Surviving the summer holidays | Lisa Galley

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 42 of Neuroshambles. Now, it's very nearly that time of year where I take a bit of a hiatus from the podcast and conserve my energy after what has been, let's be honest, a pretty long school year. Let's think of it as my summer equivalent of a bear hibernating in the winter. If, of course, that bear, instead of sleeping, had to solo parent three neurodivergent kids for half of it and do a shedload of planning and preparation for the next season of its podcast for the other half. Anyway, before I go off radar for a few weeks, I have got a cracking final episode of the season for you, where I'll be talking to a wonderful guest who I last had the pleasure of speaking to back in season one. We're going to be tackling a topic of the week that I hope many of you will find useful over the coming weeks, as well as looking at some neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, and a handful of what the flip moments as well. So. Without further ado, and in the immortal words of Anton Deck, let's get ready to rumble.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So this week's guest is someone I am really pleased to be able to bring back onto Neuroshambles as a mum of three now fully grown autistic humans. She's been through so much of what us parents of younger neurodifferent kids are currently experiencing. So, the episode I recorded with her way back in season one was genuinely eye-opening for me. As well as being a former speech and language therapist, she is now an Autism Family consultant who posts some fantastically positive, neuro affirming, and surprisingly sweary content. On her School Run Mum Autism Instagram account, I am delighted to be able to welcome back Lisa Galley. How are you doing, Lisa?

Lisa

I'm great, thank you. I love that you picked up on the source.

Mark

No, it's like, you know, when you read that, you're asked one of us. One of us, it's lovely to be back. Thank you. Now you're welcome. You're welcome. Always good to chat. So, for those listeners who didn't hear the Episode you recorded back in season one, just gives us a little rundown of your setup and the neuroshambles in your household.

Lisa

So like you said, I've got three grown up autistic kids. Ep So they are my eldest is thirty, and then I've got a daughter who's twenty six. And then my youngest is 21, and two of them live independently, and they're both teachers. My youngest son lives at home with us. And my husband is ADHD and I have dyscalculia, which is the the the probably the easiest way to describe it is just number blindness. So I really struggle with numbers and patterns. And so we are a very yes, not a spicy household.

Mark

That's what's Yeah, and you're out the other side of sort of a lot of the challenges that many of the Neuroshambles listeners face, and you're still dedicating your life to autism consult consulting and uh to educating other people on how they can manage The challenges that we find, yeah.

Lisa

I just I just love autism. I just love autism, I'm just passionate about autism, and it kind of has always been a massive part of my life, and it made sense when kind of I stepped away from speech and language therapy due to burnout because of our family. It just made sense that, you know, organically it led into me actually working with parents On, you know, about autism and neurodivergence.

Mark

So, yeah, we are all very grateful that you're sharing your experience with us. So, thank you for that. Thank you. All right, so that is an introduction to your family. Let's crack on with the topic of the week. What's the topic of the week? This week's topic was inspired by a Neuroshambles listener, Amy Rutter. Shout out to Amy, thanks, because she asked me to contribute to something she was putting together for an excellent parent carer. Support community she runs, and I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But she wanted some tips to help people navigate the summer holidays and Asked me for my input for some reason. And it reminded me that I sort of said that I'd do an episode about that very thing and what better time to do it. than when many Neuroshamblers are standing in the metaphorical foothills of the summer holidays, staring up at the daunting six week trek ahead of them So that's what we're going to be doing. We're going to be looking at why the summer holidays can be so hard for many parents of neurodivergent kids, as well as responding to some of the questions sent in by listeners. So Lisa, it's been a while since you've had to navigate the summer holidays with your neuroexceptional kids, but I'm sure the memories never leave. You?

Lisa

Oh no, I'm probably mentally scarred by myself.

Mark

So, silly question. Do you remember those days fondly?

Lisa

Do you know what? Some of them, yes. I think it's always it's a mixed blessing. It is, it's yeah, we haven't got that school run. And you know, all my kids find it very difficult to go to school. So the that That goes away, and you've got that kind of element that's relaxed, but then you've also got that huge expanse of time to fill. Particularly when you've got kids that don't really want to go out of the house either, I think that can be really challenging, feeling almost hostile. To the house.

Mark

Yeah, it is definitely a double-edged sword, I think. Because as you say, for the kids, well, for both of us, me and the kids, to not have. to navigate the school run when you know it is tricky for them and they'd rather not be in school. But also, it's quite nice that there are fewer demands. You can lower the demands on them. And I think that's actually really important. Respite for them. It's, I think it's, you know, summer holidays is definitely more appealing to the kids than it is to us, if I can say that.

Lisa

They can reset, aren't they? Whereas we're kind of switched on and we're on. Go, go, go.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa

We're the dysregulated ones. Where's our six-week holiday? Yeah.

Mark

So I thought I'd look at the parents' experience first. Because, as you said, six weeks is a long time. And like a major factor in this, if I'm being honest, boredom. Right? Because I this might be a sweeping generalization, and this might be only my perspective. But I think there's a difference between how parents of neurodivergent kids feel about the summer holidays compared to how parents of neurotypical kids feel. Because I think in a neurotypical household, the kids get bored. And in a neurodivergent household, the parents get bored. Yep, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, definitely. Like you were saying, being held hostage to the household, because neurotypical kids tend to want to do lots of different things. Right, the summer holidays is a time for them to do whatever they want, they go out with their friends and they can be booked onto holiday clubs, or they can go off to activities unsupervised or pursue their hobbies or have play dates. that's not really a thing for the neurodivergent kids that we're looking after.

Lisa

I think it's hard, isn't it, as parents to feel like that, that there are those neurotypical families that having those busy summers and able to, you know, go on day trips. And I think we generally as parents go through that kind of grief period, don't we? But I think the summer holidays bring that back. you know, quite I think it can be quite triggering for those feelings as well, that feeling of you know, almost envy of other families.

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's definitely that disconnect between what we want as parents. how we want to experience our summer and how our kids are able to. You know, it's the capacity. I think that's the difference between the neurotypical kids. They have capacity to do all of these things. They have spoons galore to partake in whatever they want to do. And I remember as an alleged neur neurotypical when I was in the summer holidays and I saw that it was just a great time.

Lisa

Good to go out with my mates and had like yeah, freedom.

Mark

Yeah, definitely. And I think to be fair also it was I grew up in the eighties where Parenting was a lot more lax as well.

Lisa

Oh my goodness. Yeah, we were kicked out at nine o'clock in the morning and told not to come back. And yeah, five o'clock, yeah, which no mobile phones, just off the radar, and that was it.

Mark

You'd sort of come back for food and a lecture on how dirty you got in the meantime. So it was a different experience, but also my parents. didn't worry about me in that same way because I think maybe because I'm neurotypical, I don't know. Certainly, I wouldn't be comfortable letting my kids just sort of roam free for the whole day or, you know, for any great period of time. I think it depends on which child as well. Because Jay, I think we're we're slightly more able to let off the leash a little bit and and have a bit more autonomy. But Otto, I I think even when he's thirty, he's probably still still gonna need us for support. So it's it's it's quite an interesting perspective where the kids don't really want to leave the house.

Lisa

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of judgment as well, isn't there? Because I know with my kids, they wanted to stay in their rooms, they wanted to be on their iPads, on their screens. Like we're saying, it's that kind of it's that time to decompress. And we're kind of encouraged, aren't we, as parents to get our kids outside and to get them off the screens? And the summer's the perfect time to do it. But actually, you know, we're dealing with something completely different. And I I suppose as a parent, I used to think I was a bit lazy because I allowed that. But now, you know, I know that I was I was meeting their needs and, you know, helping them to re stay regulated and that's how their nervous system and their brains work.

Mark

But

Lisa

I think it I think it's really hard when you are parenting that way and against that neurotypical judgment of the family's society, f you know.

Mark

There's definitely an element I I feel, certainly personally, of of guilt. Like, I feel guilty that I'm not giving them this amazing experience. It's like, right, let's all go to the beach for the day and I'll take a picnic and we'll do like, and I feel guilty that Like I feel a as if somehow I'm not providing that for them.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

And that they're not getting the summer that I envisage that they should want. But also, that's completely based in like nonsense. It's fabrication, right? Because that's not what they want.

Lisa

That's not what they need.

Mark

I just feel guilty for not living up to an expectation that is in my head, not theirs.

Lisa

Yeah. And I think that's so valid. And I think probably most parents feel like that. And I know I did. But then you say, you know, like, no, we're going to have a family day out. We're going to go to the beach. We're going to do all these things. And then it's. flipping her end. And yeah, and then you just think, why have we done this? Everyone's miserable, you know, everyone's crying. It's terrible. that's not, you know, that's not how we work as a family.

Mark

If you think about it, if you feel judged about your sort of not taking them out, I f I think we're probably going to be more heavily judged if we do take them out. Because it's getting an absolute shit show. Everyone's kicking off and like, come on, we're having fun. Come on, children, eat your sandwiches.

Lisa

Yeah, definitely. I think you're right. I mean, the beach used to be an absolute flipping nightmare for our kids. Like we'd have one child who wouldn't put their feet on the sand so would have to wear wellies.

Mark

Wellies, nice wellies on beach. Spot the neurodivergent. You know, a crowded beach.

Lisa

Another child who would run straight into the sea and then immediately I'd come out and want every like Speck of sand taken off in, and you know, then wanted to sit in the car all day.

Mark

And you just think, Oh, why are we doing this? Why are we here? Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a struggle, isn't it? It is, and it is. really resetting your own expectations of what summer should be. And you know, my kids, if if I'm going to listen to my kids and I feel like I should because the summer holidays is for them to a degree. And so we need to facilitate them. And if you think about I was thinking about this earlier. if you think about when they get home from school, right, if they've been in school, if they've been able to attend school, they come home and they let it all out, right? That is their safe space. That's how they regulate. And sometimes that can present itself in like super fizziness or just exhaustion or anger and meltdown because they can finally let it all out. If you think about that at the end of a day, you magnify that at the end of an entire school year Exactly. And how much they need to just be safe and let out whatever they're feeling.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

I mean, you've hit the nail on the head, haven't you?

Lisa

And it's funny 'cause my youngest Barney, he's he's twenty one now, but he um I put a post on Instagram about it actually. I was it was very random. I was in the garden having a cup of tea and suddenly he appears with wet hair, just had a shower. Pyjamas, his best shoes on, running down the garden. Mum, mum, mum, I need to tell you something. And he'd said, I'd had a thought in the shower, and you need to tell your parents this. And he'd basically said, you know, what parents don't realize is that at the weekends, he was come at the weekends, all week we've been switched on and we've been doing everything every day, every day, every day. At the weekends, we don't want to do anything. So even just You know, coming downstairs and chatting, watching a video, that's taking our energy away. You know, we literally have to switch off. And I said, oh, thanks, Bea, that's really insightful. And I shared that. But you're right. At the end of actually a whole term at school, a whole year at school, imagine how much time they need to do nothing. And it's going to be immense, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah. So that's why I see the summer holidays as a positive for them to be able to just be at their own pace and To do things that they want to do. And it is, it does involve an unhealthy amount of screen time. And I know what you were saying about just feel Really guilty about it, and like that, and it's lazy. But I recognize that that's not all of them. I think Jay needs it a lot more than the other two. Otto needs to. To get out and run around and let go of some of that energy. And India needs a lot more imaginative one-to-one play. So it's about being able to balance what they need in that safe environment, which. You know, that that is the best case for our kids. As a parent, that's really hard work.

Lisa

And also that all all your kids probably need different things, don't they? You know, you can have three neurodivergent kids that all, like you just pointed out, you know, want different things over the summer, which I think can be difficult when you've got one child who really won't go out and then you've got another child who'd quite like to go out and how you balance that. And as a solo parent as well.

Mark

I mean, like I know, you know, in this I mean, I'm a solo parent. But also in the summer holidays, typically you'll sort of one parent will take the lead and they'll be on their own because you don't both need to be around. For that, I don't think. I mean, when me and Tam were together, it was very much Tam taking the lead because Tam is a teacher, so had that time off. And then I'd take some dedicated time off within that to be with everyone and do it that way. But that's where it becomes much more difficult to balance those different competing needs. When you're flying solo and going, Well, like, Otto needs to run it off. We need to get out, right? But Jay doesn't want to do that. So how do we balance that? Is the perpetual game that we're trying to play and trying to involve everyone in everything where possible.

Lisa

I can't be the only one that's experiencing that. No, I co-parented for quite a long time as well. And like you said, it's so challenging. And what I found difficult, although we myself, my ex husband parented quite similarly, that transition between houses could be quite unsettling in the summer as well. So you've almost got that reset When they're going from one house to another.

Mark

Just when they're finally managing to regulate it.

Lisa

Just when they're getting vetted, yeah. So that in itself can be a challenge, I think.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I want to do. Lots of exciting things for my kids as well. Like I would love, as an alleged neurotypical, to spend the day at the beach or go to a theme park or go for a long walk and a picnic. But that's not what they need. And that it's really hard to let go of that. And also to sort of look out the window and see other people doing exactly that. Or getting updates from f friends or family, or looking on social media, and you see this family off having a wonderful time and, you know, whatever they're doing and showing the world this well, you know, they've I don't know what I don't even look at it anymore because it's not worth it, right? Yeah, it's not worth it. It's like looking through the windows.

Lisa

Happy families. Yeah.

Mark

I mean, that's not the reality. I'm sure they've they've squabbled in arguments as well, but it's it's that kind of thing of like, oh, it'd be really nice to be able to do that, but I can't

Lisa

Do that.

Mark

And it's not that.

Lisa

And it's that spontaneity is, isn't it, as well? It's that spontaneity of, oh, let's do this today. And well, no, unless you Planned it in advance and warned them, then that's just not happening, is it?

Mark

Because I do sort of pride myself on being the spontaneous one, but I end up doing that in the house. Do you know what I mean? So I'm like, what are we going to do? Oh, let's make cookies now. And so, because I can't do that, like, let's all just hop in the car and go to Wales.

Lisa

For example, which would yeah, that would be an insane idea.

Mark

And I wouldn't ever do that.

Lisa

There's a good reason for that.

Mark

But you know, I I can't just make something up on the spot outside of the house. So I end up making stuff on the spot inside the house. And being a bit more flexible around that.

Lisa

And that's a great idea, though, isn't it? Because you can, we kind of did things like that where we'd have, like, you know, a picnic in the living room or. I'd follow the the kids' special interests and I might just about manage to get them to come to Hobbycraft and get some bits and pieces and then we'd come straight back. So I think you you can still be spontaneous. It's just, like you said, within the restraints, within the confinements of the house.

Mark

And in short bursts as well.

Lisa

It's not like, yeah, we just get away for four days.

Mark

No, no, I give it 40 minutes at absolute most. And that includes travel time and time encouraging you to get your shoes on. So that's half an hour.

Lisa

You're talking days then. I need to get shoes on.

Mark

So it's hard, I think, as a parent of neurodivergent kids. And I recognize that I'm talking on behalf of neurotypical parents of neurodivergent kids. I think, you know, if you're also neurodivergent, you possibly have a different experience. But I do get quite a lot of FOMO, fear of missing out, which again is you know, you look at what other people are doing and you just feel like you want to be doing what other people are doing rather than, you know, sitting in and watching the same movie for the fourth time.

Lisa

I've got this like PTSD with me of the horrid Henry movie. For some reason, I do not know why, but there was one summer that we watched the horrid Henry movie on repeat for six weeks, and I can't even like

Mark

tell you like the stress that causes me thinking about that now. Can we try something that I want to watch? No. Okay, fine. We're back to our remote.

Lisa

It wasn't even the whole movie. It was like, you know, like twenty minutes Of specific parts of that movie over and over and over again. But you know, I've got a cup of tea, and they want to.

Mark

But they also want you to share it with them. That's the thing. I've noticed that I get told off if, like, look, you watch this, I've got to make dinner. So I'll do that and I'll drift in and out. But I get really shamed into sort of being a negligent parent. I'm actually feeding us. I'm doing something, you know, that is beneficial to the household. But I get that they want you to share that with them.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

One thing I hate, and I think I think a lot of parents and neurodivergent kids, they feel the same way, is when you are talking to somebody Usually school drop off, something like that, just just towards the summer holidays and they go, So, what are your plans for the summer? That question. Oh, God, just my heart sinks

Lisa

Well, we'll be in upper jobs. By about week three, we'll all be feral. Yeah, but for some reason, like, I don't.

Mark

I I filter my answer. I don't feel like that saying that would be acceptable to them. So 'cause I should be saying that, like, yeah, I've just mainly staying in the house. With brief optimistic forays outdoor to assuage my guilt that we're not getting enough vitamin D. But apart from that, yeah, just hunkering down and just getting through it.

Lisa

Did you make up like really?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Can we go to Morocco this year? No, what? No, I don't just out and out lie. I just sort of shrug and go, oh, you know, nothing much really. And then just hope they don't have a full follow up questions. And they rarely do because typically the people that ask you what you're up to over the summer are asking because they've got an amazing summer planned and they want to tell you.

Lisa

They want to share it. Yeah, they want to share it.

Mark

If you just say nothing much, what about you?

Lisa

And then just strap in for the yeah, just let them get on with it.

Mark

Yeah, you know, I know I am interested. Like, these are people that I like. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm interested in what they're doing, but It's unattainable for me. Really, I don't want to know. I could say that, couldn't I? Not too much, but and I also don't want to know what you're up to, so let's just leave it here. Let's talk about something different. Because when people tell me about those plans, I think it's only it's only reasonable to have a a little element of jealousy. At the range of stuff they've got going on. Because as I said, as someone who has neurotypical aspirations, like I think they're doing stuff that sounds Amazing to me. I was like speaking to some really good friends of mine recently. We were just talking about summer plans and they've got a van and they're gonna poodle around the south west of England and they're gonna go to some beaches and take in different cities and visit a museum and like pop it pop in Like unprompted and visit friends, maybe see an aunt, maybe visit a theme park or a water park. They were telling me all of this, and I'm like, that sounds amazing. I was exhausted. No, but for me, I was like, I wanted to ask if I could go with them. Can I come, guys? This sounds incredible. But I have to be realistic. No part of that. would be doable for my kids. Because a lot of that is the spontaneity, as you were saying, right? They've got a vague plan and a vague outline of what's going to happen, but anything within that is going to be Dependent on the weather or whether they like a particular place and want to stay for a little bit longer. And I get stressed even just thinking about that with my lot. You know, of like, imagine. Yeah, because there's so much. A van, hiring a van. Like this. Because there's like the amount of transitions that that is, like day to day, activity to activity, meal time to mealtime, being away from their safe space. Being around lots of other people outdoors and traveling in hot weather, which is a solid no for Jay, and just introducing so many unknown variables. It's It's just not worth it, right? Because you've got to be led by what your kids can handle. It's not a case of just strapping in them and them doing it, because the experience that you think it's going to be. Is just unrealistic.

Lisa

It's not going to be that. It's going to be that. And the recovery time from even just a day out.

Mark

Yeah.

Lisa

You've got to at least put a day's recovery in your diary.

Mark

Yeah.

Lisa

Because the kids are going to be. you know, literally on the floor, we're going to be s drinking a you know, a pint of wine. So even if you do manage to get like a day trip in you know, the payoff for that is massive, isn't it?

Mark

Yes, yeah. And and we're not going to be experiencing it in the same way that they are. So it's like, you know, what we'll have is we'll, you know, we'll have a meltdown in a museum. And we'll have a physical altercation on a beach. We're going to stink out the vibe at a friend's house, be asked to leave. You know, that's the reality. So let's not kid ourselves here. Let's be realistic about what it is, which is why we choose to not do anything particularly ambitious. And it is, as I say, it's hard to not feel a little bit sad that that's not what we're experiencing, but you know, it's not about us, really, is it?

Lisa

And it's picking your battles, isn't it? And I think over time that gets easier. I think like by the time my kids were sort of teenagers with I mean, they didn't want to spend time with us anyway by the time they were teenagers. But we'd done so many years of that that we realized, you know, the the payoff if you're gonna, you know, have those days out, it's just not worth it. And I think you do you don't kind of not get used to it. I think we've I've always felt that FOMO, but I think you realize over time that you're doing the right thing and you just you do, you do pick your battles, grow a thick skin when people are telling you what they're doing and you know, as I say, most to most people, you know, it gets chucked in the fuck it bucket in our house.

Mark

Oh, yeah, I love the fuck it bucket. It just explained to the Neuroshambles listeners who haven't yet heard of the fuck it bucket.

Lisa

Oh, you've got a the fucking everyone needs a fucking bucket. Well, everyone who's got a neurodivergent child needs a fuck it bucket because if you know you you just check it in there and you get on if it's not going to matter in you know, five years' time, then in it goes, you know, so anything can go in there. It can be you had to put them to bed in their school uniform just so you could get them up in the morning, or they didn't do their twenty minutes' homework, or you gave them The chocolate biscuit for breakfast, yeah. If you're worried about it, it goes in the fucking bucket, 'cause it doesn't matter.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, nice. And that is the whole summer holidays. Yeah, you need a big, massive bucket, and it's all going in there. I mean, one of the things I wanted to also kind of Focus on because I think it doesn't really get discussed as much, and maybe that's I don't know if anyone has a similar experience to me, but I think summer holidays with neurodivergent kids Has a big impact on working parents. And I mentioned this very briefly in episode 38 that I did with Nicole Bateman. In that, with neurotypical kids, you can sort of book them onto activities. They can go and do an activity for the whole day, or they can go to a friend's house for the whole day, or they can go away for a whole weekend with with friends or people who will have them over to stay. And I remember when I was a kid, I barely saw my parents in the summer holidays. And that's not something that is an option. for us. And what that means is that we have to be around, which means that we have to take time off work. We can't be like, I'm going to drive you to football. You'll play football the whole day. You go to Gary's house I don't know who Gary is. You go to your mate's house afterwards and you come back for dinner, right? Great. I can do work. I don't have to take a day off work. that's not an option for me when I'm parenting my kids. So uh this year, every single day of annual leave that I've taken is to deal with some holidays or half terms.

Lisa

Right.

Mark

I think it yeah, I think there's an impact on On parents of neurodivergent kids, that is not talked about very often. It's not really appreciated.

Lisa

Yeah, and also if you do if you are brave enough to go on holiday and you're going in the holid the summer holidays, it's so busy that our kids can't cope with that anyway. So you don't even have the option of Going, well, actually, I'll take some time off in term time and take them away. So I think that as well is, you know, it's a real downside to going having to juggle your work around kids. I think one of the things as well is the fact that, you know, we get penalized for taking our kids out of school in time. But as parents have neurodivergent kids, you know it would be so much better if you could have holidays in term time because there are less people around it's less busy. So if you are brave enough to go on holiday, you've got to do it in, you know, in the summer holidays when it's really, really busy and really expensive.

Mark

And really, really hot. It's really hot.

Lisa

It has sensory nightmare.

Mark

I think there is a thing for neurodivergences that they don't tend to cope very well in the heat. Well, mine, certainly. Like last night was incredibly hot.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

And the amount of dysregulation going on in our household was insane. So taking that time to go on holiday in the summer holidays, if you do that, is just not as enjoyable.

Lisa

I think we all need winter breaks.

Mark

That's what we need.

Lisa

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and you're right about the heat. My kids are the same. Barney has to wear long sleeves all year round because, as I said, he doesn't like the feeling of any kind of air or anything on his skin. So he is just boiling all summer because he won't wear T shirts and he won't wear shorts. So he's in like you know, like a a long man's shirt and tweed trousers, you know, because he loves to dress well.

Mark

Yeah. So he just he's just absolutely sweating. Yeah, this is like Otto 'cause it's like the hot was it the hottest day of the year last last night or something? It was really hot. And Otto put on an Oudie. I was like, dude, you're not helping yourself at this point. Come on. Just didn't think about it. I was like, dude, if ever a day was like a pants-only day, it's today. Crack on. So yeah, there's that side as well. So on working parents, you know, going away is more expensive and your time Off, it has to be, it's actually staying in the house as well. Like, so it's not really a holiday, it doesn't feel like a holiday for you. Because it's basically like a lot of weekends, back to back.

Lisa

Oh my God. Yeah, that's such a great way to describe it. It's a long, long weekend.

Mark

It's a really long weekend. So obviously we've mentioned holidays and it is just worth drilling into a little bit more because it can be obviously really tricky with our lot too. For kids who are dysregulated by changes in routine or unfamiliar surroundings, going on holiday is not always as fun as it sounds. What did you do when you were raising your kids at that age?

Lisa

So um we did do holidays in this country.

Mark

Okay.

Lisa

Well, I was brave once and we took them to Italy, which was eventful. We ran out of Barney's safe food by about day three. And I think he lived he lived on these little biscuits that we found that were very Simatovich too for the rest of the week. So I felt like a terrible parent.

Mark

Hey, you kept him alive, Lisa. You're winning.

Lisa

But we would go where in this country and like you said, it would be kind of similar. It would be like cottages or places that were kind of on their own, so we could manage it we would never stay at a holiday park. Actually, that's a live we did go to a holiday park once and I remember forcing them into like the the little discos that they have and sit in there and Barney just looked at us and went, This sucks And that was it then from that point on. Full massive meltdown, never did that again. Um so no, it was it was places that we could Control and the same place, or we could take our own food, and you know, we could get photographs of what it looked like inside, they could see it. So, yeah, it was quite It would be very isolated when we went through it. It was almost like taking our house and just putting it in a different part of the country because nothing really changed.

Mark

Yes, it's controlling as many variables as possible while being in a totally different place, which. Which makes no sense. The theory of going on holiday is to relax, but as a parent, it is way, way more stressful because you've got the amount of stuff you have to pack.

Lisa

As well, to make sure you've got distractions and comforts. And also, like, we had to take their own duvets because they didn't want to have duvets that were there. Like, they were very specific about that. They wanted their own pillows. So, it was just It was ridiculous.

Mark

Turn up in a removal van.

Lisa

Exactly.

Mark

I brought the sofa, kids.

Lisa

It got easier as they got older, definitely. But Yeah, as they kind of coped a little bit better with change. But when they were when they were little, then yeah, it was um It was like moving house, basically.

Mark

Yeah, and that's, you know, that's the thing of the when, and then when you get there, it's like, oh, maybe we can do Something for a day trip.

Lisa

It's like, no, no, we can't.

Mark

We've got to take the video games and we've also got to take the iPad and just make sure that they've got all of that with them. So, our concept of a holiday is different, I think. a lot of the time. I mean, I do cover the holidays in a lot more detail in episode three of Neuroshambles. I did an episode about specifically about holidays. 'Cause we'd just come back from a holiday in Greece. And again, that was wonderful for many reasons, but it it was about controlling the variables. We got an Airbnb. We had access to the pool that was, you know, only us and a couple of other flats and you know, again, it was about hunkering down and making our own little space in a different country. And they still complain about how hot it was. They loved it, like they had a really good time, I think, and they remember it fondly. But they then like Jay is like, I'm never going back. It's way too hot.

Lisa

Turn down the heat. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

I just wanted to kind of focus again on the importance of the summer holidays. For the kids, because it is just that it's almost like this big sigh of relief for them. And I recognize that to my kids, this is a safe place. For them, this house, and they are comfortable in this place, and they can regulate as much as they need, and they can advocate for themselves as much as they need. And it's a this place works for them. So, when they get here, they're already kind of back to being regulated, which is lovely. And we've worked really hard to create that environment for them. But I'm also aware that that's not the experience of a lot of families with neurodivergent kids who have been high masking, maybe, or keeping stuff in. Getting into the house is a very different kind of release. and where you've got explosive behavior or you know, peop it's their safe space and that's the only place they can let it out. So for some people, though the summer holidays is filled with dread because of that.

Lisa

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point actually. Yeah. And you never really know how long they're going to take to regulate. So the first few weeks can be you can see more meltdowns, which is really tricky as a family, I think, that actually they finish school, you've got that kind of like, okay, we haven't got to force them into school, we haven't got to have that difficult School running in the morning, but then the meltdowns inc increase. And it's exactly as you said. It's like that massive like them coming home from school and having that three thirty meltdown that they often have every day.

Mark

This is like the

Lisa

Bigger version of that.

Mark

The August meltdown.

Lisa

Yeah, an August meltdown. So it's going to go on longer, which is really, really tough.

Mark

Yeah, and it's hard because, as you say, you're sort of locked in the house, right? And very often, the people that you would lean on. And we're all on holiday. So you can't go. You can't get them, right? You know, sometimes I'm like trying to make plans. So maybe I can book in some time for India to see her mate. So, you know, I can get one of the children doing something outside the house. But they're all off for a massive holiday for ages. That's like, oh, well, I don't have that option then. So. Yeah, I just just sparing a thought for the people to whom it's a much more you know, a volatile environment to be in in the household until hopefully you've kind of reached that point where it is they're able to just level out a little bit and be a bit more

Lisa

And then they're back at school.

Mark

And then, yeah, just as they do that, you go, oh, I quite like this child. This version of my child's excellent. And they're like, right, back to school. Oh, God. Dealing with it again.

Lisa

Yeah, it is.

Mark

But there is a little window. You know, there's a little window of time where it all hopefully will sort of equalize itself. Yeah, but I try and look at it from the perspective of my kids because, you know, Otto, for example, has found school really tricky This year. It's been really hard. And he's fallen behind academically, which, you know, I'm fine letting that go. That's just, you know because it's his mental well being, I think, that's much more important. And fortunately, the school are on the same page with that. So but for him to not be going into school and Sort of having demands and expectations on him that he's not able to meet. It's really good for him. You know, it's really important. Because I can't, I keep thinking back to how many times when our kids are in school. they are failing to meet expectations that are unfair or unrealistic. And how much of an impact that has on their self esteem and on their own well being. So just removing that, removing those expectations is this golden opportunity to just give them a little bit of space to be themselves.

Lisa

Yeah. Yeah. That breathing space, exactly like you said, to not have those expectations and just to just to be them without having to to mask or to meet needs. Yeah, I think it is a it is a golden opportunity.

Mark

It doesn't feel like it sometimes, obviously. You know, when someone's having a meltdown because you beat them at a game and they're like, oh, this is golden. This is golden time We are enjoying ourselves. Yeah, but yeah, it's a case of seeing it from their perspective sometimes and understanding that That's what they need. One of the things I did before this episode was I put something out on the socials asking people to kind of offer their questions or advice about getting through the summer holidays intact? And you also put it out to your legion of followers on Instagram. So we've got a few comments Some questions back. I just thought it'd be good to go through those and see if we've got any advice to give to people.

Lisa

Yeah, let's do it. We can try, can't we?

Mark

Oh, yeah, exactly.

Lisa

I would only offer an opinion.

Mark

So, one of the questions. That you got was um, how do you keep the house clean when the Hoover is banned?

Lisa

I love this question, it was great because it's like, it's so relatable, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Because again, this is someone who is housebound, right? They're not going.

Lisa

to school now.

Mark

Uh, so they're around and the house because they're in the house for longer as well, it's getting messier. That's another unspoken thing about being in the house all the time. The amount of cleaning and extra stuff that you have to do just multiplies. So if you're in a house and you're getting stressed by the fact that it's getting a mess, how do you do it when the Hoover is banned? Have you got any suggestions for that?

Lisa

Well, yeah. Couple of things. One, I was thinking my initial reaction is don't move.

Mark

Yeah, that's mine. That was mine, but straight away.

Lisa

Lower the bar, you know.

Mark

Fuck it bucket. Straight away.

Lisa

Exactly. In the fuck it bucket. But I get exactly what you said that, you know. When you are kind of in the house all the time and it's starting to get messy, you just want to get that Hoover out, don't you? So my hoover broke a few months ago actually. I have got another one, isn't it? I haven't hoovered a month. But while it was broken, we got a really hard Like bristled brush, oh, yeah, and just brush the carpet, and it works really well. Like a really good outdoor brush that you would get for like sweeping Pavements and that, and it just bought up like any dog hair or anything. And then I could just use a disc pen and brush it topic there you go maybe do a bit of that while they're in bed or um or if you've got if you've got a lot of money you could get one of those little robot hoovers couldn't you that just Goes around the house because I think they're quiet. Is that would that be a band?

Mark

I don't know. I love the word band, by the way. The word band is just like, tell me you've got neurodivergent kids. Without telling me you got neurodivergent kids. Child banning cleanliness in the household. But I get it. Like, it's it'll be the noise, like you're saying. So if you've got a little Roomba or one of those little automated ones, but that's that's budget that.

Lisa

That is budget. Lower the bar. Don't worry about the heat.

Mark

Just put sawdust down and be done.

Lisa

Yeah, just give a big clean when the buttons.

Mark

It already resembles a farm yard in my house. We might as well lean into it. Okay, another question we had, which was an interesting one, was home ed practice over summer? Question mark. genuinely considering and a trial could work?

Lisa

Yeah, that's another interesting question, isn't it? It is.

Mark

So this is presumably someone who is considering home educating their child and thinking I could use this to actually test it out and see how it works.

Lisa

It works, yeah. I've got mixed opinions about this one. So My concern is it might backfire because, like we were just talking about, they've probably had a whole year at school and they need to decompress. So it's about being really careful how you kind of approach it. So, you almost want to start by deschooling. You know, I didn't homeschool, but a lot of the parents in my community do. And the first thing they say is they spend a really good chunk of time deschooling where they don't do anything at all. so that their child gets to the point of being regulated.

Mark

Yes.

Lisa

So I think it's it's I would start with that and have no expectations to begin with. And then maybe when you notice that your child is starting to be a bit more regulated, then maybe try following their interests to start with. So go with their let them be kind of curiosity driven and maybe do some activities around that. And also notice your rhythm as a family because there'll be different times in the day that you eat, rest, play. So school doesn't have to take part between the hours of nine and three like it does, you know, typically. So it might be that your kids, you know, at four o'clock in the afternoon or suddenly really regulated and you use that opportunity to try an activity. But I think it's being really careful and balancing it so that we don't Cause more dysregulation if they've had a tricky year at school. But it's an interesting one. It's it's something to think about, I think, if you are considering it. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah, no, I think it's great.

Mark

I mean, I'm sort of not really home schooling, but I'm I'm Just introducing some learning concepts to Otto because he, like I say, he's missed out on quite a lot of the academic side of school. So it again, it's as you say, just finding the rhythm of when they're able to do that. It's usually temperature-led as well. There's no point if it's super hot. But if it's cooled down, or if there's a shady bit in the garden, you want to just take it out there and do something. That's my plan with Otto: to go grab a little workbook and then you know, see if we can work through it when the time is right, rather than sort of saying, at two o'clock, we're going to do maths. I'm not suggesting that that's what the listener has suggested, but it is about, yeah, I think give them the first probably three or four weeks to decompress and then maybe introduce it as a concept.

Lisa

As a concept, I think that's it. You don't need to recreate school, I don't think. You know, I think it's about actually the concept of learning. And we do that through play. We learn so much through play and through our children's own interests. So I would take their lead and go with it.

Mark

Yeah, I'm getting inventive.

Lisa

Like this is stuff they're not gonna do at school.

Mark

This is where where I d I I refer back to the when I was teaching Otto Times Tables and when I was sort of a asking him his times tables, he would panic because, you know, I'm asking him a direct question. And he knew that there was a response and he just got in his head. So we did it whilst playing table tennis. So we're like firing math questions at him while we're playing table tennis. They're not doing that in schools, are they? But it's again, it's combining his interest with and also getting him outside of his head a little bit. He's not having to you know, he's not stuck in his head and it turns out he knows them all. There's lots of different ways to be improvisational with it and enjoy. The third question isn't really a question. It's just the word help. Help! With an exclamation mark.

Lisa

Totally relate to that in most of your mindset.

Mark

Yeah, totally. Help! Yeah, I don't know. you know, I b I'm presuming that this is this is someone who's experiencing that the much more volatile presentation uh of neurodivergency and that their kids releasing that anxiety and that overwhelm in the home and Yeah, I don't what do you say to that? Like, I totally get it.

Lisa

I think it's it's about remembering that over the summer, really, our only job is regulation. Is regulation theirs and yours and whatever that takes? And you don't have to have a Pinterest summer.

Mark

It doesn't have to be a perfect summer.

Lisa

Whatever you do will be enough. And I think that's something you touched on before about how we feel guilty, we're not doing enough with our kids. And so I think it's about just making it so that you all get through it in one piece. And if that means that they are on their screens for eight hours a day and you know but you're all regulated, that's what you want. You want your child to be regulated. Yeah. So do what you need to do. I mean, that's my motto generally with parents. It's never fancy for me. It's always just Do what you need to do to survive and stay regular.

Mark

Yeah, write your own rules basically.

Lisa

Like, teach everyone else's expectations.

Mark

You know what you and your family are capable of doing.

Lisa

And have those little moments for yourself if you can get them. If it means locking yourself in the toilet and eating a Flake while the kids are banging on the back from experience. Do what you need to do.

Mark

I tend to sneak upstairs and just have a little lie down on my bed for like a brief moment of time and then I hear the footsteps. I'm like, oh God, I better look like I'm tiding in here.

Lisa

It's like a really long blink. I used to call it a really long blink. I just closed my eyes, just a little bit longer than normal. Do that several times throughout the year.

Mark

Yeah, just grab whatever moments you can. Good luck with it. Anyway, whoever wrote that in. Another question that we had is: how to build a loose routine for anxious PDA child? Struggles with transition between two houses, which actually touches on one of the things that you mentioned, which, you know, presumably the parents are separated and co-parenting, so that the kids are going backwards and forwards between the two houses. I for the record. I don't think I've ever spoken about this on New Ashambles, so this is interesting. We have a different setup, so Tam and I are separated. But we are nesting. I don't know if you're familiar with bird nesting. Where we have one house and the kids stay in the house and me and Tam tag in and out, basically. Because it's important. for the kids to be in one place. We felt like we didn't want them dysregulated. Don't get me wrong, it's really difficult for me and Tam, we're taking a hit really. on that. The kids love it because they're in the same place and we're consistent co parents, so that helps. But what it means is that we've conveniently sidestepped this particular issue It's not cheap, obviously, but we're doing what we can to keep them. regulated. Obviously, that's not possible for everyone, particularly if you're not parenting on the same page and particularly if there's maybe a bit more animosity between the co-parents. that's not really doable. And that's where this kind of issue comes in with with the transitions. And also, obviously, if you don't have the money to To throw at that, which you know, we don't anymore. But, but yeah, we're making it work.

Lisa

Basically, you're living in a cupboard when you're not. That's pretty much true, yeah. Yeah, I'm like.

Mark

Like Harry Potter, I like to think of it. So, as someone who's been through the similar experience, Lisa, you've got a a much more useful perspective on this?

Lisa

Yeah, I mean, it we did get on very well, but it was still really difficult having those two houses. And I think as much as you try to parent the same, there's always going to be differences. Communication's so important. I think if you can communicate with that Or the person about how that child's been before they make that transition. It's almost like when you're at school, and I always say to parents, like, let the teacher know the evening you've had the night before because it then that other person can adjust their expectations, which I think is really vital. Kind of made sure that there was two of everything, so nobody forgot anything. So, trying to make sure that they had the same thing at every house, which again isn't cheap, but that helped, that really helped. The actual transition itself, when they were younger, what we did was that during the period where they'd get to the next house, we would just give them free rein to let go. So Barney particularly found it harder because he was the youngest. and he would run down to the bottom of the garden, go on the trampoline, and he would swear. He would jump and swear and shout and scream. And we just left him to it.

Mark

And without it, it's really hard for you to see that as well because it's really hard.

Lisa

Really hard, yeah, and he would do it at both houses, so nobody took it personally. Um, well, I think he did, that's what they told me, anyway. Maybe it was just me. Um But I think it's having that space to just let them get it out and no expectations. So as soon as they came home, I mean, we we used to split the weeks. We'd have half a week, like three days with one. and then the rest of the other, and then we'd swap it so the other one had slightly more the next week. So I missed them terribly. And when they came back, you know, it was I really wanted Sit down with them and do things and talk, but I knew I couldn't do that.

Mark

Yeah, because they need to bed in, right?

Lisa

Yeah, get used to bed in, exactly. Yeah, and that might be even a day that that took. So my advice is definitely trying to have something the same thing at each house, communicate with each other, lower expectations when they come home. And that's all you can do really. I think, you know, it's it's hard, it is hard co-parenting and moving from house to house. But you know, over the years they've they've said that they don't feel that it had a detriment to them at all. They feel like, you know, they they had a good childhood. So that's all you can do, really, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, which is great. And obviously, that does. is so reliant on you parenting on the same page. I think that's the consistency that you can give them. But that is very d difficult for some co-parents, you know, that they have totally different, you know, maybe the reason that people split up is because they've got totally different

Lisa

views on parenting and that becomes a whole different issue. And I don't really know how to what to recommend in that situation. I don't think there's a quick answer, is there? But again, it's about expectations. I think that when a child comes back, you know, that if rules have been different at each house, it's given time to get used to the rules that are going to be different at this house. So it it's again, it's just about demands, capacities, expectations, it's just changing all of those things, which is really hard, I think, as a parent.

Mark

Yeah, and just not placing any demands on them. In the first no demands, yeah, zero demands ever. Yeah, good luck with it, anyway.

Lisa

That's uh, yeah, it's a tough one.

Mark

Okay, so final question we got is. How do I get my child on a plane again? That's a big one. I love the fact that it's again at the end, not just how do I get my child on a plane again. Yeah, which makes it sound like you've done this before. And for some reason you want another go. My initial instinct was to take the advice of the A team and Drug their milk. It's what they used to do with BA and it worked a treat. But I'm I'm I mean because I love it about these questions. I love having these kind of questions because you build up such an image of what this person has been through.

Lisa

What's that pain journey like?

Mark

Yeah, that it's obviously been quite triggering for the child and that the parent wants to go on a plane again. And I guess it depends on when that was, because I know that my kids struggled a lot more earlier. If they're right really young and they can't be distracted by screens. That's a very different plane journey than if you give them the iPad and go, You can watch what you want as long as you want, and then they're just engrossed in that, which is the experience that we had the last time we went on a plane.

Lisa

Right.

Mark

Which we, you know, when they're at a certain age, they can't really do that. They're not really distracted by screens, then it becomes a bit of a nightmare.

Lisa

It depends how long the journey is as well, I suppose, doesn't it? You know, is it just a couple of hours to Spain or are they going to Australia? You know, that's going to be a completely different journey.

Mark

Yeah, there's so much information we need to know to be able to give practical advice. One of them is. Don't bother. You know, if you want to get abroad, then you could go on the ferry. You know, you could get to mainland Europe on the ferry, or you can go to, you could drive and go on the Euro tunnel. or the Eurostar and get the trains. But probably not. You want to self-contain them. So I would think going on a train is probably not what you're looking for.

Lisa

Depends. Depends if the Barney loves his train.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. That's all he wants.

Lisa

Yeah, that's all he wants to do is be on the train.

Mark

So, yeah, I guess it depends on where they are and whether they're able to deal with distractions.

Lisa

And also practice, do a trial run at the airport. I mean, I know they're saying they've been before, but if it's been a while, something that we did was tech. I mean. I say we, this was my ex-husband because I didn't take them abroad, but he took them to the airport, a local airport, just so they could kind of watch the planes landing and taking off, get used to security because that was a real thing that the kids really were nervous about was security. And a lot of airports now do have more of a kind of inclusive approach to so it f depends where you're flying from.

Mark

This is where I would flag and I've done this a couple of times on different episodes of Neuro Shammels, but I'm going to flag special assistants. At major airports because Gatwick do it and Heathrow do it, and it is phenomenal that you basically phone ahead and you say, Look, we've got neurodivergent kids and we need special assistance. and the accommodations that they make to get through those bumpy bits of the airport. So it's not just the plane, obviously, it's not just the flight, but it's the transition between getting from your home to there. It's reducing that. Now, special assistance was incredible because you basically don't have to queue. You don't go in the massive security queues. You sort of have your own experience with a much smaller number of people. If your kids are overwhelmed and have problems walking, then I think it's Gatwick that has the special transport. You know, you're the little buckets, the little golf buckets. You can phone ahead and get that. So I know that a previous guest, Belle, had that and it was really, really helpful. And again, being in a sort of separate security routine with people who are a little bit more accommodating, a bit more understanding. You also can get a sunflower lanyard from an airport so people can visibly see that you're going to need a few more accommodations. That will definitely help the experience. I know it definitely did with us. And also, you've got a little quiet space again with Gatwick, I think, that you can go in this little quiet space before you catch your flight. So you're not milling, you know, like the main airport is just is quite overwhelming. You've got lots of announcements and lots of people and lots of shops and you know, that's quite overwhelming. Uh there are there's like a quiet space that you can go to with neurodivergent kit, where it was quiet until my kids got there and then it was not quite after that. But that was really helpful. And so I would definitely recommend that to easing that transition.

Lisa

'Cause all of those things that lead up to the plane, you know, by the time they've got to the plane, if you haven't got those accommodations, that's possibly Contributing to why the Plain GNA itself is so difficult.

Mark

They're already at boiling point, they're already at boiling point.

Lisa

Yeah, I said that's amazing. Just very quickly, I've got to tell you a story that my ex-husband told me. He used to take them aboard quite a lot. He was very brave. But Barney's way of calming down used to be when he was sat in the airport waiting to go on the plane, he would watch plane crashes on his iPad. That would calm him down. Because he said he he knew what to expect and so he he would understand the So the people sat around them, you know, were watching this child watching plane crashes as they're about to board a plane.

Mark

I think he's like a terror suspect. Or something. Exactly.

Lisa

Dude, that is.

Mark

Wow. Yeah, I can imagine that would be.

Lisa

Well, that was his way of regulating.

Mark

I mean, you know, each to their own.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

Maybe put the headphones on so people aren't happy to hear it as well. Hopefully, he didn't watch it on the plane as well.

Lisa

No, I don't think so. I think they he drew the line with that. It was like, nope.

Mark

What was the other the other um the other useful advocacy someone gave I can't remember which guest it was I think it was Belle again that told me this. When they book tickets on the plane, they book tickets so that they're in front of their child. So when that if their child's kick in the seat, it's you they're bothering and not someone else. Not someone else.

Lisa

Oh my goodness.

Mark

I quite like that idea.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

It depends if you know if you can flank them. If you get someone next to them as well, so you're sort of you know, yeah, so they're hemmed in.

Lisa

Yeah.

Mark

But you know, just got to get through it. And you know, if people have issues with it Yeah, let him.

Lisa

Yeah, cock it bucket again.

Mark

When I put this on the socials, I also ask for people to give advice. And I got not many people had advice. I think they're probably still just stressing about their just getting themselves through it. But I did have two responses to this that I wanted to talk through because I really like different people's approaches. It's interesting to see them. This. So one was from Lynn Clark, advice and dealing with the summer holidays: is take off pressure, put on gym jams. Yeah. Standard. Comfort. Food and comfort everything. Do whatever keeps everyone as calm and regulated as possible, including self. I think if we could underline that. I think you would do. This is all that matters. Other great advice. Stay off social media and alcohol makes everything worse. Now, social media I'm down with. Yeah, not sure about that. Don't take my booze from me, Lynn.

Lisa

That's the only thing you can do.

Mark

Obviously, not when you're on duty. When they're in bed, dude, that's you know. That's my safety valve. But yeah, there's it's it's all about just doing what is going to keep you calm and regulated As possible. It's really great advice. Sounds like Lynn's got it nailed there. Staying off social media is a great bit of advice that I wouldn't necessarily follow, but probably should, in that you're not seeing what other people are up to. Like you say, you know, like people's. Pinterest family of the wonderful things that other people are doing that you're you know, to reduce some of that FOMO, I guess.

Lisa

Yeah, it's a good idea.

Mark

Yeah, that's really good. And if you feel like you would need to cut back on booze, g you crack on. Not for me.

Lisa

There's nothing like a nice cold bottle of shubbly in the fridge waiting for you after a death.

Mark

For breakfast. Oh no, I'm just joking. The other bit of advice that we had was from Kate, a wonderful Kate, who was a previous guest on New York Chambers, and she said Having an Audi HD kid means a need for new experiences coupled with the anxiety that holds. So we've discovered a short activity out of the house most days of the holiday works best for us. I think that's wicked advice. Like that, that's something that I do, but without actually realizing it. So that made me reflect on, like, yeah, that's the thing. If for me, if I set myself an ambition of Leaving the house, just for a tidy bit. Doesn't even have to be anything major, just like, you know, let's, I'm just gonna go post this letter, let's all go. Or something like that, or a little jaunt to the woods and back until, you know, Jay goes, Right, I'm done, now we're going and then we all leave again just setting myself a goal. It's not even an expectation. A goal of if I can get us all out of the house briefly and then safely back again, like that's good. And I think that's good advice from Kate there.

Lisa

That's great advice, yes. It is. It's about those just those little moments if you can do it. I I must admit I was a bit rubbish at that. we'd often spend days where we hadn't gone out and then it kind of builds up, doesn't it? And you just that that will probably stop that kind of cabin fever that we feel hostage if you know you've got that. five minutes each day that at least you're getting getting out of.

Mark

I think that's kind of just that's more for me again, just checking off that like, look, I'm parenting, guys. I pet. Visibly out of the house. Okay, quick back inside before anyone notices that it's badly parented.

Lisa

Find pajamas that look like clothes or find clothes that feel like pyjamas. That's my answer, because then nobody has to get dressed. You can still Wumble down to the shop.

Mark

Crocs and onesies, guys. Come on, Crocs and Monsies. But yeah, that they just Just that little, those little duants, tiny bit of vitamin D, because I do feel like, you know, they would benefit from the sunshine, even if it's just, you know, by proxy. You know, that's not the intention. We're not sunbathing. We're just going to go out in the sunshine and back again. But yeah, there's great advice. And if any other Neuroshamblers listeners has advice to get us through the summer holiday, because this is the last episode of the season. then let let the let the NeuroShambles Instagram account be a meeting place for people to share advice. And if I get some good stuff, I might, you know Sort of make some socials clips on it just to pay it forward. So, yeah, if you've got any top tips, let us know. It's not all rubbish. Okay, so looking at the positive side now, um, because a as we've said, and I think it's worth reiterating, it's a space for them to regulate. and to let it all out and to not be subject to demands that they're not able to meet. So I don't think we should ever underestimate the importance of that for them. And although I moan about it sometimes, I love spending time with my kids. Like I do, you know, it's they it I get so much joy out of them. And so being with them for such a long amount of time Essentially, housebound, apart from the little dawns, that gives me the space to be able to do one-on-one things with them so that when one of them is doing their screen time, I could go grab Otto and go for a kickabout in the back garden. Or I can grab India and do some play with all the millions of soft toys that she's got. Or I could go and watch some anime with Jay and and just to make sure that you're getting that one-on-one time without placing any extra demands on them. You know, I tha and I love being able to spend that quality time with them and I'm thankful for that because I know that You know, when they're older, we're not going to have that, right? Like, I think. And I know that, you know, parents of neurotypical kids, they don't get that time, you know? So it's something that my My guest Jo said in the very first episode of Neuroshambles that she loves the fact her kids still want to be around her. And it you know, it's quite intense. A lot of the time. Let's not, you know, you know, let's not mince words here. But the fact that they do, they see you as that place of safety and that place of regulation is lovely.

Lisa

And it's important to kind of acknowledge that.

Mark

It might not be as collaborative as we'd like a lot of the time, but I'll take it. Neuroads Diversity Champions. Okay, neurodiversity champions now. These are any organizations or humans that are doing wonderful things in the world of Neurodiversity. Have you got a neurodiversity champions you want to share with us, Lisa?

Lisa

Yeah, I do. And just like your good self, there's a couple of podcasts that I've been on recently that were just amazing. Yeah, one lovely two girls called Sophie and Jade, and it's called We Are Not Your Typical. And I had the pleasure of seeing them yesterday and chatting to them, and they're just doing some really wonderful things and really down to earth, really just a really lovely space for parents to kind of connect. So yes, definitely want to give them a shout out. And the other one is a podcast called Let's Talk NeuroDivergent Kids, and it's Is who has recently started that. And again, I had the pleasure of pleasure of talking on that. And Izzy's really lovely and she's really she's got a neurodivergent child herself, so she's very open to These conversations. So, yeah, two really nice podcasts, as well as this one, of course. Oh, obviously. You're doing the podcast circuit now. Obviously. That's what I said to my husband yesterday. I was like, I'm on the circuit.

Mark

It's good to do. It's always fine. Thank you for those recommendations. I've got a neurodiversity champion that's been recommended by a listener, and I feel like it's. A convenient episode to do it on. This is recommended by Hannah Woods, who sent me an email recommending Legoland Windsor because she said, in terms of neurodiversity champions, we braved a trip to Legoland last week. And while the process to book an accessibility pass is quite complex, it's well worth it and the help in the park was amazing. The accessibility pass was a real game changer in terms of not having to queue and access quiet spaces. I don't know if you've experienced this.

Lisa

I've not been to Legoland Windsor, but I just suddenly thought of a quick tip when it comes to going to theme parks that me and Barney used to do is we used to wait till it rained.

Mark

Oh yeah, that's a great idea.

Lisa

Because there are no queues um and you get the park to yourself.

Mark

Yeah, them neurotypicals don't like it rainy, do they?

Lisa

No, they do not.

Mark

That's a good tip. So yeah, I mean we we've been to Lego Land Windsor. with all the kids, and we did the accessibility accessibility pass and let as Hannah says, it's a quite a complex process. But once you get it It's wonderful because you can basically go to the front of the queue because there's no way that my kids, in particular Jay, is able to queue for any length of time without Getting furious about stuff. And also, you know, with Otto, very often we will be in a queue and we'll get to the front, and then that's the point where he decides he's too anxious to go on it, and we have to. Leave the queue again. So at least we can make that decision at the front of the queue by just going straight there, cutting to the chase. So, yeah, I I endorse that. That was a really, it was a really good thing. So, thanks for the shout-out. Hannah, that pass is also valid at Alton Towers and Chessington World of Adventures, or Thorpe Park as well. So, if you're a theme parky family. And your kids are into that. I wish mine were. I really wish mine were, but they're not. So I think Lego Landwindsor was the last one. We were like, yeah. It's not for us, but if you're that kind of family, then make the most of it. It's definitely worth it. Having said that, this is the summer holiday episode, and I would not recommend going in the summer holidays because it's going to be absolutely full of people. Do not. Do not do that. Unless, of course, it rains, in which case, fill your.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins!

Mark

Right, tiny epic wins. Now, these are the things that in a neurotypical household would not be a major thing. But to a neuro-shambolic household, they are epic wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins? Are you still experiencing epic wins even now? They're grown up.

Lisa

Oh, Mark, I am. Good to hear. Good to hear. Please tell me. Well. Farnie has started washing up his own plate. Why? It's taken me years to get him to do. So that is one less thing that I have to do.

Mark

Nice.

Lisa

It doesn't sound very big. But it is very big.

Mark

Did you have to prompt him to do it, or did you do it?

Lisa

Did you catch him doing it on his own?

Mark

Because I love it when that happens.

Lisa

I've been prompting him for years to do it. And I don't know what clicks, but um Yeah. He's suddenly started 'cause he has nuggets, chips and ketchup and if you don't wash it straight away it's like concrete. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mark

And then so did you did you sort of walk past the kitchen and see him do it and then go, Holy shit, it's happening.

Lisa

It's actually happening guys. This is not a drill. Although, saying that, I went over to the sink afterwards and nearly fell over in a massive puddle of water that was on the floor. But, you know, you don't correct them, do you?

Mark

At that point, you're like, right, that's one battle. I've now got this one to deal with.

Lisa

We'll see if it actually happens again, though, whether it was a one or not.

Mark

Yeah, I love it when that kind of thing happens, though. So, my tiny epic win is that Jay was Physically sick in school recently. That's not the win, just to be clear.

Lisa

I was going to say that's a bit fucked up

Mark

No, he was ill and He was sick in school, so he had to be off for two days. That's the rule in the schools. If you've been sick, then you don't want to get anyone else sick, so you've got to be off for two days. And when we told him that he had to be off for two days, he said, But I really want to go in for cooking.

Lisa

Oh, wow.

Mark

Now this From a child who was in burnout and was like deeply damaged by being in a mainstream primary school and couldn't tolerate going into school for anything and was resistant you know, and we've had to build up very very slowly throughout the whole year for him to actually want to go into school for anything. The fact it's cooking is not really relevant. The the fact that it's a building that was so intensely triggering for him a year ago to get to the point where he is now, I like is enormous. It's a massive win.

Lisa

Well done, Jay. Well done.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And the school, dude, they've done a fantastic job of giving him that experience that he's he feels like it's at least a place that he Could cooking.

Lisa

Yeah, amazing.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, it's what the flip moments now. I love these. These are the things that your children will do or say that make you come. Completely just stop and go, What? And basically walk off baffled. Do you have any what the flip moment? For us, Lisa.

Lisa

I do. Not recently, but I was thinking back for this when I was thinking about what I could think of, and then something suddenly came in my mind, and it's actually quite dark. I just remember once that we were in the car. And Bonnie just suddenly went, you know, something like 80% of people who are murdered are murdered by somebody in the family.

Mark

Were you driving at the time? Oh my god. Yeah, so that was a what also coming from someone who watches plane crashes as well, you're like, I'm starting to get concerned here, but that was a while ago. So that was a while ago.

Lisa

It didn't turn into a mass murder.

Mark

Good to know.

Lisa

Good to know.

Mark

I got to what the flip moments I got one from India where I said, I don't quite know why we're having this conversation. And I said, What are you going to do as a job, India? And she said, I'm going to work on a farm, but I'm going to be cows. Set your bar set the bar high. Not just one cow either. Plural. No. She's going to be a little bit of a lovely. I love that. Not just the cows. All the cows. You know, when you're just like, okay, yeah, I'm not even going to question it. Fine. Put up with that. Her career guidance counsellor's going to have his work cut out on it.

Lisa

Is it profitable, do you know, to be cows?

Mark

I mean, yeah, they're all boys milking the profits, aren't they? And the other what the flip moment is Jay, where he tasted homemade carrot cake recently, which is always fraught with danger. It's very much like giving something to Paul Hollywood. He's very critical. And he tasted it and he went, Hmm, it's a bit too reliant on the cinnamon. It feels more like a cinnamon cake than a carrot cake. It's too dense and should be at room temperature. It's like a Litany of feedback. And he is literally four Hollywood. Yeah, I don't know where he got it from. I know, but also, I mean, I tasted it. He wasn't wrong. It was all valid. It wasn't just being a dick. It was all perfectly acceptable feedback. But it is also quite hard to take when you've spent time and effort and putting love into it. Love that. Love that.

Lisa

Amazing.

Mark

Actually, speaking of that, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine. And uh we were exchanging bolognese recipes. Yeah. But she was basically boasting about how her Bolognese was perceived as being the best. And she said to her neurodivergent kid, It's because I put a lot of love into it. And he was like, Oh, there should be love in every dish. And I was like, Oh, that's really lovely. That is not the response that I'm going to get from my kids. And I thought, as a test I would see what response my kids would give. And so I tested it out with Jay and India. Otto wasn't around at the time. And I'll tell you their responses to this as well, because I thought it was quite telling. Uh so I I said to India, you know the reason that bolognese tastes good is 'cause it's got love in it and she frowned really hard for a second and then she just wagged her finger at me And said, that's not true. Love doesn't make anything taste better. So, you know, it's like, as in, don't be stupid. Let's get real about this, Daddy.

Lisa

Cynic.

Mark

Yeah. And then Jay was even better. Because he didn't have bolidays, he was in a salad mood, so I made him a salad. And I said, You know why that salad tastes so good, Jay? It's because there's love in it. And he went I taste no love. I only taste rocket, olives, cucumber, spinach, carrot slices, and a tiny bit of spittle. So, you know, not all our neurodivergent kids respond in the same way. My kids were not on board with the concept of putting love in a meal. Hence, Jay's very Fierce criticism of a carrot cake.

Lisa

I just love that. I think he needs to be a food critic, basically.

Mark

He's a critic of food, whether he's employed to do it or not. So, yeah, he might as well be getting paid for it. Okay, that is the end of this episode of Neuroshambles. So, firstly, Lisa, thank you so much for coming back and for sharing your experience of getting through the summer holidays. I really appreciate it.

Lisa

My pleasure. Pleasure. Thanks for having me back.

Mark

Oh, it's always lovely to catch up with you and to be one of the little stops on your little podcast circuit that you do all the time. Also, big thank you to the Euro Shambles listeners for getting through this and also for being with me for the whole season. This is the last episode. In season two, I am going to take what I consider to be a much needed break over the summer because it's a lot of work this Podcasting Lark, and it's been seated in my pants quite a lot of the time. So, I am going to spend time over the summer really working on more amazing guests for season three, and I'll be back. Uh, when the summer holidays are over, because I'm taking my own time to regulate as well, I think it's important. If you want to keep in touch with me via the socials, then you can contact me on Instagram or Facebook. Facebook or threads or TikTok. I'll be producing a bit more content in the summer because I'll have a bit more capacity because I won't be editing podcasts all the time. You can also email me at hello at neuroshambles. Face com as well. Don't be a stranger, even though I'm not releasing podcasts. And if you want to leave a review for Neuroshambles on your podcast platform of choice, that would be hugely gratefully received. I should also mention the summer holiday survival guide that Lisa has put together. I'll put a link in the show notes to that if you want to download that and get even more tips on how to get through the summer holidays. I think that's it. All that remains for me to say now is have a great summer and have a nice life