Swearing | Heidi Mavir

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode 43 of Neuroshambles. This is the first episode of season three, and I am absolutely delighted that you are joining me once more. Firstly, I'll start off by saying I hope you managed to survive the summer holidays. And for any of you with neurodivergent school attenders Your return to school was within a tolerable range of turbulence. I think that's the best we can hope for. I'd also like to say apologies for leaving you in the lurch over the summer. I had planned to do some more stuff on the socials, and I was gonna release episode one a little bit earlier in September, but I'll be honest. It was only when I paused for breath that I realized how much I needed a complete break to reset my frazzled brain. Now that's achieved, I am raring to go with season three of Neuroshambles. I've got some great topics planned and a whole bunch of guests already lined up. Some new, some returning, but every single one of them excellent humans. So let's put my money where my mouth is and get started.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So I thought I'd start season three with a bang by bringing back a Neuroshambles favourite, as well as being a late-diagnosed neurodivergent parent to a now fully grown neurodivergent human. She's also a bestselling author, a public speaker, and a fierce advocate for families navigating the unholy nightmare of EHCPs and the Send Tribunal system. She is an absolute bloody tour de force. So I am delighted to welcome her back. It's Heidi Mavir. How you doing, Heidi?

Heidi

Jesus, that's something to live up to, isn't it? God.

Mark

Don't fuck it up now.

Heidi

No pressure.

Mark

What did I say there that's not correct?

Heidi

Tour de force. I mean, I'll take it

Mark

I think you should own it. Welcome back, anyway, how are you doing, Heidi?

Heidi

Thank you. Yeah, I'm good. It's nice to be able to enjoy these conversations, as you know. I'd do it even if we weren't recording it, but then that would maybe be a bit weird if you and me just got together to ramble.

Mark

Not at all. So for those of you who might not have heard a previous episode with you, let's just remind them of Your neurodivergent setup.

Heidi

So, my setup is my son Theo, who is going to be 21 in October, crashed out of school when he was 15.

Heidi

And kind of what that started the ball rolling I say rolling, like hurtling towards a realization that He was autistic in ADHD, and so am I. So that was like six years ago. And since that point, we have done like a complete 180 just in about every single aspect of our lives. So we do everything. totally differently to how we did it before because we've learned that as a neurodivergent household, that's the way things have to roll for us. And I guess the thing that people might know me for is that I wrote a book called Your Child Is Not Broken about our experience of Theo not being able to go to school anymore and the fuckery that came with that.

Mark

Yeah, which is one of the first books I read that I was like, oh my god, this is my life. Like you know, um yeah, so I loved it and that's why why I got you on the in the the first season.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

So yes, if you haven't read that Buckets, it's awesome, and I'll put a link in the show notes.

Heidi

And now we're like a few years down the road, Theo is recovered from the burnout he was in. I'm recovered from the burnout that followed his burnout, and we're kind of I guess I was going to say bobbling along, but we're not really bobbling along. We're kind of smashing it, if I'm honest. I'm fairly proud of it. Nice. Lovely to hear.

Mark

It is, you know, this is something that I think is useful for people to know. um on the back of this because I do feel a little bit like we're I wouldn't go so far as smashing it but but I feel like we've we've reached a kind of a plateau where we're kind of all a bit more comfortable. And a lot of people listening to Neuroshambles are deep in this sort of The turmoil of like, what to know what's going on and what strategy should I use and fighting and advocating and all of that sort of things. And You know, I think it's useful to know sometimes that there is light at the end of the tunnel and you can reach that sort of level of Peace almost, I know it's not peaceful in my house ever, but that sort of acceptance of where you are and who you are. And I think that's a really important thing for people to bear in mind, that it's not always going to be a a shift.

Heidi

And there might be and there almost certainly will be other tunnels. But right now, we're enjoying the scenery of not being in a tunnel. So yeah, we're. We've just both jinxed it. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, like we haven't grown out of our autism, that's not a thing.

Heidi

But we seem to have found our flow a little bit more.

Heidi

And he's now at university, which is probably a big part of how we're managing because we're no longer living together twelve months of the year. He's just been home for four months for the summer, which has been lovely, and he's going back next weekend. So we're now quite both anxious about next weekend. But yeah, we've kind of found our flow a little bit and we're just we have the vocabulary for things, we have a understanding of what's going on, we have a lot more compassion for ourselves and for each other, and that makes a difference.

Mark

So Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But I think as our kids get older and they understand how to advocate for themselves and to go, this is what I need. And you are then able to give that. It's really tricky when you're in the early, earlier years when they don't know what's going on and you don't know what's going on and you

Heidi

Want to help and you can't, and especially when they're teens, like teenagers are like just little balls of anxiety, and they are dying. I've got this oh my god, backstrapping because it's days 12 like that. Yeah, I mean, like, as far as hormonal messes go, I'm dealing with that right now. He's kind of through that bit.

Mark

It's his turn to deal with you now.

Heidi

He's like, You're a bit hormonal today, aren't you? And I can't say anything. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I am. I I really am.

Mark

Thank you for introducing us to your setup. We've got lots to deal with in this particular episode, so let's crack on with it.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

Before we launch into this week's topic of the week, I probably should just do a disclaimer that it is highly likely to involve swearing. predominantly because the topic of the week is about swearing. So uh you know, you you can't it can't be a surprise to you if there's going to be some swear words. There may be some F's and some S's, a couple of B's and maybe even a C if Heidi's feeling particularly fruity. So just be aware of that. But as I said in my first episode, I can't imagine many Parents of neurodivergent children are that appalled by swearing because there's a lot of other shit we have to deal with on a daily basis. Um, but if you are, then this probably isn't the episode for you. Get the fuck out now. Um, yeah, just try one of the gentler ones. So this week's topic of the week is all about swearing. It is something that I touched on very briefly in the episode I did about social etiquette that I did with Joe Matthews back in episode nine. If you haven't heard that one yet, it's a really fun one, so give that one a listen. Um but when Heidi and I were discussing potential topics to talk about for this episode, she suggested the topic of swearing and it immediately got my brain whirring because I feel like it's a particularly nuanced one particularly when it comes to neurodivergent kids. So I think I should also start by saying that swearing is not just a neurodivergent phenomenon, obviously. Neurotypical kids and adults up and down the country are swearing like troopers. But there is a subtle difference, I think. And that's what I want to try and unpick here: is what the potential motivators for swearing is and how you potentially handle that if you feel uncomfortable with it and that side of things. I think that neurodivergent kids on the whole and there are exceptions that I will discuss later I think is it fair to say that they swear a bit more prolifically and a bit more directly in than their than their neurotypical counterparts?

Heidi

I think in my experience, and it is only my personal experience. When you've got a neurodivergent kid who has the lid off swearing, it's not going back on again. I think that would be safe. to say. And I have some like we'll get on to this, I probably think, but I think that swearing often comes as part of unmasking as well. So Okay. But yeah, I think I mean, I don't know. You said that to me before, and I was like, I don't know any neurotypical people, Mark.

Mark

No, I don't either. This is the thing.

Heidi

Yes. It is true, and I know lesser spotted neurotypical, which I don't see many of them in the wild.

Mark

So, who knows what their experience is, but yeah, and I mean, I'm sure, you know, I as a As an alleged neural when I stops laughing. When I was going up Like swearing, I didn't swear in front of my parents. Yeah. Like, and and I still, at the age of forty-eight. have never sworn in front of my parents. So there's definitely an element of being able to restrain myself and having that the capacity to rein it in in specific circumstances that I think might be more problematic for neurodivergent children.

Heidi

that they actually don't give a shit about raiding it in, 'cause why should they? Which is the other thing that we'll get on to.

Mark

But before we delve into that, I think it's useful just to have a look at swearing and Why it is considered offensive in the first place, right? Because, you know, swear words Do undoubtedly have a huge impact on people that you're talking to. It's positive and negative. Like they can make people laugh, they can make people cry. They have the power to motivate and demoralize. They can create tension in some situations. And my favorite is relieving tension through swearing. You know, when everyone's like really tense and you go Fucking hell, that was a bit much. And then everyone goes... "Phew. Okay, we could just let it all out". Um, but technically, on paper, they're just words. So the power of swearing is really imbued by how it's received. And that's a strange phenomenon. Who is it that decides what words are offensive and what words are?

Heidi

Yeah. So it's interesting because I've because I'm because I'm writing my second book currently, Tricky Second Album. I probably said that last time we met as well. I'm still freaking writing it. One of the chapters is about swearing. So, I've been doing quite a lot of research and reading and, you know, all that kind of like sociology stuff. I will say at this point that I'll tell you that. Oh, I have this research that says I won't tell you who wrote it, I can't remember. It's written down somewhere. When the book comes out, it'll be in that. Oh, that is that is fantastic. Buy the book if I ever finish a damn thing. Anyway, the interesting thing about swearing is that it's So the two things that are kind of like diff what defines whether something is a swear word or not is is it taboo? So it's usually tied to a taboo subject. Sex and bodily functions now are what are taboo, right?

Heidi

But historically, religion was taboo.

Heidi

So go back. You know, like 100 years and blaspheming was very much like that's where curses came from.

Mark

That's where, like, you know, right. So, damn, some people still don't say damn. That's all that religious swearing. You know, that was more taboo.

Heidi

But now, I think we're what we're in a time of where most most offensive swear words are related to sex or bodily functions or both.

Mark

You've got my brains whirring now just running through all the things. Yes, what do you think about the things that bodily, bodily, sexual, sexual, both bodily and sexual?

Heidi

All of those, right? There you go, there's your first C-word. But it's decided by society and what's to boo. So it's evolving all the time. Things that didn't used to be as offensive are more offensive. And there's also a thing about different environments and different social setups. So there are words that are much more offensive in the US than they are here and vice versa.

Mark

Yes, yes.

Heidi

And there are words that we use here that so like wanker, we would use here. someone in the US wouldn't know what a wanker was, ironically. You know, but you know, and there are other words that have like sexual overtones here, like Fanny here. Right?

Mark

Yes, it's just your backside and it's not rude.

Heidi

Right. So I've got an American stepmum, and one of the very first times I met her She said, I was wearing a short dress and she said to me, Are you going to wear that because I can see your fanny?

Mark

And you're checking yourself Frantically, going, Oh my god.

Heidi

So, you know, but yeah, what defines something as a swear is very much tied to societal taboo. Okay.

Mark

And so is that, you know, it it sounds like it's the intent is really important there, because the reason that you're saying it is

Heidi

to because it's taboo, then.

Mark

You're trying to inflate a situation or yes, by saying a word that is outside of socially accepted speech.

Heidi

Or you're exclaiming because you're having an emotion. And so there's two types of swearing, right? There's swearing that is swearing because something goes badly. And you and it's an expletive, so you drop something on your foot and you say, Oh, shit, without even thinking about it, or they're swearing because you're intending to add power to something. So you'll say, Yes, what a load of shit. Do you know what I mean? So, like, it's and they're two different types of swearing. And actually, what's really interesting is in conversations that I've had with people, people have said to me I don't mind if my child swears in a moment of exasperation, but I don't want them to swear at people. So they don't mind if their child says, oh, shit, if they drop something, but they don't want someone to say, you're a shithead. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Heidi

That's a distinction that Jo Matthews made a while ago.

Mark

And I've sort of like really latched onto that and gone, okay, how do I feel about this particular sentence that my that Jay has said. Yeah, you it's it's reading the intent behind it and letting shit slide.

Heidi

It's really interesting.

Mark

It is. And then and so that sort of brings me on to swear words coming from the mouths of children has that extra level of Almost shock sometimes. If you are offended by swearing, I think you are doubly offended by swearing from the children. And I think that is where it's quite difficult to explain that to neurodivergent children. And the context of it, as you say, is so important because there are times where swearing is okay. You know, like what you but you have to be absolutely sure of that, right? So there are certain situations where You know, like I swear on this podcast, if you've listened to it for more than four minutes, it's quite a sweary thing. And I am aware that sometimes I swear a bit too much on it. And I apologize if you are sort of a little bit if you don't like it. But my my take is this is my space, right? This is I'm inviting you into my brain and my you know, I invite you into my conversations. It's like a pub chat, right, without the without the alcohol. And because it's my space and I'm inviting you into it, then it's sort of up to me how I present that and if I say that I think people accept that and people understand that and to be honest I think that's probably why some people Listen to it. However, if I'm in a different context, if I'm in someone's house and I don't really know them that well, I know that I don't swear. Because it might be offensive, and it's their environment that I'm in. So I need to be able to temper that.

Heidi

Do you also though, when you're when you meet someone who you haven't met before, when you're spending time with someone who doesn't you don't know very well? When they drop their first F bomb, do you think, oh, thank God? Because I did. I'm like, oh, I can just watch it. I I you know, it's for me in that situation, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a leveller. It's a bit it's a social lube Do you know what I mean?

Mark

It's like it's just a little sign that people aren't uptight about things that I don't think are important.

Heidi

I think is but it's interesting you're saying about context because although You know, I joke about it and I say, you know, I'm a proper potty mouth, and I am. But obviously, when you're raising a child and when your child's grandparent on his dad's side is a very wonderfully but traditionally Methodist Yorkshire woman, you don't want your child swearing around her ever. So we had like conversations from when he was quite young. About, like, where you could say things.

Heidi

So, we had swearing.

Heidi

So, we had Nana swears, which were things you could say in front of his Nan, right? Oh, like PG swears. Right. I think he couldn't say fart, he could say Trump. He definitely couldn't use any religious swears. God, Jesus, Goddamn, damn it, any of that. Got nowhere to go, really.

Mark

If you if you drop something on your foot, you've just got to run outside.

Heidi

Sugar.

Mark

Sugar is not a swear as we all know.

Heidi

And Theo's Nan, I think, used to say something like, Oh, sugar sh sugar gum drops or something for big swears. Yeah, but um but so then we had swears for Isnan's house, right? Then we had swears for like polite company So maybe a dam would be all right, maybe a trump would be all right, or a fart would be all right, i. e. saying the word. Then we have swears for like My company. So, like my friends, it was all right if he said damn shit, piss, crap. And then in my house, he can say fucking cunt as much as he likes. Do you know what I mean? So, right, gloves are off. You know, you, you, you do, you, he's got this kind of like, I don't know, he has this kind of like

Mark

So is he always had that? From what age? Because I find I I would think if I introduce this concept to my kids, I don't think Depending on who they are, like I think Jay probably would now, and I can I'll talk about that a little bit more later. I don't think Otto would. He wouldn't really know what is appropriate and when, and so he'd be You know, yeah, I don't want to open that door.

Heidi

So I didn't like, don't get me wrong, I got F and Jeff around him when he was little, little. Do you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't Dropping left bombs left, right, and centre when he was five or six years old. But he probably heard the occasional one when I smashed a glass or whatever. But I do remember a conversation with him coming home from his nan's and saying, Nan says I can't say fart. and he would have been about five or six. And then we had a conversation when I said, Well, no, don't say fart in Nan's house, say Trump But you can say fart in this house. And then, of course, Theo was like, What else can I say in this house?

Heidi

Let's make a list.

Heidi

So But he, you know, and he's like, he's the one when we're out in public, he pulls me up on it. Mum, there's kids over there. So it's he who gets it, and he's And don't get me wrong, I can do polite stuff. I can do yeah, I've even done podcasts when I haven't sworn. Do you know what I mean? Like, I am capable and I And I guess also for him, from him being 14 to being 16 and a half, he was at home with me a lot of the time. He missed two years of education because he was so unwell. Right, okay.

Heidi

And we were in crisis.

Heidi

So it was like, gloves are off. I'm going to be able to, I'm going to have to be able to say what I need to say when I need to say it, and strap in your mum's a potty mouth. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I kind of that was a little bit different because I could kind of say what I wanted in a way, and he wasn't going to repeat it anywhere because God love him, he wasn't leaving the house.

Mark

So, yes, yes, yes, yes, just be glad, you know. But it's interesting that you've sort of implemented those those strategies, have like made it clear, 'cause that you know, my obviously my concern as a parent is that my kids will not know the right context and they will end up you know, offending someone and or being judged unfairly for something that they say that they don't understand is out of context. And it's a funny one for me because I am at that place now where if people judge my kids based on how they behave in public, if they're too fizzy, if they're too loud, I don't give a shit. You know, they're my kids and they're doing their thing. And I will, you know, I will make apologies for them if they are particularly disruptive, but I'm not going to stop them doing it unless it goes like, you know, they go. completely over the top. But but broadly, they've got a very long leash on that front. With swearing, for some reason, I feel a bit differently about it. And I yeah, and it's it's a me thing. I'm aware of that and I need to and I think probably it is how I was raised because there was no swearing in front of me, so it was always deemed to be an unacceptable thing. That might be why I swear so much now.

Heidi

Same. I was raised in a house where you didn't swear. My swearing self is my unmasked self. It's my, yeah, it's the place where I'm not thinking about too much what I'm saying and I'm letting that stream of consciousness happen and I'm not kind of like tone policing myself. So people get the purest version of me when I'm allowed to swear.

Mark

So people will know if you're swearing that you're unmasked, then you're relaxed and you're comfortable.

Heidi

Yeah, or I don't give a shit what they think.

Mark

Either or. If I think about it, I don't think that my main concern is for people getting offended by my children's swearing. I think it's because I don't want them to be judged unfairly.

Heidi

Yes.

Mark

Because they but because that kind of person Will then just write your child off as a sweary hooligan, right? So I had this situation recently where I had to talk to Otto about this, right? Of all of my children. the one that you would least expect to swear is Otto. And I was upstairs working and I heard him in the garden on the trampoline. And he just started swearing like a docker. It was it was just like the F-bomb. Repeatedly, he was going, I'm fucking drunk. He was doing some kind of role play. So he's ramping up. He's ten now And he, but he was shouting at the top of his voice. Now, if I can hear it from my office, our back garden backs onto loads of other back gardens. They're all kind of adjoined. Everyone else can hear it. So I'm just like, oh, now I've got, I'm just going to have to nip this in the bud. So I went downstairs. Now I did get cross with him. Because, you know, he wasn't swearing at people.

Heidi

I think that's the thing, right?

Mark

He was just swearing because it was creating a response. But I just said I could hear you swearing from upstairs and his face just fell. He was mortified. Mortified. And I didn't get cross with him Because I wasn't because there's there's there's two sort of sides to that, isn't there? Like if you get angry and you prohibit it, it becomes more appealing And it becomes more to be. So you don't want him leaning into that. So I just went, look, let's just go inside and talk about it. And he went inside like he was being marched to the gallows.

Heidi

Poor little fucker

Mark

Bless him. But I wasn't, I didn't shout. I wasn't crossed, but I didn't want to have the conversation in here, everyone else. I I explained why I didn't want him swearing in the back garden. And that was because like I just said, I don't want people listening to that and and judging him and not seeing him for who he is. Like the smart, energetic funny, sporty child, just this sweary little monster. And like I said, you know, so you you need to understand when it's okay to swear and when it's not. And so if you're out in public I don't want people judging you for that, but there are probably other situations. But it's confusing because even as an adult, I don't really know. So, best to not really do it until you're a bit older and you kind of understand when it's okay and when it's not. And he was all right. And then we were reading a book, and I went, Do you know what, though, Otto? You can read a chapter of this book, and I will let you insert one swear word whenever you want and whatever you want, and it's going to be okay.

Heidi

Nice.

Mark

And he leaned into it. It was like you he got a bit nervous, not b because he didn't know where when to do it. But then he really leaned into it and it was hilarious. It was really funny.

Heidi

So the reason that I was kind of like that I started thinking about swearing was because when my first book came out I mentioned I wrote a book. When I got negative comments or negative reviews, right, ninety nine point nine percent of them were people didn't like that it was sweary Right?

Mark

Yeah, and that's so frustrating, isn't it? It's like you're not paying attention to the bit that matters.

Heidi

This is a book about a young person who was in so much crisis that we nearly lost him. And the thing that bothers you is that I said the F word. Right, yeah, and like, come on. Like, reviews that I got a review said good writers should be able to express themselves without the use of foul language. And then someone else said they were hit by severe swearing on almost every page. And then someone else said...

Mark

Hit by it? Accosted? I was accosted by it?

Heidi

Nobody's impressed by swearing.

Heidi

It doesn't make you cool at forty seven Right, people were really not happy about it. So I went and had a look, right? My book, that book, was 20,000 words. There were 18 fucks, 15 shits, one cunt. Right? So less than thirty four swear words in twenty thousand words. Like not one seven percent of the word count, like definitely not, absolutely, definitely not every fucking page. But What I found out when I was doing this research is that people who do not like swearing, it's not just a preference, right? So when you swear, it activates the amygdala in people's brains, which is the internal fire alarm for our systems. And for whatever reason that people have an emotional like they feel like they're under threat when someone uses a swear word, that is completely like not something you choose, right? So it could be down to the way you were raised, it could be down to your belief system, it could be any number of things. But people who don't like swearing, it's not just a preference, it's a trauma trigger or it's a it's a feeling threatened trigger or it's a feeling trigger. So although we make a joke about it, say, all these people, you know, what we have to understand is that some people do feel genuine discomfort, fear, as you said, they're triggered.

Mark

They are literally triggered by it, right? Just in in in the way that our neurodivergent kids are triggered by I had never considered before, right?

Heidi

I just thought these uptight motherfuckers, what the hell is the matter with them? Do you know what I mean? Like, and then when I read that, I was like, oh, okay. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna, you know, but it gave me a different level of understanding. And I've spoken to people whose kids, whose neurodivergent kids and some neurodivergent adults, but more neurodivergent kids, who can Not stand swearing

Heidi

Yes.

Mark

Yeah. Well, that's what I was going to say is that it's not all neurodivergent kids are cool with that. In my own family, right? India is very much of the

Heidi

not swearing.

Mark

Like it's because it's a rule, right?

Heidi

I think.

Mark

And I don't think it's one that we've ever explicitly said there will be no swearing.

Heidi

Someone will have said no.

Mark

Yeah, maybe, or I might have no, I tell you, I genuinely can't can't think of a time that I will have said that. But um so then this is a rule that she feels the need to police. So if I I very pointedly don't swear in front of India. Tam has on occasion and every single time India pulls her up on it, don't swear. We had a wonderful moment. last year when me and Tam were talking um about uh Eliza Fricker's book. uh which uh can't not won't which is brilliant we all I was like I've just read uh this book by Eliza Fricker Can't Not Woe and I really like Eliza Fricker and I I wanna Get onto NeuroShamble. So I've emailed Eliza Fricker, and India was just like, Can you stop swearing? And I was like, What on earth are you talking about? I was like, No, Fricker. I said, Fricker. And India thought that I was obviously saying the f-bob, so I had to clarify it for her.

Heidi

Oh, bless her.

Mark

Bless her.

Heidi

But it can be really like distressing for people.

Mark

Yeah, she snapped it too.

Heidi

It was just like too much. And I think we have to acknowledge that if we're okay with those of us at this end of the scale being sweary potty mouths. We have to be okay with people at the other end of the scale not liking it at all.

Mark

So we kind of understand why swearing is offensive and why people get offended by swearing. But one thing that I really wanted to look at because I think it relates specifically to neurodivergent kids, is why do our kids swear? What are the reasons for them swearing? Because it's not typically to show off as you might get for neurotypical kids among their mates. It's much more purposeful, I think. One of the factors, I think, is that it's not really seen as wrong or offensive to a lot of neurodivergent kids, particularly if they're older, because

Heidi

They don't find it offensive, so why should other people?

Heidi

I mean, I don't know how Theo, how that sort of applied to Theo when he was I don't think he is offended by swearing. I think he would be offended if someone swore at him, if someone like uh used abusive language towards him, and there'd be particular things that would be particularly offensive to him for sure. But I don't think that he is bothered. I mean, God, he'd be in big trouble if he was. Do you know what I mean? Like as in if he lived with me and swearing bothered him. Do you know what I mean? Like Yes. He cares more if people are unkind or if something's not fair or I mean, they're the things that bother him.

Mark

Yeah, there's a type of swear though, you know, because if he's called a wanker, then that's that's offensive. Whereas if you know someone swore a rubber.

Heidi

As he was growing up, the things that hurt him, when people called him particular names

Mark

It would hurt him when people called him weird. Yeah. So that's not a swear word, right? No, no, no.

Heidi

But as a neurodivergent kid, being called weird, I think, is really tricky, like really difficult to hear. really difficult to see yourself in that way and to be okay with other people seeing you that way. Okay, that's interesting.

Mark

So do you think he would ever call anyone else weird?

Heidi

Well, now, like we've had conversations about it, we think weird is a great thing. Okay, yeah, you've got to own it, right? People say, oh.

Mark

They're a bit weird and not in a good way. Jimmy. No, because Otto said this the other day. Like, our family's really weird. Um, and I was like, But that's a good thing, right? And he's like, Yeah, we're not like quiet and do reading, is what he said. It's like, I mean, we do do reading, but I get what you're saying. Are you like, you know, we are disrupting?

Heidi

We've reclaimed weird.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Do you know what I mean? Like and also, I think the thing is with with Theo, like we had a period when he and still sometimes now, he experiences situational mutism, right? So when he's very overwhelmed, he can't speak. Or when we go like when we go to the doctors, I have to start him off and then he can tell them what's going on. I'm like, let him just communicate as he needs to communicate. I mean, let's not police our neurodivergent kids in the way that they communicate and how they express themselves. I'm just happy, inverted commas, that he can communicate. And I don't necessarily mean that through spoken word, but that's you know, communication is valid, however, our neurodivergent kids do it. And so I would far rather that he can express himself freely. than feel like that he's got like shackles on and he can't speak, you know. But he he isn't offended by swearing. He's offended by racism and homophobia and transphobia and Trump. And all of those are completely valid, yes. Yeah, the stuff that matters, you know. But he has got a friend who does not like swearing. And he's very good. He just doesn't swear around them. He can rein it in.

Mark

And this is the thing, like as I was sort of saying, wi with my kids, my concern is that they wouldn't be able to rein it in and then end up like breaking in friendship. I'm starting to realize as we go through this episode that I have a problem. Like a lot of this is projection. Like, you know, my kids don't Don't swear a great point. So, India, as I yeah, it's true. India, as we know, doesn't swear. Um, to the point that when I had the conversation with Otto about his trampoline swears. I I talked to her about it. I said, Does he swear very often? and she burst into tears. And she was like went really, really dysregulated and really frustrated. And started crying. And I was like, what's wrong? And she was like, she was like, because I know that you're going to ask Otto the same question, and he's going to say that I do, but I don't, but I really don't. And so she got really worked up because it was. You know, she really didn't, absolutely didn't want to be seen as a swearer. So obviously, I asked Otto because I needed to know. He's like, no, no, she's never sworn. So just the fear. Of Otto lying about her swearing and me believing her was so sort of ingrained in her. And again, it's this really kind of defined version of what is right and wrong. and wanting to be on the side of right for that particular thing. Um yeah, the this this concept of adhering to the rules was really important to her, to the point that she was really worked up at the prospect of being lied about.

Heidi

You don't have a PDA in your house, do you?

Mark

Oh, I've got two of them.

Heidi

Right.

Mark

India India is PDA.

Heidi

Right.

Mark

And Jay is PDA.

Heidi

Can be incredible swear boxes. Well, that is, yeah.

Mark

Yeah. This is this. Okay, so India is an interesting one here then, because India is definitely PDA. Right. Uh but isn't a swearer.

Heidi

Right.

Mark

Jay is the swearer. So he's he's the PDA kid who swears. And um, sort of looking back at why our kids swear, PDA in particular, I think the swearing is equalizing behaviour.

Heidi

I agree.

Mark

If Neuroshambles listeners haven't kind of heard the concept of equalizing behaviour, it's a really interesting one and it I think it particularly pertains to PDA. Maybe not exclusively to PDA.

Heidi

We should say PDA is pathological demand avoidance for people who don't know what it is.

Mark

Oh, yeah. Thank you. For that, yes, pathological demand avoidance or a persistent drive for autonomy, pervasive desire for autonomy, just basically uh being triggered by demands. Um and it triggers their nervous system and it results in very often explosive behavior or implosive behavior in some circumstances. And with Jay in particular, it's explosive. And if they feel like they're out of control or they've lost control, they will need to do something to redress the balance, to put them back in control. And that is very often, or can be, swearing. Not always a J.

Heidi

I think because Theo is a PDAer. So also I think the thing is with PDAers is like, you know, like you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, you've met one PDA, you Fricking love PDA kids. They are like they're just so beautifully unfiltered and gloriously full of rage and joy. And like, I don't want our kids to be full of rage. But also I just love that kind of like, fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. Like, that is the theme tune of PDA, is that?

Heidi

Yes, yes.

Heidi

But I also, like, I think it's really important to recognize in any demand avoid avoidant person, whether they have the PDA like traits or not, any demand avoidant situation where it's just an extension of an anxiety. I hear people saying, you know, oh, they're trying to regain control. And whilst that is true, it's also not intentional and it's not a logical process.

Heidi

So it's a response to a stimulus, right?

Heidi

It's not kind of, what's the word? It's not manipulative. It's not.

Mark

It's instinctive, yeah. It's not premeditated.

Heidi

It's just like in the same way that many PDA young people have a massive problem with authority. And, like, really find it difficult that whole, but why? And, like, well, because you know, they're older than you, or because they're the boss, or because. That's what the government say. You know, none of that makes sense because hierarchy is bullshit. You know what I mean?

Mark

Yeah, so in terms of equalizing behaviors, because there are, you know, equalizing behavior for a PDA could be physical, could be violent, could be, you know, like trashing a room or, you know, tipping the game board over or swearing. Of all of those I feel like swearing is the most acceptable. It's the easiest one to be able to go, okay, I get you're communicating something to me at this point, and I get what that is. And you know, uh uh this I understand what this behavior is and what this language is and I'm not going to get offended by it because I understand it, right?

Heidi

And for some and yeah, exactly. And also like that letting off steam, that like that regulating activity, you know, like We know from research that swearing is a regulating activity. Peop that old thing about putting your hand in cold water, people put their hand in cold water and swear while they're doing it, they can keep their hand in cold water for longer. Is that actually me is that true? It's actually proper research. Oh, wow, okay. Because it does something in your brain that reduces your pain reception. So it's a means of coping with pain, whether that's physical or emotional pain. So I've got friends who've got PDA kids and like their PDA kids can be can say some horrific things.

Mark

Yes. Yeah.

Heidi

That's preferable to them not being able to have an outlet for that. or preferable to other ways that they might attempt to be regaining control. And at the end of the day, it's words. You know, and like as a parent, it can be hard to be on the receiving end of that, particularly if you are actually the person receiving. If it's abusive language, you know, I think that can be really tricky as a parent if you've got a child who's whose profile includes them telling you that they hate you and you're a fucking cunt and you know, that's really tricky. And if we are going to be neurodivergent affirming, we have to be coming to that with generous assumptions and being trauma informed and understanding that, that is a means of regulating. So, yeah.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, it is worth just leaning into that point about how hard it is when they are

Heidi

swearing at you abusive to you.

Mark

And th this is something that I'm definitely going to cover in another episode about, you know, aggression towards parents because it It's a an unspoken thing, I think, a lot of the time.

Heidi

And I think it's um yeah, it's not to lay that down at all because if you're in a house with a child or a young person who is abusive, regardless of why that is happening. It's an incredibly difficult place to be. It's a very lonely place to be.

Mark

There's loads of taboo around it.

Heidi

And it can be a very dangerous place to be.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

And if it's only inverted commas words. I think there's conversations to have around that, right? Like it's about us as parents and how we manage that for ourselves as much as for our young people. But yeah, it's incredibly tricky, incredibly difficult. And I don't want to play that down.

Mark

So being sworn at by kids is always hard. And again, it's the context. Is it just the swear words? But there was once where Jay came th this is where he was in school last year. He's just starting his new school. And he'd been in burnout, and we were sort of easing him in. Now, his new school is a specialist autistic setting. They are wonderful. We fought really, really hard to get him in there. It's incredibly high demand, and it is perfect for him. So we got him in, it was like great. And he started sort of tentatively going into school for sort of half days and stuff. And then he liked rung the doorbell when he came back. He was coming back for that half day. And I opened the door and before I could say anything, he went, Fuck you for sending me to this fucking shithole. And that was like the sweariest thing he'd ever said. Like, he'd never sworn at me. He'd never said fuck you before and that was quite hard to hear because well for many reasons firstly there's that shock of like him saying fuck you Secondly, you know, this fucking shithole is like, this is the best possible place for you, other than not school.

Heidi

I get that, right?

Mark

But at the moment and You know, we fought so hard. So it was that sort of rejection of everything we'd fought for. And I, you know, I was on a work call. So that was like just dealing with that. I was like, oh, okay. And that that was really hard. And also just sort of thinking about I would never have said that to my. Like, I can't imagine what would have happened if I'd have said something like that to my dad. Look, I wouldn't be here recording this video.

Heidi

I remember once saying fuck off under my breath to my dad.

Mark

Did you hear it?

Heidi

Yeah, and I got a beating.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, so different times, right? But we're not those people. I'm not saying my dad would have beat me, by the way, but I would have been in trouble. But we understand more where it comes from. So obviously, that was hurtful for me, but also for me, that was communication. He was telling me something important. He was telling me, to be honest, that he wasn't ready yet. He wasn't ready to be going back in yet, and he was finding it difficult. And so, obviously, I didn't react. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't angry. I wasn't, I didn't kick off. I didn't tell him that that made me feel bad or anything like that. I just said, I can tell you've had a really tough day. Why don't you go upstairs and chill out and we can talk about it in a little bit? And that's hard. That's hard. I wouldn't let anyone else in the world speak to me that like that. But we as parents of neurodivergent kids, we have to we have to understand it and we have to You have to swallow it down and let him express it.

Heidi

And even as they get older, right? So, like now, my relationship with Theo. as morphing into a grown-up relationship. We're both even now, there are things that he would say to me or I would say to him that probably neither of us would say to anyone else. and like in the heat of the moment thing. But there are but equally, there are things that he would say to me, and if it was anyone else, I would be But I'm like, mm-hmm. Even now, I'm like, ooh, I'll be just and I'll have to say something like, I'm going to go upstairs for a bit. I'm going to give us both a bit of time to calm down. And then we'll usually do making up by WhatsApp. Right?

Heidi

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heidi

You know, but one of the things that has come with him as he's recovered is, He now does express himself with anger where he didn't for a long time. And I one of the things I've talked about before is that when he was Pauly, he was in like total shutdown. I remember he got into an altercation at a group that he went to and nearly got in a fight. It didn't happen, but he nearly got in a fight and there was language. And the leader of the group messaged me and was like, I don't know what's happened tonight, but there's been an altercation with an older member and he has told them to F off and blah blah blah. And it's so unlike him. I was fucking delighted because I was like, yes, we are back in regular nervous

Mark

He's getting his fight back.

Heidi

When he's angry, he's going to let people know that he's angry. Thank fuck. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was relieved. So now, like, when we have disappearance, I'm just like. Thank God that he can be like have that emotional scale. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Whereas he couldn't because he was so shut down. Yeah. So, like, I think the thing with that is not is don't look at how they're communicating.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

But look at or try to see what they're communicating. Which it You know, like, and I have this with with Jay, if he's getting really angry, d what do we need to leave? Are you hungry? Is it too noisy? What what is going on here that is causing this? This all behavior is communication, right?

Heidi

No, Kate Jones, who I work with, who's a psychotherapist, and I agree with her on this, she says it's not a case of all communication, all behavior is communication, it's a case of all behavior is information.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

Sometimes it's not a clear it's not a clear I'm telling you this, it's I'm showing you that I'm dysregulated.

Heidi

It's information rather than communication.

Heidi

I find that so helpful because I think sometimes we tie ourselves up in knots trying to work out what our kids are trying to tell us. They're not always trying to tell us something. They're just letting off steam or finding a way to regulate or fighting against their nervous system to get back on kilter. So, but yeah, I think it's really helpful to come in it with that lens of there's some information in this moment, right? There's something to be learned here. There's Something I don't know that I'm missing that I need to unpick in this moment.

Mark

Yeah. But again, as the parent, we're the ones having to deal with it, right? We're having to shoulder that dysregulation and we are the punch bag, um, you know, sometimes literally, but in this context, you know, we're the verbal punching bag and we're, you know, sworn at and You know, they say me.

Heidi

And also, I think if you're a person, depending on what your personal history is, for some people Verbal abuse can be more hurtful than physical abuse, particularly if you've got a history of having been verbally abused. So to hear it from your own children can be doubly difficult, right?

Heidi

Yeah, yeah.

Heidi

So, yeah. You just made me think of that.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, I feel to be honest, that is like that with me, but that's because I need validation and I'm a delicate little flower.

Heidi

I'm a delicate flower very often.

Mark

No, I yeah, and um You know, if I was neurodivergent, I might look into RSD, but I'm not, so I won't. I'll send you a book.

Heidi

Thanks. Stick it on me to read when I finally admit that I'm neurodivergent.

Mark

I did a test, I did a test online, and it was like, nah, you're fine. I think another of the reasons that our kids might swear more prevalently is this

Heidi

diminished capacity for impulse control, particularly among ADHDers, I think.

Mark

Um where they

Heidi

Can't really rein it in very easily.

Mark

Like, we've all stubbed our toe, right? And started, I swear, gone, ah, fudge. you know, or whatever it is that you'll go to.

Heidi

Fiddlesticks is my parents go to.

Mark

There's all kinds of them, right? Yeah, ridiculous. Um but everyone's got their go-to sort of uh safety valve. Right? They're off ramp from the swear when you start a swear. A lot of neurodivergent kids, particularly ADHDs, don't have that. But we're picking when they're kids, because I think it's something that you know this that it evolves when you get older. So, yeah, frustration will lead to sweat.

Heidi

That expression of whatever it is in the moment and just the no filter. And because you're responding to a moment and you haven't got time to process it and put the filter on. It's exhausting to put the filter on.

Mark

It's really complicated. If you think about, like, you know, in terms of the processing, which I'd not really thought about until you just said it, but there's a lot of process going on there. Because you're dealing with physical pain, so initially, then you've got the impulse of how you react to physical pain. And as you said previously, Putting your hand in cold water and swearing means that you're likely to endure the pain for longer. So it's actually a healing, it's a healing swear. And then you've got to work out the context of where you are at the time. and whether it's acceptable to say that. Is there anyone else else around? Am I in a nunnery?

Heidi

All of them.

Mark

Sift through your lexicon of safety valves and go, okay, I'm going to use fiddle, right?

Heidi

And also, there was something about in that research about the cold water, it has to be a swear word. It can't be an alternate word.

Heidi

It can't be fiddlesticks.

Heidi

It's got to be thought. Why is it? Like, it's really interesting because it basically turns on different parts of your brain. And the part of your brain that's turned on by those taboo words is not the same part of your brain that's turned on by non taboo words.

Mark

So I'm going to now look at swears from my children as being almost self-regulatory behaviour. Yeah.

Heidi

In the same way that we wouldn't ask our kids not to stim, I would argue we should potentially not ask our kids not to swear.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Okay. But that's a challenge, right? Because like, you know, and even stimming, like you can stim subtly and you can stim wildly, you know, like and I think it's about what you were saying earlier on about I worry about how people will judge my children if they're doing these things in public and how that will be perceived. And I don't want them to be seen that way. It's about us wanting to protect our kids and keep them safe, right? Because we know that other people who see kids running riot in restaurants or swearing or hitting themselves or flapping you know, people make judgments and you know, we're fortunate that we're white and we're articulate and we probably our children probably are not at risk of being physically hurt by other people because that happens. But you know, black and brown children don't have that advantage, particularly in the States. You know, autistic kids have been shot by police. So it's natural to want to protect our kids from that danger. It is very natural. And like although I'm saying just let them swear, I do understand that it's monuan.

Mark

than that you know it's finding that balance isn't it of going it's okay in certain situations and how do you make that how do you make them aware of w when when that is and

Heidi

Where do you decide what you are okay with other people thinking of your children and what puts your children at risk if other people think that of them? And it's different for everybody and it's different in every circumstance. So on some occasions, it doesn't matter if strangers in the park think your kids weird for climbing up the slide and walking down the steps. You know, but on other occasions when there were lots of children on those steps trying to get down the slide, there's a chance they're going to get slap in the face. So it just, you know, it just depends, right? It's just And the it depends is not something that those of us who are neurodivergent find very easy.

Mark

That's it. And that's what I feel duty bound to try and equip them for and why I think because, you know, we've just We've spent a lot of time talking about the nuances of swearing, and we've only just scratched the surface of when it's okay to do it, and all of these different nuances of it we've talked about. How can you communicate that to a neurodivergent child who isn't going to pick up on some of the things that I pick up on? But then also, that's where you think, well, is that just a problem with me? Like, I, you know, if I see someone tense up, I'm like, oh, that's awful. He's mortified. If my kids don't pick up on someone tensing up, it doesn't matter, does it? That's the them problem. Probably not in that moment, it doesn't. No. I mean, that's a problem with the person tensing up and, you know, for being appalled by swearing. Everyone should just fucking get over it. I think, particularly with PDAers, if you give them sort of some environment where that's okay and say this is your safe space to do that with.

Heidi

So you were saying you did that with Theo, right?

Mark

you can do that here, then I think they feel as long as it's not, you know, in response to overwhelm. You know, that's enough for them to be able to kind of express themselves and be off the leash a little bit. And I did this with Jay once, and it was really fun because I explained to Jay that I don't want him swearing.

Heidi

Not because of my objection to it, but because I don't want him swearing in front of the other two. Because they're younger.

Mark

And that worked with Jay because he then saw himself as more grown up. He's like, oh, okay, I get it. But I We had a gaming night the other night where he came round to my flat and we had a sleepover and a gaming night. And I was like, okay, here's the deal, right? You can swear as much as you want all night. It's my space, and we're gaming, so you're gonna, you know, you're gonna get annoyed at stuff. You can swear as much as you want all night. And he loved it.

Heidi

God, you're such a good dad. That's brilliant.

Mark

I love that. It was really fun. And I could, and he had me doing it as well, which is quite nice.

Heidi

He didn't go over the top, to be honest.

Mark

It wasn't over the top, but it was this little space where he could really enjoy it. And then the other day he was like, God, can we have another. Can we have another gaming night at yours? I think he just wants to let off some steam again.

Heidi

You know what's interesting. You were saying before about how do you do that? And I was thinking about the setup that we had with Theo's grandmother. So. The girl went to his grandmother's every night overnight on a Thursday from being about nine months old. And then every other weekend he would see her on a Sunday. So he got lots of practice of like when it was okay to swear and when it wasn't okay to swear. So maybe that's why that worked for us. Because he knew on a Thursday the swear button was off, and every other weekend the swear button was off. Do you know what I mean? And like, even now, he doesn't swear around his dad. His dad would freak out if he's and I think that's hilarious because I met his dad when I worked in theatre and live comedy, and I know his dad swears like a naive Dad doesn't swear in front of Theo, and Theo would it would not be okay for Theo to swear in front of his dad. And I think, God, that's so weird. Your dynamic must be so different with our child. Because me and him swear like crazy. Like I say swear like crazy. It probably isn't that much because it's because it's not like we're not doing it to impress anyone or show off or nothing to prove. We just don't filter.

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a question about whether we should be policing swearing, which is the sort of umbrella for all of this discussion, right? Is do we try and rein it in? You know, because one option is no, don't police it. Let them say what they want, when they want, how they want, because it's important information about how they're feeling. and you know that that you're not you're not asking them to filter anything or sort of tamp down their expression to suit your sensitivities. However, that could go very wrong in the future, you know, because you as a swearer I also have been around people who swear too much. Yeah. And it is a turn off. Yeah. Right? It is a bit like a like you don't.

Heidi

You don't need four F words in seven words.

Mark

Like, you don't so it is. And how do I react to that? It makes me think probably less about the public.

Heidi

Even for me, when you're in public and there are Larry men, Effin and Jeff In an environment where there's kids, it pisses me. I'm like, come on Jo'meen there's like small children around and you're giving it all that

Heidi

No. Yeah.

Heidi

Be like there's something there about being respectful, do you know what I mean? Of the people that are around you and understanding that not everyone wants to hear that.

Mark

And other people don't want their kids to hear that, right? Absolutely. And but so if you're a neurodivergent, are you expected to live by those same standards? Are you are you expected to adhere to those same rules, given that you um You use the word respectful there. And as we've discussed previously, respectful doesn't really mean anything. If you're neurodivergent, you don't understand how other people are perceiving what respect is. Can you hold them to the same standards as the sweary builders in McDonald's?

Heidi

I oh God, I yeah, that's a tricky one. Because who's to say that those sweary builders weren't neurodivergent?

Heidi

But exactly, it's a fucking minefield.

Heidi

Here's the thing, right? All things being equal, which they're not matter. But all things are not equal, so it does matter.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

And there's something about, I mean, you're definitely asking the wrong person. I've got a social communication disorder. So what the fuck do I know? Yes.

Heidi

Okay.

Heidi

What I would say is as someone who didn't know they were neurodivergent until into their forties And as someone who learned a lot of those social norms, and I did learn them, like, because I had to, because that's a survival technique, right? What I would say is that for lots of neurodivergent people, it is useful for us for our own safety to learn those things. So it's about are we learning those things for self protection? Or are we learning those things to protect the feelings of other people who need to be more accommodating? important too. Yeah, absolutely. Because we don't want to be raising kids who mask all the time. And we want to be able to raise kids who can keep themselves safe. And Masking is not just a neurodivergent phenomenon. Like all of us do that in different situations to keep ourselves safe, right? And depending on our level of privilege, that also plays into that too, right? So I think I would do again what I've done with Theo. Like 'cause I didn't know that I was neurodivergent. I just knew that his nan didn't like swearing anymore.

Mark

Yes, so is having bands of swearing, like dist different areas that he could and and different different flaring dictionaries.

Heidi

Was because it was important. It was important for him and his relationship with his grandmother that he wasn't a potty mouth around her.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And it was important for him to feel like he could be a potty mouth elsewhere. So that's why I think we had that set up. If it isn't important for your child or young person then maybe you don't need to worry so much.

Mark

I think there needs to be an honourable mention, if we're having an episode on swearing, on the classic PDA salute. which is the middle finger. If you're not familiar with it. If you ever see a family photograph with everyone smiling politely and then one of the children is either surreptitiously got the middle finger and scratching the cheek Right, that's that's a good one. Or is it even more brazenly just holding up the middle finger to the camera? Yeah, that is my favourite thing. I think that's part of the diagnostic criteria for PDA. Because it's a yeah, it seems to be a very much a fuck you attitude to you and your photo. And there's something funny about the hand gesture, isn't there? I think.

Heidi

Are people offended? Again, contact

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, if you're going to do it to, you know, like a bus full of old people as they're going to bingo, then it's It's not ideal, is it? It's going to be taken badly.

Heidi

But if you're on the like on the back seat of the bus going to school, doing it to cars behind would get us in trouble a lot.

Heidi

Yeah, that's a phone call.

Heidi

Someone followed school bus to school this morning and you were on the back seat flicking the V or flicking the bird. Fingers. So again, context matters.

Mark

Context. And this is why it's such a minefield when it comes to neurodivergent kids, because context relies on you understanding how other people perceive what's going on. And That's not always naturally picked up by neurodivergent kids. Certainly not mine.

Heidi

And I don't think that's it. Yes, that's why it's such a difficult thing.

Mark

So if you can create that safe space, right, go, you know what, middle finger's fine in this household. Just don't do it outside of the house and maybe just try and rein it in.

Heidi

Do you think there's something though about like, I know we don't do this, but sometimes I think this would be so much better if instead of trying to guess and work out the context and the context and the dynamic Like, so this is what I do because I'm a grown up and I'm allowed to do this. I say to people when I'm about to give training, I say, just that, you know, I do swear. I won't swear a lot, but you might hear an F-bomb from me. And if that offends you, then I'm sorry in advance, but fuck you. For example. And then that breaks the ice and then we get on with the training, right? Wouldn't it be lovely if we could just say to people, can I just check, how do you feel about the word fuck?

Mark

Just give them a list. Can you tick the words that you find okay?

Heidi

Yeah. You wouldn't want to say to strangers, How do you feel about fucking? 'Cause that would like, wouldn't it be nice to just be able to say to people, please, like those things that you get in hotel doors when you order your breakfast. Please take which of these words you would like me not to say.

Mark

Please take which of these words you would allow to say.

Heidi

And then you could just get on with just communicating. Yeah.

Mark

As you haven't really prohibited swearing in your household, you've not had to navigate the crafty workaround. That my kids have. Right, right. So they know that they're not supposed to use offensive words. And again, it's never been, it's funny. I think we're kind of lucky in that sense that I don't. It's not been prevalent enough for me to feel like I have to police it other than kind of going, Mm l let's not say that. That's it really. I don't I mean, it's not it's not a major thing. And it's mainly because it's a mean thing rather than a sweary thing. But Jay started getting quite creative because he's so literal with stuff as well. Um the other day we were playing Mario Kart And India was losing and moaning about something. And just Jay from the he went, India, stop being such a whiny little bish Right. I was like, what? Hang on. I paused the game. I was like, what did you just say? And he went, I said, bish. I didn't say anything wrong. I was like, Where do you go as a parent? Where do you go from? That's like, okay, so technically, you didn't say a wrong thing, but you know. We know what you meant. And also. Like, it's a mean thing, right? Regardless of what you could say, whiny little egg. Do you know what I mean? And that would still be kind of a mean thing to say to your sister, who's obviously started to get a bit dysregulated because she's losing. It was it was that he found that little workaround and then his literal brain just went, Well, I didn't say the word, I didn't say a rude word.

Heidi

It's like just drop a letter.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. So that was a tricky one to navigate. And the other one I had my one of my favorite ones was when Otto was four, and I still find this hilarious. We were in the car and we'd been for like a drive, all of us, and we just came back home and we were talking about the weather and going, It's going to rain tomorrow. And Otto in the background. I just heard him go, oh, fucking rain. Right, he's four. Right. And I was like, I stopped and I turned around and went, What did you say? And he went, Fucking rain. And I was like, Hang on. I went Can you spell that for me? And he went, because he was very good at spelling at that age. It was silly as now. He went, F-U-C-K-U-N. You went, I made it up, Daddy. I mean, there's no fuckun way you made that up.

Heidi

I love that.

Mark

But then it's like, okay, okay. I'll fine. Just don't use it again because it sounds an awful lot like a really bad word, okay?

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

Just the little workarounds then.

Heidi

It's a bloody minefield though, isn't it? It's like, where do you I don't even maybe I'm just really lucky. Maybe I've just dropped really lucky by accident.

Mark

No, I just think you set the bar really low. But by not being offended You remove that source of having to feel like you're policing it. And early on, fortunately, but you know, but you fell upon something that worked in terms of a set of rules that Theo could get on board with and that worked in your context.

Heidi

You know, interesting, right? Our rules were stricter than the don't ever swear rules. We had like the categories, right? And he won't come home and say to me, Mum, this word, what category does that go in? And we would have a conversation about it. So probably Can I say twat at Nan's?

Mark

Do you think Nan would like it if I said todger?

Heidi

I don't think Nan would like it if you said todger, Theo. Don't say that.

Mark

If in doubt. What about vagina?

Heidi

I no, I don't think she'd like that either. I think you should say front bum.

Heidi

Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Or just don't even reference it.

Heidi

What should I call it when?

Mark

But it is legitimate. It's it's a legitimate query from someone who wants to know He want he it's a legitimate query from someone who's trying to navigate this world where people are offended seemingly for no reason because he's not being told the rules.

Heidi

I was doing social skills training without realizing that's what I was doing. But that's it, isn't it? Probably a lot of that is probably down to my anxiety around social situations. So in the same way that you have like anxiety, for a better word, around your children swearing. I have anxiety around him using swears in the wrong context. So, I set up a system which was rule-based. You do do this then, you don't do this then. Same thing Like it wasn't like do what you like, whenever you like. You know what I mean?

Mark

So, I think a blanket ban is never gonna work, especially if you've got PDA kids.

Heidi

There's just there's no way.

Mark

So I think if you can create a scaffold around which certain swears are fine.

Heidi

So are you going to introduce the swearing trampoline? That's my question.

Mark

No, I'm gonna have a swearing room. I love it.

Heidi

Like a panic room. Quick, guys.

Mark

You know, someone's really annoying. So quick, guys. Donald Trump's on TV again. To the swearing room.

Heidi

I love it. Like a like a you know those things where you go and you smash stuff up? What are they called?

Mark

Yeah, rage rooms. Rage rooms.

Heidi

Like there you go.

Mark

Like a swear room. I love it. Just like set up a little table.

Heidi

With a platform and like chalk. Great. Yeah, really just like draw penises.

Mark

Just let it all out, kids. Um, yeah, we'll navigate it.

Heidi

Like I have a friend who's uh ex-partner now, got sacked for drawing a cock and balls on a board at work.

Mark

And he's ADHD. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's They were looking for a reason.

Heidi

They were. You know, like when we're saying about, you know, it sometimes it does really matter. It does matter. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Didn't even say it, just drew a cock and ball from a whiteboard in a meeting room.

Mark

So, I mean, so the thing around swearing, which It's difficult. It's obviously really difficult because people are dealing with it in so many different ways, and people are offended by swears in so many different ways. And also, people's kids are leaning into swears in so many different ways. Um so I all we can do between me and you is have a discussion about how we navigate it and what what rules we feel work and what don't. How that makes us feel. I'm aware that other people will have very different views from Nura Shamba's listeners. So You know, take from this conversation what you will. It may not be applicable to you in any way. And if your children are.

Heidi

It's definitely not a lesson in how to do that about swearing. No, what we're doing.

Mark

No, we're making it up as we go along. And to be honest, I don't very often have to deal with being sworn at and to be kind of personally abused in a really mean and kind of hurtful way. But to be honest, I think that's a different episode. And it is one that I do want to speak to someone who's better equipped at that and has more experience of that to help other Neuroshamblers navigate that because that's a much more different That's a much more difficult thing to get your head around. So for now, I think we'll just leave the swearing as the words rather than the intent.

Heidi

Yeah.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, let's look at the positive side of things now, because there is a positive side of things. I think it is, as you say, it's swearing can be an outlet. It's it's a it's an authentic outlet. They are being themselves. They are communicating in the way that they want to communicate. Might not be to everyone's tastes. admittedly. But it can also give us a good indication of their level of overwhelm. Like I notice immediately when Jay starts getting a bit sweary. Which he has done occasionally. He did at the swimming pool the other day. It's like, yeah, this is now time to leave time. It's not like, oh, five more minutes. It's like, no, this is now the time to leave.

Heidi

So it's good. Before he got stuck on an asshole.

Mark

Yeah. I think it's quite useful in that sense. And I think it it is it's as I was talking about it as an equalizing behavior, I think that swearing is probably the most palatable of that. you know, certainly, you know, equalising behavior can be quite harmful, quite damaging, quite explosive or just as bad implosive. So if swearing out loud makes you feel a bit better about the situation that you feel you don't have control in, then that seems to be very reasonable. Way of doing it.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Okay, neurodiversity champions. Now these are Any people or organizations who are doing wonderful things in the realms of neurodiversity? Have you got any neurodiversity champions for us, Heidi?

Heidi

Yeah, now this is a little bit different, right? Because this is actually someone who is a friend as well, but I want to give her a shout out. So my incredible friend Lindsay McGlone, who is an Instagram specialist, a burlesque producer. a kind of all round badass, right? And she's just magnificent. And for the last we've been friends ten years. For the last four years Maybe even more. I've been saying to her, Lindsay, Lindsay, you are one of ours, you are one of ours, you are one of ours. Lindsay recently adopted the label, finally stepped into the gloriousness of, oh yeah, by the way, I'm autistic.

Mark

Okay. Okay.

Heidi

So my shout out is for Lindsay Mcglone. If you don't yet follow her, go and find her. She runs an incredible event called Reclaimed Means Business. Once a year in Sheffield, which is an event for where business people and cabaret people come together and learn from each other. It's epic. Okay. And so her business kind of like straddles like. proper business thinky stuff and strategy and creativity. Like if I tell you that she's running a challenge at the moment and for her launch, she was in Leeds city centre yesterday with balesque performers dressed as cows giving out milkshake. For part of her launch, because her thing is, my Instagram brings all the leads to the yard. So they were doing like my milkshake brings so then she got a milkshake company to send her like sixty cases of free milkshake, and she was in Leeds City, sent to give them out yesterday. With people dressed as cows. She's a genius. And this is someone that never thought she was neurodivergent.

Mark

Okay.

Heidi

So, my shout-out is for her for finally stepping into her glorious neurodivergent fabulousness and owning it. and for all the amazing things that she does, and also for just being an incredible friend and one of my best supporters. Awesome.

Mark

Thank you. So give me a link in the show notes for more.

Heidi

I will. Her event is in October, and I'm speaking at the event.

Heidi

It's on the ninth of October.

Heidi

Dressed as a cow? Uh, no. I will not be dressed as a cow on this occasion.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic Wins.

Mark

Okay, tiny epic wins. Now, these are the moments that for a neurotypical family wouldn't be any great deal, but in our neuroshambolic family They are epic wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins for us, Heidi?

Heidi

God, so many. I guess the biggest one for us currently. is that Theo has just done a stint volunteering with a local forest school. One of our neighbours runs a forest school. on the back of that had the idea that he would run some extra forest play sessions for send kids.

Mark

Oh, cool.

Heidi

like that feels like monumental. Like for him, like having been from where I think about where he was five years ago to now him like Saying, oh, I'd like to run some forest play sessions for send kids. But also, the reason this feels like such a win is because he is having conversations with parents in that forest play setting about their kids. and gently opening conversations with them about, oh, by the way, this might help.

Mark

Ok.

Heidi

That feels like things have come full circle.

Mark

So that's amazing.

Heidi

It feels lovely that he has really stepped into that and can Like he's got it like it's a job, more but more than that, like the thing he's doing feels like massive talking to other people like is big. Talking to parents is big. Talking to parents about neurodivergence is big. You know what I mean?

Mark

So that feels that feels like amazing. Yeah. I've got a tiny epic win as well. And again, sort of speaking to, you know, looking to Theo, and you were saying, like, looking back five years, how would you have even imagined that this would be possible? Um, I have a similar thing with with Jay, but just going back a year in that we we were navigating back to school, you know, in the various different y we've had a really nice, fun summer. Everyone's been on really good form and really relaxed To themselves, and it's been really fun. And obviously, I'm sort of nervous about the return to school. And I did ask Jay, um, you know, a few days before we went back, I was like, How do you feel about it? And he went, Oh, I'm actually quite looking forward to it. And I was like, Wow, what? This is the kid that was, you know, fuck you for sending that fucking shithole, kid.

Heidi

Right.

Mark

A year later, less than a year later, now he was like, I'm looking forward to seeing my friend there. And that, like, to me is epic, epic win. You know, this is the child who a year ago. when we talked about going into school was so dysregulated that he took a knife to our air tent. I don't know if you heard that episode.

Heidi

Yeah, I do.

Mark

You know, like They were so triggered by the concept of school that it was explosive and it was aggressive and it was kind of scary. And now he's in a place, and this school have been amazing, have been amazing to to allow him this space to flourish. And now he's looking forward to going back in. And that's just like that's a huge win.

Heidi

Yes, massive.

Mark

And I would say, actually, but just sort of tying this into the swearing thing, because I didn't actually mention this in earlier. They let him get away with swearing at teachers in the like early on. Like sh his teacher would phone and say, Yeah, he swore quite a lot on me today and um but it was okay. She was like very like, we're fine with that. We understand where it's from But I just think if he was in mainstream, he'd have been suspended in the first week, no question. And where would that have taken him? But because he's in this specialist setting that is hugely neurodivergent-friendly, and understands where this comes from and where the swearing comes from, and that it's actually just the means of communication. And to not have escalated that has now got to the point where he is happy to go into school, which I never thought I'd say.

Heidi

Removes that barrier, right? Like Theo was at a PRU, same thing. Like, just language is just never a thing. Aggressive, attacking language to members of staff, not okay. But the way they handled it was very different to what you would handle it in a mainstream. But yeah, part of regular vocabulary swearing, no big deal.

Mark

Oh, I'm excited.

Heidi

He's excited. That's brilliant.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, let's do some what the flip moments. Now, these are the moments that our children will say or do something that completely confounds us and leaves us scratching our heads as to how to respond. I regularly get these.

Heidi

Do you have any for us, Heidi? I mean, he gives me loads all the time. But Recently, we had a conversation where I was talking to him about the fact that so I've stopped drinking. I'm like coming up two years sober now, but you know haven't made any secret of the fact that pretty much for his whole childhood and adolescence I was a fully functioning, high functioning alcoholic. And I said to him the other day, you know, I do feel really bad about it, you know And I'm really sorry about it. And he was like, it's alright, mum, you have paid for my therapy.

Mark

Nice.

Heidi

Things around about Oh, bless his heart.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

So there was that. I'm sure you've got tons. You always have learned.

Mark

I've got a few. Again, on the on the issue of swearing, was Jay. This is when he doesn't swear very often to me. And it's only really when he's he's annoyed about something, but he just like burst into my room at one point and just went, This internet is fuck This internet is fuck. No, no, this internet is fuck. And then and I'm like, do I correct him? How did like, is he Can I say what? Like, firstly, acknowledge I acknowledge the fact that the internet is slow, right? But it's not fuck. It is fucked. Let's get it right. If you're going to swear, let's lean into it and get it right. I should have corrected him. I think I probably would do that now.

Heidi

Dramatically, though. Like, so he was using fuck as a proper noun, right?

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. Which makes no sense. And so I just let I was like, okay, I'll restart the router. That's it. It's like, fine. Just let that go. Another one I had recently was where he asked me to buy a video game for him and I just bought one like the week before and I went, I'm not made of money And his response was, If you were made of money, you'd be paying with your own body parts. Like Ye yes, I would.

Heidi

Yes.

Mark

Thank you for the observation.

Heidi

Oh, that's amazing. Oh, I want to tell you.

Mark

You got another one. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Heidi

So he sent me a video on TikTok this morning. And it was a thing that said about horses. And it said that the reason that women being topless in public is considered like taboo is because horses have a reflex response to breasts, whereby if you flash your breasts at them, they think they're big scary eyes and they bolt. Is that true? I don't know, but there was a video of a woman flashing these horses. We've got horses in the field behind us.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

He sent me a message on TikTok saying, I need to know if this is if this is true, mum. Please could you go out back and flash the horses?

Mark

I love it.

Heidi

I am not going in my garden and flashing my tits at the horses in the field behind the house.

Mark

Because you can't win. 'Cause if they run away, it's not great for the self-esteem, is it? I caused a stampede by flashing some horses.

Heidi

I can't do it, you're going to have to do it. I need to know if this is true. I do kind of need to know though.

Mark

For research.

Heidi

I'm going to.

Mark

So if any NeuroShambles listeners want to help put Heidi's mind at rest With any anecdotal evidence of this being true or not, then please let us know. Actually, this is quite a good time for me to say that if you do want to email some what the flip moment So that we can include them in this, or any neurodiversity champions, or any tiny epic wins. What I want to do is sort of open this up a little bit more. to Neuroshamble's listeners and make this a little bit more community based and give you the opportunity to kind of have your stuff read out as well, because also it saves me having to Scrape the barrel for some of my anecdotes. So, yeah, if you've got any neurodiversity champions that you want us to give a shout out to, or if you have any what flip moments or any tiny epic wins, then please feel free to email me at hello at hello@neuroshambles.com and I will read it out in the relevant section and it'd be really good to kind of get a few more people's voices. involved in this because God knows you're sick of hearing me banging on about things. That is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Thank you so much for rejoining me for season three. We've got a lot more exciting episodes. Plan, so please stay tuned for that. If you want to email me, it's hello at Neuroshambles. com. You can also follow us on TikTok, or Facebook, or Instagram, or threads. Thank you. Again, Heidi, for coming back and regaling me with your sweary anecdotes.

Heidi

Thanks for having me. Good rich with the edit.

Mark

Thank you. Yeah, I'll be swearing more, I'm sure. So that is it for this episode. All that remains for me to say now is have a nice life.