overwhelm as being like one of the reasons. And then communication breakdown. And that falls into two areas really, because we've got before a meltdown, you might find that actually your child has difficulty communicating their needs. lots of our kids have communication differences. Yeah. So you've already got that frustration building and not being able to communicate what I need. You know, I can't tell you that I'm getting too hot, or I can't tell you.

Mark

Well, they might not even be aware of it. So that's back to you.

Lisa

They might not be aware of it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then once they're in a meltdown, what we find is that the speech and language like processing part of the brain starts to shut down and they're not they don't have access to that language processing. So then on top of that frustration, their communication really reduces. And that's even for children who you know, typically are conversational. They can have a conversation with you, but in the meltdown, the access to that language is limited and their understanding of your language is really reduced.

Mark

Yes.

Lisa

And so we put a lot of pressure on our kids in the meltdown to talk and to reason. Why are you doing questions exactly?

Mark

Literally, the worst thing you can ask at that point, because as you say, their brain is not able to do that.

Lisa

They're not able to. And you're just adding another level of processing that they've got to then try and process.

Mark

And that is really frustrating as a parent. I think it's worth kind of shining a light on that as well. It's like we will do whatever we can to help them through this. It's really hard seeing your child having a meltdown. And you really want to do everything you can because we do. We're so used to advocating for their needs and for trying to help them navigate this. And I do it myself, and I catch myself doing it all the time, particularly with India, because she shuts down, which we'll get onto later. But I want to know the answers, right? What can I do? So I will ask them. which is ridiculous because it's expecting so much of her to understand what's going on, understand what it is that she needs, and then communicate that to me. Is really putting a lot of extra pressure on India. But it's frustrating for me because I'll do anything. Like, literally, if you'd say, go and do the macarena, and I'll. be fine. I'll be doing it in Asda. I don't care. But at that time, it I don't have any of those clues and it's really it's really hard, but it's even harder on them. So it you have to find a different way of of navigating it.

Lisa

I think it's one of the hardest things as a parent to exactly like you said, to be there when they're having a meltdown and feel so helpless that you don't know what to do. And obviously, we'll talk about what we can do in a while. But as parents, it's really tough on us. And sometimes, like you said, we talk about our kids a lot and the struggles they're having. But as parents, we need that validation that this is bloody hard. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to make this better. And sometimes not doing anything is the right thing to do. And that can be You know, it's a mind fuck, isn't it?

Mark

It feels like you're being negligent.

Lisa

Yeah, exactly. And people are viewing us.

Mark

That's it. Other people look at that and go, well. They're not doing anything. You don't want to see me try, because it makes it a lot worse.

Lisa

Yeah, you want to see me pour some petrol on this bonfire, then go for it. Yeah. So communication, that's the second thing. And then unpredictability. So we know that our kids they and many of our kids rely on routine to feel safe. They need that predictability to keep their nervous system regulated. And so when things change unexpectedly, like this time of year, their nervous system kind of it goes into shock, you know. And as I said before, it doesn't sort of pause to say, well, is this a big problem or a small problem? it just goes change, reaction. That's another thing I have to process. Yeah, this is danger, so I'm gonna I'm gonna react to that. And so it flips into survival mode. And often, I think a meltdown can go into all three of those areas. Yes. You know, if a child is frustrated, like I said, they can't tell you that they're feeling hot. then you've got that sensory overwhelm as well as that kind of lack of communication skills. And then you might have unpredictability because it's a non school uniform day. They weren't expecting that. So you know, it sometimes it's helpful later on after a meltdown's gone, even a few days later, to just think, well, actually, you know, what where would I put that when I think about those three areas? And I think that's we do that with like no judgment. It's just curiosity. No one's to blame. It's just, can I think about what was at play?

Mark

And it's all about evidence gathering, isn't it? And going, well, you know, let's see. Because our role is to try wherever possible to remove some of these these bumps in the road for them ahead of time. So if you know Sports Day is coming up Right. Then you scaffold that very early on. With Otto, it's like Sports Day is coming up. Everyone's going to be talking about it. You are not expected to go to Sports Day. You are going to actually hang out at home. So it's making sure that that change in routine is signposted as early on as possible and then saying, but it's okay, here are the plans in place. A lot of that happens in hindsight though. Like, you know, sometimes because there are things we can do to reduce it, but sometimes it only becomes clear what we could have done Yeah. Which is again, as a parent feels horrible, just like, oh, I should have seen this coming.

Lisa

It's horrible, yeah. And I think we have to be kind to ourselves because otherwise you're constantly firefighting, you're constantly risk assessing. Sometimes we miss things, but also sometimes you do all the things, all the right things and then there's still a meltdown and we can't work out why it happened. And that's okay as well. Sometimes we can put everything in place. and then it still happens. So I think as parents, we need to be kind to ourselves and not beat ourselves up too much about what we could have done, which is easier said than done, isn't it? Yeah, of course. Because part of being a parent is we, you know, we feel guilty. It just comes with a territory.

Mark

What we did quite early on with Jay in particular is we logged a lot of His meltdowns because again, it's really useful for kind of EHCPs and you know getting a diagnosis and that side of things. So we logged a lot of that. And sometimes when you do that, you spot a pattern. Yeah. Every Tuesday he has a meltdown going in, and what is it about that? And maybe there's a substitute teacher in that week, or whatever it is. But you can start to sort of identify things just from writing them down, which I find useful.

Lisa

Yes, I think that's really useful. And something I definitely recommend to parents is to keep a log. Because like you said, you start to see those patterns building. And you've got, it's data, isn't it? You know, you take the emotion out of it and you will actually have a look at what we've got. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. Just identifying that that's not an easy thing to do either because it feels like you're you know you're chronicling your child in their worst moments and their most difficult moments, yeah. But it is important information, I think, you know. if you're trying to work out what potential triggers for meltdown are, then that could be quite useful. So I wanted to look into the different types of meltdown response because we touched on it a little bit in the Introduction, but I wanted to explore it a bit further because not all meltdowns are explosive. They're the most obvious ones, they're the ones that people will most often associate with meltdowns. But I think that the way that our kids react depends on their response when their survival instinct kicks in. And there are generally four responses that people talk about, which is Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. There's another one which is flop, which we've talked about, but again, that's more, you know, a much more cumulative build-up of all of these things that leads to people not being able to get out of bed and but let's just kind of go with the first four at the moment. As I've said many times on Neuroshambles, my kids each respond to meltdowns in a different way, which, you know, same diagnosis, completely different response to meltdowns. I mean, do you, with your lot, do they experience meltdowns differently?

Lisa

Yeah, all three of them respond very differently. And obviously, as adults now, we see it less. But my daughter, particularly, she wasn't diagnosed till she was in her 20s. Yeah, although we had our suspicions in her teenage years. So she is a classic example of fawning. So she she that almost like that good girl response that she just wants to please everybody. And as an adult, she's now described that in a bit more detail to me, that when she kind of does go into freeze And we often think of freeze as it's shut down, but actually she describes her freeze is internally she is screaming. Like internally, she's really having that meltdown.

Mark

That's heartbreaking.

Lisa

Yes, it is heartbreaking. But it's important, I think, to know that because we think of regulation as being quiet, and that's not always the case. A quiet child doesn't necessarily mean that they're a regulated child. And that worries me in classes at school as well when some children are they are fawning, they are people pleasing, but internally they're not regulated. And that accumulative effect, like you said, can lead to kind of burnout, which it did for her. But it's so useful as adults for them to describe that to me now, for her to say actually internally, I'm having the same type of meltdown as the boys, you know, I am screaming, I am just like, you know, I need to do something. So yeah, very different.

Mark

So fawning is essentially masking, right?

Lisa

Which is Yeah, it it yeah, it's people pleasing. It's I'm going to do what people want me to do to stay safe. So all our responses to meltdowns are about safety. So how am I going to be safe? So like the obvious fight the tiger, run away from the tiger, freeze so the tiger can't see me. But then with fawning, it's

Mark

Pretend to be a tiger.

Lisa

Pretend to be yeah. I'm gonna...

Mark

Blend in. But then that is accompanied by by freeze, very often. But when she got home, because that's very that's in public, right? Yeah. How would that meltdown manifest itself then? Did it did it sort of manifest itself into fight or flight, or was it something else?

Lisa

For the boys, often they would Have meltdowns that were very external at school, but sometimes they wouldn't, sometimes they would mask all day, right? And then they would come home, and we would see that 3:30, yeah, the 3:30 hell of it all coming out. Actually, for Jess, she was a lot more complicated that she almost masked at home as well. And she says now that she's had to teach herself not to mask. Because she even does it when she's on her own in her own flat. It's become so ingrained that I stay safe by behaving like this, by not being neurodivergent at all, that it's taken her a long time to unmask. So actually at home, we didn't see those extreme amount bounds with her. Yeah.

Mark

But then you're saying that that led to burnout eventually. And it's useful to point out that that's not a conscious decision.

Lisa

No.

Mark

A fawn response is not a, oh, I'm going to just do what they say.

Lisa

It's just the nervous system doing what it needs to do. And I think with our girls, we do see a lot more fawning in girls than boys. Not to say that boys don't fawn. I think it's part of the issue why they are later getting their diagnosis, because it's harder to spot right if a child is smiling and happy and calm and quiet, then we're not going to necessarily assume that there's an issue, that there's something going on.

Mark

And when you do it for long enough that becomes the norm, right? That becomes what what just what happens. And it takes so much time to unpick all of that as I'm sure many late diagnosed neurodivergents will recognise. I know, that Tam is late diagnosed and is still trying to put together who they are.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

What do I like? Actually, what do I like? Not, you know, what am I just going along with?

Lisa

It's so ingrained, isn't it? You know, that it's so ingrained that they've done this for so long to feel safe that actually. unmasking can feel very unsafe. It's like, actually, is this okay for me to do this? Who am I? It's like an onion. Like you're peeling away the layers to get to who we are.

Mark

Tam sees it in quite a liberating way now, I think, a few years in, that they now just reflect on pretty much everything that happens and go, do I actually want to do this? So there's a party that sounds like it might be fun, and there are people there that I know would be quite fun, but actually going, Do I? Is that a thing I would enjoy? No. So I'm not going to go to the party. But it takes that reflection and that understanding of your own neurotype and how you respond in those situations to do that. And obviously our kids don't have that yet. That awareness yet.

Lisa

No, not not yet, but I think by supporting them through meltdowns, that's another thing actually when we sit with them through the meltdowns and we help them to process the meltdowns and what that feels like, my kids kind of now have got to the point where exactly as you said, that they know what their limit is, so they know what their capacity is. And one of my kids loves to go to parties and clubs and busy towns they absolutely adore it, but they know that the payoff for that is that they are going to reach their capacity and they're going to absolutely crash. Whereas my other kids will not touch a party or a nightclub at all. They're just like, no, I'm not doing that because they've learned actually that, that doesn't work for them. So as parents, we can support our kids every meltdown they have, although it's so stressful and traumatic for us, if we think about actually when we sit with them through those feelings, when we help them respond to what their body feels like each time they're starting to learn a little bit more about themselves so that they can advocate for themselves as they get a little bit older.

Mark

Yeah, and have that awareness of what it is that triggers those meltdowns, those cumulative effects. So that's the sort of fawn side of things. And we touched on the freeze, but I think it's worth kind of going into a little bit deeper because this is India's presentation of overwhelm. It's that shut down. Not being able to communicate at all. She'll just go completely situationally mute, as I've discussed multiple times on this podcast. But she only really is able to make... it's quite difficult to listen to, but quite like grunting noises, almost like an animal. And when she's trying to communicate, but she can't. And the thing about the Fawn and the Freeze types of meltdown is that they don't draw much attention compared to the other two. So I will only notice it a while like quite a bit after she's started having it, because, you know, my house is chaos and there's lots going on and I won't know. And then I'll sort of turn to India and and maybe ask her a question, and I'll notice she's in meltdown. Yeah, and then I'm trying to piece together what it is that causes the meltdown And then, as we talked about earlier, asking that questions as to what caused it, what can I do, is the worst thing I can do in that situation. So it's really hard. I have to sort of find the clues. So it may have been like she's broken her fidget toy. You know, that was one recently. She had a fidget toy. She really liked it. She she gets through these squishy fidget toys. Like, I don't, she's got the grip of an arm wrestler. Seriously, she's...

Lisa

Cracking walnuts in her hand.

Mark

Exactly. It's crazy. It's like Popeye with the spinach.

Lisa

Wow. That's a skill you need to harness.

Mark

But when she does it, the because it's a stress reliever, right? It helps her stay regulated. So when she breaks it, she's not only attached to this thing that gives her comfort, she's now broken it. So that was a recent thing and I had to follow the the trail of goo. You know the goo that's inside those and go, oh, I know what's happened here and then have to kind of work through that. Another one was that she was doing a card for someone and just made a mistake. And that's a big thing for her. So she went completely nonverbal. And again, I had to look for the clues, and I saw the card on the table that had been scribbled out and ripped up. I was like, okay, so that's what it was. It's really hard to parent that one.

Lisa

It is, yeah.

Mark

But again, it's just looking for the clues and trying to help deal with that. The other and we're going in reverse order from the ones I mentioned, so I quite like this, though. It's good. Keep you on your toes, Neuroshamblers. The other one is the flight response. Have you got any flight responders?

Lisa

Oh my goodness, my eldest son is a flight responder constantly. Even now as an adult, it's interesting that one of his go to things is just to leave, just to leave something or like get away as quick as possible. He will just go. And as a child He would get out elope from school all the time.

Mark

Right. Okay. Which is worrying, obviously.

Lisa

Yeah, very worrying. It was, I mean, we're talking, he's 30 now, so we're talking a long time ago. but it was a small village school and often he would get out and be running up the village and getting back. He would come home from school holding it all in. As soon as he got out the car, he would run off.

Mark

Just into the hills?

Lisa

Yeah, just off. Yeah, I'm going. I'm going. Yeah. So we'd be like driving around trying to find him. So I think that's a really hard one for safety. one of the worst meltdowns he ever had. In fact, I mentioned this on social media a couple of weeks ago and it got a lot of response was he jumped out of his bedroom window. And it was just it was horrendous. He landed on the conservatory roof and and rolled. Somehow, he just rolled and he was not injured. I don't know how he wasn't injured. And I think for me, that was a real turning point because I was aware that I the way I was parenting at that point was not helping. But I was still trying to parent in that very neurotypical way of You know, this is not okay behavior. Talking, talking, talking. I'd followed him to his bedroom and throwing a guitar at me. I still didn't take that as a hint to leave. He told me to leave. I didn't leave. So he left. He jumped out the window. And that's his survival instinct, right?

Mark

It's like you are the bear.

Lisa

Yeah. You are the threat. Yeah, you are the threat. I'm getting. And obviously, his sense of safety had gone at that point. There was, you know, and he was dropped from a height, which is which is really worrying. And that's when I looked at changing how I responded to meltdowns, and so it became a little bit safer after that.

Mark

Yeah, that's a...

Lisa

That's an extreme one.

Mark

That really is an extreme one, but yeah. Yeah, see ot Otto responds with flight, but in a in a slightly different way that because it's it's crying and panicking and running out of the room. Yeah, um, not to the degree that he'll jump out of a window or abscond because he's also very anxious, so he wouldn't, he still needs to be near, like, he needs to be safe, but it is very much like, there's the thing, and I need to get away from the thing. And again, you know, that presents in lots of different ways, but just remove myself from that situation And it would take him a long time to calm down. And very often, I think that's just time on their own, right? which again will get into sort of different strategies for different responses, but yeah, flights is not always as extreme as jumping out of the window. It's could be hiding under the table or getting in a cupboard or, you know, that kind of thing.

Lisa

Yeah. It amazes me sometimes. what our kids are able to do. Like it's intuitive, isn't it? That actually I'm going to leave this environment because this environment is causing me to feel stress. And when you actually pick it apart, it's quite amazing that they've got that intuition to do that. It's just obviously sometimes it's not the m safest thing.

Mark

It takes us time to catch up. There's the thing. They're showing us. You know, they're showing us what they need by actually doing it. And we're they're going, what's wrong? Like chasing the.m Chasing after them. You know, so we just need to be led by our kids sometimes. They're giving us all the clues. It's just working out how to interpret them, I guess. The final response, which is one that is probably more familiar to most parents of neurodivergent kids, I think, is because it's the most visible And it's also probably the most difficult to deal with, I think, for the parent rather than for the child, is the fight response. This is Jay's presentation when he's overwhelmed. Do you have any fighty responders?

Lisa

Not so much. So my eldest was a a fighter and a flighter, so you'd have a bit of fight first, then a flight. But in our household, we don't have so much kind of of the of the fight. Barney when he was younger would kind of I suppose he was more fight but not towards a person. It would be kind of destruction. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, which is the that more explosive presentation. And it's not always physical fighting, as you say. It's sometimes, you know, with Jay it's more often verbal aggression. Or just the hard no to what you're asking them to do. They're fighting your demands and you know, sometimes their own demands.

Lisa

It's viewed, isn't it, as very defiant as well, I think, in the public and society. We see that it's like more classic tantrum type behaviour that people think, oh, that's naughty.

Mark

That was the one that I misread earlier on in our journey with Jay because I would be offended that he would speak to me like that. You know, because again, sometimes what they say is really awful and really hurtful. And very often, the reason for that is like, I need you to get away from me. And if I say an awful thing, you're going to want to get away from me. It's not necessarily to hurt, it's just to go, dude, I'm not a person you want to be around at the moment.

Lisa

It's like pressing. I say sometimes, it's like pressing like the the panic button. I'm going to say this the worst thing I can ever say.

Mark

I'm going to go nuclear

Lisa

But actually, I'm communicating to you that this is really bad, you know, I'm just not I'm not feeling okay. I need you. Yes. You know, I need you to help me here. And that's how that's how they communicate it.

Mark

Yeah. And, you know, in those days my ego would be wounded because it's you know, because again, I grew up with relatively traditional parenting stereotypes of I am the parent, I am in charge, how dare you defy me? So then I would end up shouting back. Which is the worst thing that you could do. As you said earlier, it's like pouring petrol onto a fire because not only am I doubling down on the thing that is causing him to respond in that way anyway. There's also the sensory overwhelm of me shouting as well. So I'm adding more to that. And it always just got worse until we'd just be shouting at each other. Which is never a good look to be arguing with a five-year-old, is it? So now, I mean, he so he still responds In this way now, if he's overwhelmed, he'll still shout and say awful things. But I know where it's from now So I don't respond in the same way.

Lisa

That's the difference isn't it? Yes, I think understanding meltdowns is can be such a big piece of the puzzle. Yes. And I think that's where things can really start to change is when you understand Why it's happening and where it's coming from. But it's not always, you know, in the moment, it's not, we can't always rationalize, but I think it takes away that kind of frustration. It's like, okay, this isn't great. I know why he's swearing at me. You know, I'm not going to, you know, do the usual and punish. And despite the pressure from, you know, in-laws or other people. But it gives you that confidence as a parent, I think, that what you're doing is right in the long run.

Mark

Yeah, it takes a while to get there.

Lisa

It takes a while to get there.

Mark

Because it is like now it's water off a duck's back to me when he says stuff. It's taken a long time to get there and to sit and deal with that.

Lisa

Yeah, you have to grow very thick skin.

Mark

Yeah, I had a recent experience at my parents' house when Jay and I were playing a board game. And you know, he was losing. He wouldn't admit to that. He was losing. It wasn't going well for him. And then there was a slight misinterpretation of the rules and he lost his shit at me in front of my parents and they'd never seen that before, but he just sort of stood up and he yelled, "Fuck you!" in my face. And like I have never sworn in front of my parents. Ever, right? Okay. So, so that was like a really big, like, really jarring for them. And obviously, mortifying for me because no one wants someone else to witness their kids speaking to them like that. So, you know, I just said. go upstairs and just kind of, you know, do some gaming or whatever it is that was going to regulate him. And he did that. And I didn't react back to Jay and he went off to regulate and I avoided eye contact with my parents for the rest of the day. And that was that.

Lisa

Well done, well done for not feeling that pressure to parent in a way. that was expected. I think that's a big thing for us. It's like there's a generation of people that do expect us to parent a certain way. It can be really hard not to give in to that and tell them off.

Mark

Because that's what your parents would expect. That's a really interesting point. I'm not really I'd not really thought of, but yeah, normally, like older version of me would have felt pressure to show that I was in charge. Because that's how my parents parented me. So we're like, look, I'm doing parenting. Watch. I'm doing the parenting, can't you see? I thought it'd be useful to go into some of the common misconceptions. About meltdown, because it's one thing that you sort of touched on earlier, and one thing that really frustrates me when people view meltdowns who don't know about neurodiversity and how it can present in different people. And the worst thing that they can say is He's just having a tantrum. It's it's dismissing a meltdown as a tantrum is so uniquely frustrating to me, I think. And I think it's worth going into the differences because there are tantrums do exist. That's not saying that kids don't have tantrums. Our kids can have tantrums when they're little. Not all tantrums are meltdowns. But meltdowns are not tantrums and they're very different. This is something that I covered in one of the talks that I do. It's the "How to deal with judgment: A survival guide" talk.

Lisa

Oh, that sounds great.

Mark

Which looks at common things that people say and then unpicking where it comes from and what you can usefully say in response. whilst keeping your cool. If you want to book me for that talk, hello at neuroshambles. com, happy to come and deliver that for you. But what I'd sort of focus on here is that the differences between a tantrum. So tantrums are directed towards a specific goal, typically. So your toddler who is having a tantrum wants something, right? They want to get attention or they want a toy or they want a biscuit or to avoid bedtime or whatever it is. They're doing it because there's a thing they want that they can't get. That's not what meltdowns are.

Lisa

No, and I think it can look like that though, can't it? Because our kids, when they're having a meltdown, there is a goal sometimes, and that goal is to sometimes to be away from something or even actually needing something for regulation. So there is a goal, but it's very it's very different. And I think people who don't understand neurodivergence would find that impossible to to pick apart and and see the difference of that.

Mark

It may even be that they want a thing, but that the denial of that thing is the final straw. There's been loads of other things leading up to that. So it looks like it's triggered by that, but it's not. There's so much more under the surface that That's leading up to that. So, yeah, it's more complex than just like, oh, I said that no to sweets, and you know, they're now.

Lisa

Or I said it's time to switch the iPad off. That's a classic one, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, yeah. And it's then now they're in full-blown meltdown. Another of the differences between tantrums and meltdowns is that tantrums often intensify when there's someone watching. You know, when they know they've got an audience, those toddlers kicking off. They go bigger. They try and get everyone involved in it. And also the advice if your toddler is having a tantrum is to just ignore them or walk off, so they don't have that audience. Meltdowns happen regardless of whether or not there's anyone watching. If anyone is watching, typically they're oblivious to it because they're not in their rational brain. Meltdowns also can happen in private, right? The smashing of the room and you know, it doesn't require an audience. Another of the differences is that tantrums stop when the child gets what they want, right? Or when they're distracted. They're like, okay, I'll buy you a toy I'll buy you a Freddo. And then they go, All right, fine, let's crack on then. You know?

Lisa

Deal done.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. Whereas meltdowns can't. Because if it's got to that point, let's use the same example. They've been triggered into meltdown by saying you can't have a Freddo because we've having dinner in ten minutes. Once they're in that meltdown, giving them the Freddo at that point is not going to make a difference because they're already over the age. So they can't just switch it off. And then the other thing to focus on really is that how much a meltdown takes out of Kids. So, again, as we're saying, like with the tantrum, the kid, the toddler will recover pretty quickly, right? They'll dust themselves down, get off the floor, and skip off, right? with Freddo around their face. Whereas with meltdowns, it takes an enormous amount of energy out of our kids. So it will very often take them a lot more time to recover from. One thing to notice is that I think tantrums do tend to disappear as kids get older. You know, that's the thing. You don't see grown adults fling themselves on the floor because they can't go where they want. Typically, they might swear a bit or use other measures, but it's not like that. You know, that issue because with toddlers, their prefrontal cortex is just not yet developed enough to regulate those big emotions, and very often they don't have the language or the cognitive tools to process that, so they resort to losing their shit, right?

Lisa

That's a coping tool.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. It's valid. But when their brain develops, typically they learn alternative ways to process that frustration. With meltdowns, as we said, it's not about achieving something. It's just that the nervous system has been pushed way beyond its capacity to cope. And now they're in their survival instinct. You have to let it play out.

Lisa

And I think what you're saying about age, that's actually really interesting and important point, isn't it? Because as our kids get older and they're having those meltdowns, people accept it less. Like if you're in the supermarket and you've got a five year old who you know is having a meltdown you might get a few looks or comments, but generally people just think, oh, it's a child having a tantrum. But when you've got a thirteen year old in a supermarket having a meltdown then the reaction is very different. And I think that can be really hard as parents, as our kids get older and older to handle that because they're bigger as well. And it becomes more of a threat and people see it as You know, one of my worries was always that my kids as adults would end up having a meltdown and, you know, people around them. And police or even you know, see it as something as a real threat, you know, because that behavior is not acceptable in society, is it, by a twenty year old?

Mark

And people don't know where it's coming from. Because it's a hidden disability, so it's not immediately obvious. Which is, you know, brings me on to one of the other misconceptions that we have where people see that behavior and they see it as bad behavior. The implication here is that the child is making a choice to react in this way. They've weighed up the options. They've gone, no, my option is... cause mayhem. And also that that behavior is manipulation in a way as well.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

Which is really frustrating.

Lisa

And people are happy to say that, aren't they, as well? You know, the amount of when my kids used to have meltdowns in a supermarket, it was almost like it was a beacon for pensioners.

Mark

For some reason, like older people like meerkats. They look up from their shopping and go, Oh, someone's having a tantrum in the vegetable aisle. I'm going to go and give my opinion.

Lisa

Yeah, give my opinion. I've had people tell my children they were naughty to their face.

Mark

To their face?

Lisa

Yeah, to actually say that's naughty behaviour. I've had a pensioner try and wave like a chocolate bar in front of them, like it was a dog or something, and it was just like, back off. Please just fuck off.

Mark

I mean they mean well I'm sure they think that they're helping you're not helping Maude Stop it. Yeah, it's not it's not manipulation. It's not some kind of devious Machiavellian ploy to help them achieve some kind of end goal as we've discussed. And it is it's very frustrating because the implication is there that you are somehow letting them manipulate you.

Lisa

Bad parenting.

Mark

And it's bad parenting. Which is the thing that underpins a lot of this judgment from the public. The other one that people have a misconception of is the belief that the behavior is attention seeking. They're trying to get attention, which from everything that I've experienced with any meltdowns, the literal opposite is true of that. When my kids are in meltdown, The very last thing they want is people's attention, including mine, very often. Anyone's attention. They just you know, they just need to be able to deal with it. in their own way. Why would they want to be like, hey guys, look, I'm absolutely kicking the shit out of my bedroom.

Lisa

Yeah, exactly. And and and they... our kids feel bad about it. They don't want to have a meltdown. They feel awful afterwards. You know, it's not something anyone would want to have. And I think that's another thing that that people don't realise is actually a lot of our kids afterwards do feel a little bit that sense of shame that that happened. And when they come out of a meltdown, that can be a really crucial point to not send them back in when you're on about attention and people talking. the amount of times I've been sat with a child in a school or wherever, who's just coming out of a meltdown for somebody to come over and start talking to them. Are you okay now? And it's like No, step away, and then you're back in the space.

Mark

I think a debrief can be helpful, but you need to give it loads of space. Not at that point, yeah. Obviously, all meltdowns. Are horrendous for us as parents, but I think public meltdowns are the worst, as we've touched on, right? Is when other people are trying to get involved in that because obviously we're worried about our kids at that point. We want to do whatever it takes to get them through this. That is never resolved by someone else's input, ever. Never had a person who's actually been able to magically make my kids' meltdown disappear in public. So you're you're worried for your child, you're also aware of the judgment from other people and you're also trying to just kind of separate the two because you know it's going to inflame the situation. And as you say, you've kind of had that previously. there's a social stigma involved when people see your child having a meltdown. And I think I tend to feel bad sometimes because I There's a people pleasing element to me. And I don't want to disrupt other people's day as well. So that's multiple, like, I don't want, you know, I'd rather this wasn't happening for everyone's sake. And I don't want you getting involved. Especially with Jay, because his behavior is explosive and fighty. Is that something that you experienced a lot of in terms of the public meltdown?

Lisa

Yeah, definitely. So many public meltdowns, and like you say, it's that friction between what people expect of you and then what you're doing because you know in that moment. actually just being there, not doing anything and just keeping everybody safe is the best option. But when you've got people watching your child kick the shit out of you or swear and they're like, why are you not doing anything? I think that is one of the hardest parts of parenting and autistic child and that judgment because there've been many a times I've done that because of the pressure, even later on in my mothering career, where I've ended up parenting in a way that actually I know wasn't the right way to parent because of pressure. From societal people watching, yeah. I think it's okay to admit that because we've all felt that pressure. You know, I remember on an aeroplane once where one of the kids was having a meltdown and it was kicking the back of the chair. And I just thought, I've got to do something. And, you know, I just shouted because I just wanted the people around me. Yeah. To see I was doing something.

Mark

Performative parenting, I call it. Yeah, it was like, look, I am parenting. But actually, really, it's like. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. Okay, people don't know because they see the behavior and think that the reason your child is having a meltdown is because you're a shit parent, and the fact that you're not getting involved by telling them to stop it is evidence that you're a shit parent.

Lisa

And how much do you say? Like, you know, there have been times where I've been tempted to to actually say something like, oh he's autistic or well, I've always held back from doing that. I don't know why because I just do they need that information. They don't that's none of their business, you know?

Mark

Well, I think the context is important because I think when you say that they realize that there's something else going on. In that situation. I've actually in the talk I do, I've got this like decision tree where it kind of takes you through the decisions that you have to make. One of them is like, are you ever going to see these people again? If you're not, just fuck 'em. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. The other one is, are they actually going to learn if you tell them?

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

You know, are they actually going to take that on board and do something? If they are, then explain a bit more. If they're not, ignore them.

Lisa

That's such a good idea. Yeah, I really like that.

Mark

But yeah, it's very difficult having to juggle all of these things when you're having a meltdown because your senses are heightened as well. And your senses are.

Lisa

Exactly. We're dysregulated.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa

As parents. we're often dysregulated in that moment. And we know that nervous systems mirror each other. So actually, we need to try and stay as calm as possible because that's the thing that's going to you know, when we're both up here, nobody's coming down here. But if we're here, eventually our child's nervous system is going to meet us there. But that can take time, that can take an hour, it could take two hours. And we're feeling so dysregulated inside ourselves. So it's really challenging.

Mark

Yes. And as a parent of neurodivergent kids, if you're neurodivergent yourself and you're being triggered possibly by the noise, possibly by all the other different variables, that must be incredibly difficult to navigate.

Lisa

That's a really good point that as being a neurodivergent parent, parenting neurodivergent kids, you've got these neurotypes that sometimes are bashing against each other. And also you can have like different things. Like my husband is the way he presents and things that trigger him are very different to maybe how one of the the kids is triggered. So he'll be in the kitchen bashing like plates around, making loads of noise And my daughter is so noise sensitive that for her that's like, you know, she's just you're trying to kind of balance all these neurotypes. And sometimes if you're the neurotypical one, you're like the thermostat, aren't you? Just like, turn this down, turn this down and It's a lot to carry, I think.

Mark

It's a lot. So shout out to all of the neurodivergent parents of neurodivergent kids. Just as a heads up, the next episode is going to be about exactly that.

Lisa

Brilliant.

Mark

So we've looked at potentially what is going on behind meltdowns and how that can present. But I think it's important to look at how we can possibly reduce the chances of meltdown. Now It's worth saying that I don't think there's any way we can reduce it entirely because there is no way that we can remove all of the variables that potentially contribute to the dysregulation and overwhelm that leads to a meltdown because the world exists. Other people exist. Noises exist outside of our control. We cannot lock it all down. So it feels bad to say this, but meltdowns are inevitable. With neurodivergent kids, and even when they become adults. So, a lot of neurodivergent adults discuss very openly. Pete Warnby talks a lot about on the socials, about his overwhelm. How you know he's got more awareness of the things that cause it now. So, as you're saying, with your kids, they can regulate themselves more because they know some of the triggers, but it doesn't stop it happening because other things happen.

Lisa

Exactly. Yeah, you can't control the world around you.

Mark

You can't control other people's behaviour. But as we touched on earlier, our kids don't necessarily know what those triggers are early on. So a lot of what we can do to reduce their chances of meltdown is try and spot the signs. And one of the things that you talk about in your new book, which I thought was a really useful perspective, is that meltdowns are communication. It's the sign that the tipping point has been reached, right? It's the tip of the iceberg, if you like. And there are so many other factors that have contributed to that.

Lisa

Yeah, exactly. I think that's the positive flip on meltdowns is that they are communication and they are telling us sometimes. Because when you think about a meltdown, there's actually three parts to a meltdown. The way I describe it is you've got the lead up where we're getting dysregulated, and I see that as part of the meltdown.

Mark

Yes.

Lisa

And you've got what like what I call the eye of the storm, where there's very little you can do at that point other than to be there and co regulate. And then you've got the calm down bit. And the bit like the lead up to the meltdown is the point where we really can do potentially do something. And that's where we're looking for that communication, those signs that like you said earlier, every Tuesday he comes home from school and some things upset him. Okay. So it's noticing that. And if we can get in earlier, then potentially we can start to reduce the occurrences of meltdowns. Like you said, they're often going to happen, but if we can predict them a little bit more and we can kind of put things in place to maybe even reduce the intensity of them. It can feel quite affirming, really positive you can do something about it.

Mark

Yeah, and I've definitely been able to sidestep meltdowns before. just by simple stuff because you learn to spot the signs in each of your children as well because the way it presents is very different. You know, Otto, I can spot coming a mile off. because he's getting a bit more fizzy and he's getting a bit more emotional. And very often it's to do with an interoception thing. It's like, have you eaten? Do you need a wee? You like just simple stuff like that. And then he's like, oh, oh, no, I need to we. So it's catching that and then going, well, what are the potential things? That can be contributing to it. And hopefully, it's as easy as that, but it's not always the case. Not always the case

Lisa

I see my my daughter even now, if we're in a cafe, I start to notice like it's in her eyes, I can see her start to glaze over. and it's almost like she's going offline, and I can see her going into shutdown. And that even as an adult now, that's helpful for me to say put your AirPods in.

Yeah, ok.

She can put them in and then, okay, then she's back with us. But it's very subtle. And like you said, as a parent, I think sometimes you're the only one who can

Mark

You can see that. And you want to get it when it's subtle, because it means that it's not too late, right? Because when it's obvious to everyone, you've already, yeah, that horse has bolted, guys. And now you've just got to clear the area. Just deal with it. And with Jay it is as well. Like if we're playing a game, I just notice he'll becoming much more spiky and stuff. And, you know, there've been occasions where I've gone Look, we're going to pause the game, not stop it. We're going to pause this right now. You need to just go and, you know, calm down a little bit and then we'll pick it up when you come back. Very rarely has that actually worked because I was going to say, is that successful? No, it in it is if I get it early enough. Yeah. But if I don't, then it's too late because then he needs he's hell bent on vanquishing everyone at the game. So so it's it's a fine line. You know, it's like an avocado, like the window of ripeness. It's so small. If you could get it, you could squeeze it and go, Yeah, I think we're good. But otherwise, it's yeah, it's gone to shit.

Lisa

That's brilliant. I love that. Or a banana.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa

You know, one day it's fine, it's fine. No, it's black. You can't eat it now.

Mark

But I think the point is that I think it's useful to know this, the tip of the iceberg analogy, this communication. Analogy is that our kids will have been trying to keep it together for way longer than we realize, and it's this slow drip feed of dysregulation until it becomes too much. So, if you can spot the signs. earlier then it's good. I had a recent experience with Jay when I went to my brother's house for a family gathering at Easter. And he was really up for it at the start of the day, which I was surprised by because it involved a long car journey. But he seemed quite up for it. And there were going to be people there, and it was a new house as well. So there was that. Yeah. So I was surprised and I was like, well, this is the plan. Great. We're on board with it. Great. We've got your switch. I've got lots of other, you know, things. My mum and organized an Easter egg hunt. And she bought like fifty tiny eggs 'cause she's got a lot of grandkids so she's like, I'm gonna hide these like my mum has got like visions of being the Easter bunny in real life, right? So she's hiding these eggs, right? But for some reason She hid them ridiculously well, right? So Jay now knows there are 50 eggs somewhere in this garden, right? But he's only found two after about 10 minutes, right? I'm seeing him getting more and more wound up. That he's only found two. And to make matters worse, my mum was helping the two youngest grandkids to find them. Now they're five and six, so they need help, right? They're getting help direct from the Easter Bunny in Jay's eyes, which is not okay. So he's starting to feel this brewing sense of injustice as well, because he doesn't see a difference between why he, as a 13-year-old, should not be getting the same assistance as a five- or six-year-old when they're getting the prizes and he's not. And I could see him starting to explode. So I basically stopped everything and I went, I think we need your switch, don't we, right now? So I took him to a room that was quiet and I like got the switch out. And then I realized I couldn't connect it to the internet because it was a new house and I didn't have their Wi-Fi. So I'm panicking at these points. You can just see where it's going. It's like trying to diffuse a bomb. You know, we've only got a matter of seconds now. I need your Wi-Fi code immediately. Right. And he's like, what's the problem? Dude, calm down. Like, no, no, we do not have this time. Just give me the code. And Fortunately, he managed to give me the Wi-Fi code and I managed to connect it. But it was already at that point, you know, that was not good. He was kind of past the point that that would reset him. Because I think some meltdowns you can stave off and reset. He was that was just the des dysregulation was so high, his cup was so full, that only managed to tip a little bit out of his cup and I knew we were on borrowed time at that point. So I made an agreement with Jay that we would leave within he said five minutes. Right. And I was like, well, I do need to say goodbye. I managed to get him to 15 minutes. I managed to negotiate, which I thought I took as a win. So then it was a case of just getting all of our shit together. Yeah. Getting everyone in the car. The problem is that Otto and India are there having a lovely time.

Lisa

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? That it's just sometimes it's it feels so unfair, doesn't it, to siblings when that sibling's meltdown means that it you know they're going to miss out on things. And again, as parents think that's hard, isn't it?

Mark

It is, but that's the only one like the alternative is what? Just let loose a Tasmanian devil in Someone else's new home. Not an option. Yeah. So, yeah, we had to just go. And I knew that I kind of had to honor that 15 minutes because we'd made that agreement. So we basically got the hell out of there. Like we'd stolen something. Yeah.

Lisa

Well done.

Mark

It was a long car journey home, though.

Lisa

I was going to say, I bet the journey itself was quite challenging.

Mark

Yeah, because you're sort of dealing with him still being in meltdown, you know, and still saying awful things. So some awful things, just having to concentrate on the road and hope that there wasn't traffic jam because that would been Oh God, you know what it's like.

Lisa

I'm tensing up just thinking about this, to be honest with you, Mark.

Mark

We got there. We did get there. But I did find it really when I got home, I just had a like, oh, why can't we just have a nice time? sometimes, you know, 'cause I wanted that as well. But you know. So that's one of the things you can do to handle a meltdown, and not necessarily the best example of it. But just kind of spot it and just get the hell out of the situation that is causing the meltdown, regardless of who else is like, I used to take the kids into the toilet at the supermarket, so if they were having a meltdown at the supermarket and people were watching.

Lisa

when they were younger, I literally would bundle them up, either go to the car or go to the toilets because it just gives you that bit of space out of the situation to try and diffuse before you go to the car.

Mark

Yeah, that's a good idea. It gives you a little bit of space as well to feel like you're not being judged and yeah. Yeah, another thing we've touched on earlier is stop asking questions.

Lisa

That's like I should have a tattoo of that on my one, if I only ever had one bit of advice. for anyone, it would just be shut the fuck off in the middle of a meltdown, just stop talking. Please stop talking. Yeah.

Mark

And it gets it's so tempting to try and find out what it is, but you're not going to be able to get the answers you need. in that situation. So with India, again, I've talked about this before, Bluey is a really good way of regulating India because it's familiar. And um it's comforting to her. So very often I won't talk. I'll just lead her towards her bedroom and I'll put on bluey. I won't speak. Or I'll put her in a little nook. She's got a little...  in a cupboard. She's got a little sensory nook with like duvets and sensory lights and that kind of thing and lots of squishies that she hasn't destroyed with her builders' fists. And then pop on Bluey, and that that tends to help. And with with Otto Like I know with Otto, again, it's just learning how they respond differently, right? So with Otto, it's about getting him out of his head and doing something physical, getting him into the physical So I've told the story before where he was in meltdown and we were in public and I had a frisbee on it and I just went go long and I threw the frisbee and he ran after it and he caught it. It was like magic. He just snapped out of it because physical thing, He throws it back to me. I know what this is. This is familiar to me. This is comforting for me. I'm in my body rather than my brain. Now, if I'd have done that with Jay. He would have not been happy about that at all. And India, similarly. So it's about working out what works for each of them. I mean, did you have those sort of shortcuts for yours?

Lisa

Yeah, and it's exactly what you said. It's about getting them back into their body because when we're in a meltdown, we're in our head, we're not rational. And one of the things that used to work for my kids like not all the time, was to give them a fizzy sweet. So put a fizzy sweet in your mouth and it actually triggers the ventral vagal nerve, which is what makes us go, oh, okay, I'm in my body. Heart rate starts to slow down and our breathing says And it's just it's that shock. And it can be something as simple as that. That's similar to your frisbee in a way. It's like, okay, it's that I need to bring myself back. But yeah, an occupational therapist told me that once.

Mark

That's a wicked idea because you can't do a frisbee in a supermarket.

Lisa

You can't do frisbee in a supermarket. No, you can grab some fizzy sweets though. It's a sensory distraction. As I say, it stimulates the vagal nerve. And then also, when you're chewing, you've got to regulate your breathing.

Mark

I'm gonna like sour sweets as well. Like, like, I've said they like because it's like, what the f?

Lisa

Like, yeah, exactly.

Mark

Yeah, it brings you back into your body. That's an incredible idea

Lisa

Or a very cold, like glass of water. Obviously, that's not always ideal in a meltdown to hand the child at all.

Mark

Well, it's not seen as a treat either. No, it's not seen as a treat. Whereas, like, Otto is driven by sweets.

Lisa

You know, if our child's having a meltdown and we're feeling dysregulated, a really cold drink of water can help us to bring us, or even a hot drink of water, or an ice cube as well, like ice weather as well. Perfect. Yeah, yeah.

Mark

That's a really good suggestion. I love that one. Another one that I cannot stress enough, and it's mainly for talking to my former self, is do not tell them off for how they're responding in this situation. And it took me a long time to learn that, particularly with Jay, when it's rude or aggressive. And again, when you're attracting disapproval in public and you feel like you need to be seen to be doing it, you're only making matters worse by doing that because they're not doing this voluntarily. So telling them off for something they have no control over is going to make things worse. It's going to bring in shame to the situation as well, because they're not trying to be naughty.

Lisa

No.

Mark

And of that feeling of injustice as well.

Lisa

And also, I think consequences afterwards as well. You know, sometimes when we're parenting, we feel like there has to be a consequence. And I work with a lot of families where two parents aren't parenting the same. So you might get one parent who maybe Can understand it a little bit more, but another parent is like, well, no, there needs to be a consequence for smashing that window or breaking that guitar So but again, like you said, it doesn't work because it's not like next time it happens they're going to remember that. Yes, exactly. Because they're not using the thinking part of their brain. So again, you can't rationalise with someone who's having a meltdown. You've got that shame. So you can't telling someone they're going to be grounded and It's going to make absolutely no difference to the next time they have a mouthpiece.

Mark

And it isn't about thinking, you know. But it will make a difference to this one, and it's not going to be a positive one. And it's not going to be a good one. It's going to go to shit. From personal experience. And it is, it is hard. It's a mindset shift when you're parenting because you inherit that parenting methodology like you're saying, of saying uh of thinking, you need to learn not to do this again. There needs to be consequences because when I was parented, that's the way things worked, okay. I was punished for stuff that was perceived as naughty. And typically it would work because I'd be like, Okay, I'm not doing that again 'cause my dad's gonna go ape shit. And early on for me, I think there was a like little voice in my head And I think it's true of a lot of parents of neurodivergent kids of going, you're letting them walk all over you. You're letting them get away with this, you know. And that is this little echo of parenting past, isn't it? This little  ghost of the... the ghost of all of your ancestors going, This is not our how an Allen exists in the world. Just judging you.

Lisa

Absolutely. And I think we're I think as a generation of parents, we are the first generation, I think, of parents who are starting to parent on your divergent kids like that. I think quite a bit older than you, but I think it is. I think we are it's hard for us because we are forging a path. We are forging the way forward for parenting. And it's not easy because, like you said, we have got all of that history attached to how parenting should be and the understanding of autism and that neurodiversity affirming movement that we're kind of all part of now. It's all very new. So it's completely understandable to feel that pressure and have that little voice going, you're not going to let them speak to you like that, are you? You know, that's not okay. And even now, I you know, I still get it.

Mark

Yeah, it's just it's programmed in us. Yeah, absolutely. It's hardwired and it's a really difficult thing. But you do build up a resilience to it, I think. And I also think it has... the impact it's had on my relationship with Jay has been pretty big as well because I'm not sort of fighting fire with fire. And I'm not building up that sense of shame in him and the feeling of injustice in him. Once that moment has gone, and I've not told him off or made him or introduced consequences. He very often now, maybe not very often, but he sometimes now comes to me to sort of repair that. So he'll sometimes come to me and say, I'm sorry about that. Not all the time.

Lisa

No, but even just starting to do that is massive.

Mark

And I know he does that with Tam as well. So then you're getting this sort of that healing. time between you, which is really important, I think, for everyone. And I don't think I'd get that if I was punished, because the feeling of j injustice would

Lisa

Be too strong, and justice is the same.

Mark

Yeah, and they carry that as well. That all layers up, you know. It's like this guy's an ogre, he'll never receive my apology.

Lisa

And repair is important. Repair is a really important part of that. But like you've pointed out, you can't force that. That has to be something that they learn over time. And being able to have that conversation with you, I think, is amazing. I think that's really good.

Mark

The final thing that we can do to try and help to navigate meltdowns, which we again we talked on earlier touched on earlier. Understand what it is that is potentially the trigger for this. And giving them access to whatever regulates them as soon as possible. As soon as possible. So if they're getting triggered by the supermarket, ditch your shopping trolley and get the hell out of there. you know, order online, back at home in the safety of your house. Whatever it is, do not feel obligated to push through with something that you're currently in the middle of if it's causing the dysregulation.

Lisa

Yes, really good point. And that's like your story with Jay at the Easter egg hunt. It's like knowing when to step away from something. when to go, yep, we're not going to do this. And yes, supermarket, I think, is one of the wor one of the worst places. I think we just like you said, we started doing the big shop online when Barney was about six or seven, I think. We'd had a few meltdowns where things had been moved in the supermarket. So his salt and vinegar crisps weren't where they usually were, and that was like, yo And obviously you've got all the other stuff of the sensory and the overhead lights. And then we'd had somebody come close to the trolley and he'd growled at them. That was his favorite thing to do when he was like getting close. He was like, just growl at these people And I was like, right, I'm done. I'm done.

Mark

Yeah. Well, that's the sign though, isn't it? Right? It's like you're doing it before it absolutely gets to that breaking point. So it's like, this is it, this is the sign that we need to just leave leave the shopping here.

Lisa

And you're on about like giving them sources of regulation. I think also there's a lot of shame attached to the sources of regulation themselves sometimes. So giving your child a screen because you know that that's going to stop the meltdown. But the judgment for giving a child a screen or a phone in a in a restaurant, if anyone ever goes to a restaurant, 'cause we didn't wherever, you know, someone's house or a party, or things that you know are going to regulate them but that are seen as. Yeah. And it's that it's that shame and being able to put that aside and say, no, I know this regulates my child, and so I'm going to use it.

Mark

Yep, I'm going to be taking my children On holiday, on my own, abroad, in less than a month's time. And I am going to need everything that I have available. Fizzy sweets are now definitely number one on the list. But screens and it's yeah, basically whatever it is that I can get to regulate them. I'm not going to be able to use a Frisbee in an airport, so I'm going to have to think about something else. Something else that is going to something physical for Otto to do.

Lisa

Those like um those like juggling beanie balls or something like that.

Mark

Yeah, fidgets. They're gonna be a bunch of fidgets. And uh yeah, it's gonna be I'm already. I just had a moment this morning of going, what have I done?

Lisa

What am I doing?

Mark

We'll do it. We'll be fine. It's the journey I'm more worried about rather than while we're there, because while we're there, we can... You know, we're not really in public, we can stay in the cabin and like venture out when we need to. But I should do like a whole summer series of it.

Lisa

You should, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. That's amazing.

Mark

But yeah, it's about it's about getting them access to whatever it is that regulates them as soon as possible and working out what that is and not feeling ashamed of doing that. It's like your number one priority is your kids and trying to get them out of meltdown. Or stave off meltdown. So don't feel any shame of doing that to keep everyone safe and regulated.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, in every episode of Neuroshambles, I like to look at the positives of the topic of the week. There are very few positives. to meltdowns, really. They're pretty pretty harrowing for both the child and the parent and any onlookers caught up in the drama very often as well. As you said though, one of the positives is that it is useful communication. That it's a sign that everything is too much. But once you've reached the point of meltdown, the cat is now out of the bag. It's like, you know, you're not going to be able to put things back very easily, but it gives you clues, right? It gives you an insight into what it is. And very often a lot of what I've learned about my child's neurotypes and how they present has been from deconstructing what happened. And like retracing your steps, right? Like, it's like Poirot. You look at the clues and then put them all together and go, okay, this is what led to that. And I find that that deconstruction helpful. Absolutely, yeah.

Lisa

It's the debrief, isn't it? It's the debrief and then it's the risk assessment next time. So it's like, okay, this is one of the things that we realize. So next time we're almost going to put make put something in place to try and stop that. So it is it's is communication. And it's another positive is, I think we touched on it before, but it's actually sitting with your child through the meltdown and actually through those big feelings and that they know it's safe to have those feelings, that we're not shaming them for it. And in my generation, it was like you super nanny, go and sit on the naughty step if you have those and leave you alone to handle those behaviors. We're not doing that. A child doesn't actually learn from that. So one of the positives is actually helping to realize it's safe to have those feelings and an adult isn't going to tell them off or put them somewhere else to deal with.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa

But there are very few positives to meltdowns, I agree.

Mark

No, we're trying.

Lisa

We're trying. We're desperately trying.

Mark

But you know, as they get older, I think, and they start to be able to advocate for themselves and they start to understand what their needs are, I think that definitely helps. And hopefully, the more we understand and the more we can communicate to them, the more we're equipping them with those tools so that they can go through their adult life being able to minimize meltdowns as much as possible.

Lisa

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what all three of mine now do. They decide: is it worth being dysregulated or not, or am I going to avoid it? That's a life skill. And I think, you know, if we're able to give them that, then that's, you know, that's a really positive thing.

Mark

Yeah, which gives me so much hope. You have no idea. It's like talking to you, it's like, okay, this is, yeah, this is what I want. you know, for my kids to be able to do. So it's great to know that those strategies work.

Lisa

Yeah, from jumping out the window to now deciding I'm going to go to this club, but I'm going to be a bit dysregulated afterwards. That's a You know, that's a big step, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, that's massive. Yeah, that is massive.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity Champions.

Mark

Okay, Neurodiversity Champions time. These are the people or organizations that are doing miraculous things in the realm of neurodiversity. Do you have any neurodiversity champions for us, Lisa?

Lisa

Yeah, but you've actually named him already. So the lovely Pete Wharmby.

Mark

Oh, right. Okay. Yeah.

Lisa

Yeah. He's got a book coming out actually the week after me. And I've had the privilege of reading it.

Mark

Oh, have you?

Lisa

Yeah, it's about school and kind of what because obviously that's a massive thing at the moment. And it is just such an amazing book. I'm really looking forward to reading it. Honestly, it's going to change it's just going to change things so much. Pete is like forging forward with it.

Mark

Oh, he's phenomenal.

Lisa

Yeah, it's brilliant. Brilliant. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it because it is so brilliant.

Mark

Really fantastic. If you don't already know, he's been a Neuroshambles guest multiple times, but is a fantastic advocate. And it's talking to Pete - who is so clearly able to articulate what he has experienced as a neurodivergent adult, but also as a child and how that presented itself when he was growing up - has really helped me to understand what my kids are potentially going through and what I can do to help to navigate their neurodivergency. So yeah, it's always lovely to give Pete a shout out. Thanks for that. So, yeah, if you want to pre-order that book that is called Different Minds: How We Can Help Our Autistic School Children Thrive. I'll put a link in the show notes. That is the second book that should be on your pre-order list. The first book that should be on your pre-order list, and one that I've actually had the pleasure of reading in advance, is of course yours Lisa. So you're my neurodiversity champion because your book, Parenting Your Autistic Child: Permission to Do It Differently, is wonderful. I love it because it's so neuroaffirming, but it's also positive, right? It permission to parent differently is it's something that kind of underpins the Neuroshambles ethos as well. So when I read it, it was just like, yeah, this is, you know, really reassuring. that there's evidence because you talk you know, that you give scientific basis to some of the things that we we sort of do by instinct a lot of the time. Which is wonderful. So, I know that a lot of neuroshamblers are gonna get a lot out of it. So, I'm gonna put a link to that one in the show notes. That's out before Pete Wharmby's. So, you've got a week to read that one.

Lisa

Yeah, and then pre-order now.

Mark

So, when's it available?

Lisa

So publication is the 27th of August. Pre-orders are really important. And people don't, I didn't realise this until I started being an author is that pre-orders like kind of tell the algorithm to show it to more people okay parents and and then that tells retailers whether to stock it or not. And if you preorder, you also secured like the lowest price before publication. So and you won't pay anything till it's dispatch. So that's my little plug for preordering. Yeah, I've already preordered mine.

Mark

I'm very happy to do so. So that will be dropping at the end of August, which is great But just tell us a little bit more about it.

Lisa

Yeah, it's exactly like you said. It just what it says on a tin, really, and it's showing parents that the way they do parent that parenting differently, there is a reason why it works because we have a lot of shame, I think, attached to how we parent differently and how it's labelled as bad parenting for our kids. But like you said, there's scientific evidence that shows that we're parenting our kids' nervous systems and everything that we're doing, those things that we instinctively do, like giving screens or cooking that beige meal because we know that it's going to actually get something in there to me or all of that stuff that we Do feel a lot of shame over, there's a reason why it works, and I want parents to really feel validated and understand the why. And I'm really glad that you said it feels like a positive book because that really was my aim, was to show parents that actually our kids are amazing and they can do amazing things. And there's a bit of my own life in there, and my kids' stories are in there, and the children and pet families I've worked with. So each chapter really has a little story about a family or my family to kind of Make it real life for parents.

Mark

You've been in the trenches. You've got the scars to prove it. So it's important, you know, it's important to be able to talk from lived experience.

Lisa

Yeah. And yeah, it's quite interactive as well. So parents will like work through activities as well so that they feel they've got something tangible at the end. and family manifesto that they can kind of go, right, this works for my family because every family is different. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic Wins

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins. Now, these are the things that for neurotypical families would not be worthy of a mention, but sweet Jesus for us neurodivergent families. They are epic wins, and I want to shout them from the rooftops. So, do you have any tiny epic wins for us, Lisa?

Lisa

Yeah, I was thinking really hard. I think now my kids are older. I was thinking, gosh, it's hard to think of any, but actually, there was something the other day. and that will sound nothing to neurotypical families. And I had bought a phone holder for my car and it didn't it didn't fit. It was the wrong one. And then I remember just turning to my husband and saying, Oh, well, one of the kids can have it for one of that for their cars And then I got this like stomach flip because I realize all three of my kids drive cars now. And I never thought that that would ever be possible. Like when they were young, I just couldn't imagine it. particularly my PDA son. So that moment just felt really huge to me. And it was like, wow, my kids drive and they've got a car.

Mark

That's amazing. Yeah, that is an epic win.

Lisa

That's my tiny epic win.

Mark

Yeah, and neurotypical family is big deals. Like, dude, you don't know where we've come from. Exactly. Yeah. I've got a tiny epic win. And that is Otto recently being able to articulate what caused the meltdown. Because recently I got dinner ready, and he, when he saw what dinner was. He started panicking and crying uncontrollably. Now, that's not because I'm a bad cook. My cooking's so bad, I trigger meltdowns. No, it wasn't. It wasn't that. He sort of. We normally have pasta on a Monday. Only Otto doesn't like pasta for whatever reason. So I have to cook him sausage sandwiches, right? That's the thing. We had a bit of a disaster with the food shop, they didn't deliver the sausages. I only saw realized on the day, so I had to make him pesto pasta. Now it's not his preference, but I have some sometimes been able to shepherd it through Because he will just eat it because he's hungry and that's okay. The big issue here was the accompanying dough balls, right? So my kids love the Pizza Express dough balls. From the supermarket. But again, there was a chit show with the shop, and we had a substitution. My kids will not accept any other dough balls. It is unforgivable. It has to be the Pizza Express ones. And they were replaced by Asda dough balls. So when Otto walked in, expecting to see sausage sandwiches and pizza express dough balls, he looked at the food and he saw pesto pasta and Sub-par dough balls, and it was just too much. So he literally just burst into tears and ran out of the room. So I gave him some space because I've learned not to chase after him and try and work out what was going on, order him down to eat his food and just to get over it. Which is what I want to do. Do you know what I mean? It's like, come on, guys. But I didn't. I gave him space and he came back down again. And he was really clear on what caused it because I didn't actually know. As you say, it's this drip feed normally. There's a number of different things. It's the end of the day. This is the final straw. And he just said, Daddy, I don't like change. And Monday is normally sausages. So, not only do I have pasta, but there are different dough balls as well. So, two things have changed. And it was like for him to be able to tell me that was huge for me because normally he wouldn't be able to do that. And I'd not really thought about it. Like I say, the clues are always there. I'd not really thought about it. I was just trying to feed three children to keep them alive. That's my criteria. So when he put it like that, that made perfect sense. And I sort of, you know.

Lisa

That's amazing. How amazing that he could tell you that.

Mark

Yeah. Gives me a bit more hope that he's going to be able to anticipate what might cause a meltdown in the future and be able to advocate for himself when he's older. maybe always have a packet of Pizza Express dough balls in the freezer. Just stock up on the Pizza Express dough balls.

Lisa

It matters. It's Captain Bird's Eye in our house for everything.

Mark

Whatever gets us through it, isn't it, basically?

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, what are the flip moments now? These are the the things that our neurodivergent kids will say or do that completely flummox us and bewilder us. And I always like shining a light on some some of these. Have you got any what the flip moments?

Lisa

Again, I was thinking really hard because obviously the kids are older now, so nothing recent, but then just this popped into my head. I don't know if it's a what the flip moment, but it was at Christmas time, I think when Barney was quite little. And he kept going around doing this like impression. And it was like a mob like a mob boss. And he was talking about these wise guys, wise guys, wise guys. We were trying to wake up. What are you talking about? And then we realized that they'd been teaching at school the Nativity. And so he'd got a little bit confused with the three wise men. And somewhere along the way, whether it was from an advert or what, I don't know. We were getting this wise guys, right.

Mark

Three wise guys? That's hilarious. I would love to see. Did he do that at the Nativity? That would have been hilarious. He's got like turns up to the baby Jesus as one of the three kings and goes, "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse".

Lisa

That's exactly the accent of Jesus. It was at the time where I'd been watching Bugsy Malone quite a bit. Okay. Yeah, yeah. My sister was in it. So I think the two things became a bit merged.

Mark

Amazing. That's wonderful. I've got a few what the flip moments, as always. One of them, again, with Otto sort of being better able to articulate what's going on, I called him down for dinner. I've got this sort of sing-song-y voice that I use because I've realized that shouting, they don't always respond. So I sing I sing their names and they like perk up and they come downstairs, but he didn't respond for ages. And eventually he came down and I said, "Why did you ignore me?" And he said, "I wasn't ignoring you. I just didn't want to hear what you said". It's like, all right, tell it as it is. You know, I like it. Yeah, fair. I can't disagree with anything you just said there. Fine. Another one I had with India recently was we were talking about her recent school report and her issue with maths. And I said, "Are you saying that you don't like maths?" And she went, "No... I'm saying I hate maths". All right, yeah, let's get the record straight. It's not just a discrete like, you know, next level hatred of it. Again, I love her plain talking. The final what the flip again was from India, where It was just again this summer, and it's hot and just the end of school year. And I'm getting a lot of pushback on everything at the moment. Every time I ask them to do something, there's pushback, and I was, I was hot. and tired and exasperated, and they just went, "Oh, can you stop giving me grief?" And India went, "It's not called grief It's called independence". It's like, wow, that perfectly captures what is going on in the mind of a PDA child right there. And again, you can't argue with that, can you? It's like, no, you're right. You're absolutely right. I yield to your superior logic. It's never dull.

Lisa

No.

Mark

Okay, that is it for the end of this episode of Neuroshambles. Firstly, as always, Lisa, thank you so much for coming on and shining a light into this topic of the week. It's always a privilege to be able to hear your perspective.

Lisa

Well, thank you for having me. We got there in the end, technical problems and all.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Also, to Neuroshamblers far and wide for listening and for spreading the word and for saying nice things via email. Hello at neuroshambles. com. or via the socials on Instagram, Facebook or TikTok. Please subscribe if you haven't already. You'll probably, hopefully, receive some updates throughout the summer. when I take a bit of a hiatus from Neuroshambles to just deal with the summer holidays. I think that's pretty much it now. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.