Swimming | Hatty Ashdown

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode forty-one of Neuroshambles. As always, it's a joy to have you here as we chronicle yet another chaotic chapter of our neuro-shambolic lives. Thanks also for your lovely comments on the socials and the emails you're sending in. They are genuinely heartwarming to receive. So, um, yeah, it's much appreciated. I had one recently from Becky who said Hey, I just wanted to say thank you so much for your podcast. I've only just come across it, but I'm so glad I found it because it's so brilliant. And as a mum of a recently diagnosed Audi HD six-year-old It just makes me feel seen and understood. Thanks for bringing some light to the sometimes hard and chaotic days. I look forward to making my way through all of the episodes Good luck, Becky. You've got a lot to catch up on, but I'm going to be taking a pause from the podcast over the summer holidays, so you're going to have plenty of time to make a dent in the Neuroshambles back catalogue. Anyway, I've got a really fun episode lined up this week where I'll be welcoming back a previous guest to get her take on the topic of the week that I'm hoping resonates with some of you. We'll also have some Neurodiversity Champions, Tiny Epic Wins, and the Timeless Classic What the Flip moments. So let's roll our sleeves up and get stuck in.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So, this week's guest is someone who featured in season one of Neuroshambles and who I've been trying to lure back for a while now. As you can imagine. Life with neurodifferent kids tends to throw up a few curveballs, so we haven't been able to make it happen until now. So, as well as being a solo parent of two kids, at least one of whom is neurodivergent. She is also a hugely funny comedian, podcast host and a writer. So I am delighted to be able to welcome back it's Hatty Ashdown. How you doing, Hatty?

Hatty

I'm all right. And also now I'm well, I was already one of the gang because I was dyslexic. I was diagnosed dyslexic when I was 21. But about a month and a half ago, I had my ADHD diagnosis.

Mark

So it came through.

Hatty

Triple threat.

Mark

But I mean. As we've discussed, I already knew that, right?

Hatty

Well, yeah, I know, I know, but I'm just telling myself.

Mark

And this is an interesting little peek behind the scenes of Neuroshambles, but I have guests on. And I could tell just by how much I need to edit whether they are neurodivergent or not.

Hatty

And it sounds like dark dart all over the place.

Mark

Yeah, 'cause they'll start a sentence and then their their mind will go somewhere else and they'll like dart off in a different direction and then they'll come back but obviously I have to try and edit in some sort of narrative into this and try to make it a little bit more cohesive. So it it does give me a slightly more challenging edit. However, I find them a bit more fun to listen to. I guess. So yeah, I try not to edit out all of your character, Hatty. So if you're listening to this Neuroshamblers, you'll know Depending on how many conversational divergence depending on how many tabs we open in this conversation. You'll know whether I've just given up the will to edit. Anyway, it's good to know about you and your diagnosis, but for the listeners who might not have listened to the previous episode that we recorded back in season one. Please remind us of your setup and whether you have any pseudonyms for your children. Because if you remember last time, your son was called Keith.

Hatty

Keith! That's right, Keith.

Mark

So are you going to stick with Keith?

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

You're going to stick with Keith. Okay. Okay. So tell me about Keith's diagnoses.

Hatty

Yeah. So he's nine, nearly ten in a month or so, and he was diagnosed with ADHD and autism uh about three years ago now. Double whammy. Double whammy. What about the other child? What's their no no no at the moment no no at the moment we we are displaying Sometimes I think he's a little bit dyslexic with his, you know, um, writing and stuff. But it's hard to tell. You know, he's he's set he's going to be seven this Saturday. So it's hard to tell when they're at that age, aren't they? So Um, but no, at the moment not. He's just, um he's just my sensitive one, but in a different way.

Mark

Don't get complacent.

Hatty

I know, I know. But he's just to me, please mummy. I'm the only one who's not got something in the house because it's me and Keith. Yeah. But now we can't have any we need we need him to look. He literally does look after us. It's quite funny.

Mark

All right. Well, thank you for introducing us. To your newer ashambolic family.

Hatty

Let's crack on with the topic of the week. What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So this week's topic is one of the ones that I have touched on briefly in a couple of episodes, but the more I thought about it, the more I felt compelled to do a standalone episode on it. because it's another one of those regular activities that are seemingly straightforward for neurotypicals, but which become a whole different basket of weasels for us neurodivergents when you And that is the subject of swimming, right? Because there are so many moving parts to any swimming trip. Like getting them changed, getting them into the pool, getting them out of the pool, getting them to leave the showers. That's all before you even consider the unique drama of teaching them to swim in the first place. So I thought we should unpick it a little bit more in detail in the hope that other people can listen to it and share our pain.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

Some of the pleasure and joy from it as well. There's an important disclaimer I want to make at this point. I will say at the outset that I don't enjoy swimming. Right? I genuinely dislike swimming. It is so much effort. for so little distance.

Hatty

What you're yourself or taking the kids?

Mark

Myself, taking the kids is a complicated thing, which we'll get into.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

But for myself, I'd never choose it as a mode of transport.

Hatty

A mode of transport?

Mark

I can't help, like, it's so, it's just like you're using your whole body and you just think. I could just get out and walk. It'd be so much quicker. So I don't really I don't really enjoy swimming myself. And when you factor in the seismic levels of faff involved in taking my kids swimming on my own as a solo parent, Without any of us drowning, right, that's crucial. But having said that, my kids bloody love Swimming, they're so happy in the water. Yeah, all three of them. It is genuinely, it's one of the few things that they all enjoy doing. Because I've got three of them and they've got very, very different personalities. So there are very few things that they're all on board with. And it's basically swimming, eating pizza, or pretending I have curly hair. They're the three things. that they're united in. Right. The only three things that they all agree on. I know. So swimming holds a special place for us. But what how about you? I mean, how's how does swimming how is swimming for you lot?

Hatty

I love swimming. I'm a bit of a water baby. I used to swim by choice after school on my own. I was one of those nerds. So I do love a swim. And you just talking about it is making me go, Oh, everything the reasons you love it, you hate it. I love it. Like it stretches your whole body and Yeah, I love it. But I never really had professional lessons. Like, I think we did, you know, I did the ones at school and At first, I remember being a little bit scared, but I was scared of other children. I kept thinking other children were going to dunk my heads under the water and stuff like that. I don't know why. I think I just watched other kids doing it. But I eventually learnt to swim in the sea on holiday. Okay. Um, like really kind of like my brother in law, just going Take off your armbands, and I was like, No, and he was like, Just take off your armbands. And it was like, I don't know. It was like something about somebody just like telling.

Mark

He just seems so confident.

Hatty

I know, yeah, that's probably what it was. And I was a little bit scared of him.

Mark

You know, I need to say, so you thought he was going to stunk your head under if you didn't do it. All right, all right, I'll do it. And then I'm going to swim to get away from you, you fucking nutter.

Hatty

Yeah, exactly. But then that was it. I was off, and I love the sea swimming. It's one of my favourites. Yeah, so I love it.

Mark

Okay. And I think I think it is, and this is may or may not be linked to your neurodivergency, but the more parents of neurodivergent kids that I speak to about swimming, the more I think it has a very special place for our neuro exceptional kids. There is something about swimming that scratches a an itch, or it sort of gives them a pleasure that a lot of other things don't. And they're very much drawn to it, I find. And I think all kids do to a degree. I'm not saying that's specific to neurodivergent kids, but I do think that it's a thing that neurodivergent kids pretty uniformly enjoy doing from what I've seen. And I've got a theory.

Hatty

Okay.

Mark

And I've got no evidence for this theory as I have no evidence other than my own family for a lot of the theories that I come up with on this podcast. But I think it's related to the fact that it is so sensory if you think about it, right? Because if you're in water, there is a resistance around your whole body. Right. And my kids in particular seek sensory input from pressure. So they wear the stretchy body suits. Have you tried those?

Hatty

Yes. Yes.

Mark

They're great and they love that. And weighted blankets. And very often they will ask me to sit on them. Which is a bit drastic and it feels a bit wrong, but they get a lot of pleasure out of it. So I do it. And so they seek that sensory kind of input from pressure a lot. And so being in the water where your muscles have to work a bit harder and all of your muscles are working harder, I think give them a similar feeling.

Hatty

Like the held feeling, because I say about that, yes, how they like being Yeah, held and those sort of weighty

Mark

Like waistcoat type things, oh, gilets and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hatty

Like a gilet type thing, it looks like a um bullet vest.

Mark

Um, either this kid is a spy or he's neurodivergent. One of the two.

Hatty

Yes. In the lineup, guess. Yeah, I'd say I never really thought about it like that, but it makes sense. And I'd say it's I know that Keith loves Bath. You know, he has his tradition of having a bath every night and he'll will lay there for ages. And yeah, and it's always been like that since he was little. It was like really good time for him to just chill out. So I just think the sensory of the water, it's focused 'cause it's like there's no other distractions around, you're just in that place.

Mark

I've got an interesting one. Does he submerge himself completely underwater?

Hatty

He does in the bath, and he doesn't, because now we've got a hot tub. Because I bought it for therapeutic reasons.

Mark

Of course, get you?

Hatty

Nice. It's therapeutic reasons.

Mark

For who? For him or me?

Hatty

Yeah, it's not for me. I don't, I can't stand it.

Mark

But you have to get in with it. Of course, I have to. Because this is a big thing for Jay is that he whenever we go swimming, he He spends a lot of time with his head under the water. Either he will just completely sink to the bottom and stay there way longer than I'm comfortable with. Right. Or he will float like a corpse. Right. Yeah, I've seen Schwet. is fucking alarming. If you are a parent or a lifeguard And you see this kid face down in the water, arms out like he's dead. It's really quite alarming. He did this exactly last night in the hot tub. I was. Are you alright?

Hatty

And he went, Yeah, I went, Oh, you were dead.

Mark

I went, and I've actually spoken today about this because I, again, I have a a theory that the being submerged underwater thing is also a sensory input, but it's not pressure, it's the silence that being underwater gives you. 'Cause if you think about kids who are overwhelmed by noise and just busyness and chaos in the outside world Soon as you go underwater, it's this kind of eerie silence. And I think that he got a lot out of that. So he spent quite a lot of time Just underwater. And I think that's what the theory is for me.

Hatty

Interesting.

Mark

I actually spoke to him about it as well at one recently, before I was doing this episode. I said, what is it about being in the water? And he said, It's the closest I can get to levitating. Yeah. Which I quite liked that. I'd not thought about that. That's quite an interesting way of perceiving it.

Hatty

Being weightless, and it must. Yeah, enjoy that part of it.

Mark

So you've got Jay, who is generally, you know, pretty reckless and fearless about stuff. And India also loves being in water and she has Yeah, she doesn't really consider any limitations. She'll just throw herself into things. Otto, on the other hand, is incredibly fearful of most of the things in the world. Apart from swimming. So again, he will throw himself into it. He loves it. Absolutely loves it. He's just, again, I know I've spoken about this quite a lot recently, but when his whole body is being used, his anxiety just disappears because he's having to do something physically and he doesn't get in his head as much. So with swimming, again, your whole body is being used and I think that that really helps as well. So he just loves it. Although our kids love water, um, I don't know if your kids are anything like mine, but the process of teaching them to swim has been a fucking nightmare. Yeah. Jay was the first, obviously, because he's the oldest. And when I was in the water with him, you know, because you go through stages, right? And the initial stage is when they're toddlers. And you take him in the water.

Hatty

Did you do all that, like the baby classes and all that?

Mark

Yeah, and they were absolutely fine with it. You know, you get other kids who, you know, don't like getting their face wet and stuff. My kids just launching themselves in, they didn't give a hoot.

Hatty

Yeah, I'm just remembering now. I was Mrs. Like, oh, thinking, yeah, look at my kids, so confident in the water when you've got these other kids that are crying about getting in. Mind it.

Mark

No, my kids cry about getting out.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

But um yeah, so m that was never a problem, getting their face wet, going under the water, and like you say, like are you always felt Quite proud when I took, like, Otto, in particular, would just be hurling himself in, and people were genuinely quite surprised. And I was, yeah, proud, proud dad as they were doing that. So, that wasn't That was fine. There was nothing unexpected there. The problem happened when he was too old for us to be in the water with him.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

Right? Because then that's when it. turn to shit, basically, because it then stops being swimming with someone that you know and trust and it becomes a lesson.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

And lessons are problematic for my kids. Yeah. Because we tried so many different groups with Jay. And we came across the same problem every single time that he just wouldn't or couldn't listen to the teacher.

Hatty

Follow instructions.

Mark

Yeah, couldn't follow instructions, couldn't focus on what the teacher was saying. And for me, quite early on, it was a sign of that he's different to a lot of these other kids because I'd watch him. And watch it from the side, and all the other parents are there, like watching their little children and encouraging them. And the teacher would be giving the instructions: I want you to do this stroke down to the end and back again. But Jay would just be ducking his head under the water repeatedly, and then coming up and like hearing maybe a word, and then he's down again, and he's splashing around and like He was just like in his own world and obviously getting his own sensory input. But what he wasn't doing was paying any attention to the teacher. And so he kept getting told off. But like, and you know, this is one of the early signs of him getting told off. And I'm sitting watching him being told off for not listening. I don't know if it was a deliberate attempt to avoid being told what to do, because obviously now he's PDA, so maybe there was an issue there with, you know, not wanting to Hear what was said because he didn't want the demand on him. So maybe that was an issue, or maybe it was something else. But clearly, he wasn't taking it in. He was actually asked to leave the group.

Hatty

No!

Mark

He was booted out of swimming because he wasn't It wasn't teachable, I guess.

Hatty

That was quite shameful.

Mark

It's like, what, you're gonna like, you're gonna just leave this kid to drown, are you? You have a responsibility.

Hatty

And what and what age are you talking?

Mark

Six, maybe.

Hatty

Oh my god, he was only five, six, flipping out.

Mark

Yeah, I know, I know, I know, but he was a he was pretty disruptive, man.

Hatty

Oh, right, he's quite disruptive. Okay.

Mark

He wasn't not with anyone else. He wasn't interacting with anyone else. He was just I think it was affecting the teacher's self-esteem, to be honest.

Hatty

She was at a low ebb. I mean, my I feel like my place is so money grabby. Like They they j they just keep him on till he was 16. They just keep him going to get the money. He's nearly there.

Mark

We're going for 10 meters next.

Hatty

Well, because he should have got an award for taking the longest to ever pass level one. So he had that thing of like He's still there, and then the little ones are coming along, and he's like this massive tall one, still doing level one. And I was just about they tick off percentages of what they're learning. And I was like, I said to their dad, I said, oh, honestly, I don't know if you just take him out. And so I asked him what percentage and he was like quite getting closer, so we were like, Let's stick with it a bit longer. Then he had a nice teacher which he liked, and he wasn't very firm, he was quite soft really, but And then there was like a couple of lessons where loads of other kids didn't turn up and literally had like a one-to-one with him. To be honest If we could afford it and had the time, that's probably what would have to do it for him, is one to one lessons. But there's like a massive list there, um waiting list For the one-to-one, and they do wait, you know, somewhere else, but I can't get to there, blah blah blah. So he passed eventually, but he's there with all the little tiny ducklings. And he's like big duckling.

Mark

So can he s can he actually swim now though?

Hatty

No, but that was only level one because it's it's all about stringing the money out of you. Level one is like Being confident in the water, which he does he he knew that anyway, but he just ha they have to tick things off, don't they? So They're like like same as you. He's kind of like his thing was kind of like just he just literally couldn't listen. There's too many classes. In the pool for start. There's like loads of them going on. It's so noisy. And so he'd I'd see him, bless him. I'd see him through the glass and I'd be doing this. I'd be going

Mark

For the listeners of Neurashembles, Hatty is currently gesturing to her ears and encouraging her child to listen via the medium of Mime.

Hatty

Exactly as if that's going to work. I mean, some people watch for us, he'd go, I could see his little head go, Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm listening. That would last for two seconds and then they've lost him. You know, he's just like bobbing up and down, doing his own thing, whatever.

Mark

See, I think you make a I think you make a really good point there about the noise. Right. Because I think that there is a a a swimming pool is a uniquely echoey place. Like, and there's a lot of, you know, there'll be screaming that echoes and like laughter and splashing and then you get the announcements that come over the Tannoy and that's echoing around. It's like it this it's quite overwhelming, I think, from an auditory perspective. Yeah. So I'm sure that the Jay in particular would have had problems listening to the teacher. I mean, aside from the fact that he was underwater at the time. Just generally, I think he would have found it quite difficult to pick up stuff. So, I think that probably plays a part in it.

Hatty

And do you know what? I'd have just realised my own problems when I was a child. When I was saying about being scared, I think part of that was like I'd go on a Saturday morning and it would all this like shouting 'cause it'd be more like not lessons, it was like and I remember being quite scared, and I think it's got that. And I guess when I was in the sea In Cyprus, it was just quiet and it wasn't that echoiness.

Mark

Yeah.

Hatty

So I 'cause I've realised I've got sensory things more than I ever did realize. I've realized it a lot now. Like, so yeah, no, he he He still can't swim. I don't know what level he's at with school because I know he's in one of the lower levels. But that's then you can't get information from them, can you? So I was trying to say, I said, well, can you go from one side to the other, you know, without touching. He's like, uh on my back. I'm like, what?

Mark

That's valid, isn't it?

Hatty

And he's valid, but I was like, yes, I don't really know what he's learning at school, but he would pass with one-to-one. I think.

Mark

Well, this is this is what ha so we tried when when Jay got ejected from one swim club, we tried some smaller group sessions in a private pool. We clubbed together with sort of three or four other kids. For like a private session in the hope that that would help. That didn't help. Same again.

Hatty

Didn't want to follow instructions.

Mark

Just did his own thing. And that was also quite expensive to not really be learning. So we realized I think at that point it wasn't really worth it. But uh we found a new place And Tam at this point had been doing all of this with Jay. And so I think Tam was just like, Yeah, you do it. I'm out, right? I've had a go. It's your turn. So I was like, all right, I've got this. Yeah, okay, I'll do this. So we took him to this other place, which was very good. It was a swimming pool attached to a school. And it was my worst nightmare. The whole thing was just because because also it was when I, for whatever reason, I had all three kids with me and it was quite small and the parents had to sit on a balcony above the pool. So I've got Jay in the pool Resolutely not listening, and I can see it, and I can also see that the other parents can see it. So, I'm feeling that level of judgment. I've also got Otto and India, who are both toddlers at this point, just going fucking nuts in the small balcony. So I'm trying to keep an eye on them. trying to keep an eye on Jay, seeing like, you know, and every now and again I'll look in the pool, I can't see him, where is he? And then I'll see this shape at the bottom. And he will have just like sunk to the bottom to do whatever he needed to do. And it was getting incredible. Incredibly stressful. And he was definitely one of the worst swimmers there as well. Because, you know, not because he wasn't coordinated, but because he just, I think it's just because he thought he knew it best.

Hatty

He was like, I know what I'm doing.

Mark

He didn't know best. He's there going, What's this loser know? So eventually we ditched that one because, again, I didn't feel that they were very supportive. Like we told them that he was autistic and they understood that, but they didn't do anything different. So, you know, we just sort of uh we stopped doing that and then Tam agreed that they would just take Jay to a local pool and that they would just do it and just just them two would do swimming, but not lessons, just go and Fuck around at a local pool. Yeah. And they would do that once a week, and that's how it worked. Basically, Tam would sort of nominally try and get him to, you know, to learn strokes and stuff. But it happens, I think, just by Messing around in the water and crucially, not drowning.

Hatty

So, okay, many questions. So what tha and none of those lessons the instructors got in the water with them?

Mark

No, they just stood on the side barking in an echoey definitely helped.

Hatty

The the the teacher that Keith had towards the ends he did get in the water. I mean, especially one lesson where he was the only one who turned up. He looked stupid if he stood on the side. So he got in with him And I think this other one where they I say it's attached to a school, it's not one to one, but every si when they go up and down, they go with them. Oh, Otto did that.

Mark

That's really good. That was attached to a school as well, right? So they get sort of um Yes, so they have instructors positioned all the way along the length and then they do the length and they sort of go from instructor to instructor and they'll sort of just redirect them. So Otto had that.

Hatty

But I wonder what Jay would be like if you tried to teach him in the sea? I don't know.

Mark

I mean well, he can swim now. Like Jay can swim. He's nailed it. He's really confident. Yeah, so Tam no, Tam took him and they just sort of hooned around in the water and and, you know, Tam did a bit of tuition and then he just got it. And so he's totally he's a really confident swimmer now. Otto is also pretty confident. He took him a while, but and as I said, he did the same thing that you were saying. instructors positioned all the way along, and he is not very well coordinated anyway. Just in general, he's quite clumsy and malcoordinated. Um so he was always sort of it's 'cause swimming requires coordination With your whole body, and he would end up sort of veering off or going around in circles because one side of his body was doing a different thing, and he'd be swimming into other people's lanes and stuff, which is why it was helpful for instructors to be positioned all the way around because they could sort of redirect him out of other people's faces. And now he's again, I think he's made the most progress not being in swimming lessons, but just us being in the in the water playing. I think that that's the way that he's done it. Now I will say that the hardest to teach out of all of my kids is India.

Hatty

Really?

Mark

Because again, she is PDA, but she is fiercely independent and absolutely refuses to acknowledge that she can't swim. Oh God. So so she is insistent that I leave her when we're in the pool. I can't. I can't leave her. If we're in a big pool, if we're in a smaller pool, which we did it thi this weekend, it was really lovely. There was like a private pool where we went, and that was fine because she could reach the sides, you know, relatively easily, so it wasn't a bit a big thing. But When we're in a bigger pool, I have to be with her. I'm not at that point yet. And and she she won't listen. If I say, You know, when you swim If you use your legs and your arms, you'll go way quicker. And she is absolutely like, What do you know, loser? I've got my own style. She actually said, I've got my own style. And she, it's like an, yeah. And it's like an eel, but with significantly less elegance.

Hatty

Okay.

Mark

Like it's so she doesn't d use her arms. It's all legs and a lot of head and and a bit of shoulder and it it looks insane.

Hatty

Oh, but she will not be told.

Mark

She won't be told. And I've tried I've tried really hard and she won't she won't do it. So she's doing her own thing. And she's essentially convulsing underwater is what it looks like. But she's actually pretty good at not drowning now.

Hatty

Well, I mean, that's all we're trying to achieve, isn't it? I mean it's a classic. I mean, all all us parents, we all moan, whether the neurodiverse or not, about taking our kids swimming. And the amount of times that other mums say to me Oh, that's it now. They can swim and they won't drown on holiday. That's it. I'm taking them out of the lessons. I can't. do it anymore. I can't go to that swimming pool and blah, blah, blah. So I think we do it because we're oh, it's a life skill, isn't it? It's a life

Mark

And all this, and yeah, no, I think, you know, not drowning, I think, is is that's it. But to be fair, there will be certain situations that India would have no chance. If she fell overboard in the sea, not got much hope. You know, I don't think at that point, So uh and again, I dread if that ever happened because I'd have to jump in to save her and she would resolutely refuse to accept my help. I can do it. I can do it, Daddy. But I think, you know We're getting there. So obviously, I've sort of spoken about me not really enjoying swimming, but because my kids love it, I do it with them as often as I can because there are many things w that we can all do outside of the house together.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

You know, just because they've got such different needs, Jay doesn't often want to leave the house anyway. And if he does, he'll want to do something that the other two don't want to do, or Otto will want to go play football and the other two don't. And so it's really hard getting a thing that we can all do together So, as a solo parent, finding this one thing that they're all really up for is like, yeah, I'll take the hit. That's absolutely fine. I'll go do it. Um, so we go every every weekend I have them, we go swimming, and I really genuinely love it. It becomes this sort of excursion and it sort of fills maybe two, two and a half hours of our afternoon. And it is a massive rigmarole. Yeah. Like there's so much so much faff that we shouldn't have to

Hatty

Be doing, but you must have if you're going that regularly, then you must have things down to a fine art now.

Mark

Well, do you want to tell me yours first? Actually, I'm always curious as to other people's What's your routine like when you go?

Hatty

We're lucky that it's round the corner.

Mark

So you can walk?

Hatty

Yeah, we can walk there. It's not um my favourite one, but it's just so convenient. And the other ones the other swimming pools are more like got loads of flumes and stuff like that. And they do like that, but I find them a bit stressful because might not be so bad now, but like One wants to go the other way, one goes the other way, and it's like, well, yeah, you lose sight of your children.

Mark

Yeah, and then because parents are neurodivergents, that's stressful in a way that you're talking about. But then your parents won't understand.

Hatty

I know, but this local one, it's just local council. It's not very fancy, it's not nice at all in that way, um, but it's fine. Um, so I can dress them in their they wear their swimming stuff before we leave the house.

Mark

Nice, yes, this is a big win. That's what we do. Absolutely gold.

Hatty

They have their noodles. They like a noodle, long floaty noodle thing. Nice pool noodle. I've, yeah, so I've now sort of. Well, that's not a big so then they can just wear their crocs and stuff as well, because I cannot stand the socks and all that is.

Mark

Yes, getting socks on after swimming is the worst thing.

Hatty

So they wear their crocs and if it depends on what the weather's like. I mean if obviously it was now, we just walk around there in their swimming trunks. I would not care.

Mark

Oh yeah, but the weather is never this hot normally.

Hatty

No. Um, but even if it's just a bit hot, I'm like, standing around the corner, just bung a T-shirt over you th that'll be fine, but get there. Um, and then, yeah, I'll try to be organized and having like The stuff in separate bags. So, like, the one bag is ready for when they come out. So, we put it in. Oh, you got two. Double bagging. Yeah. That's a great idea.

Mark

I've genuinely never thought of that. What on earth am I thinking about?

Hatty

And then you've got to think about where you place it in the lock. Where you've got to have certain bags at the front. Come out, and obviously, mime won't. Sometimes they will have a shower. They like a shower to go in. They know they've got to get wet before they go in. They're fine with doing that. And again, because I'm like, oh no, otherwise I'm going to have to get home and wash the hair. I do make them wash their hair, but there's normally a bit of screaming about it. And then I mean, it's so much better now. But when they were younger, oh my God, trying to get yourself dressed and they're like screaming. We always used to have a packet. I know it's probably bad. We always used to have a packet of crisps. I put the towel on them. I'd give them the crisps.

Mark

They've got while you're getting them changed afterwards.

Hatty

Sorry, this is when we come out now. I've bypassed what's happening in the pool because we're just in the pool. We've got our noodles, we've got our goggles, we're off. And then when we come back out, which m see my pool does like sections, so it's quite good. The whistle blows, your se your time's over. I don't have to be the bad guy and say we're getting out of there. He just says it's, you know, your session is over. Get out. Get it out. Yes, we get out, we get in the shower, scream, scream, scream because of the soap, bruh, whatever. And then, but yeah, whatever, kids. Whatever. I put a towel around them. Packet of Chris so that I but this was when they were littler, you see, so I could get dressed because it's that thing of like face mask yourself, but get myself dressed. Because don't you just know they're going to do the whole thing of like, you know, clothes dropping on the floor and they're getting wet and all that. Yeah, we'll get onto that. I just hate all that. But mainly because Arsenal in Paul, the design of it, the changing room is so badly designed It's really hot, obviously. They're all really hot. People are coming in. The door, the the it's so narrow, the bit where you've got to go in and people come out of as well. And of course, there's never a big one. Big changing room available, never, never. And so you stand in there and yeah. Do you get changed?

Mark

Di this is the thing now because so Keith is nearly ten. And your other one is nearly seven. Do you choose the family changing room?

Hatty

Oh, yeah, still now, yeah. I mean, I haven't been with them for about three months, but I would think I definitely would. I think the last time though, because they're a bit older, there wasn't one available. I went, well, you can we'll go in individual ones. So we could

Mark

Was Keith down with that? Was he okay with that?

Hatty

He's all right with it, but nothing gets done.

Mark

Yeah, okay, okay.

Hatty

Do you know what I mean? So I open the door and he still It's just like getting ready for school in the morning. I go there and I go, Well, there's your towel, da da da da da and then I I I get myself dressed, go back and he's still just sat there or playing with something for a while.

Mark

And it makes you wonder what the fuck he's finding to do in a cubicle 'cause there's nothing there. It's just like four walls.

Hatty

You'll find something, honestly. It's incredible.

Mark

It's incredible. The capacity for distraction is phenomenal. Without a lot, I've got the routine pretty nailed now. I very rarely have to encourage them to leave the house because they love swimming. So that's enough. That's one joy, right? I don't have to, you know, when I say it's time for swimming. they will stop what they're doing and they'll do it, which is wow, that's how much they love it.

Hatty

So I think mine would be the same, yeah.

Mark

So they get their swimming stuff on, like you get their swimming stuff on beforehand. Otto and India always wear a onesie over their swim stuff. Onesie and Crocs. It's the classic uniform for neurodivergence, right? Easy to get on and off. We only have to have one outfit. You know, we don't have to do pre-swim outfit, post-swim outfit, same thing.

Hatty

Jay, we have to.

Mark

Yeah, Jay won't wear a onesie now in public, but he will wear Crocs and something just easy to get on and off because he gets the deal. We will then get in the car. I will have Two bags. I'll have one bag just for Jay, and I'll have one bag for the other two and me. I'm now thinking Based on recent feedback from you, that I can definitely introduce at least a third bag and say, because at the moment I'm cramming everything into one like bag for life, and it's just painful. So That'll be an upgrade for the next swimming trip. So we get there, and I want to spend as little time as possible in the like reception because my kids just fucking scatter, right? Because where we go, there's like a squash court They've I've found them on the squash court before because they set the lights off when they go on there and the lights come on, so they love that. You know, I mean, they weren't people playing squash at the time, just to be clear. But but they're like they're off there because and I'm having to queue up to say, Yep, we're here, you know, got get the wristbands and all of that side of things. And they've just scattered to the four corners, and then I get asked the dreaded question. So, where are your children? Right? Because, not that they're judging me, but they need to assess the age to Work out whether they can swim or whatever. So, I then have to call them to me, and I'm panicking because there's a queue behind me, and I'm like shouting their names, and they're obviously not listening because they're in their own fucking world. Eventually they will emerge from different nooks and crannies of the leisure center and they'll come and join me. And then they'll go, Look, these three are mine. Then we'll get the wristbands and we'll go in. We're going to the changing rooms. Jay's got his own bag, and he, at this point now, at the age of years, doesn't want anything to do with us. So he'll go and find his own little cubicle.

Hatty

Okay.

Mark

He'll do his own thing. And up until very recently, I would be in one big one with Otto and India. And that was a flipping nightmare. That was incredibly stressful because obviously they get distracted a lot. There's a huge amount of distraction. So trying to get them changed when there's three would like it of even a family change with three of us because they use a lot of space, my kids. They're not they're small, but they use the whole space. That's why we get the outfits on that's why we get the swimming stuff on first. It's usually the trying to get a onesie on a wet body afterwards. Is the nightmare. For whatever reason, it's uniquely difficult to do. So trying to get them changed is like trying to get leggings on a pig. You're sort of wrestling, trying to wrestle them.

Hatty

If I went swimming in this weather now, I'd just go, right, let's just walk home in your swimming costume.

Mark

Yeah, but I'm not a walking distance. I have to get in the car and that means that I will have wet children in my car, which no no one needs. So I think the the worst thing about getting changed in the family change is the fucking noise that they managed to create. There is like the kerfuffle. And because those cubicles are not soundproof, do you know what I mean? You could, there's for whatever reason, you can see over them, you can see under them, all this noise is just escaping. the bit like I used to be mortified by just the stuff that they would say and the like the loudness and the was so disruptive. And you see other families Just neatly just getting on with it. You know, I can imagine the children folding their clothes neatly in a pile. Here you go, mummy. I've done the folding myself this time. Well done, sweetheart. I might buy you a biscuit afterwards. All of this shit where my kids are just like, eh, you know, they're I'm lucky if they keep their clothing in our cubicle Because they're just flinging them around. There have been times where I've had to ask the person in the cubicle next to me to shove the crock back.

Hatty

Can you pass back those pants, please? Oh, yeah.

Mark

Sorry, mate.

Hatty

Mummy would always say stuff like, Mommy, what's that? Why have you got that hairy bit and all that sort of thing?

Mark

Yeah, yeah. And it's all very, very public. And so that's a problem. The noise. Oh, it used to be. Now I'm just like, yeah, this is who we are. And to be honest, I make it a bit it's a bit of a show now. You know, I do a bit of a running commentary.

Hatty

So now you all have your own You all have your own individual.

Mark

So now we do, and what's happened recently is that India has decided that she wants to be independent as well, which is fine. Otto also now fancies trying that. So what I do is I get three individual cubicles in a row.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

Right. And the place we go to, that is actually quite achievable. Then I go in the middle one, and I've got Indy one side and Otto the other. And then we're swapping crocs and onesies and goggles. like it's some kind of drug deal. You know, one goes under the cubicle, one side, you know, and then he'll fling over his onesie and then he'll Shove his shorts back under and go, Can you get them on inside out, please, Daddy? It's like, Okay, yeah, of course, I'll do that. So, all of this stuff happens. And that's actually a lot more harmonious now. And we're having a little chat as we do it. It's quite fun. When we were in the family change, there was always the worst nightmare was because you said it's about getting your gas mask on first, right, before the kids. I didn't do that. I get them done first. Which in hindsight is an error, right? Because then they're just fucking about while I'm trying to get changed. But They are hugely impatient, particularly Otto. He's ready. He wants to go. So I cannot count the amount of times that I've been trying to get my shorts on. And he's just opened the door. He's like, right, we're getting. And that just exposed me to the world. And I'm like, just close the door. We're not ready yet. I said we weren't ready, Otto. And so I'm just there on display for all and sundry.

Hatty

It's yeah, so this is why I took packets of Chris and genius and even like books or something, so I knew what he was like.

Mark

Yeah, you've got to distract them at all times because otherwise they'll find their own entertainment, right? So, yeah, it's happened too many times to the point that I think the staff of the Leisure Centre are getting suspicious that it's on purpose now. So now we've got individual cubicles. It's much better. It's much better. And I can see it from Otto's perspective. He's like, well, I'm ready. Dude, you know, he doesn't see anything from my perspective. Why would he? He's ready. Let's go.

Hatty

Well, did did do they do any of them do summon at school?

Mark

Ah, so, um, Jay, I don't think, did. Otto was supposed to, but he couldn't handle it. Like it because they had to get on a bus because it wasn't attached the swimming pool wasn't attached to the school. Not that kind of school, you know. So they had to get on a mini bus, and that was overwhelming for him and dysregulating for him. So then they get there and I think the whole kerfuffle that we've just talked about about getting changed and getting in the pool was a lot for him. And so he just opted out. And initially he would go and just sit and read a book or do something on the side. And then in the end, he was like, I don't even want to do that So obviously, you know, we're very good at advocating for him now, and the school are incredibly good at accommodating him. So we're just like, it's too much for him. There's too much transition. It's the noise is too overwhelming. He doesn't want to do the swimming, so can we find something different? So they they have, which has been amazing.

Hatty

Oh, that's good. And you're saying that Keith goes swimming with the school Yeah, but I and as I said, I don't re I I don't really well it's so 'cause it's so close. I see I can hear them, you know, when you hear and I and every week I wave and he loves it 'cause um but It the TA is always with it. It makes me laugh. They're all walking along carrying their bags. Who's not carrying their bag?

Mark

Lord Keith.

Hatty

And I go, Where's your bag? I shout, Where's your bag? And the TA goes, I've got it. But she's smiling. They all That's the thing. I know everyone says it, but they all love him. The ones that get him, they all love him.

Mark

And it's he's a character, right?

Hatty

He's got personality. I thought, you know, yeah, it goes with the school, but I don't, yeah, I can't get I need to ask The the teacher next that's the only way I find out is at the school gates or wherever I ask. I go, How is he?

Mark

What is he?

Hatty

Is he drowning? I imagine he's just in the lower group at the bobbing about. I think there must be a bobbing about group 'cause I think I know there's some other kids that are yeah find it hard to listen.

Mark

Yeah. Next, shall we say what are the unique things about go swimming? which I find unnecessarily stressful is when you're actually changed and you leave the changing rooms. Right, you've got to find a locker. And for families of neurotypical kids, I would imagine it's just like, stand there, I'll put it in the locker, then we'll go. Right. I cannot do that. My kids are so impatient. So they already want to make a beeline for the water. It's like, no, we can't do that yet. Firstly, because India, I'm not confident that she she's gonna be able to swim on her own. So but she's made a beeline. So I'm trying to like wrangle everyone. So like, come and k you know. Help me out, right? Just wait there. I will turn my back and try try and cram all of this stuff into a single locker because, you know, I mean, it's hard enough finding a pound. Now. Yeah. Why they don't do contact contactless lockers now, I don't know because no one's got cash anymore. So I'm trying to find a pound. I've eventually managed to find one. And I managed to cram everything into one locker. And I turn around, and almost always, my kids are not there.

Hatty

Yeah, I was just about to say that. I was gonna go, how many times? I've said, sit there. They are not just waiting patiently for under the hairdryer thing. Oh, okay.

Mark

Yeah, they they like that. But my kids have this thing where they hide in lockers.

Hatty

Yes, every every time. What am I talking about? They get into a locker and it's a game for them.

Mark

So I have to then walk along all the lockers listening for the giggling. trying to work out which one which one's got my kids in, right? And I think it's the sensory thing as well. It's partly a prank thing, but also they like the enclosed space, right? In India loves being in a box anyway. So she's probably the ringleader of all of this. Jay's getting bigger now. I'm worried he's going to get stuck at some point. Um, my favorite time Was when when Jay had climbed into a locker to hide from me, right. But I wasn't the one that found him first. Someone else had evidently found him because I realized he was around the corner and I just heard someone go, Oh! And I kind of worked out what had happened at this point is that she'd found Jay before I did. And he wasn't sure what to do. So I think he just sort of closed the door again on himself. And hope that they walk away. So I obviously had to make apologies. You know, I'm terribly sorry.

Hatty

Let's get out. I've only done awful things where. 'Cause now the little one's having lessons and he it's different world. Like he's listening. He did have a bit of a bad phase with But it was more afterward, he was like, I didn't like that teacher and he's he's he's doing really well and he actually enjoys it, blah blah blah.

Mark

But so now we have this thing where so you've seen the old the other side of it then. I've seen the other side. This is the thing that I have, because obviously I've got like wall-to-wall neurodivergence in my cells, right? So I've never experienced, and a lot of me. wonders if I'm just attributing all childhood characteristics to neurodivergency. So if you've been to the other side, what's it like? What then? Is it as wonderful as it sounds, Hatty?

Hatty

It hits nice. And there was a moment where I thought, oh my god, because he was. But it was a different kind of not focusing. I can't explain it, but like the minute he changed teachers, it he it just sort of clicked f for him.

Mark

And yeah, it was by choice, maybe he chose not to focus.

Hatty

Yeah, and it was just sort of like exciting. It was different. With with Keith, it was more like you could just literally see his like it's wandering off or blah blah blah. Whereas with The little one, he I don't know, it was just, yeah, like you say, by choice.

Mark

There's a thing I think that you're right about the wandering off, because it's not just that mentally they're not present. Physically, they're not present as well. So, like, I think you can you know, if I'm drifting off or whatever, or I'm not paying attention I'll still physically be standing there and not really moving, but paying attention. And I think that's what it's like for neurotypical kids that aren't paying attention.

Hatty

They're still standing there, but my kids are like just very evidently evidently not there. Wandered. I mean, Keith's one of his things, he twirls. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Mark

You know, you're losing him when he starts twirling.

Hatty

Yeah, and I always tell him. But yeah, I quite like the little twilight. But yeah, so with the swimming pool, it's the same, isn't it? It's like, I think he really is like, how did I end up here?

Mark

Yeah, so you don't have to worry about your younger kids.

Hatty

So the younger one, but. Poor Keith has to come with us to the lesson. But like it's only for half an hour and I take a book and we have things in place and blah, blah, blah. So but a lot of the time he will still go and play in the locker when we're doing the changing. What takes ages is he then encourages his brother and because his brother's little, he's like, This is a great game.

Mark

It is a great game to be Fair, if I could get in that locker, I'd be there as well.

Hatty

Exactly, and it's funny you brought it up because I just thought, oh, that's what all kids do. But now I'm thinking, I'm like, I have never seen one other kid. Get in those lockers.

Mark

I think it's yeah, because I think they don't see the world in that way. It's weird. Like, you know, they There's a thing about neurodivergency that they see the world in different ways and interesting ways and go and don't just look at that locker and go, Well, that's to put clothes in. They look at that and go, I reckon I can make it. And and when they get in there, they're like, This feels excellent. I want to stay in here. So eventually, I've got all the clothes in the locker and all the kids out of the locker, right? There's that's the objective achieved. And then we go we actually go swimming. The actual swim. We have not even got onto the swim yet, Hatty.

Hatty

Yeah, sorry. I didn't get bypassed my actual gear.

Mark

No, um, and again, I can't just wait on the side. because India shows no signs of being an independent swimmer yet. And also, to be honest, Jay sometimes gets a bit overwhelmed and dysregulated, and that manifests itself by him being just fucking furious and he'll get really annoyed at people. So I have to be there to sort of divert that anger a little bit sometimes or you know, distract him in other ways. And Otto just needs me there. He wants b not not necessarily from a s safety point of view, but because he needs entertaining. And so I'm the entertainment. He needs constant interaction with people to help him like he's got a very, very busy brain. I think more than more so than the other two. So he constantly wants to play a game or ask questions or you know, or talk about something. So if he was just in the swimming pool on his own I think it would be less fun for him. And I'll be honest, like, although I hate swimming as a thing, I really love going swimming with my kids. Because we've got this set of games now that we play. And it's we are very disruptive. You know, one of the games is that they have to hang on, you know, the bar bar on the side.

Hatty

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

They have to hang on to that, and I will try to yank them off. And that takes up quite a lot of space because I'm literally, and it looks like I'm trying to drown them or something as they're hanging on. And I'm just like, but they love it.

Hatty

They're a really bad swimming teacher.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. Get in the pool. So that's one of the games we play, and they all do it. And it involves a lot of me flinging them into water. Or like playing this game where I wrangle them into a cave and they have to escape and have to go dragging.

Hatty

Oh, I think we've got one like that. You just reminded me, because I say it's been about three months, but there's one where it's like There's an out of bounds area and I think they go on my one goes on my back.

Mark

Okay. Yeah.

Hatty

And I'm like, you know, the boat or Or the shark or whatever. And then we're trying to get Keith. And then 'cause but the thing is, a lot of times Keith wants to play his own He's quite happy to do his own thing.

Mark

Yes, that's good.

Hatty

Because his whole thing is imagination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got his own stories playing out. And if anything, after he just gets annoyed with us because The little one wants him to play some kind of game.

Mark

You're cramping his style, basically.

Hatty

They started, but he's he bless him. I feel sorry for the little one sometimes because he really wants an older brother who's going to play games with him. And Keith is really happy to play on his own. But they have I think the little one is really learning to like tap into what he likes So they've got one now. I hear them say in the hot hot tub, Shall we play Mario? I don't know what that game is, but it involves them going round and round in a circle and I love it when they do that though.

Mark

Mine do that and it's It's really lovely when you have these little games that you play, and it's really nice. The only time that that is sort of under jeopardy is when, for example, it's like really busy. So sometimes you'll go in a pool. Like sometimes you'll you'll go to pool and it'll be pretty empty. But like at half term, sometimes I'll book in at half term and I'll forget that it's half term. And it will be full of kids, like teenagers, who are there on their own. So they're just kind of careering around in a way that you and I would have done as teenagers as well. It's not, I'm not blaming the teenagers, but there's like there's that. Manic energy and it's too much, and Jay absolutely hates that. He can't, he can't handle it. So We've sort of gone out with this plan to go swimming for the next, you know, hour or hour and a half or whatever. And Jay will get there and he'll be like, I want to go home straight away. And as soon as he's made that decision, Everyone gets out. You might as well just go on the tanner and make that announcement. Can everybody get out of the pool now? Because Jay's pissed off. Because Jay wants to. Yeah, because that's it. Like, he. There's no negotiating. He's made up his mind. This, and I get it because it's he's got had an expectation of the experience, and it's now more overwhelming than he wanted it to be. It wasn't what he signed up to. So It's not like I'll just tolerate it or I'll find a quiet space and just do a thing. It's like, no, we're done. Everyone out now. We've got to go. So, and that's frustrating because sometimes, like, Otto is more fine with that kind of thing. And India. And they don't want to go because they they've only just got there, right?

Hatty

Yeah. How do you deal with that? Because I find that sometimes it catches me off guard as well. You're like, as in, I don't know why I forget that he can, because yeah, Keith can be like that. It's like, if he's gonna go, there's no, we've all gotta go, mate. Yeah, but also, you know, he's overwhelmed.

Mark

So his, you know, his overwhelm is, it trumps my desire to be there for a bit longer. Obviously, we've got

Hatty

India and Ottos needs to consider and they wanted to be their marker and they'd get that's what I found hard now being a single parent because before that would be the sort of scenario it was like, well, I'll stay you know, I'll stay. You know, blah, blah, blah. So it's all or nothing with us.

Mark

And, but what I've found I do a lot more now is narrating what's going on. And this is something I've learned through doing Neuroshambles and talking to guests. And just saying, well, look, at the moment, this is too busy for Jay. He's really overwhelmed and he's really dysregulated. And he said that he wants to go. And I think, you know, because he's feeling that way. we're going to need to go. And just narrating that at least sort of gives them a little bit of an insight into advocating for their needs, I guess, a little bit, or speaking up for themselves and to encourage them to do the same if they're in that same situation. To be honest, at that point, I'll say to Jay, like, all right, go in the shower. Because they love the showers, right? That is fun. So he can go in the shower and he can be there for like 10 minutes. And then I can say to Otto in India, okay, here's what we'll do. We'll do like round the little whirlpool bit. And then we'll go around this bit. We'll do a little bit of cave escape and then we'll go into the shower. So I then set, okay, we're not going all straight away. I give Jay that bit of time in the shower and Say these are the steps we're going to take, and then we're going. So, I'm giving the other two that build-up as well. But it's fucking hard, isn't it? Yeah, it's not easy.

Hatty

Think about it. I mean, that is just that is army military.

Mark

But because we go all the time, so I get how it works now, right?

Hatty

Yeah, wow.

Mark

One of the other things that gets to me when the swimming pool, for whatever reason, they have to wear goggles, right? Goggles. But. Only for about five minutes, and then I have to hold them. So they give me their goggles. Well, I have to take them because otherwise they'll just leave them and lose them. Right? And goggles are not cheap, are they?

Hatty

No, they're like a tenor, a pop now.

Mark

Yeah. So I have to constantly be on the like, where are your goggles? Then Otto will be like, I don't know, because he has no executive function. He can't remember where they are. So then I set a mission to the other two to go find the goggles. They'll find them, and I've got to then put them on my arm. And I'll have three pairs of goggles on my wrist. I'll have a locker key on my other wrist. I'll also have the wristbands that you get. to come into the swimming pool. Not just mine, but also India's, because India is massively dysregulated by having anything on her, like a wristband. So she can't do that. So I have to have two wristbands. So it looks like I've been to a summer of festivals. Just fucking so much shit on my arms. That it's a surprise I can stay afloat after all that. There's so much. So much on them. But the goggles, goggles is a thing, like losing goggles. Because when you get out, right? And you've got to wrangle them into clothing. And that's a unique, you know, because they're just a bit Sometimes a bit grumpy that they have to go out and just a bit wet and probably hungry and a bit tired. So it's a little bit more cantankerous when you're getting out. And Jay will lose some goggles. Because he'll assume that he's given them to me or I will give them back to him, but he'll forget and then he'll lose them. And I have now found The perfect thing if you lose goggles, right? Now, goggles are going to get lost. You've got neurodivergent kids, you're having to deal with lots of different plates that you're spinning in that whole process. Goggles are going to get lost. You can try and change that, but it's a fact of life. Here's what you do if you lose goggles.

Hatty

Okay.

Mark

The next time you go swimming. You go to reception and you say, My child left their goggles here last last week. And their eyes light up. They fucking love this because they reach under the desk and they pull out the box of lost goggles and it is overflowing with goggles that kids have forgotten because p people just write them off, right? They just go, oh, those goggles are gone forevermore. We'll never see them again. So they, you know, they just have this massive box of goggles. And then what you do is basically go through them and go, Are these yours? Were these your goggles? Now, the problem is, obviously, if you've you if you've got autistic kids Where truth and honesty is paramount, then if they find it difficult To lie when they're not their goggles. Because you're not going to find their actual goggles. The chances of you finding their actual goggles in amongst that lot are astronomical. Um so you have to say, look, okay, if you see a pair of goggles you like, I know they're not your goggles, right? Your goggles are gone. If you see a pair that you like and that you could tolerate, say yes and we'll just move on. And I did that. Uh I've done that a couple of times now. And it's great.

Hatty

Yeah, I know. I've seen the box. I can't remember how. I think it was like a second week running, we'd forgotten them. And I was like, I am not buying them again. And I think I did something similar. I either went and lied and said, or some I don't know, but there's one woman there. She's she She knows me now. I've been going quite. I don't even have to sign in. I just walk in. Like, all that stuff you were saying about signing, looking they just like open the doors. Oh, here she is. The woman with crazy kids. It's like the doors come open. And she knows me and I think I went to buy 'em and I think she just got the box out and went here to take one of these

Mark

No, nice, you're in.

Hatty

Yeah, and it was streaming over with goggles.

Mark

Yeah, because no one collects them. So, that is my advice to any Neuroshamblers out there that has this. this regular problem with losing goggles. Just go get some more. Because the thing is, your goggles are not, you know, you're just really swapping one pair of goggles for another, right? They're just in the general pool of goggles throughout the world and there's one in, one out policy. It's fine. It's just part of the, you know, the the whole goggle sphere.

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It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, so the positives. I think there are a lot of positives about swimming with NeuroDivergent. Normally, I'm scraping the barrel to find some positives out of what are quite difficult experiences. And okay, logistically, it can be quite tricky at times, but the joy that my neurodivergent kids, and I've got one of every different flavor that they get out of swimming is worth the effort. It really is. Despite the fact that I don't really enjoy swimming myself, I absolutely love taking them and they never say no when I suggest it. That's a great thing. So it's this Put a place for them to get whatever sensory needs that they need to get out, and um, that's a huge positive of doing a thing that they all enjoy and tires them out, right? Surely you no, okay. No, it does. It does to a degree. What it does actually is m it is just relieves me of a little bit of guilt when we get back in the house and they're back on their screens.

Hatty

Because we've done a bit of physical.

Mark

Yeah. We've done a bit of exercise. We've got out the house. Let's tick two boxes. Now you can go on the screens while I make pizza for dinner. That's why I really like it because it's this set routine that we're all into now. And it's yeah, it's it works really well. So that's a huge positive, I think. Another positive that I wanted to mention, and this is quite an unusual one, but it was an interesting experiment. We used to go to this special autistic swimming session that was actually organized. By Jo Matthews, one of the previous Neuroshambles guests. She's done the last couple of episodes. She is phenomenal. And I don't know how she did it, but she convinced a private college. to let a bunch of neurodivergents have the use of their swimming pool. And we drove up to this place. I'm not shitting you. It looked like Hogwarts It was fucking magnificent. And I'm like, are you sure this is the right place? They shouldn't be letting us in here. And we went in, and they opened the side door and we went through into this. Beautiful changing rooms with loads of space. And then we went in there, and there's this massive Olympic sized swimming pool with no one else in it, just a gang of autistics. and and two very scared looking lifeguards uh who are obviously students at the college and are making a little bit of extra money by like by being lifeguards And we just had that place for like an hour, and they got all the floats out, and the flippers out and the goggles out, and they used the diving boards, and it was absolute mayhem. But if you're a parent of neurodivergent kids, you just buy into it, right? You just know that like there are going to be kids Near you, probably drowning, just help them up onto their float again, let them crack on. You know, it was there was a kind of real ebb and flow to the parenting in that pool, which was A joy to behold, you know, because I think you do when you're in amongst other parents of neurodivergent kids. You don't, you're not just really looking out for your kids, you're looking out for everyone because it's kind of part of the consciousness. So it was it was wonderful. The lifeguards in the end realized that they didn't have anything to do. So at first they're like looking at you know, Jay is doing his like dead corpse in the water. thing again. And this lifeguard is getting increasingly unnerved 'cause he's been there for a while and he's looking over and he's like reaching for his like magic pool fishing net You know, and he's gonna try and I'm like, nah, it's fine. I've got him. He's fine. And I'll swim over and prove that he's alive. We're all happy. So they went from initially being concerned about everything to just basically going, Yeah, the parents have got it. You know, they're doing our job for us because they're in the water. They know their kids and they know so it was actually quite an easy gig for them in the end, apart from the noise.

Hatty

Oh, that sounds ideal.

Mark

Yeah, so that was wicked.

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Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions now. These are people or organizations who are doing wonderful things in the realms of neurodiversity. and championing it in the wider world. Have you got any neurodiversity champions you wanted to mention, Hatty?

Hatty

The first people come to my mind, but I mean, I don't They're just like, I don't know what their name is, and it's not like someone you could, but I'll just shout about them anyway. A little while ago at our school, they said people thought I think they're like an outreach Yeah, they're like an outreach from a local special school. So, what they started, they run this course, and it's mainly for ADHD parents. And they were like, Oh, it's a six week call So we just had to go along every Friday morning or something like that, eleven, we get a coffee and a biscuit and it was like this kind of workshop, but oh my God, it was so good like you just meet all these other parents that You hadn't spoken to before in the school that have also got ADHD kids. Some of them are undiagnosed, some of them diagnosed, some suspecting or whatever. But there's also the two women that run it, they were so lovely. They wasn't they were like, Look, this is safe space as in like, you know, we don't what happens in ADHD club does not go outside ADHD club. So, you know, be respectful of you know, people opening up about stuff. But they really wanted it to not be them preaching to us like this is what you should be doing. They wanted it to be that we're helping each other.

Mark

You're sharing your experiences and things you work for you and that kind of thing.

Hatty

Yeah, and at first you're thinking Well, I don't know about this. I want expert advice. But they were so right because it did. I know it's a stereotypical, but it did make you feel less alone. It did make you feel like you know, and now we're all on a WhatTEC group.

Mark

Nice, nice.

Hatty

And like I've been asking about because some of them have got kids that are in older years and sort of and I'm going to start looking at secondary schools soon or now. And so asking them what ones have they found, you know, were good for send departments and blah, blah, blah. And You know, and so I would shout out that. I mean, I don't know what that is part of. That was just a local school that had They I think they had to tick boxes of certain amount of outreach things that they were doing. They were just great women. And I was a right teacher's pair every week. Of course you were. I'll be asking someone, she'd go, Oh, very and every time I was so ADHD. Every time she'd go, Very good, Hatty. That was a good question. I'd go little dopamine hit. Yes, that's yes. She loves me. She loves me. She'd always compliment my gl my clothes and my glasses.

Mark

I was like, ah, they sound wonderful. Awesome.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

I've got a neurodiversity champion. So Bella Ramsay, I don't know if you know Bella Ramsey, the actor, they were in The Last of Us and Game of Thrones as well. And great actor, and also in The Worst Witch as well. Quite the range from The Worst Witch to Game of Thrones to Last of Us is quite the progression. But they have been speaking very publicly about being autistic in a lot of interviews because there was a lot of pre-press for The Last of Us. which was the the thing on Sky when this season two was released a couple of months ago. So there were a lot of interviews with Bella Ramsey discussing their neurotype. They were on the BBC and Vogue magazine and discussing how empowering it is to kind of own their neurotype and understand their neurotype and they were just really keen to say, Well, look, you know, you might not think that I'm autistic, but neurodiversity comes in all shapes and sizes and you know, I I really am proud that I'm able to talk about it. And it was just it was just you know, I I just love when people own it and they advocate for themselves and just kind of speak out about it. So I thought, you know, the more the more people especially people that are in the public eye, the more that people can destigmatize it and normalize it, the better.

Hatty

Absolutely.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Tiny epic wins time now. These are the things that in a neurotypical family wouldn't make any great waves, but to a family with neurodivergency at play, they are major wins. I always like to celebrate these small things. Have you got any tiny epic wins for us, Hatty?

Hatty

It was more of an epic wing for me, really. Yeah, I'll take it. He hasn't got an EHCP. We're trying to do it now. And the questions I was trying to get him to answer. To be honest, the way they were written was so hard.

Mark

What for the EHCP? Is this for for EHCP? Oh, it's a fucking nightmare, isn't it? You've got to do the child's voice interview.

Hatty

Yeah. And like I had to it felt like I had to have a degree in changing those questions. And I was like, so the first one was sort of like, what's not working for you at school, right?

Mark

Exactly, yeah.

Hatty

And he was like. it's fine. I like my movement times fine. I like going in the hub. And he couldn't find anything. So I had to really manipulate and You know, do my best, yeah.

Mark

It's like we're trying to get support here, kid. Make shit up, yeah.

Hatty

He can't say nothing, and so I was a full win for me because Asking the right knowing him and asking the right questions in the right way, I'd finally, you know, engineered something out. I was like, oh, gosh That is a great tiny epic way.

Mark

Because also, as someone with ADHD as well, you know, filling out a form like that, which is a massive undertaking for anyone, because those forms are horrendous. So for you to get through that and to manage to wrangle some semblance of an answer out of your kid That is a huge win. Good job.

Hatty

Yeah, so if you got an epic win.

Mark

So I've got a tiny epic win. Yeah, which really took me by surprise. And again, this seems like a really small thing, but it was huge. Otto walked into the kitchen. And he said, I want to show you a really cool instrument. Not now, because you're making dinner, so I'll show you later. Wow. That to me of a acknowledging that I'm doing a thing and I don't have time to listen to him because I'm doing something and that he'll do it later is the first time he's ever shown any ability to

Hatty

Read the room.

Mark

Yeah. Um, because especially if he's something he's excited to show me. It was like it really you know, sometimes you step back and go, I didn't realize you had that in you. Well, they evolve, though, don't they? This is what I've been talking about a lot lately. They they they level up, they learn these skills eventually. They're not going to forever be completely oblivious. They're going to pick things up. And this was just a little accelerator pad of evolution for him. Yeah, and it would make me smile. It was lovely. He still hasn't remembered to show me since, by the way.

Hatty

All right.

Mark

I need to remind him again. But yeah, it was a really good moment.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip!

Mark

Okay, what the flip moments now? These are the moments that our neurodivergent kids will say or do something that completely baffles us. And I I love I love these these kind of what the flip moments. Have you got any what the flip moments to share, Hatty?

Hatty

He said, Can I have my a he likes his apple cut into pieces as he calls it, right? And I said, Yeah, and I sort of like for a second went to do whatever, and he went I don't see you chopping. The sass on that. I know some people would sort of like tell off and at that, but I just laugh. I was like, flipping out. I was like, it's like living with a prison warden. And he went, Yeah, I know. He goes, I kit I see you, kid, watching Orange is the new black. Oh, man.

Mark

That whole conversation was like, you're really growing up, and yeah, there's been loads of what the flip I love it when they when they do that kind of thing I've got a couple of what the flip moments. One of them is from Jay, which he got really annoyed with our TV remote control because I think it was running low on batteries. And he was getting unnecessarily furious about it. And he just went, Ah, this T V remote sucks. I have to get so close to the T V to make it work. I'm going to be arrested for violating its personal space. That's brilliant. Yeah, that was that was a fun one. And the other one was from India, and I love this one. We're in the garden, and one of our trees. We've got a tree stump that's rotting, and it's about to kind of break. So I was gonna just kind of kick it over. And she went, Don't do that, Daddy. All of these trees are important, even the stupid ones Strews. Stupid trees. That was a nice little moment. Okay, so that is it for episode 41 of Neuroshambles. Hatty, thank you so much for being here. And because this has been the hottest recording session, I don't mean like this has been hot shit. I mean, it's been literally like just in temperature terms, it's been so hot, and we've somehow managed to keep it together throughout this episode. Thank you so much for joining me and coming back to Neuroshambles. For sharing your tales of swimming.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

Thank you also to you Neuroshamblers who are listening and who have said nice things on the socials or lovely emails that you've written in. If you want to email anything about things that you any any topics you've been affected by from today? Or if there's anything that you want to suggest for season three, which I'm now planning for in the summer, then please email me at hello at neuroshambles. com. You can also follow or contact me on the socials, on Instagram, on threads, on TikTok, and on Facebook. So There's plenty of places to keep in touch. Before I let you go, Hatty, is there anything you want to tell us about you? Obviously, your podcast is wonderful. I've listened to it recently.

Hatty

Tell me about that. So it's the Funny Mummies podcast and I talk to other comedian mums and dads and but mainly mums and about Yeah, how it's not really parents and podcasts, yeah, just getting it off your chest, having a little bit of winging it and moaning and laughing and unjudgmental chat with comedian mums. And we're now exclusive well, not exclusively, but if you want the full length version of the podcast, it's on Patreon. And there's extras and there's VIP things and all that kind of thing. Not dodgy VIP things. But you can get the shorter version with no VIP

Mark

You've funny mummy's basics.

Hatty

You've funny mummy's basics. That's on YouTube and um, you know, all the usual platforms. And other than that, I'm just gigging and I'm writing a new show that I'm gonna write. Do direct, but I'm not going to be in. There you go.

Mark

Oh, okay.

Hatty

Excellent.

Mark

Well, um, so have you got a website that people can keep in touch with you on?

Hatty

Yeah, just Hatty with a y, Ashdown dot com.

Mark

And I'll put a link in the show notes to that and to funny mummies as well.

Hatty

And you can find me in all the dating apps.

Mark

Thanks for that final plug there, Hatty. Lovely stuff. Never miss an opportunity. Okay, so I think that's about it. Uh for now, but uh all that remains for me to say is have a nice life.