Taking Our Neurodivergent Kids Abroad | Rebecca Huseyin

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode 63 of Neuroshambles - the podcast that aims to shine a light into the bewildering world of parenting neurodivergent kids. I am delighted to be back with a fourth season after what seems like bloody ages away from you all. Sorry about that.

But thanks for bearing with me during my brief hiatus because I definitely needed it. Not only have I been navigating the summer holidays and the inevitable back to school turbulence with my lot, but I've also been taking a little bit of time to make a few changes around here. You might have already noticed the new theme tune and have had a bit of a rebrand to spruce things up a bit.

The main change, though, I think, is that I'm planning to reduce the massive amount of effort that it takes to edit an episode by basically Not really editing that much. Essentially, I'm going to be releasing this pretty much as it's recorded with a few minor tweaks here and there. That does mean You may notice it's a little bit more rough around the edges than previous seasons, but hopefully, it also means that I can sidestep the murky quagmire of burnout I was flirting with towards the end of last season.

There is an additional upside as well. Doing it this way also makes it easier for me to release Neuroshambles as a video podcast. So, for any of you who would prefer to consume it with your eyes as well as your ears, Check it out on YouTube and subscribe to the channel if that's your bag.

And then you're not going to miss any new episodes when they're released. Anyway, that is enough of the preamble for now. Let's lean in and embrace the shambles.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

This week's guest is a neuroshambles regular, having appeared on the last two seasons of the podcast. I love chatting to her about the neuro-chaotic stuff going on in her household, so I thought she'd be perfect to kickstart the new season. As well as being a parent of a neurodivergent son, she is a prolific advocate, a trainer for the PDA Society, and she writes a wonderful blog called A Boy Less Ordinary, which you should definitely check out if you haven't already done so.

I am delighted to be able to. Welcome back. It's Rebecca Huseyin.

How are you doing, Rebecca?

Rebecca

I am so happy to be here, Mark. You're literally the only person that is willing to give me airtime and to let me talk. I mean, honestly, it's a pleasure.

Mark

We had that, didn't we, when we were sort of talking about doing this episode? It just felt so good to talk to someone about what we've been through.

Rebecca

Yeah, exactly.

Mark

Which we'll get into. We will get into that when we talk about the topic of the week. Before we do that, I think it's important for us to learn a little bit about your setup.

So that everyone knows what neurodivergencies are at play at your end. So, talk us through it. What have you got there?

Rebecca

All of them, I think, if we just assume everything. So yeah, my son, he is 15 years old. He is, he doesn't have a PDA diagnosis, but he is.

Don't want to die on that hill. He definitely is. So he has an autism diagnosis.

He's also very ADHD, but again, doesn't have a diagnosis for that. But that's that's kind of what we're living with. Have a neurodivergent husband undiagnosed, but There are many signs.

I I am like you, I just I sort of self diagnose as that neurotypical really.

Mark

Oh do you? Really?

Rebecca

Well, I I do. That's the thing.

Mark

See, now I know what it's like when people are like, "are you?" to me. Because I'm like, "are you?"  Okay.

Rebecca

But then when you look at the s when you look at the signs and pretty much all of your friends are ND, your family are ND. And you know but do you know what? I'm happy to be the token neurotypical in any situation really. But yes, so we live on the south coast of England with our dog. I'm sure she'll make an appearance.

Mark

Nice.

Rebecca

And as of Last week, I'm officially a home educator.

Mark

Oh, okay. That is news.

Rebecca

But anyway, so yeah, that's what's going on.

Mark

Nice.

Rebecca

That's what's going on.

Mark

As it's the first episode of this season, I should probably reintroduce my My lot because obviously, you know, any Neuroshambles regulars will know. But if you're new to the podcast, I have three Neurodivergent kids, they are all diagnosed.

Autistic ADHD, but with wildly different presentations of that blend. So I've got Jay, who is 13, Otto, who's 11, and India, who is now nine. So it's all going on.

My ex -partner Tam, who is the kid's mum, is also late diagnosed neurodivergent, again autistic ADHD, and I am an undiagnosed neurotypical. I think is the way that I'm going to phrase that. Hence the Neuroshambles title of this, because there's all different neurotypes trying to communicate in our household, and it's a It's all a bit nuts.

So the Neuroshambles took hold, and here we are in season four. So I think that's it. Thanks for introducing me to your setup.

Let's crack on with the topic of the week.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So when I recorded the last episode of Neuroshambles, I was just about to embark on a holiday abroad with My three kids , which was my first proper holiday with them as a solo parent. So I think you could charitably describe that as ambitious. If you were being less charitable, you might call that absolutely fucking nuts.

But it was booked. I decided to book it way, way in advance. I booked it.

I went "Right. There's a little flag in the ground. We're going to aim at that and let's see how we get on" So there wasn't any turning back, really.

Rebecca

fortune favours the brave.

Mark

Exactly. This is what I thought. Anyway, over the summer. Quite a few listeners messaged me to ask me how I got on because I think they're genuinely worrying for my safety.

So I thought it would be a good topic to discuss on the first episode back. Now, obviously, I was chatting to various different guests when I'm planning season four. And when I spoke to Rebecca, she mentioned that she just returned from her own holiday abroad with her PDA son, which she described as.

Awesomely terrifying. Which

Rebecca

Is that what I said?

Mark

Yes. Which had me intrigued. You also said. You might still have PTSD from it, which obviously, like, I've got a lot of sympathy for, but at the same time, I'm thinking this is going to make a great episode.

Rebecca

Oh my god.

Mark

So we can swap stories from our holidays and we have a mutual debrief. So here we are. That's what this topic of the week is about. It's essentially taking neurodivergent kids abroad. What could possibly go wrong?

Rebecca

I feel like I should apologize for going on holiday, to be honest with you, because I just know there's so many families that Don't even have that as an option.

Mark

I know, I was going to say, yeah, yeah, there was definitely like a part of me was reluctant to talk about this. because I know that a lot of neuroshamblers have very different circumstances. So the thought of taking their kids abroad is absurd.

For multiple reasons, but like, not least of all, a financial one, because I mean, for anyone with neurodivergent kids That is not conducive to hoarding wealth, is it? Disposable income is not really a thing in the neurodivergent community. So that's one reason.

And secondly, because it's a massive leap into the unknown. For any kids who struggle with changes in routine or difficulty with transitions, or particularly for those that don't really have an awareness of safety or at risk of eloping. I can imagine that a holiday abroad with them in a country that speaks an entirely different language is a parent's worst nightmare.

Rebecca

It's like taking your own personal shit show on tour, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

If you think things are hard enough at home or in your own hometown. But do you really want to kind of get people to buy tickets to see that?

Mark

Like, you know what? This feels too easy. I'm going to introduce loads of random variables and see how I get on.

That's not what went through my mind, genuinely. But I thought. I have noticed that the capacity to do things with my kids fluctuates, right?

And it varies. And I think it's entirely dependent on where they are at that moment in time. So I know that for a lot of families, that's just not going to be possible.

And that's perfectly valid. Like, you know, you do you, and you know, you do whatever you can to keep yourself sane and make yourself safe. But three years ago, Tam and I took them all away together.

And it was hard work , but we got through it. And, you know, actually, I think on reflection, it was a positive. Episode of three of Neuroshambles was about that, and that covers that in more detail.

But the year after, Was when Jay really hit burnout, and there was no way that I'd have even thought about taking him on on holiday. Like, I couldn't even really suggest going to the park. It was, you know...

Rebecca

I think most of us have been there, haven't we? Where we've just got used to that. This is another groundhog day.

And like you say, even going to the supermarket isn't something you didn't even think about, do you?

Mark

No.

Rebecca

Your world just shrinks, doesn't it? It just shrinks down.

Mark

This year, though, it felt different. I don't know. I just felt like we're in a better place, and it seemed like it was more feasible.

And I just. I thought, fuck it. And I knew it wasn't going to be easy.

But I do think, as a parent of neurodivergent kids, we are q uite finely attuned to what is and isn't possible with our kids in any given moment. Not just like day to day or week to week, but minute by minute sometimes

Rebecca

Yeah and it's knowing, it's knowing, isn't it, as well. that what what is possible today, what you've done today, absolutely isn't going to happen tomorrow, or vice versa. You can you can sort of sniff it, can't you?

Mark

You can

Rebecca

your spidey senses are tingling about this. Yeah, again.

Mark

So that's kind of why I was like, you know what? I'm going to take away this year and see. Next year may well be different again.

Who knows? I'll re-evaluate near the time. But for now, I thought we could manage it.

I think choosing where to go is one of the hardest things. It certainly was with my lot. Like, I already know where you went.

Rebecca, but if you tell Neuroshamblers where you went this time and why you chose this, because it seems like, frankly, an insane choice of holiday destination for a PDA kid.

Rebecca

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was. We took a 14-hour flight to Japan. We went to Tokyo and Osaka. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, I just like

Rebecca

I know

Mark

and I've yeah that is a big that is a biggie um because you've got Not only, right? Well, a 14-hour flight fills me with absolute horror. And again, we'll get onto that.

Rebecca

It should. And it should, Mark.

Mark

But also, you're going to a culture. in Japan that is so ordered and so structured, and there's so many as far as I understand it, so many quite rigid unspoken social rules For a PDAer, I can only imagine that that's like a red rag to a bull. It would be with my lot.

Rebecca

You'd think so.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

I know you'd think so. But Jem 's adored Japan for many years. So his his kind of secondary special interest is arcade machines .

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

And the history the history of the big companies. So for example your Nintendo's, your your Ban Dai, Namcos your Segas, all of those things. So he has loved Japan. A lot of kids get into anime and kind of get into Japan that way. But he got into Japan via arcade machines. So he had done an enormous amount of research over the last, say, three or four years.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

And he knew. He knew what it was like, you know.

Mark

So that's why you chose it. So he was basically like, This is where we're going. And obviously, from a PDA. For a PDAer, it was like, okay, if you're going to go anywhere, we need you... you need them on board, right? That's the crucial thing, I think. You can't just go, you know what, guys, we're going to Sri Lanka this year.

You like, it's not going to wash. You don't choose. Like, I didn't, I never got consulted by my parents when I went on holiday.

They didn't go, you know, tell us where you want to go. Jesus Christ, it was Bognor or nothing.

Rebecca

Is it Devon again, Mum? Is it Devon? Is it fucking Devon again?

Of course it is. Of course it is. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

But that my other half hadn't been very well. He's much better now. And he said, When I'm better, we're doing this.

We're doing a big family holiday. We're  throwing everything out. So we won't have any financial security ever again. And I said, darling, come on, let's do it.

I'm with you.

Mark

What could go wrong?

Rebecca

I remember the moment we were in the kitchen and they both went, Let's go to Japan. And I sort of said something very dramatic, you can't imagine, can you? As God is my witness, if you too want to go to Japan Then that's absolutely fine, but be it on your heads, whatever happens.

I'm just saying now, here and now in this moment, I'm not responsible for the shit show. And as we were going along, that's when we're booking it. And as Because Jem had to be involved in the physical booking.

Everything can know because.

Mark

Well, like finding the flights and stuff

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Oh, that sounds great because I it was a fucking nightmare for me. It was really tedious. So being able to outsource that would be marvellous.

Rebecca

But he can't um he he can't he he can't sort of relax about it and let a parent take over. This is the thing he's very much got to have his fingers. But yeah, that they they booked it and everything. And I think um Yeah, and then it was just I stuck my head in the sand and pretended it wasn't happening until about two weeks before and then realized it was And then did all the stuff they didn't want to do, like hacking and passports.

Mark

So my experience was very different for that. My experience was I had to get everyone on board again because I've got India, who's PDA. I've got Jay who's PDA.

Rebecca

Well, you've got three as well. Right,

Mark

But I'm juggling a lot of different. Different variables. So basically, Jay refused to go anywhere that was too hot.

That was a criteria. He went to Greece. We had a really good time in Greece, like a couple of years ago when we went, but He only remembers it was too hot.

And so that basically taints his memory of it. He gets, you know, it's a neurodivergent thing as well, like just feeling temperature very keenly. He's always hot.

So. Fine, can't be too hot. India insisted we had to go on a plane because she doesn't really remember it from last time, she thinks.

I mean, you know , so she wanted to go on a plane, but Jay hates long journeys, so it couldn't be too far. And then Otto needed lots of things to do. Keep him occupied, and I needed to not spend lots and lots of money.

Now, if you were to do a Venn diagram. I'm thinking in my head.

Rebecca

Did you feed that all into like chat GPT or something.

Mark

I actually did, yeah. I actually did. If you do a Venn diagram of all those things, there's one place in the middle that ticks all those boxes. And that's why we went to Denmark, which isn't a normal holiday destination.

It's not very typical, but it wasn't too hot, it wasn't too far away. Because it's only like 90 minutes on a plane, which is ideal. And there is this place called Lalandia Which sounds like made up like a fantasy realm in Lord of the Rings or something.

But it was it's it's basically like a Center Parcs, but a bit cheaper and a lot more Danish. It was, it was, it had like self-catering cabins. So that was really important.

Self-catering.

Rebecca

So that's the food. That's the food. Kind of

Mark

sort of self-catering cabins. L Loads of activities, it was a 90-minute Flight and also, crucially, once we got there, the journey from the airport was like a 20-minute cab ride, you know. So, yes, I'm thinking, like, door to door. Quick as humanly possible because that was the bit I was dreading, and so I found that place and I thought that's ticks all the boxes, and then I sort of tentatively just left it open. On my iPad with the most exciting pages up. I just left it to see if anyone would bite India...

Rebecca

You have a name for that. You strew.

Mark

Yes,

Rebecca

strewing.

Mark

I was strewing.

Rebecca

Amazing.

Mark

So I did that, and India was the first to bite, she was like, Where's this? Because you know, she was quite on board with that.

So then I was like, Oh, I've just been looking at this for a holiday. We looked at the website and then I took Otto through it. And then Jay, I sort of tentatively approached it, but he was up for going.

Again, if Jay wasn't up for going, we'd have been screwed. So As soon as he was on board, I was like, sweet. The good thing about the website is got pictures of everything, but also interior pictures of the cabins that you can stay in.

That was going to be crucial. So we made sure we saw the floor plan, we saw how big it was, we saw the rooms and who got to share. We decided who was sharing which rooms.

which was f fine. Once we got on board, like Jay's never shared a room before. Um, so I was really not like really genuinely impressed that he was okay with sharing a room with me.

So I booked it.

Rebecca

And then

Mark

kind of forgot about it and then panicked about it and then went in that order.

Rebecca

And that's kind of how it goes, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah. So

Rebecca

amazing.

Mark

So yeah, that's how we ended up going there.

Rebecca

But it's the research, isn't it? I think what you've just described as well is doing all that research with all the pictures and kind of timing the journeys and all of that because you can only do so much, but by God. As territoriators, we will do what we can to minimise any surprises, won't we?

Mark

And absolutely, absolutely. For them as well, for their neurotype. You know, Otto doesn't like surprises.

He wants to know what's available at all times. You know, Jay needs to kind of have a bit of certainty about. About where he's going to be to know that he's got some space on his own.

So I said, look, you know, we're sharing a room, but during the day, I will not go in that room. Okay, so that's still your room to go to. So, you know, negotiation, collaboration, you know, and but we got there.

Yeah, so that was just deciding. That's all the shit that just goes into deciding somewhere, not just like, where's cheap? Like, let's go.

Rebecca

And the sad thing is, you need a holiday. at the end of that. When you arrive, you actually need the holiday, but you can't quite have the holiday, can you? Because you're still doing what you do.

Mark

So once you've done that, you've decided and then it comes to the day and then it's the packing, which you kind of alluded to. The nightmare of packing for neurodivergent kids. Like packing anyway is shit.

It's shitty. No one wants to do it. It's hard.

It's boring. It's, you know, but packing for neurodivergent kids, oh. Because they need.

Familiar things around them, right? My kids all need stuff around them that feels comfortable, particularly if they have kind of issues with being in a different environment and transitions that Familiarity and those comforts that they have from home are so important, but you can't take them all. You can't pack everything.

Rebecca

You can't take your giant Dyson Cool Air fan on a plane to Japan, sadly, which is a real shame. It's been everywhere else with us around the UK, but sadly not this time. So how did you navigate

Mark

How did  you navigate the packing side of things?

Rebecca

I did as much as I could and then kind of left the big decisions till closer to the time. So I wasn't sort of like I didn't want to be dropping questions every every Couple of days. Oh, do you want to take this or this or this?

I knew what the key things were. I knew they were the non-cuddly toys. Two cuddly toys.

and a special blanket. But I also I wanted to whitt le it down. You know, he's a little bit better than he used to be about these you know, he he's he was just turning fifteen at the time and I was like, I wonder if I can push it.

So had a bit of a chat. And also I was terrified of taking the two cuddly toys to Japan, to Asia. You know, how many miles away that was.

Mark

miles away that was.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

So so I whittled it down to one, which I and he was great about it, absolutely fine about it, which I just wouldn't have been possible a few years ago. But one thing I have done before when we've when we've, you know, I don't know, been to Butlin's or whatever, whatever classy holiday we've had in the UK, um, I've actually taken the duvet until that was before Because I've been in a situation before when a Premier Inn or something. I don't like this duvet , it feels wrong.

It's scratchy. I mean, if that happens to you at 2 a. m. you're absolutely fucked because what are you going to do? You know, and I've been there, I've taken duvets off and just have it without the duvet cover. No, that feels weird. I'm too hot. I'm too cold.

So I was. I was kind of that close to taking a duvet cover. But then I thought, come on, it's a good hotel we're going to.

And I can't be I can't be doing I mean, I drew the lines. But fortunately, again, we were lucky enough that the hotel had the thread count that was PDA approved.

Mark

What the hell? What they actually told you the thread count of the duvet?

Rebecca

It did, well, it said something like Egyptian cotton something, and I thought, oh, that would do. I mean, it was wing and a prayer. But he wanted to bring an empty suitcase with us so that he could buy all the merch.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

So I have to for everything we bring, you are losing space to bring tat back.

Mark

Oh, nice, nice. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

So there was a bit of kind of give and take.

Mark

Awesome. Oh, yeah. Packing was a bit of a nightmare for me because again, well, I'm going on my own and I have to carry I have to be able to physically carry The stuff that we're taking, right?

So, obviously, the kids get their little carry-on, and then I had little carry-on, but then I carried, I got two massive rucksacks, and just... the thing is, right, my kids. Wear onesies and onesies are fucking massive and take up so much space in a rucksack. So like half of our allowance was taken up by onesies.

And Yeah, so there was that. I had onesies in there. I had to take they had massive plushies, you know, like squishmallows.

You know how big they are.

Rebecca

I had to take a squishmallow.

Mark

But I was my reasoning was that doubles up as a pillow. So if the pillows are rubbish, they can use a squishmallow, right? So they.

But that took up all of their onboard baggage. Okay. Um then uh I had to take the Switch, right?

That was that was my my one non-negotiable. We had to take the games console with us because without that Just, you know, it's a regulation tool. It's like entertainment.

Now, I can imagine that a lot of neurotypical families would Probably judge you for taking a games console on holiday.

Rebecca

Oh, let's leave our screens at home. Have a good time.

Mark

Mini golf instead, and we'll, you know, we'll go out and Take walks by the beach. It's dude. Like, you know, if that happens, it happens. But if it doesn't, I want the Switch as a backup, right? And that was actually really helpful, not just during the holiday, but also on the flight as well, because Jay could just hyper-focus on that and not get too dysregulated by all the other, just the shit show of the airport. Otto had a massive meltdown the day before, as well, because the Crocs that we got him for his holiday, which he tried on and seemed fine with, he decided at the last minute he absolutely was not fine with him.

Rebecca

You're triggering me.

Mark

Absolutely wasn't fine with those Crocs because they were patterned, and everyone was staring at him in Sainsbury's, right? Literally, absolute meltdown in Sainsbury's because he hated the Crocs he's wearing because he thought everyone was staring at him.

And I'm like... this is the day before. So he took his Crocs off. And walked around in Sainsbury's barefoot.

I mean, like, that's more noticeable to people, dude. I didn't want to point that out, but like, people are staring at you walking without Footwear. Anyway, that had to find Crocs at the last minute, which had to go to six different places to find Crocs that he would approve of.

Eventually got there. Ultimately, I meant that I finished packing at one in the morning the night before. So that was a nightmare.

And also, the thing I forgot. to mention was that in order to get us through the journey, the weight of the airport, the travel there and the first couple of days, I had to fill most of my luggage with snacks. Right?

Because that's

Rebecca

That's a very good point.

Mark

Like so many snacks, full, just full. It's like I'm some kind of traveling food vendor.

Rebecca

Yeah, but snacks are everything. They're not just sustenance, but there can be a meal replacement when there's no meal there. They can be a source of comfort, a source of distraction.

Mark

Entertainment as well.

Rebecca

And yeah, there you go. Yeah, they're so important.

Mark

So basically, it didn't take much of my own stuff. Onesies, snacks and a switch, and then just whatever else I could whack in alongside there. But we got there.

We got everything packed. We managed to get there. I think airports are uniquely dysregulated for neurodivergent kids if you think about it because there are so many people, and all of those people are in a rush or they're excited or both.

And there's like announcements going off and there's Fucking vehicles whizzing past, and um, like just the information. I get overwhelmed in an airport, and I'm obviously 100% neurotypical. So , so for our kids.

It's a lot. And there's a time element to it as well. So, how was Jem with that?

Rebecca

He doesn't respond well to time. Pressure. So we stayed up all night, the night before, and then left We left at something like three in the morning.

Well, I I I thought everybody could have let's all let's all go to bed about nine you know, this fantasy world I'm living in, where we all get a good couple of hours in, so we wake up tired but a little bit refreshed. And then we can, you know, so no, no, we didn't. We drove to our friends near the near the airport, had to do all the rigmarole of bags into different cars. Finally got to the airport.

I don't think we slept for about thirty eight hours.

Mark

Oh my god. And how is he with that? Like how's Jem with that? Because that Well, sounds like a nightmare.

Rebecca

He's so I wonder if there's a better word than stubborn. He's so committed to something like this. That actually he could he could have probably been on fire at the airport, but she wouldn't have wanted anyone to stop him, to put him out, because he had this kind of so you know, he he I mean, he's got he's In a way, and the word resilience, we're always taught we need to build resilience in them.

He's got incredible amounts of resilience when it's absolutely, don't they? So um yeah, he he just plowed on. He didn't want he didn't want us to... did you get special assistance because um we did.

At the end,

Mark

I did book special assistants, and thank Christ I did. Because when we left, right, I got again, like military planning. I was like, it is going to take we are going to get a cab to the train station.

The cab will take us like seven minutes. We'll get on the train. We'll go to Gatwick on the train.

That will take thirty eight minutes or however yeah, I think it was about thirty eight minutes. Then we'll get like a military planning. I brought an Uber to get us there, which is perfect.

Because you see the face of the driver, you see the car, you see them coming down the road. Everything is predictable. It's actually a really good thing.

Uber. So that was great. It's like, hey, Mohammed's here, let's go.

Like, he's our friend, right? Perfect. He took us to the station.

We got on the train. We got all the way to one stop before Gatwick, and then the train stopped on the platform. And we were making good time.

And then it waited at the platform for ages. I'm like, come on, just Like we're so nearly there.

Rebecca

Were your kids kind of were they switched on? Were they aware? They were after like quite

Mark

well because there was an announcement where you just gotta wait like a few more minutes. And then the same announcement came on again, and then like Otto's senses started tingling. You know, he's always looking for danger, right?

And this was a thing that he was particularly aware of. Then. They made another announcement, which was the same, and they went, Ladies and gentlemen, this train has been cancelled.

It was like, We were on the train. They cancelled the train while we were on it.

Rebecca

While you're on it.

Mark

So we. So then we had to get off the train, right? And everyone has to get off the train.

So can you imagine, right? Everyone is trying to get off the train at the same time. I've got shitloads of bags.

Rebecca

What are you looking like? Looking like sort of refugees kind of being bundled off the train.

Mark

I went full on, just like, all right, this is what we're doing. I grabbed all the bags, I shoved people out of the way. You know, I'm usually quite considerate, but I had to get a space.

On the platform, in a corner with all of our shit, so that we could put the kids in a corner and then just kind of wait until we worked out what was going to happen We all got off. Jay was just furious because the driver hadn't turned up, right? That's why the official reason they gave.

So he was furious.

Rebecca

Oh, they told you as well.

Mark

He was furious about it. He's wanting the driver's address, you know.

Rebecca

Right.

Mark

India is quietly furious.

Because it's very disruptive. There's a lot going on. Otto is very anxious, not just because of all the kerfuffle, but because of the time, right?

Because the next train is half an hour away, right? So we're now like we were on time to get to the airport two hours early. We're now half an hour later than that.

And I am panicking at this point because I know that Otto's super anxious. I know that the other two are kind of This is where the snacks came in handy. This is just like, get out of the high-value ones right from the off.

We've not even got to the airport, and the high-value snacks are coming out. Like, come on, guys, it's fine. The sweets are out already, right?

But that brought me time. We got on the next train, which was again rammed. It was not pleasant.

We got to the airport and we were half an hour late. Which, so, not half an hour late for the plane, but obviously you've got to check in two hours in advance. So we.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

I got there and we went to the check-in, had to do that. They made me take my switch out of my bag because it's got a battery in it and you can't put that in the hold. I didn't even think about that. I didn't think about that, but I literally

Rebecca

I didn't either.

Mark

I literally. I actually had no space in the rest of my bags to put the switch. Thank Christ.

And I'd never thought about this before, but this is genius. I was wearing cargo shorts with big baggy pockets, right? Which I hadn't utilized.

I hadn't put shit in the pockets. So

Rebecca

there's never a good time. And I'm going to just say this: cargo shorts. They look like shit, Mark.

I'm going to be honest with you. They're horrible. But, but, I think you have just realized Why?

Mark

Yeah. Exactly.

Rebecca

There's a purpose for them. I'm in awe. I'm actually in awe.

Mark

Right, so I couldn't put the switch anywhere, stuck it in my cargo shorts. You could barely tell. I was like, I've been missing out on all of these. I could get squishmallows in there next time. No one would know.

Rebecca

Wow!

Mark

I'm walking like John Wayne through the airport.

Rebecca

Could you get a Dyson fan there?

Mark

Probably. It's seriously. They're such voluminous pockets.

It's like Mary Poppins' carpet bag. So so anyway, we got got checked in. Fine.

And then we um we I went to special assistance and they'd been waiting for us because obviously I hadn't told them that we were going to be late, but we're on a list, right? So They went, oh, do you want, you know, you can go through that bit there, or do you want someone to walk you through? It's like, no, I really just want someone to walk me through.

Just, you know, just take me through it. I think it'd be a bit easier. So this.

angel appeared and basically was super calm and super friendly and w like said I'm gonna hold your passports to get you through it's like that's She's seen this shit before, right? She's seen this traveling circus before. So she took the passports and, like, basically.

Rebecca

These are her monkeys now. These are her monkeys.

Mark

Exactly. My circus, her monkeys. So she then guides us through and we sail through and then she takes so once we get past security, because that was the big issue, like security's Usually quite fraught. They got us through security and got us to her colleague, Alex, who went, I've been waiting for you. Do you want a buggy? I was like, yes, I do.

Rebecca

So

Mark

we got on a golf buggy and he's whizzed us to the gate. We were like, we did not have much time. Basically, he whizzed us to the gate and waited for us and then walked us to the front for the boarding because we were pretty much boarding by the time he got us there.

That's how late we were leaving it. And then we just swanned on it for felt like a celebrity. It was incredible.

Rebecca

Actually, that half an hour that you lost. In a way, kind of worked in your favour because once you got to the airport, it was bish, bash, boss, straight on.

Mark

I'm not... I don't advocate... any Neuroshambles

Rebecca

listeners. No.

Mark

Listening. I do not advocate for being half an hour late because it is also very stressful. But special assistance were wonderful and we got on the plane.

Rebecca

I think that's the key thing as well about special assistance. Because I was never really 100% sure in the past previous years, but if for getting you through security going on a weird little little kind of passageway at the back, and you can see all the other four saps standing there, you know, drinking their water hurriedly and all that kind of stuff, hiding their switches in their cargo pants. And you are just you're just walking past and kind of you know doing doing the little wave and just getting straight through

Mark

yeah

Rebecca

and then yeah and then we got we got transport to the gate as well so that is because how far a gate

Mark

They are, especially if you're in a hurry, or yeah, or or if your kids are sort of objecting to walking, which you know could have happened as well. You know, that's been known in my lot of like, you know, just walking at their pace and That's the pace that everyone has to walk. And there's no hurry up with neurodivergent kids, I find. You know, can we hurry up? No, it's like, no, it's not a thing. So,

Rebecca

and even with kids who aren't physically disabled, you know, and Jen doesn't have physical disability when he was younger. You know, sometimes his PDA legs wouldn't work.

Mark

Yeah, totally.

Rebecca

And so That's the thing, you know, and these aren't you can't suddenly make them work, can you? Um, when you're waiting for a plane. So, yeah.

Mark

No, so that was great. Um, the flight out for me An hour and a half. I planned that.

It was really, it was fine. There was negotiation around who got to sit next to who.

Rebecca

Right.

Mark

I don't know what it was like with you, but with Jay, he didn't want to sit next to a stranger and he didn't want to sit next to any of his family. I was like There's only one seat in the entire plane that has that privilege, and it's the pilot.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

And you are not the pilot. So you're going to have to sit next to someone. Who you're going to sit next to? And I. Basically, he in India didn't want to sit next to Otto because Otto's anxious and he's a bit much.

Rebecca

Yeah,

Mark

loud and in your face. And so I was like, obviously, I'll sit... I was better that I sat next to us anyway.

So they sat next to each other, and that was fine. That wasn't too much of an issue. How did you handle the seating situation on your plane?

Rebecca

Jem cannot sit next to a stranger. He will not tolerate it. He even gets wound up by his dad a lot of the time.

So we made sure we suit him

Mark

Window seat?

Rebecca

Yes, yes. And so that he can then when he's needs something to with his hands, he can just pull up Up and down the shade, up and down.

Person in front of you? Want some light? Up and down.

Up and down.

Mark

He's got his own fidget toy as well

Rebecca

Yeah, yeah. But it's really odd because obviously I know it's a it seems like a crazy long flight, but It went so well with Japan Airlines on the way out that he you know I told you he's a planner and he's over a couple of research he'd found that what the in-flight movies might be.

I don't know how he'd found that.

Mark

That's amazing.

Rebecca

Maybe you've been on the dark web. I have literally got no idea. So so he was all so he s we sat down, it was like, where are the cheap weird headphones I'm on and I'm looking at the plane where it is, I'm looking at these movies, I'm looking at so he He sort of structured

Mark

and he'd prepped for it. That's that's impressive.

Rebecca

Yeah, the food obviously, the food was the best plane food I've ever had, but Obviously, it was Japanese. So we had to get the, it was the high-value snacks.

Mark

Snacks,

Rebecca

high-value snacks to replace however many meals we had in 13 hours and 40 minutes. But honestly, It was apart apart from when he got restless and to do quite a lot of walking around the place.

Mark

Okay, and how was that perceived? Because you know When they're little, when they're really little, that's quite cute. You're like a little toddler walking up and down. The bigger they get, the kind of more annoying it is to other people.

Rebecca

The air crew, we just They just couldn't do enough for you, and by that was our first experience of being with quite a lot of Japanese people as well because we live in Dorset and there's not that many Japanese people. On the plane as well, a lot of people were returning back to Tokyo, that kind of thing.

So on the plane, we started. picking up on some of the mannerisms. So where every time the air stewardess would come over, it was, you know, there was a lovely bow, there's a big smile.

And within half an hour, Jem was like, Arigatō gozaimasu and I was like, great. So you did. How many I I brought you to your Duolingo for a year.

What Japanese do you know? And he was like, Arigatō gozaimasu Nothing else, nothing else, but he needs me to say thank you very much. So you know, I've got a polite son in Japanese.

Mark

Oh, did you

Rebecca

Shit in English.

Mark

Polite in English. Sorry, polite in Japanese, but absolutely sweary trooper in English.

Rebecca

Oh, God.

Mark

Did you wear sunflower lanyards in the airport?

Rebecca

Yes.

Mark

You did. See, that I was I wasn't I basically insisted on it with my lot and they didn't want to do it. They don't like wearing them. But I was like, no, this is actually going to help us to kind of get a little bit of additional help.

Rebecca

It was a maturity thing with Jem. When he was little, he didn't even like the feel of Lanyards. And he would kind of like, at the age of like, I don't know, seven, eight, nine, or whatever, he just couldn't bear it.

But when he was a little bit older and I kind of explained a little bit more when he took the time to actually listen to me, I was like, it's a visual sign, you know. And yeah, he did. And he has a little card that says I am autistic.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

And then it says something on the back. But he he he it falls out constantly. So when he wears it, you spend all your time looking for it. But sometimes I wear the lanyard.

Mark

That helped us as well. That helped us at the other end as well. Because we got to Denmark. An hour and a half flight. Seriously, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Rebecca

Mark, Mark, stop rubbing it. Stop rubbing my nose in it, okay? Seriously.

Mark

An hour and a half, it's like, you know, we're on a plane. We're on a plane. Oh, and just as it starts to get a bit.

Boring. Oh, we're off a plane. We're here.

So

Rebecca

let's be in Scandinavia, all relaxed and calm.

Mark

No, I know it was a while until I was relaxed and calm. So we got off, and then we've got to pick up the baggage and stuff. But I was waiting to get through passport control with the Sunflower Lanyard on, and someone but I was queuing up this time because I hadn't booked special assistance at the other end. Someone just came up and scooped us up and went.

Rebecca

Oh,

Mark

yeah, in Denmark, scooped us up and took us to the front of the queue. So we went and like went straight through. Again, just amazing.

Special assistance and sunflower lan... What a power combo that is, the sunflower lanyard, and special assistance. Then we got then we got an Uber to the place, and it was.

you know, uh it it we were there like crazy 20 minutes to the yeah, so I was very very pleased with myself That first night, a little smug. Didn't have any, we were too late for the supermarket, so I couldn't drink a celebratory beer, but I did eat some high-quality snacks.

Rebecca

Yes. Uber 's big in Japan. Uber's big in Japan as well.

We did the same thing. We'd sort of preplan that. Jem had the Uber app ready to go on his phone.

with my card attached to it. And again, it was brilliant. It was sort of like, you know, Ashimoto's arriving in his Toyota.

And yeah, it was almost it kind of like you say, it was a safe, familiar thing, exactly where the car is, something you could take. I think a lot of the things that worked well on the holiday were things that he could take ownership of and feel that he was in control of, because we all know control is super important. But it's also but it's also really hard when you're a parent and you're in you're all in Asia for the first time and you kind of want to retain a little bit of control.

So, yeah, we butted heads a little bit.

Mark

That's the thing, isn't it? Because with these sort of holidays, like, I quite like it, let's just go to a city and see what happens. Let's just see what we can find. And that is never going to be doable with.

Rebecca

Do you remember the days of pottering?

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, I haven't potted in ages. Oh, it's been a while since I had a potter.

Rebecca

A city break. Let's have a potter around Belgium and some beer and some waffles. You know, let's just steal a manequin pis or whatever it is. There's no pottering.

Mark

No, no, no. It's absolutely like nailed on. rigid itinerary. But that is what we need to get through, right?

Like that whole planning of the journey for me and the whole sort of planning of the journey uh for Jem is needed for that certainty, right? That removing, as Pete Wharmby put it when I spoke to him in a previous episode, it's removing vagueness is the important thing. It's it's being specific about stuff brings comfort and removes the anxiety a little bit.

The thing I hadn't really thought about that much about being difficult was probably the hardest bit, and that was the food. That was the just feeding them, keeping them fed. Because once the snacks had run out, and that was pretty quick.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Like feeding them because we're in a different country right now. That was difficult enough for me in Denmark. That is at least Western, though.

At least there is some Things that vaguely are similar to what you would find in the UK. I have an equivalent of Cheerios. I mean, they were categorically rejected by Jay.

Like, he that was not an option. But. You're dealing with a completely different culture and completely different food groups.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

So, how the hell did you feed Jem?

Rebecca

Well , this isn't going to sound glamorous, but it will sound relatable.

Mark

Oh, yeah.

Rebecca

So they have McDonald's. They have McDonald's.

Mark

Okay.

Rebecca

And they have Wendy's. And Yeah. So

Mark

For every meal?

Rebecca

Not every meal, Mark. But enough.

Mark

That wasn't said out of judgment,  I promise you.

Rebecca

I know it wasn't. I know. No, um what really saved us was well, I think to be honest, I think he had quite a snack-based week uh fortnight probably um uh but what really saved us was His research again, so we he knew all about the sort of traveler 7-Eleven culture, which is kind of what a lot of travellers on a budget do you know, like your sort of your souped up Tesco Express that we'd have on every corner or your Sainsbury's local if you're a little bit more middle class. And so they're amazing.

So you can go into a seven eleven And you can grab hot food, kind of you know, you can get your hot dogs or you can get not I want to say pasties, but not pasties. You can get all sorts of hot food There's microwave meals, microwaves where you can heat your food up and obviously all sorts of snacks. But actually, then it turns into a fun thing because you get your Google Translate out.

and you're starting to read all the crazy Christmas packets and the sweets. So that you you can spend an hour in a seven Eleven just going, Oh my God, look, I think these are Pringles It's like a kind of a free activity.

Mark

Okay, and then so he chooses what he wants from the so again, it's about choice, right? Yes, it's about

Rebecca

so much about choice, yeah. And and and what was um what was what was a good thing with all his kind of intense research was that he Had told us on the plane, you know, you can't eat in public. You can't eat on the street, you can't walk around eating.

So when we went to a 7-Eleven and we got something that was warm, they have a seating area, so Jeff was like, we need to go and sit over there. Don't open your crisps on the street. Don't eat that whatever it is.

Mark

He's telling you, he's not policing the Japanese. Yeah The Japanese don't need policing.

Rebecca

Yeah, policing us. Daddy, don't be drinking that smoothie there. We've got to go and sit down. So, again, it was this kind of embracing of the culture and of the rules of this higher authority,

Mark

which is amazing

Rebecca

that he just respected. So much respected evidence.

Mark

For a child, who doesn't naturally respect rules at home or at School, or you know, just in general, I mean, you know, as a PDAer, um, with that loss of Control or that feeling that you're not in control. But there's a.,, that's a curious thing, right? In that it's a higher authority, as you say.

Rebecca

Yes, and and I know that when they were younger, I think we might all I know you've certainly said this through the PDA society before, you know, sometimes that you're you can blame a higher authority, you know, in the days when they might listen to you, well, I'm really sorry, it's not my choice for you to go to school, you have to go to school, those sorts of things. But the higher authority , I think perhaps it was it was a sort of novelty, or perhaps it was because it was totally within his control. Because he'd done so much research. It they almost the rules almost became his rule.

Mark

Yes. And so he's in control. He's not in control of the rules, but he's in control of making sure you stick to them.

That's really good. So the food with the in terms of the food, you sort of had free he had free reign at the supermarket and you kind of did things that way, which is great. I didn't really have I actually had that once, and that was the end of the holiday when we were actually out of our accommodation.

Because we had some time to kill. When we were out of the accommodation, we had some time to kill. And I didn't like didn't have a kitchen to cook in, so I was like, we're just going to have to make it up.

Let's go into the supermarket and we'll choose stuff. And like you say, Google Translates amazing. Because you can get the camera feature on Google Translate, and then you can point it at any word, and it will translate it into English.

And that's You know, cause of much hilarity, and like which is brilliant. Um, and then they all chose what they wanted because normally I would not take them all to the supermarket. Because that especially especially Jay, because it's not, but he for whatever because we didn't have any options, right?

This is what we're going to do. And that was the most successful lunch. Like the most successful food that we had was where they got to choose whatever they wanted, and we just ate it next to the fountain outside.

Like street street hoodlums. And that...

Rebecca

was really

Mark

yeah, exactly. But in Denmark they embraced the culture.

So that was fine. I had to cook for the rest of the week and it was met with universal... every meal. I tried so hard.

It was met with universal disapproval. Breakfast.

Rebecca

Was it sort of like you didn't have the right chicken nuggets? Was it?

Mark

No, it wasn't. No, because I cook everything from scratch, pretty much. So we were not like dealing with a brand issue. We were dealing with like because I cook a lot of Homemade pizza that is like the number one in our house.

We have homemade pizza every week, and I cook it from scratch. So I was like, that will travel. I can buy flour.

I took yeast, popped it in my cargo shorts. Right.

Rebecca

You had yeast in your cargo shorts?

Mark

I did. Which doesn't sound as dodgy as you made it sound then. So so I and get this genuinely took a rolling pin right

Rebecca

Stop it

Mark

I'm not shitting you.

Rebecca

You got a rolling pin through security?

Mark

No, it was on the check-on baggage, right? Because I have...

Rebecca

right.

Mark

No, no, no. So.

Which is insane, right? But I was like, I've done this before. I went to Greece and I used a watermelon, and it was just, it wasn't, it wasn't ideal.

And I just, so I was like, I could take a rolling pin. It's not like a massive one, but it'll do. Because I thought, worst case scenario, I will make pizza every day.

The first day, I was like, right, let's just make a pizza so we can all settle in and it will help to acclimatize us because we'll have familiar food. And it was. It was the worst pizza I've ever made.

And it wasn't my fault. It was because I was cooking in a shitty oven. A shitty oven that did not get hot enough to cook a pizza.

So immediately, all of them rejected it. I was like, that I was, I was banking on that. For the whole holiday, that was like that was my fallback option.

Now, what? So then I'm in free fall trying to find anything. And every meal was met with scorn and criticism.

Yeah, it was so hard trying to find like what kind of milk. Just a simple thing. Like in Denmark, they've got like 14 different types of milk, and they're all categorized by fat content.

And I don't know how much fat   is in semi-skimmed. So I don't know how to match it. So we're going through them like, you know, and Jay is like a milk sommelier.

Sampling them like,  "No, not this one." That's like, oh god... another cart out of milk now. And the cereal wasn't right. And like, yeah, it was. That was that was the roughest bit, I think, um, of of that side of things was was the food issue.

Rebecca

But it's funny because I think you you know, the whole nature of going self-catering is that you're trying to keep that control, isn't it? That you're trying to keep that control so that hopefully you can provide them with the food you need. And I think that's just really unlucky. I blame the oven, to be honest with you. I mean, did you think about buying an oven while you were there? Just because

Mark

pop it in my cargo shorts. What I'm interested in about because you your so your time in Japan that's quite a free range thing, right? So we are at a holiday Park, if you like.

So it's self-contained and there's a set number of activities. You have got Japan to choose from. So how did you navigate The stuff to do, and did you get to do anything yourself, or was it all on Jem?

Rebecca

I don't really know what it is I do anymore. I mean, I don't really even really what are my likes and dislikes? What am I interested in? Who am I as a person?

Mark

I know what you like... I know what you mean.

Rebecca

No, no, it wasn't that bad. So I know I told you he went into super, super planning mode about this. So he.

told me to start an Excel spreadsheet of ideas about eight, nine, maybe even twelve months before we went. And at this point, I was like, do you know what? Learn how to do Excel.

I was just one of those natural teaching moments. I just want to just want to slip in there. I'm a home educator.

Check me out. So he started making notes of arcades mainly. It started special arcades that he really wanted to go to. But like I said, I have only one choice with arcades.

Now I either love them or I leave really. So so we started so I started with kind of trying to build a few other things in. We then put the theme parks in.

I'd sort of said about, you know, talked a little bit about the culture and the religion, you know, Shinto and Buddhism. And he was super excited to go to a shrine. And I thought what the fuck's going on here?

Because if I try to get you to go to a church, you know, or anything like that , a museum, you know, he'd rather die. So he said, No, I want to see a shrine

Mark

So, wow.

Rebecca

And I thought, okay, fine.

Mark

I would be nervous about taking my kids through. Even if they wanted to go, I'd be nervous about the fact that they would. not really buy into the vibe.

Rebecca

Well, then it was outdoor. It was outdoor mainly. So, you know, no kind of echoing kind of walls or stuff.

And again I I loved it because again, there was things you could do while you were there. So there were tr there was a great Shinto tradition of writing something down and putting it in a box and buying a little kind of trinket. So that all went from actually that I got to do that.

So I was still like

Mark

that.

Rebecca

And there were there were there were the big sort of things, you know, got to do the Pokemon Center and got to do the Tokyo Sky Two, or all of those big touristy activities, we put them all down. But there was stuff in there that I actually was very interested in. But like I said, I don't really know whether or not me and my husband were really super interested in those things or we were just trying to appease The small master, the boss.

But really, all my other half wanted to do was eat some good food. And I just wanted to see something different than these four walls and my town. And I was just really happy to be there, to be honest with you.

We got through everything. We followed that schedule like it was Some kind of bible and we were religious

Mark

so from a PDA perspective, it's control. It was about, you know, he had the control. As much as you can control stuff, but he's had control of the itinerary, and then, yeah, that's wonderful.

Rebecca

Ask me if we ever use an itinerary in in English in the UK?

Mark

I'm guessing no. I'm guessing no.

Rebecca

Can you imagine showing your kids a list.

Mark

Why don't you try it? Walk in there and go, I've made it an itinerary. This is what going to be a new today. And then just see what the reaction is.

For me, the kids having a control was super important. So obviously, we're in Holiday thing, but there are loads and loads of things to do there. That's why I chose it, because Otto needs constant entertainment.

And also Jay and India need different, just things to do that are novelty as well. And this place had The lot basically, it was insane the different things it had. It had like bowling and ice skating and badminton and table tennis and mini golf climbing.

It had arcades, like Go ape thing. There was trampolining. There was like augmented reality darts, which we'll get on to because that was eventful.

There were a bunch of playgrounds and there were football pitches and there were goats, Rebecca. There were. Like the field of not just goats... pygmy goats, right?

So

Rebecca

India,

Mark

India, who is obsessed with animals, pygmy goats, just go like It actually, she had a whole field of things to regulate her. When she was getting d dysregulated, we were in a place where I could say, you know what? Go and hang out with the goats for a bit, pop back.

And she did, and it was wonderful. And obviously, with Otto, there were loads of things we could do as well. And there was swimming.

It's like it's Scandinavia's, I think it's Scandinavia's biggest water park. But I think that that's but I think there are only like two or three. So I don't think it's like a big list to choose from.

But There were so that was fun. So we'd go swimming every morning, and we would be there for ages. And the kids would, you know, and I sort of would hoon around after them or with them on like most of the slides for a bit.

And obviously standing with Otto when he was too anxious to go on the big slides. And then the one thing that was like amazing Was ice skating, right? They had an ice skating rink that it appeared no one else knew about.

I don't know how. But we pretty much had it to ourselves for the whole holiday

Rebecca

In the summer, as well?

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

How cute and Scandinavian

Mark

so Jay hates the heat. So we walk into an ice rink and he's just like, ah, it's like being walking into a fridge, right?

So he loves that. My kids quite enjoy. ice skating.

They've not done much of it. You know, and we basically had that place to ourselves. By the end, we were making up Really reckless games.

And because there was no one else there, so we had this game where my job was to go all the way round the ice skating ring. And have you ever gone ice skating? You see the you get these like these big penguins or seals or for things for kids to hold on to, right?

Well, they had seals. And my my job was to get around the ice skating rink and they would try and ram me with seals to knock me over. Right.

Now obviously in normal society, that's not a thing. I'd be thrown off the ice rink, but no one was around. So we had the place to ourselves.

That was hilarious. But the thing is, there were lots of different things to do. And with Jay, he is old enough.

He was old enough for me to leave him in the cabin. Right. He could be on his Switch, he could be on his iPad or whatever.

And he knew what we, me, Indio, India, and Otto were planning. And he could join us if he wanted. And there was never a like, right, this is what we're doing.

And quite often he fancied doing it. So he'd go and join us and Play mini golf, or he'd come and join us and do bowling or whatever, and then go back. And that just worked really well because, again, it was that he's got that choice, and because he's old enough for me to be able to trust him back in the cabin.

Rebecca

And that's a bit of a game changer, isn't it? When? Because I know that that has Jem sounds a lot like Otto in some ways.

He's a lot. you know, bless them. I hate saying a lot.

But I don't know, it's it's really hard to describe him. But being now he's that little bit older, there is there are situations that you know are safe And when Jem's when Jem's on his own and there's no one else around him, he's quite safe. So in a way, that's a bit of a relief, isn't it?

Because if they can have that down regulation down time. by themselves and feel a bit more grown up about it and kind of, you know, to you when ready.

Mark

That gives them more capacity as well, because he needs he has that at home. That's an important thing for him at home is to be able to be in his room and just take some some quiet time. Right.

So when he's dysregulated, he'll just go to his room and be alone. And that's important because that's how he regulates. Okay.

And he could do that quite a lot at this place. So in the end, he ended up doing loads of stuff. It was great.

We had Legoland, like a Like a 10-minute walk from where we were, right?

Rebecca

Oh, really?

Mark

My kids could not give a shit About Legoland. I was like, can we go to Legoland? They were like, no, I don't want to go.

Because, you know, they like Lego, but they're not that fussed because it's a theme park. It's a lot. There's people.

It's more about people, right? It was like, um So in a way, it was fine, but there were things that were out there that they could have done that they chose not to.

Rebecca

How great that they actually really liked the place that they were at. They saved you a bunch of money not going to that theme park.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

And actually, when speaking as somebody that spends a lot of time in theme parks, um you know, why why would they then go and queue an hour, an hour, and hour for a rise when they can just potter around and do whatever they want on the great place? Yeah.

Mark

Smash the shit out of dad on an ice rink.

Rebecca

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mark

So, so yeah. So in terms of that, like it it was wildly successful in terms of what I was expecting versus what actually happened. It's that they did more than I expected them to do, all of them.

And it was basically what I was hoping it would be. And then there was the penultimate day. The penultimate day was Harrowing.

What happened...  Because I realized that I'm in danger of, you know, this episode talking about what happened and people just going, oh, fuck off. You're so smug.

Rebecca

Oh, don't worry. I'll get there and make you feel. better in a minute. Don't you worry. I'm getting there.

Mark

So if you've stayed this far, Neuroshamblers, listening to us, going, you know, actually, it wasn't as bad as we thought it would be. Strap in. Because for I think I think the transition back is uniquely dysregulating for our kids to the point they don't even realize it.

And what I the mistake I made was that I got complacent. And I thought, well, we've got the rhythm of this now. This is working.

This is, yeah, this is fine. This is gold.

Rebecca

Can I honestly say, I don't know the story. No. And I am getting frightened. I took my honestly, my heart is starting to go. You're just seriously triggering the fuck off of me here, Mark. Go gently.

Mark

What happened was that it was it was the penultimate day and we still had some stuff we wanted to try. And I was like, dude, we are smashing this. And it's the last day.

So and now I say it, it sounds It's ridiculous. I was like, let's just do loads of stuff. Let's get as like, because there's stuff we haven't done.

So let's do it all on the last day.

Rebecca

But that's natural. That's natural. You want to milk it.

Mark

Yeah, but in hindsight, that was like such a stupid, stupid strategy. Because I know my kids. My kids have not stopped being my kids, just because we're having a nice holiday, they're having a nice holiday because I know who my kids are and I'm managing to ration interactions with the outside world and activities and all of That right, and for whatever reason, the last day I was like, oh fuck it, let's let's go all out. So

Rebecca

it's the equivalent of one last drink, isn't it?

Mark

It's one last drink, and then waking up in a ditch.

Rebecca

Yeah, yeah, let's do shots. Let's not.

Mark

So we did lots of different things. That day, we did the darts. We hadn't done the augmented reality darts, that was super fun.

I did that with Otto in India. Um, and we did the swimming, uh, and we did that for a lot, and we did mini golf, and we did Bowling and Otto is a lot more dysregulated than usual. And I realize now that This was because I think he was getting anxious about the transition home.

I think that was definitely on his mind a lot more than previously, and having to pack up and probably the journey. as well was was playing on his mind. So he was do you have days where Jem just seems like more autistic than normal?

Do you know what I mean?

Rebecca

Absolutely.

Mark

Like, for whatever reason, he just regresses to being just not being able to do anything.

Rebecca

It's like someone turns up the gas, and you're like, oh shit, what happened?

Mark

Yeah. Like, it was just fine yesterday. We went ice skating.

Okay, towards the end of the day, as we did, had been doing successfully for ages. And for whatever reason, he had absolutely zero impulse control. Right now, his impulse control isn't great normally, but it's getting there.

Right for whatever reason, ice skating, he decided that he was going to just skate into people, right? I think he thought it would be funny, but the problem was there were actual people on the ice rink this time because we went a bit later. So that was different.

There were more people. Otto had just lost all sense of impulse control. So he was skating.

at people and into people. And I'm like trying to shepherd him away from people. And he's getting really kind of really dysregulated about it.

So then I tried to teach him to stop. You know, on ice skates, because we hadn't had to before then. We just smashed into the sides or crash into me, right?

But there were people, so we needed a little bit of stopping. But he... he deliberately didn't learn? I don't I don't know how to describe that as like he was deliberately failing.

Like I knew that he was trying to fall over. He was sort of doing prat falls and they're getting really upset. So I was like, this is not working.

Rebecca

Yeah, it's so familiar. So this is just Jem to a tee.

Mark

And I don't know why. Yeah, yeah, right. So there's a thing about deliberately failing.

I don't know why it's leaning into that a little bit. I'm still not quite sure what caused it, but he was deliberately failing at stopping. And then Then he skated directly into Jay, which, I mean, you know, you don't know Jay personally, but I think you can tell how that went down, right?

He's already been a bit much. And he then skates into Jay, and Jay, Not unreasonably, just shoves him over, right?

He literally shoves him over. So then, but that is like a massive meltdown from Otto. He's hurt himself.

He's all too much. He then storms off. In ice skates.

You can't storm off in ice skates effectively, by the way. It's sorry. Just

Rebecca

Oh, no.

Mark

So he storms off in I shouldn't laugh. It was really sad, but he was storming off in ice skates. So he kind of goes around the corner.

So I then have to go and find him, bring him back into the fold, and we decide that actually this is too much. So we sit on the side for a little bit. Then we all go.

The thing is that I've promised that we'll take Jay to darts because we had a good time earlier. Now, any sane, reasonable person at that point would have ended the evening's events, right? And I should have done or gone, you know what?

This is a bit much. Let's all just go back. Play the witch.

Rebecca

Would they? Would they?

Mark

This is. This was the problem. I broached it with them.

But they were dedicated to doing the thing that we said we were going to do. And I was like, oh, you know, when you just know, you just know it's not going to work. Right.

So then we ended up And we'd booked it. So it was booked. So we went and we did the darts and it Otto just was just had lost his mind.

Like I he had the most heartbreaking but and visible public meltdown I've ever seen him have. Where he started Again, I think his executive function was somehow compromised, and that he was just really bad at darts. And he's actually quite good.

He's got quite good hand eye coordination. For whatever reason, he was bad. So he's losing.

And. Jay was laughing at him, which made it worse. And then he just lost his shit.

And in a way that I'd never seen him do before, because what he started doing was laughing hysterically. like a maniac and then crying at the end of the laugh. It was like he... it was so heartbreaking to see and and You know, I'm like, what can I do?

Because he also wants to carry on. Like, seriously, when you have that, and it's very public, there's a lovely German family next to us on the next oche On the darts, right?

Having a lovely evening. I'm just like , and it is so Otto's losing his shit. and very visibly.

Jay is getting annoyed. India is becoming furious with Otto because he's ruining it and she just wants to do this thing she's getting more critical. They also have both Jay and sorry, yeah, both Jay and India have this thing where they can't rein it in if they want to be critical.

Because I'm just telling the truth, he is rubbish at this. It's like, yes, but just don't say it. Because, can you see it's not making things better?

And I'm having to sort of appeal to them. And then. And then actually took them to one side.

I've never done this before. I took Jay and India to one side and went, right, what's going on right now is Otto is having a huge meltdown. He is really overwhelmed.

Can you see that, right? Look at him. Like, and you can hear him, you know, laughing like a madman and then crying.

So, we all just need to give him a break, right? Because, you know, how do you feel when you feel really angry, Jay? You just want us to leave you alone, right?

That's what we need to do to Otto. And he fucking got it. Jay got it.

Like in a way that I have never seen before. India didn't get it.

Rebecca

Right.

Mark

So then, oh, God. So we carried on trying to get through. And it is, it's like being held hostage at this point.

It's like, I've got, I want us to get out. I want us to leave, but I can't. And we're like being held at gunpoint. At this darts, being forced to enjoy ourselves.

I'm just going, I just want it to end, and the time is ticking down really slowly until our session's over. And then India.

Rebecca

Oh, friend, I've been there. Oh, you're locked in. You're locked in to the activity. And oh, man. And

Mark

India is. just says another thing to Otto, like a really like just a mean thing about him because he's annoying her. Otto loses it and Jay then loses it with India.

Defending Otto, which I never thought would happen. Right? So he turns into.

Rebecca

He's just witnessed a leap in sort of maturity.

Mark

Yes and no. Right. So the way that he chose to defend Otto in public was to slap India.

Rebecca

Ah.

Mark

Right.

Rebecca

Right, I see.

Mark

Oh my god. Now it wasn't like it wasn't like it was It was mortifying. It was so shocking to everyone.

It was like, you know, it wasn't like a slap to hurt her. It was a slap to bring her to her senses. Like that kind of.

Do you know what I mean? You know, like in the seventies with the hysterical woman, and then like the man will slap her and she'll go, "oh, thank you for that". And obviously, India did not thank him for that.

At all, she just went completely like it shocked her. She was completely quiet, and then Just silently raged for the rest of the time. Like, you know, like she's plotting revenge kind of rage, you know.

Rebecca

Yeah.

Mark

Which was, you know, that was a lot. So we've got India melting... in meltdown. Jay is furious.

He's melting down and actually getting kind of angry about it. And Otto has lost his shit and he's melting down. And I'm just waiting for it all to finish.

Eventually. It finished just like, oh, can we just go now? Can we just go now?

Jay storms off back to the cabin. It's like, great. And I have to then bring the other two somehow back to Earth.

Now. Fortunately, we were next to the supermarket.

Rebecca

Yay!

Mark

It was like ice cream, ice cream is what I was thinking because it's cold. Like, Otto needs to be brought back into his body. He needs something sugary.

He brought back into his body. I realized he'd not drunk much in the previous bit as well, so he's probably dehydrated a bit. So I brought him some water and he did that.

And he, India, had an ice cream, and we managed to kind of get it back under control a bit. But That that was a lot.

Rebecca

Seriously, I think I want to give you a round of applause for just getting through that without screaming or shouting anyone.

Mark

I didn't. I did not scream or shout at anyone. What the fuck, man? Yeah. Maybe that's what therapy's for.

Rebecca

Maybe it's but also the conversation that you had with okay, so maybe India was a bit too young for it But you obviously put your point across really clearly to Jay.

Mark

Yeah.

Rebecca

He took it on board. He could he could see your frustr he could see how upset and frustrated you were. And so that okay, fair enough. He's liked his sister, but I'd be willing to overlook that, quite honestly. For that ,

Mark

Yeah, I mean, it's you know, you did so well, and uh, you know, it's let's call it a score draw, okay? But I mean, obviously, I did say that's the thing we never do, and you know, that is A rule in our house. Yeah.

But we we got we got through it somehow. It was it was yeah, it was a flipping nightmare, but we got we got through it. That was my kind of penultimate day.

The n the next the rest of the holiday. Okay, I'm going to gloss over this because I I want to hear about you. Because because any neuroshamblers listening thinks that what I've just encountered towards the end of the holiday was bad.

Put the kettle on. Um okay, so after that we got we got home relatively easily. Like again, it's not really worth worth mentioning, other than for whatever reason the flight home was massively undersold.

So we all we all got a window we all got a window seat

Rebecca

Didn't even have to sit next to each other.

Mark

We each got a row. It was like a private jet. It was insane.

So, you know, that was the little uplift. And then the yeah, then then we got home and it was all it was all good. Right.

I need to hear about your journey home because you gave me a little teaser when we first chatted, and I was like, My God.

Rebecca

I'm gonna have to bring the tone down a bit. The last day went really, really well. Mood-wise, I could See, you know, it was the transition was coming.

He was saying things like, I'm really sad, I don't want to go, I love it here so much, and all of that kind of stuff, which is great. You want a holiday to have had that effect. That was the whole point of going, isn't it?

You know, it's life-changing. blah, blah, blah. But we packed a lot in, we let him choose.

You know, he went back to his favorite arcade that day and we me and his dad sort of popped in and out because we were on a kind of like a resort kind of thing. It was all it was all really good. The thing that Jem didn't know and that I didn't tell him was that we were flying back with British Airways, not Japan Airlines. To you and me, what the fuck does it matter?

But it was

Mark

different. Was it not was that not on his itinerary? Had he like got Japan Airlines on his itinerary and in his mind?

Rebecca

Yeah, it was in his mind. That was the thing. So, although he has He's flown with, you know, different airline.

It was so clear in his head that it was going to be, you know, there was lovely flight assistant, there was extra legroom on the seat, you know, the whole it was a beautiful thing. The British Airways plane not so much, and it was smaller. I don't ask what plane it was, I'm not an aviation expert.

We were sitting together, but we were very much crammed in. And you know when you just I always say I can smell I always say I can't smell it, but you know when you just sense a disturbance in the

Mark

yeah, no, 100%. You do, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca

It was nothing anyone had said or done, but he was anxious getting on that plane. And we got on and we walked to our seats, and something in me said Go and find a cabin crew. Go and find someone and just let them know.

So he sat in the seat and he went I don't like it. I don't like this. I haven't got any room.

Mark

What can you do? I can't do anything.

Rebecca

What the fuck can you do? You can do nothing. So I just got up to say I was going to the loo.

I went to this really handsome, gorgeous British Airways guy and I said, Look, I just need to let you know. My son's not wearing his lanyard. He's autistic.

This is a really big flight. He's very tired. I think there's going to be a problem.

I think he's going to get a bit upset. I don't I don't know why I just blurted all this out. Lily, I wanted a hug.

Who knew? Who knows?

Mark

No, it is. You know when this is the thing, right? You know when you need to give people the heads up. And I think that's it.

Rebecca

Yeah. And. And I did.

And by the time I went and sat down, he was rocking, rolling in his seat. The tears started. And we managed to.

Mark

Is that before takeoff?

Rebecca

Yeah. We we just he distracted himself for the actual takeoff. 'Cause obviously 'cause he was he was still able to be sort of slight he was sort of slightly malleable still then.

Mark

Well, he was still Japanese at that point.

Rebecca

There you go, um we took off and just all hell broke loose and he I counted And it was it was the best part of four hours of a an airbound full on Meltdown, like your shit show at forty thousand feet or whatever it is. It wasn't just on the road, it was in the mile high club

Mark

Also, surrounded by a lot of people.

Rebecca

Motherfucker, I can't even tell you. And on the way, it wasn't even lots of Japanese people who, to be fair, probably would have just fucking ignored it and got because that's what

Mark

That's what they do.

Rebecca

There was a lot of European people who had a lot of eyeballing to do.

Mark

Oh, really?

Rebecca

Anyway, just to kind of paraphrase The volume was loud. Me and his dad couldn't. So he was on a bank of three. But then he lay on the floor across the floor with his because he's quite tall So his feet were sticking out.

Thank God I'd spoken to this cabin crew guy. So I went back to him. I went back to him maybe every half an hour.

And can I just tell you, if I wasn't married, I mean, this guy, I think he was gay, but I would I would marry him. He said to me, Madam I'm not going to intervene. I can see you and your partner are struggling, but I can see you're doing all you can.

Mark

Jesus.

Rebecca

Nothing that it was he said, nothing that I do. Will be helpful, he said. Nothing I do, he said.

I am going to ignore it. And he said, If you need anything from me, you come to me. But I'm over here, I'm here if you need anything.

And you know, when someone's kind to when you're

Mark

That's exactly the response you want, though, isn't it?

Rebecca

It was it was just incredible, and so But then looking back on it now, it's I can see the humour in somebody trying to push a the drink trolley. down an aisle with a massive pair of feet sticking out, me seeing it coming, running from my I was in a cabin crew seat by that point. I'd been reseated in a cabin crew seat, running I'd see the trolley coming, I'd sprint as fast as I could down to Jem, lift his legs up The tab in the cabin crew trolley would go past, and then I'd look

Mark

his legs down again.

Rebecca

Four hours, four hours. And the sweet, sweet thing was there was a young a German family, a girl of about I think she was about sixteen. She came over and she said I'm autistic and I think your son's autistic.

And I said, yes, he is.

Mark

No shit, Sherlock.

Rebecca

No shit. And she said, she said, I have plushies.

If he wants a plushie, I can give him a plushie.

Mark

Oh my god, that is amazing.

Rebecca

And I can really see he's struggling. And let me do it. And she was so incredible.

And then about half an hour later, her dad came over. And he again, he I spoke to my husband and he said, he said, this is very hard. I can see how hard this is.

I just want you to know We're not judging you. We're here if you need anything. And you know, in a in a I know, I know, in a plane full of silent, kind of possibly judgy people. Yeah, let's be honest. Um and a a low point I think was when

Mark

four hours of this Jesus Rebecca

Rebecca

no man, you know. Um it a low point when once there was there was quite there was some ticking of me when I was trying to because obviously I was in there trying to...

Mark

de-escalate stop it spilling out the other seats, right?

Rebecca

Yeah, basically. It's the atmosphere at this point. I did say to Saj, the na the guy, the the guy no, Sarj, S A R J name was after name him, the show is chat, I said to him, at what point does this become a problem because I've started to catastrophize as you can probably imagine because how long will they last? a a chi a young a teenager block an aisle. How long were they like kick? How long were they letting them get

Mark

restrain them and stuff, which is in itself like horrible. Yes. But then for the safety of the plane, that becomes a like a bigger issue. Jesus.

Rebecca

Because you're not in a supermarket. You're not in a cinema

Mark

safety of other people becomes. Paramount at that point, regardless of what's going on with your child, who you are fiercely advocating for. Oh my god.

Rebecca

Exactly. So I think... so. I sort of said to Saj, what, you know, what happens? And He was very good.

He kind of skirted. He was very diplomatic. And he said, at the moment, we're fine.

Everything is fine. I've told my crew, no one's going to do anything. He said.

If the situation continues, we'll revisit. And I'll and I just sort of thought, that's great, because what I'm thinking is you're going to down this plane You know, you're going to bring us down, you're going to send on security, we're going to end up in Azerbaijan or whatever it is, wherever we are. I begged an American couple to switch seats.

I paid for them. I offered I offered to pay them money.

Mark

Switch seats in what way? Where what's the

Rebecca

Oh, s so to give Jem um bulkhead seats.

Mark

Right. Okay.

Rebecca

So so because we you know we were in we're in an aisle. And so in order for him to have more legroom, because I thought change of scenery, you know, move seat, change of scenery, bit of space around Let's just let's change change it up. So I went over to an American couple who didn't have any kids and I knelt down in front of them and said, Can I pay you for your seats? Honestly, looking back on it, how mental

Mark

No, but you just yeah, but we've all been in that situation where it's like I'll just do and what I like I've tried so many things.

Rebecca

This was probably three hours in and I just said look you hear... you know that noise That's my son.

Mark

Did you say that?

Rebecca

Please. Yeah. I said, I said, you've heard it.

You've heard us. And they were like, yeah, yeah. And I said, please said, I'll do anything.

I'll pay you. Whatever you want. Can we have your seat?

And I went, and then I went very British. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

I realise I'm putting you under a lot of pressure. I do apologise. Perhaps I could go away and let you two discuss.

And then I did that, and then I saw them look at each other. They got up.

Mark

Wow, my God.

Rebecca

They called cabin crew, they moved their stuff. And we and that's what ended it was the movement to a better

Mark

Well done, man. I mean like s seriously, because this is what, you know, this is what being a neurodivergent parent is, right? That if it all kicks off, you ask looking for the answers for this riddle, this riddle of how I Can somehow like, and you've tried everything, and not only you, and this is wonderful, the neurodivergent community are stepping forward with plushies and support, and like that because it's so, I mean. Poor Jem, it's like so, so hard for him

Rebecca

as well. That's the thing, at the heart at the heart of it, there's there's somebody that's just screamed and cried for f I haven't screamed a cry for four hours. I don't know if I've ever done that in my life. So I'd no idea how that feels

Mark

He's terrified. So well done for getting through that and finding finding whatever the whatever way to unpick the lock

Rebecca

I still owe that American couple probably like £500 each, but they never asked me to do that.

Mark

Imagine they're doing that. If you are if you're listening to this and you are that American couple, please invoice hello at neuroshambles. com.

Rebecca

There we go.

Mark

I'll pass it on to Rebecca. Oh, yeah. Wow.

Wow. But you got back in the end. We all got well, look, same number of people came back as went out.

You know, same for me. So, yeah, we got there.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, we're going to look at the positives now. You know, because it wasn't there. It was bumpy in places and wildly successful in other places.

And, you know, ultimately we did it, right? We all came home in one piece. I, you know, some with A greater degree of PTSD than others.

I mean, I feel like I got off very lightly. But from our perspective, the kids tried loads of things in an unfamiliar place, and I think they You know, they enjoyed it. Like I asked Jay how he felt about it and he said it was fun, but he hated the food, fair, and the flights.

It's like, dude, that was the best you could have had. Like an hour and a half and you got your own like aisle for most of it. So I don't think flying's for Jay, but broadly speaking, they had a good time.

So that is good. It is a reminder that our kids can be out of their comfort zones a little bit. Well, a lot, really.

Um but only if you note something that they can handle. Like I knew or certainly had a very strong feeling that my kids w would be able to handle a holiday, just as I knew two years ago that wasn't on the cards. And then, you know, as a parent of neurodivergent kids, you we are very finely attuned to those levels of judgment.

And I think if you You know, if you feel that you can do it, give it a go. I mean, there will be inevitably trauma involved in some elements of it, but there will be some really nice moments. Can I tell you?

the biggest positive from there was a little moment. No, I'll I'll save it for the tiny epic wins actually. Yeah.

But what are you have you your positives? Do you have any have any positives l to recount?

Rebecca

I think I I feel brave, like as a human being to do that. And I think but I think kind of Life's really difficult, Mark, isn't it? Life's really fucking difficult.

Living this life, parenting, these fucking amazing but terrifying kids. And I think we've probably all got way more strength than than we give ourselves credit for. And actually sometimes I don't want to sound like a terrible Instagram quote, but actually sometimes just actually fucking taking a leap and seeing how it goes because life's really hard at home.

And yeah, okay, life's hard when you're away. But Sometimes it's nice having a meltdown in different in a different continent, you know?

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions. Now, these are the people or organizations that are doing wonderful things in the realms of neurodiversity. It would be absolutely wrong of both Rebecca and I to not mention special assistance as a neurodiversity champion.

I think I've mentioned it before, but like that, as we discussed in this episode. Special Assistance was incredibly important for getting getting me through that initial bumpy bit of the holiday, and they were fabulous. And if you want to book Special Assistance, you basically phone the the airport.

Well, actually, I phoned the airline and they arranged it with the airport. But you can also pick it up at the airport. Different airports have different Levels of understanding for special assistance, I think.

I feel like

Rebecca

it can be quite complicated, I think. What you get at one place won't necessarily be

Mark

especially if you're abroad, like it could be anywhere. So, but Gatwick that I used, I'm going to give a shout out to Gatwick because they were phenomenal. And yes, definitely. If you are going anywhere with your kids, even if you think they might not need it. definitely book it.

Rebecca

Yeah, because you don't have to use it.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah,

Rebecca

it's just it's just that little bit of an extra user ship. Keys of pressure. No, just that little extra kind of help.

Sometimes, you know, you can even have your own little waiting area with special assistance as well, which is really helpful. They can help carry your bags. All of that's all good.

Mark

Yeah. Have you got any neurodiversity champions?

Rebecca

I'd just really like to shout out the flight crew of our flight, especially the amazing guy that it was Paul and Sarj, who was just incredible to us and just did the right thing by not doing anything. But by communicating that they weren't going to do anything?

Mark

Yes. Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca

Because you don't want to be ignored because being ignored could feel like being judged, can't it? Judged suddenly from afar. But just that it's that whole thing of like, tap on the arm, I'm here, not going to do anything if you need me. So I that for me was perfect. So I am and will be eternally grateful.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins. Now, these are the things that for a neurotypical family would be considered no great shakes, but for a neurotambolic family, major epic wins. I feel like the just going there and back is an epic win in its own right.

Definitely. But there is one tiny epic win that I definitely want to talk about because there was a moment that I had on my holiday where I was just like, holy shit this is what it feels like to be like a neurotypical family. Um and this was we we went swimming.

It was about five days In, right? And we'd go we went swimming every morning. And they were used to the routine.

They knew the slides. They knew and we had a place that we did, like a specific place that we would put all our bags. And that would be the place that we would kind of camp out, and all of the stuff would be there.

So they knew where to come back to, and they knew the layout of the swimming pool. And on the fourth or fifth day, I was like, right, I'm going to be here. Okay, you go, you swim, you go on whatever slides you want.

I'm just going to be here, right? Now the here was right next to a hot tub and a sauna. Right.

So they were like, great. They ran off to do that. I spent like a good half an hour in a hot oven on my own.

Like, I got a moment, right? Because the holiday, even though you're on holiday, is Madness because you end up doing so much stuff for the cooking and the carrying of shit and planning stuff, right? It's there's a lot, especially if you're on your own.

So, for me, that there was a tiny epic win was that that little hot tub and sauna moment that I had to myself. There, that was that was a tiny epic win for me.

Rebecca

That's incredible. That is incredible. I I that's crystallized, beautiful. Never forget about it.

Mark

It's pretty sweet. What about you? Any tiny epic wins?

Rebecca

Yeah. I think if we're talking holiday based ones, there was actually you know, when your kid gives you your own advice back to you, but actually but actually it's really well timed and it's well placed. I think I may have been slightly overwhelmed at one point.

I know. It was nearly 40 degrees one. Nearly 40 degrees in the first week.

And I was Sow and jam, they're both kind of more olive skinned, and I'm just flying like a piece of coconut ice under an umbrella. And I was getting really Overstimulated by stuff, and I was getting a bit snappy, possibly. Can't imagine it.

I know, it happens. I can be snappy. Snapped at both of them, and Jem said to me Well, he handed me a cold bottle of water that he just bought from a street vendor, and he said, You seem really overwhelmed.

I think we need some time apart. So me and Daddy are going to go over here Drink the water, go and sit down under the shade, and I'll come back to you in ten minutes.

Mark

Oh my God, that was amazing

Rebecca

giving me the water, talking to me in a slightly patronizing voice. Suggesting faith as well, suggesting faith because so that we weren't constantly kind of you know aggravating and I just thought

Mark

and he was right as well, he saw you

Rebecca

I was a he token. He saw my soul. Absolutely. Yeah.

Mark

That's what, but doesn't that give you kind of like just encouragement that he He can advocate in that way, right? He talks about overwhelming. He understands what's needed when he feels overwhelmed, and he recognizes that you need it as well.

That's an epic win. Nice. Yeah.

Rebecca

Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, what the flip moments now. These are the things that our neurodivergent kids will say or do that will completely Baffle us and leave us wondering how to respond. So I have obviously been away for a couple of months, away from Euro Shambles, but I have been amassing some doozies of what the Flip moments, so I'm going to go through a few, but these are just the holiday ones.

Um, so Jay, when we got there, because obviously, you know, the Kitchens are different in different parts of the world, and he was not happy with the crockery. I took particular exception to the crockery in the holiday cabin. And he's just sighed and went, Ugh, I wish these bowls were more bowlier.

Rebecca

I feel him. I know what he means.

Mark

You know what he means, right? Exactly. It wasn't bowly enough.

It was too platey. So that was that was from Jay. Another one.

And this is where I was a bit worried about whether the holiday was going to be successful or not. Was as soon as we arrived, we walked into the cabin. And it's lovely.

It was delightful. And he just looked around, stood on the spot, looked around, he just went, I personally don't like it. Not enough sockets.

Rebecca

What is here? 65-year-old man? What? What? Not enough sockets.

Mark

Exactly. I don't like the pointing on that roof, Daddy. It's like.

I don't know what he's thinking. But yeah, he judged it on the socketry. But it was fine.

We got over that. We located some sockets and we were it was okay. Another what the flip moment with Otto was the night before we were to fly.

The night before we were flying. He was a little bit anxious, and I just went, Get some sleep, dude. It's a big day tomorrow.

And he just looked at me and went, It's not really big. It's the same size as all of them.

Rebecca

You were caught out by a literal thing.

Mark

God damn it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then he did another one.

Again, the same day. So I was obviously in very literal mode where I was like, you know, but you know what it's like to fly. Like, you you know, you flew before when we went to Greece and he went I didn't fly, I was flown.

Rebecca

See, I like that because it also it also sort of implies that he's not He's better than just fighting. He gets flown. There's a gravitas to it. There's a gravitas.

Mark

Yes.

Rebecca

I love that.

Mark

Okay, that is it for the first episode of season four of Neuroshambles. Firstly, as always, Rebecca, thank you so much for coming back and for sharing your triumphs as well as The deep trauma of taking a PDA abroad. Thanks also to Neuroshamblers far and wide for spreading the word and for being patient over the summer while I sorted my shit out enough to start on new season.

If you've got anything you want to send us, you can email me at hello at neuroshambles. com or you can get in touch via the socials on Instagram. Facebook or TikTok.

I'll also urge all of you NeuroShamblers to check out NeuroShambles on YouTube, which is now a thing. You can see our faces. while we recount the horrors of some of those aspects of our holiday.

And if you're on YouTube, please subscribe and the algorithms will pick it up and see it as Something worth pushing in other people's faces, I guess. I don't know how it works. We'll see.

Um but yeah, I think that's it for now. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.