Struggles with clothing | Steph Curtis

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 12 of Neuroshambles. Welcome back to the podcast, Neuroshamblers. As ever, it is a treat to have you here. Thanks for coming. Continuing to listen and also, thanks for the feedback. I'm getting some really nice feedback at the moment, so I just wanted to thank you for that because it is really nice to know that there are People out there appreciating it. I had a really nice one from Fran this week who was talking about the social inclusion episode. particularly hitting home with her. She said, In a week where people have both literally and metaphorically turned their back on me, your podcast was an utter delight I feel very seen. Oh, and I'm fine with the back turning. I definitely feel lighter not having those kind of people in my life. Which is a sentiment I wholly endorse, Fran. So thanks for getting in. Touch all the way from Canada as well, which is, um, I don't quite know how this podcast ever reached your ears, but I was very glad that it found a home there. Um and it it does go to show that experiences of raising neurodivergent kids are pretty much global, which is um Both uplifting and troubling at the same time, isn't it? Anyway, less about that and more about what's coming up on the show. We're going to be meeting a new guest We've got a new topic of the week, of course, and then towards the end, we've got the it's not all rubbish section where we'll be looking at some neurodiversity champions that relate specifically to the topic Of the week, which is nice. We've got some tiny epic wins and some cracking what the flip moments as well. So I'll stop wittering on and let's go.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So I am genuinely excited to welcome our guest to this episode of Neuroshambles. Because it's someone that I've been following from afar, not in a creepy way, but for a while. Because this guest first came to kind of my attention via her Instagram account uh Steph's Two Girls on Instagram. Follow it if you're not already doing so because it's excellent. Um and then uh they released a book which I consumed very, very quickly. But Basically, an audiobook, and I hoovered it up in about two weeks. And so I am delighted to be able to welcome onto the show, it is Steph Curtis

Steph

Hi, nice to be here. I am glad you said that the book took two weeks because I was a bit worried you were going to say two hours, and then I thought, yeah, it's not very highbrow.

Mark

I had to have had you on super high speed then Because some people do that when they listen to audiobooks. I can't do that. I like to hear the voice. And that's, you know, the slight slightly strange thing about talking to you now is that I've been listening to you for ages. So it's lovely to actually meet you. Now for those people who aren't familiar with your work and your voice and your family setup, can you just tell us a little bit about You?

Steph

Yes, so I have been around a while. I have two girls, and they are now 18 and 16. And it was when our younger girl was diagnosed with autism. She was just two and a half, and that I started writing a blog online. So, yeah, that's 14 years ago now, a long time. And yeah, that's kind of in the last couple of years that kind of turned into writing a book, and the book's just come out last month.

Mark

Yeah, and it's lit I love it, it's great. We'll talk about the book later But in terms of your family, you've got one diagnosed neurodivergent.

Steph

Two, actually.

Mark

Are they both diagnosed now?

Steph

Yeah, Arialis was diagnosed in the last couple of months. Of years as well. Okay, since the book was written, also autistic, but very different, and clearly was very good at masking through most of her school life. Yes, okay.

Mark

So that's a recent development. That's autism. And then your youngest is diagnosed autistic. With PDA as well?

Steph

With a PDA profile, yeah.

Mark

Yeah.

Steph

Yeah, because you can't I don't know, can you can can you diagnose PDA? That's a question for the PDA society.

Mark

I was gonna say, it's sort of like part of the colour of

Steph

you know, of their profile, as you say. Like a description of the type of autism. Yeah.

Mark

Yes, so um so it's all going on in your household Are you happy for us to use the girls' names, by the way?

Steph

Yes, that's fine here.

Mark

Okay, so we've got the youngest, which is Sasha, who has PDA, and the oldest is Tamzon, who is now diagnosed autistic. Okay. Well, thanks for introducing your setup and we will crack on with the topic of the week.

Steph

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So the topic of this week is one that I've been kind of itching to talk about, pardon the pun. for ages because it's a major factor in my kids' life all the time. And I think for a lot of neurodivergence because And that is the subject of clothing and wearing clothes. Because obviously, to most humans, clothing is hugely important. It is seen as one of the fundamentals that separates us from other species in the animal kingd Even more so than the capacity for reason, which, let's face it, seems to elude a surprising number of people that I talk to on a daily basis. But there is an expectation that clothing is worn. Um, and people view clothing as a way of sort of expressing personality. But again, w as with so many other facets of our life with neurodivergent kids, it's It's not simple, is it? Nothing simple about just wearing clothes. And I wanted to explore some of the struggles and the challenges that we face, because there's a bit in your book that you talk about that. Um, and so many of the things you said just were so familiar with me and rang so many bells. So I thought we we could have a good chat about it. Because it's it's been quite a a factor in your life, hasn't it It?

Steph

Oh, totally, yeah. Sensory issues as a whole, obviously, the other aspects of it as well, but clothing, yes, has been a challenge.

Mark

Because it is, you know, fundamentally it's a sensory thing, isn't it? The objections I think that our kids have to wearing clothes Based on how they feel, not because of how they look, very rarely. Yeah, absolutely.

Steph

Itching, as you said at the start.

Mark

It's a minefield out there, isn't it? Like any reason. to kind of reject clothing. My kids seize upon it in a moment. Labels is a major issue.

Steph

Yeah. We didn't have to go as far as cutting the labels out, although I know a lot of people do.

Mark

You did well.

Steph

Depending on how soft the label was and where it was, before.

Mark

Oh yeah, the yeah location of label and also just they hide them everywhere. Labels, they're not just like just behind the collar, you get the ones down the side and

Steph

Yes, there were, I think.

Mark

Yeah. And some sort of escape notice for a while and then all of a sudden they'll be discovered sort of four weeks later and then there'll be absolute outrage that it managed to elude everyone's attention And then I'm dispatched to cut it out and have to make sure that it's really smoothly done as well, as seamlessly as possible. Like trimming. Oh, yeah.

Steph

The number of labels actually that I have unpicked at kind of you know cutting through that tiny little thread. to make sure that you get all of the label off. You're not actually just cutting it off because then you're left with the edge.

Mark

Because even just knowing it's there is enough for my kids. And seams as well. Seems is a big thing.

Steph

Yeah, seems was the first thing I think that kind of, you know, caused us to be aware of this 'cause Sasha would struggle Leaving the house, struggle with putting socks and shoes on and socks. Socks were the major issue. Yeah, they were never right. I would have to take them off, put them on again, take them off, put them on again, you know, like tens hundreds of times before we could go anywhere. And yeah, I remember she went through a whole winter, a whole two winters, not actually wearing any socks And actually, I wanted to go outside with no shoes on either, so that was fun. But yes, it seems at that point we did find seamless socks and they were a lifesaver.

Mark

They need to be now I did, um, I recommended those on one of the other podcasts because I discovered them really recently. It may well have been from something that you put on your Instagram account. Um, I was like, what? What are these things? Seamless socks. They're bamboo socks. Um And it they they did make a big difference in our household because they are I mean, firstly, they do feel amazing, they do feel really soft, but they don't have the seams. And that's, I think, the issue with certainly with my kids is The feeling that the seam isn't straight. That was the big issue that they needed it to be straight across the front. And if it was a tiny bit wonky, and if your foot has been in a shoe for ages, it's going to be wonky in no time, especially the amount my kids wriggle around

Steph

Maybe they need to think about putting glue or something on the inside to keep the sock in place.

Mark

I think that would cause more issues than it solves in my household. But yes, the amount of times that I've had kind of these battles with wearing socks in particular was a a big thing. And also the feel of clothes as well. That was another major issue in our household of They feel a bit itchy.

Steph

Do you is that a a thing that Sasha? Yeah, so I I was looking back because I did write a a blog post about this few It was probably about six years ago now, but we were at the stage we went through several years where the only thing Sasha would wear was short-sleeved jersey dresses that weren't tight, didn't really touch her body, and they got more difficult to buy as she got older because other girls of that age didn't want to wear that kind of sty But anything but and I'd go out into the shops um and I'd find short sleeve jersey dresses, but then they'd have a big embroidery patch on the front or shoes that went in different directions and yeah, it was no, it just had to be Super plain.

Mark

And sometimes you have to try it on, don't you? It's like, I don't mean like physically.

Steph

Yeah, because that's impossible.

Mark

No, but I mean, yeah, you do have to sort of go. Well, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll be all right with this little feature that I'm hoping they don't. Of course, they're not going to be all right with it. They're going to be outraged immediately because it takes no time for them to spot it.

Steph

And feel it. Because generally it does there is something on the inside next to their skin that makes them aware.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Steph

I'm just being awkward most of it.

Mark

No, they're not no, that's the thing, isn't it They don't want to be difficult. They do want to have clothes feel comfortable on their body, you know. When they find something, then they really go for it. Were there any textures in particular that Sasha found difficult?

Steph

Oh, and anything that just wasn't soft jersey, really? Okay, that's it.

Mark

Now, India in the whole kind of world of neuroshambles is very often sort of little a background artist. India doesn't feature very prominently because you know the boys present so much more Well, clearly, I think this is where India is going to shine because there are a lot of sensory issues, and it's one of the things that really kind of tipped us off about it Is that sort of the feel of textures and just things like stickers? She's never liked stickers. She's always been really freaked out by them. And do you know when you go to the dentist?

Steph

Yes.

Mark

And the dentist goes, Great, you know, good job. You get a stick That is not a reward to India. India is like, what have I done wrong? Why have I got a sticker? I hate stickers. So we went through this thing where every time we went to the dentist, India would choose a stick but then insist that she put it on me, which I loved. I'm great. Like I will have a I will have a picture of Snow White.

Steph

Yeah, you've just taken me right back because that did happen for us

Mark

as well yeah so it's the fur little early warning signs of these sort of sensory processing issues that that I had no idea were kind of would Would evolve to where they are now. Otto is a bit different from both India and Jay, so Jay is also, you know, very sensory and And has issues with the texture of things very often. Otto will wear most things. His issue with clothing is about the physical difficulty with putting it on. So if it's got a zip, he's not he'll he'll basically avoid it. If it's got a button, forget about it.

Steph

It takes too long.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. So his whole outfit is just stuff that he can pull on himself, and that seems to suit him. But actually, if I help him put on something. Something else. He's fine with it. So he doesn't have the sensory thing, but he has the physical.

Steph

I don't know.

Mark

Either of yours

Steph

Yes. So I mean, Sasha's sixteen now and she still can't tie her own laces.

Mark

Okay.

Steph

And obviously for a long while we got around that and possibly easier with girls, but there was a lot of velcro involved but now, I mean, she kind of wants to. This is where the PDA really kicks in though, because she can't she wants to know how to do that. but the kind of the practice and her coordination not being as great means it's just not happened yet.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, I can't see a world where my kids will ever have late That's okay, isn't it? I don't know. I mean, you can get by on loafers.

Steph

Absolutely, yeah.

Mark

Yeah, I t I mean, there's all kinds of things I'm s I'm sure you could do. Yeah, I'm not there yet, to be honest. You know, like Jay is uh coming up to eleven, uh, so it's not it's he can still get by in on that at the moment. He's not going to be judged by his peers for not having laces yet. But it is a thing, isn't it? Like it's um, you know, particularly with with Otto putting putting clothing on um was quite difficult for him because of his um proprio reception issues he he finds it really hard to coordinate um you know so it would cause him anxiety so he there's there's hu like you know things that he just refused to wear because of the anxiety not because of the feel which has always been a a fun pro 'cause I have to basically guide him through it. Is there a case of just going just nip upstairs and get dressed?

Steph

Oh no.

Mark

And then come back down again. There's a you there's a you have to go guide them through the whole talk them through it, the whole process. I'm hoping that there's a day. You know, your girls are a bit older now, so does that is that more likely to happen on a good day?

Steph

Yes, so they do both dress themselves now. I'm gonna say, but Sasha will wear the same clothes any time she gets dressed.

Mark

Okay, that's right.

Steph

Which at the moment is twice a week because that's the only time she leaves her house The changing of the clothes is not a big thing because she's found what she likes to wear, and so that's her outfit for going out.

Mark

Well, this is the thing, isn't it? I think that finding finding something that's comfortable That doesn't trigger our kids, that isn't, you know, itchy and something that something that they're not kind of anxious about wearing is a huge it's a huge moment in anyone's life.

Steph

It's like few, let's buy ten of each of those because, yeah.

Mark

That's the thing, isn't it? Stockpiling clothes. It's ridiculous. If you open up Otto's wardrobe, you will find ten boxed up pairs of The same trainers in different sizes, like we've just robbed JD Sports or something. Yeah, it's ridiculous. So what what if if was to look in Sasha's wardrobe, what would I find?

Steph

Pink Okay.

Mark

Lot of pink. A lot of pink.

Steph

I mean, literally one pink hoodie, one pink skirt. I have just this year really for the first time managed to persuade her to wear some black leggings when the weather was cold.

Mark

Okay.

Steph

I suspect we've only got about another week of those before it's back to bare legs. Short skirt bare legs. 'Cause she's kind of just about tolerate because Sasha is always too hot. In everything, every situation. She has a fan directed at her 24 hours a day, pretty well. Wow.

Mark

Okay. Is that a recognized neurodivergent thing? Because all of my kids.

Steph

Yeah, I don't know if it's I don't know if it's if we can generalize and say it's everyone, but it certainly seems fairly for us.

Mark

There is there is definitely a kind of a temperature regulation thing going on because the The huge struggle I have is with my kids dressing appropriately for the weather.

Steph

Yeah.

Mark

It is.

Steph

I can't remember the last time Sasha wore a coat.

Mark

It's a nightmare, isn It and I don't know what it is about it, and it may well be because they're too hot. So, every single time we go to leave the house, I mean, I'm like, it's feeling a bit springier now, right? The sun is out a little bit more, the birds are singing. I'm like,

Steph

Thank Christ, I don't have to battle to get them to wear I can tell you, in the back seat of my car, I've got a huge bag, one of those bags for life, that has spare spare boots, spare scarf, spare hats, spare gloves. a spare coat just in case the car breaks down. And literally, you know, we've been there two hours and she finally will admit that she's cold because she's not wearing any of it unless she really has to.

Mark

This is the thing, isn't it? Because you feel like you need to pack them, right? Every time I go to leave the house, it's like, well, they're not going to wear their coats, but if I don't have them that's going to be as big a problem, right? If they need them and don't have them. So I'm always found wandering around with coats draped over me. It's so frustr Because it sometimes I will say, look, it is raining. It's absolutely throwing it down. Can you wear your coat? And I will sometimes insist. And they will sometimes humor me, but it will be like, well, you say that. I think they've worked it out now. They basically get out of the house. Far away enough from the house for me to not be able to change my mind, then they take their coats off and give them to me to hold anyway.

Steph

Yeah.

Mark

Like I'm some butler behind them going I'll take a coat, my lady. It's so infuriating. But, you know, at some point, as the parent of a neurodifferent kids. You've just got to let it go, haven't you?

Steph

Oh, yeah. It doesn't obviously, you know, Sasha is not feeling the cold. I've just kind of had to accept that And yeah, ignore anybody else giving me funny looks.

Mark

That's the big thing, isn't it? Because I do feel very judged when especially at school drop-off with India, right? India only wears a hoodie, right? She she won't wear anything, you know, sensible when it's absolutely throwing it down or it's literally freezing. And I've had people make comments before Oh, she hasn't got a coat. I was like, Of course she's got a coat, dude.

Steph

Yeah, I just couldn't be bothered to buy her one.

Mark

Exactly. No, she doesn't deserve it. She's got to earn it. I mean, like, what kind of parent do you think I am? Of course, she's got a coat. she just will not wear it and um it's really it's really frustrating because you you feel judged, right?

Steph

Yes, totally.

Mark

Have you ever been on the receiving end of of comments

Steph

No, see, I think I'm quite good at just keeping my ears closed and taking any of that in. It's been so many years now that I pay no attention to other people.

Mark

I think I'm extremely rejection Sensitive, so I'm like always on the lookout for that kind of thing, but India has this thing. that I noticed um that her teacher when so when you go to pick them up from school her teacher would send the kids out you know When they saw their parents, but insisted on them wearing coats before they left because that's what most kids do, and that's obviously a sensible thing to do. Make them wear a coat because it's raining or it's snowing or it's just cold, right? And so Indy would look really grumpy. She'd be really, she'd put it on like a really grumpy face. And then she'd go through the door and literally two steps away from the teacher would just take the coat off and either throw it on the floor out of defiance, just like Or just give it to me. So I actually then, it was quite a big moment for me. I just went to the teacher and went, Can you stop doing that, please? Like, I'm. What's the point? There's no point. She doesn't like it. She's. Suspected neurodivergent, and it's causing her anxiety. And let's, you know, if she doesn't want to wear a coat, let's not. Not forcer, and the teacher was amazing. Actually, so it turns out it's also neurodivergence. Late diagnosed and was just like, oh, well, okay, I've got you. I got these.

Steph

Sasha was maybe a bit more extreme because they did you know they did try and make her wear coat as well, but Sasha was very good at the whole avoiding and refusing and resisting kind of thing. So I don't think they ever had any success with getting her to put the coat on in the first place.

Mark

Did they keep trying?

Steph

Did they keep trying?

Mark

No, we gave up.

Steph

I think just didn't you know, send it in was the the solution. Just go around without it

Mark

Yeah, yeah. One of the most frustrating ones was we found a coat that India loved, and it was amazing. It was waterproof, it was fleece lined, it had little bare ears. which India loved. You know, it ticked every box. And then as she got a bit older, the sleeves started to ride up a bit. That's a big issue, I think. think for a lot of uh neurodivergent kids. So the sleeves weren't quite right. They didn't quite go all the way to the end of the arms.

Steph

So you're saying that and I'm I'm I'm doing this with my jumper. But even I remember as a young girl also wanting the sleeve to come over my he

Mark

Um, so what we thought was a reasonable thing to do would be like you we know you like the coat. I like the coat. Let's just get another coat in the bigger size. Not as easy as that, is it, Stan?

Steph

No. Definitely not, yeah.

Mark

She refused. She just was like, No, it's not still not quite right. I don't unspecified, it will never be the same as the other one.

Steph

Yeah.

Mark

Um, so we bought a coat That has never been worn and is I love it. It's such a great coat. And I'm just sort of like, I don't know why we're holding on To it, Steph.

Steph

Yeah, I've got new things, I've got new trainers sitting out there that have never been won because they're not the same as the old ones.

Mark

Yeah, none of my kids have been able to articulate that, so I'm just trying to pick up whatever clues I can get as to why this is unacceptable. But has Sasha been able to articulate that A little bit.

Steph

No, so equally, she's not great at expressing herself.

Mark

Okay, so just picking up the crumbs of information that you're getting and trying to knit them into some sort of narrative that makes sense. Yeah. We're like Colombo. One of the interesting things about my kids is that they've they've made me challenge my own view of clothing Have you had that?

Steph

Yes, as in whether it's necessary at all?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, but not at all. I still think there's a time and a place of wearing pants at the table.

Steph

Yeah, but I think Tasha actually would be a naturist if she could.

Mark

Yeah, well, I mean, she can, but maybe not quite. She'd have to be both. Yeah, to be honest, I think Jay has got those sort of sensibilities. Because he's much, much, much more comfortable naked, right?

Steph

Yes.

Mark

He'll get in the house and it's all off then, which is great for him. He's just prancing around. I don't need to see it. But I'm not going to, you know, make and put clothes on just to satisfy me. That's fine. You can do you it's you this is your safe space This is your own home. You can do what you want. But that can sometimes be awkward if someone comes to the door. Or, as happened to me, when I was on a Zoom call for work. And Jay Jay just burst the door open and walked in and asked me like if he could have a banana or something like and I'm like really panicking like like quick find the find the camera button.

Steph

Trying to move the book around to cover things.

Mark

Yeah, I like it. Yeah, that would have been excellent. But I didn't think for quick enough. I just panicked and then found the camera and turned that off. And then, like, started telling Jay to just get some clothes on. You can't just walk in here while I'm on a call.

Steph

And then you forgot that you weren't on mute.

Mark

Exactly. Exactly right. Yeah. So everyone heard me having this conversation with Jay. Because also he's arguing with me because, you know, because that's that's what he does. So I'm having I'm bickering with him about why he should wear wear pants while I'm on a Zoom call. Mortifying.

Steph

That is interesting because we have obviously two girls Scenario with a dad here. And so yes, Sasha was not keen on many clothes for quite a long time, longer than other children. So it's interesting to think about where is that cutoff line, at what age. or stage, should you be saying no or making that cover up happen? It is a challenge.

Mark

Oh yeah, I've not even really thought about that yet because it's I mean, it's always inappropriate with with Jay. He's not shy. He's constantly like thrusting or bending it's not it's not anything I need to see. But yeah, there will be that that age where that will become a a thing and and And I presumably he'll feel self-conscious. I don't know. I'm hoping that that kicks in at some point. He's shown absolutely no proclivity for self-awareness or self-consciousness at the moment. But that's I'm hoping that creeps in as he gets a bit older. But one of the other challenges is isn't just like, um, you know, sh do they need to wear clothes at all, but it's it's specific things like like socks, as we mentioned earlier. With any neurodivergent kid I find, and especially with P D You have to explain the reasons for everything if they can't understand it. You have to give them a good reason.

Steph

And they ask you why, if you haven't got a good answer, exactly.

Mark

So, when I'm asked, why do I have to wear socks? I'm just like uh it's warmer? Well we've already established that uh that that temperature is not a good reason. Okay, so your feet will rub in shoes. I mean, I find myself clutching at straws, and then I'm just like, well, actually, there's no good reason at all, is there?

Steph

No, you're right. We switched to we bought Sasha some of those fur lined boots. Okay. Obviously, not the very expensive brand, but yeah, when she was sort of three or four that sort of age.

Mark

And so yeah, she didn't wear any socks for the whole And did that work with the with the fur lined boots?

Steph

Yes, because it was soft, they were soft inside. So yeah, why have another layer of socks?

Mark

The other the other thing I had to question and this is again India that's challenged me on this, is pants. Why do we have to wear pants? Now that's a slightly diff more difficult Conversation to have. But we found that Indy had just been sneaking out of the house without pants on because. Because India was just like, I'll get myself dressed. Like, wicked. Great. You crack on. Fantastic. Someone I don't have to either badge it into doing it or actually physically help out. Great. And then one day we just realized that. Hang on a second, we never have to wash India's pants. Why is this?

Steph

Yes. Although to be fair to her, I agree, pants can be so bloody uncomfortable.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, true.

Steph

Well, I mean, certainly for women anyway.

Mark

So that may again, it may be questioned. It's like, well, you know, hygiene is it's a bit more of a reasonable response to that. So I had to really drill down into there was like one one pair of pants that Would wear, so then I had to really work on what is it about the pants apart from the picture of the doughnuts on, and it's a really unpicket. But I found out exactly the pot kind of pants you could tolerate and I bought a load of those. So that's good. I think I feel like I did a good I did a good job Job there. I don't think fashion is really anything that, for my kids at the moment, at the stage they are at the moment, plays any role in why they wear what they wear. There is, do you? I mean, you again, your girls are older, so is that?

Steph

Yeah, no, I mean, for Sasha, you know, it's never is she doesn't really care what other people think anyway. Nor should she. Well, exactly. But she's si she's sixteen. She is nearly six foot tall and she's walking around in a pink hoodie and a pink skirt. So that does kind of draw a bit of attention probably from other teenagers who are all in their black hoodies.

Mark

Yeah, okay. But is she is she interested in in

Steph

kind of fashion or or no, so and no, and I mean, she it's been a while, probably like five or six years since she's actually been out in the shops and seen anything.

Mark

Right, okay.

Steph

We did have one or two kind of sessions like that, um, like I said, five or six years ago. Around age of 11 or whatever. But she doesn't want anything with any slogan on it. She doesn't see the point in having, you know, California or New York written across your chest. I kind of agree with you.

Mark

I'm not in New York.

Steph

What's the point of that? Yes, exactly. And she's not wrong. But yeah, no, and you know, like really is very fixed on the colour pink. So other colours have been really difficult to trend, introduce. Yeah. And we haven't very fixed So yeah, luckily I kinda get but that's a that's a pro in a way, isn't it? That fashion is not a big thing for her. She doesn't want to spend lots of money on clothes. So there's definitely a faith in there to make up for all those super socks.

Mark

Definitely. I mean so Jay doesn't really Give a hoot because he's at that age now, about 11, 10 or 11, he's not quite 11 yet, where kids are starting to look towards how they appear. And what they're wearing and what other people are wearing, and what round trainers are called, what the footballers are. Clothing as an element of self-expression and a way of identifying their own kind of persona, if you like. He doesn't he doesn't he doesn't care what he wears. Like he he regularly wears stuff that He just sees he's f found clothing in the street he likes. That's the thing. Don't know. You know, when people are throwing stuff out, they just leave a box of clothes. He's like, Oh, I've got a cardigan I like that. I'll wear that. He's not. What is quite interesting is that he's not really. bothered by the gender of the item of clothing. So he'll like he'll happily wear a a a female in inverted commas for the the ben Of the podcast listeners, a female cardigan just because he likes the colour and the feel of it, I guess. So he's not really bothered by that. And there was one time where he liked wearing skirts. In the house. And that, again, was purely sensory. So there was no, it wasn't any sort of gender expression. It was like, you know what? I like the fact that it's it's loose and it's comfortable. I don't feel restricted and it feels nice. And so yeah, so that was quite interesting in terms of questioning my own view of clothing. I don't know if you're like me when you thought I'm going to have kids and I know how my kids are going to dress. I know how my kids are going to look because I'm going to dress them. I'm going to choose, they're going to be little mini me's. Right? Did you have those visions?

Steph

Yeah, oh yes, definitely. And and I suppose 'cause with our eldest then that, you know, did happen. It's only when Sasha came along and the PGA stopped all of that.

Mark

'Cause I definitely had this little my kids are gonna wear added ass trainers and they're gonna wear You know, like cool band t-shirts and maybe a check shirt. None of that has ever happened, ever. I've just had to completely abandon that. That's never going to happen. I'm lucky if they wear pants as we've established. So you've just got to let that slide and let them find their own way. And um sometimes I forget that what they're wearing's Is a bit jarring to strangers.

Steph

To the people, yeah.

Mark

There was once I went to pick up Jay from an after-school thing and I took the other two to pick him up and they insisted on wearing onesies and croc. Because again, that is a pretty good staple of neurodivergent kids. It's a very super comfortable and easy to get on and off. And that's all fine. So it was like, great, get in the car, we'll go. And we went into the building, and they were wearing that outfit, and people were like commenting And going, oh, these guys look great. It's like, it's so familiar to me that it's not even worthy of comment.

Steph

No. But but people and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's great, isn't it?

Mark

No, absolutely. But it's just you've sort of you've you become immune to how unusual that is outside of your own house.

Steph

Yes.

Mark

I genuinely don't know how old they're going to be, when or even if they grow out of onesies and crocs. I have visions of of Otto and Jay and India all walking up the aisle to get married, wearing a wedding onesie and Crocs

Steph

And why not if they want to?

Mark

Yeah, exactly. I'm not gonna yeah, yeah. I think we should insist all the guests do it as well. We'll make it like a theme wedding. Obviously, as we've established, it is not easy trying to kind of persuade our kids to wear clothes. That we might suggest to them. And the problem with this is how the hell do you introduce them to new clothes? you know, you you've alluded to some um previous attempts to go shopping. My kids are not not for shopping I can't I can't get out of it.

Steph

That was like, I think two occasions that I can think of in the last sixteen years.

Mark

And did you get anything out of it, any clothing out of it?

Steph

Uh no, I don't think we did, but I but I did. I mean, so this is like a a little win that I did actually get. her to try some things on in a shop change and that was because well, largely because she was out of school at the time and so it was all quiet 'cause it was a week Thursday morning with no one around, so that helped.

Mark

I I haven't really tried to get Jay to go close shop. Because I know that that is never going to work. Otto, as long as I'm there, will go anywhere with me. So he'll do it, but he also won't have any opinion and he'll wear what So that's okay. India I went clothes shopping with and that was that was actually quite fun Weirdly. Um, because she does actually care about what she wears, but she also hu like rejects a lot of different things because of how they feel.

Steph

Yeah, that's a huge issue.

Mark

So, if I say, Do you like this? The first thing she does is feel it. She doesn't care what it looks like. She could go shopping blindfold. In fact, that might be the best way of doing it. Just letting her loose in a letting her loose in a clothes shop and go, Tell me what you like and then she'll just be walking around feeling them I'm going to this one. It's like, okay. I mean, it's a bold look, pantaloons, but why not?

Steph

The softer the better.

Mark

But that has been the most successful in that the jumper that we chose. Is, you know, garish. I think I'll charitably say garish, but she loves the feel of it and she wears it all the time. So I think maybe I have to do that

Steph

Generally, you know, I have to do the ordering at home. I remember the time trying to get some school shoes where I ordered twelve pairs of shoes and had them all laid out across the the um yeah, the the floor trying to get her to try them on. That was painful.

Mark

'Cause this is the thing is that you have to order online. Yeah. Like the the the postman must Fucking hate our household. It appears that we've got 12 identical sized boxes.

Steph

What are you pulling here? It's like they're acting so quickly as well, don't they?

Mark

Oh, so so yes, we constantly because it's not just ordering them online, it's the extra admin of taking them back again. You have to take them back to the post office. Just to get one pair of shoes that might work. If you're lucky, yes. And it is just like this feeling of dread that you get when you're sort of approaching. One of your kids with a new item of clothing, just hoping like I've tried really hard to get something. I like you've liked something simil To this in the past, and it is now your size. So, you know, it's like approaching the man from Del Monte with a kiwi. Please, sir. Approve.

Steph

I'm trying to help you here.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for you. Exactly. Just that that moment. It's that moment, isn't it? When you're like, you give it to them for the first time, it's like, now I've it's this is it's taken two weeks to get here. I've spent a whole evening looking at different options of shorts, right? I've found four different types and I've narrowed it down to this one. Now, and you sort of tiptoe up to them. But again, you can't go, hey, I thought you like these, or do you like these? Because PDA will just be like, No, I mean, even if I did, I'm going to say no. So either you just leave them lying around.

Steph

Yeah.

Mark

I happen to have left some new shorts at the top of the stairs. Let's see how that pans out. He just walks past it for like two weeks. Or the other one is you just give them some options, a number of different options and hope that one of them sticks. But again, it just it's not always Not always the way, is it? And sometimes it is deeply, deeply frustrating because it's The expense of all of this is the worst thing. I think this is an unspoken thing about our lifestyle is how expensive it is to buy stuff that they might wear once and maybe even then just to humor you.

Steph

Right.

Mark

Just to get you off their case. All right, I'll wear them. Fine.

Steph

Yeah, they say it's okay, but then actually when it comes to wearing it, yeah, to actually putting it on to go anywhere in it, then actually know it's not okay anymore.

Mark

And then the moment they wear them, you can't take them back now. That's it.

Steph

It's like driving a car off the forecourt.

Mark

That moment, it's like, nope, that's it now. It's instantly devalued. It's not just clothing that causes this issue. It is also very, very keenly felt in my family with footwear. With shoes. It's an absolute nightmare.

Steph

Yeah, there's only one pair of trainers that Sasha will wear. and they have to have pink on them. In fact, we have we have managed to to move away from the bright pink trainers, like all pink. So now they are black with pink. So we have eventually we managed to graduate a little bit. But yes, super comfortable trainers, nothing else. So but obviously in winter when it's raining, that is a bit of an issue because you will get wet feet. She doesn't care, she can't wear. We have tried, we've been through the whole online bit and ordering lots of different boots, and yeah, nothing is right. So Stuck with trainers.

Mark

Trainers is like a pipe dream for me. With with Jay, his neurodivergency sort of manifested itself The kind of most keenly and most early on when it came to footwear because he was furious about the fact he couldn't get his shoes tight enough Right, so those Velco straps, you're like, it's Velcro, right? It's easy to put on, it's comfortable, right? And he couldn't handle the fact that it wouldn't, it couldn't be tight enough. And he'd be on the floor, like pulling it so tight that his foot was going like purple And he's crying because it still didn't feel like it was on properly. And it was heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to see this anxiety. I said, they're just shoes, right? And I realized that um I think it's the actual ability to adjust it was for some reason triggering for Him so when he wore wellies, never a problem because a welly is just a welly, you put your foot in it, that's it. I can't make it tighter or looser, it's just a welly, right? So he did that, and then Crocs came in And for whatever reason, crocs are like this magical thing for our games.

Steph

Yeah, see, we did have some for a while, but we did move on for them. So there you go. I'm giving you hope for them.

Mark

You moved on. I'm just like I don't really yeah I don't mind as long as you know we don't wear crocs for weddings or Funerals.

Steph

Well, we were trainers for weddings around here.

Mark

No, I don't know. We don't get invited to weddings around here, so I don't know what I'm saying.

Steph

No, both my brothers got married in the last four years, and yes, they were trainers at the wedding.

Mark

Nice.

Steph

Wedding outfits were not necessarily what you'd expect a teenage girl to wear, shall we say?

Mark

Um so like Otto will wear trainers But um but the other two, again, Crocs is their their and I think it's again because they don't have to

Steph

Change.

Mark

Don't have to change.

Steph

You said about the strap. Yeah, that's I mean, that takes me back to when Sasha was younger as well. And I think I wrote about that in the book. Actually, there was one day where where Sasha wouldn't undo the strap to try and get her pumps on. So the strap was done up too tight to actually fit her foot into the shoe. But you know, no amount of me saying, Here, let me help let me undo the strap so you can get your foot in. Well, you know, none of that helped. I mean, absolute, complete meltdown over the fact that she couldn't get her foot in these shoes that were already done up And yeah, in the end I had to carry it into the car with no shoes on and I kind of um quietly hid that pair away somewhere and took a separate like a pair of sandals to school with us that day. And luckily it was, you know, was kind of forgotten about. until the next time she wanted those pumps. But um but yeah, the straps and not, like you said, needing to be tighter or not being tight enough isn't it

Mark

I mean, Jay wants to wear Crocs to school, but I was like, I want you to at least sort of wear something more appropriate because, you know, there's You can't, they're not, you know, you have to walk to and from school. That's the relatively long distance, and Crocs may be not well suited. But then I found, I was so happy with myself. You know, when you find something, you're like I'm a genius. I found it. It's gonna work, right? And I found these trainers that are rubber, so they're kind of crock material, right? But they've got a sole like trainers, but they also have a back on it It but the back is made of like neoprene, like wetsuit material, so it keeps your foot in, but it's comfortable and it doesn't rub.

Steph

Soft, yeah.

Mark

And they also looked quite cool. I'm thinking. if I can get him to wear these. These pass as trainers, like at a glance, they were just like normal school trainers. And I tried them on. And he loved them. And I was like, oh, what's such a win. I was so happy with myself. And then he lost one of them. I was like, damn it. Damn it. So, and he was like, he wanted me to get some others. I'd spent so long trying to get them. And I found them again and I got them online and they delivered them.

Steph

On eBay.

Mark

Yeah, obviously. Yeah. So they delivered them and they came in the box and I was like. Never guess what I've found, Jay. And I opened the box, and these ones, for some reason, they lit up when so you know when you walk and they light up. Like when you're five, that's the coolest thing in the world. When you're ten or eleven. That is that is not a thing that you want. You don't want to be drawing attention to your feet at that. So he was just like, No, I was like, Oh, for God's sake. So then I found another pair Right, exactly the kind this time, because I knew that I had to look out for the non-light up ones, and I managed to find them. And then they arrived and he tried them on. He went, Yeah, they're fine. I was like Thank God, and then that was it. The next day, he put them on within seconds. He's like, No, I don't like these, they're too narrow. I was like, but I've just thrown the box away and I said, Tam, when did the when did the recycling get collected? Into it this morning, and I was like, oh no. It actually, like, literally that day. So I've got these shoes. These are the ones that are here. Look They're a thing of beauty. Look Sketchers.

Steph

They're really nice.

Mark

They're excellent shoes. I recommend them highly for children who can tolerate them. So I'm going to introduce the first ever Neuroshambles giveaway. Because I can't do anything with them. Otto's not going to wear them. India's already basically made a puke sound when I offered them to her for like four years old, four years' time So I'm going to say if anyone wants these shoes that have been worn once and then rejected by Jay, they're excellent. They're genuinely good shoes. As you can see, excellent quality. They're sketches. Sketchers, by the way, tend to make really good shoes for neurodivergent kids.

Steph

They do, and yet why is it they have like a reputation for not being trendy and not fashionable?

Mark

I don't care though. They're so comfortable.

Steph

Yeah, they really are. I like. Oh, really?

Mark

Okay, all the shoes that Otto wears, sketches. A lot of the ones that Jay wears, sketches. I don't know why. They're very soft and Neurodivergent friendly.

Steph

I don't know if that's a thing that they're aiming for, but it's funny you say that because I think sashas are as well.

Mark

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? So, anyway, for the first ever Neuroshambles giveaway, if you want to email. hello@neuroshambles.com and make the case for why your neurodivergent child might like these. I believe they're a size three you know, I will just send them to you because I don't want to see them go to waste. There's so many. You know, my house is like a graveyard of aspirational clothing Oh, maybe they'll like this. No, no, they won't. So I might as well get get someone might get some use out of them. We'll give it a go. Now, obviously. There is always, when it comes to clothing, the very thorny issue of school uniform. It is the bane of my life Have you had your own issues on the school uniform front?

Steph

Yes, interesting because we never thought Sasha would agree to wear school uniform at all. So she was diagnosed, yeah, two and a half, so before she went to reception. And the nursery that was attached to the the school there, and they wore like joggers, so a hoodie and you know, jogging bottoms. But at this point, she was literally wearing next nothing knickers at home. So we didn't think she would agree to put on a full jogging bottoms and sweatshirt not least because of the heat issue that we talked about. But we were amazed that she did because she wanted to be in school and doing what all the other children were. and she saw her sister was going to school as well. So it was kind of like she expected that she had to do it. So she somehow managed to cope with it. But the second we got in the car to come home, yeah, it was all ripped off. Yeah, and I mean, we were lucky the primary school was um polo shirts, so they were fairly soft.

Mark

Okay.

Steph

Um I don't I'm thinking she must have got yeah, she did get to the stage where she had to wear shirts, and we did Spent ages looking for the Velcro fastening ones. And they weren't as they weren't as popular back then, I think, as they are now. Different kind of variations.

Mark

Okay, yeah, yeah, that's quite interesting. I I've always struggled, even when I was at school, struggled to see the point of school uniform. You know, there are arguments, pro and cons You know, and I get that to a degree, but now I have neurodivergent kids. I'm really just like, I'm so anti-

Steph

Because it's so unfair.

Mark

You know, it's not just a neutral thing of like, you know, oh, look, everyone's wearing the same, so no one's going to judge each other on what they're wearing. I see that point, but. If it's affecting neurodivergent kids, it's a barrier to learning. And how can that be acceptable in a school?

Steph

I agree.

Mark

And other countries managed without it, so yeah, all the Scandi countries, you wouldn't find a school uniform in a Scandinavian country, and they're excellent. You know, uh like uh A big part of the decision for where Jay was going to be going to secondary school was based on their uniform policy because they it's rigid. They have a really rigid policy where they're like and and you you hear them sort of defend it as well, which is absurd, where they say, well, obviously we can't relax the rules for neurodivergent kids because if we've relaxed the rules for one child, we'd have to relax them for all of them. And I'm like Yeah, that sounds like an excellent idea. Yes. Why don't we yes, why don't we just allow kids to wear something that they're comfortable in? So that they're not fidgeting and they're not feeling restricted and they're not, you know, dysregulated when you're trying to teach them about lessons. So it actually kind of helped in a way for us to be able to get Jay into where we needed to get him into for secondary school because, you know, they're like, well, we can't, you know, we can't flex on the policy. Well I was like, well, this is in his HCP, but you have to be flexible with his clothing, his uniform. So thanks. You've now just given us a reason why we can't go to your mainstream school, which would completely frazzle him. You know, yeah, so it's actually kind of worked in our favor in a little bit of a way. But it is, yeah, it's just infuriating. Now, India's school have a policy which, when we first started, it was the same school as the boys went to. But India's there now. And they had a policy which at the time I thought was weird and kind of stupid, which was that there is a school uniform But you don't have to wear it. And I was like, what what I don't understand why? What? To make your mind up, right? Like, surely. Well, I don't understand why you would have a school uniform, but then not but now I totally get it and it's brilliant. It's been really helpful. So, you know, sometimes she might choose to wear a school uniform, but It's never been an issue with India School, which is great. Now, obviously, we're going up to the junior school, it is a bit more kind of stipulated. But again, we've navigated it before, so I'm sure we'll do it. It again. I'm all ready to challenge their policy whenever, you know, good.

Steph

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense.

Mark

That's the thing: it's like, can you tell me How I explain to my neurodivergent child why your policy makes sense. If you can explain it to me, wicked. I'm on board. I'll explain it to them and I'm sure they'll be fine with it. But I don't think you've got a very good reason. So we'll have to see. Um Tam said something really interesting recently where they said, You don't actually think about the feel of the clothes you put on, do you? And I was like, No. No, why would I? And they were just like, I don't, I can't understand how you would not, how that wouldn't affect you. It's like, I just put jeans on and a t-shirt and Just go about my business. And it's something that is so kind of crucial and fundamental to the way that they dress themselves and the way that they perceive their kind of their wardrobe. The fact that I can just stick some clothes on and crack on is genuinely baffling to them.

Steph

Yeah, I'm with them.

Mark

Are you the same as well?

Steph

Are you I'm very much yeah, it's gotta be soft.

Mark

Oh, okay. Yeah, no, it's interesting, isn't it? Oh, yeah, I don't I don't I don't give a hoop, but so I'm very lucky in that Sense, but I will definitely fight for my kids' rights to wear comfortable and be able to live. Yeah, I do get slightly baffled when I see Parents who have managed to dress their children as they wanted their children to be dressed. Do you ever have that? Do you say, How the hell did you get your child in that outfit Yeah. You see these little children like these parents, like looking immaculate.

Steph

Perfect. Oh, waistcoats for little. Waistcoat.

Mark

How on earth have you managed to get your child in a waistcoat in a three-piece suit and Doc Martin? And a flat cap, and I'm just like, what? I don't, I cannot understand for the life of me how this is even a thing. How is it even possible? Your child has got multiple layers on, they're dressed for the right weather conditions. These kids just just accept it. I think there needs to be a an uprising. These kids need to realize you don't have to put up with this shit.

Steph

I know. I was just I think our kids are more amazing for just realizing well that doesn't exactly.

Mark

Oh, come on, I want them to lead the charge. Go, come on, guys, in school. We don't have to put up with this anymore. Get your crocs out. We're going to storm the school canteen. There's never a case of just wear this. Never a case of just do anything, is it? With our lot. No, it's not. But it's yeah, that's it's never that's never a possibility of just like w this just what we're wearing, just put it on. No, no. This is why if you get your kids If you're taking your kids to any sort of special occasion or there's any expectation to dress a certain way, it's an absolute nightmare. And that's not just weddings. We kind of touched on earlier, but schools have this all the time: like it's fancy dress day, it's um, it is uh Anglo-Saxon Day. Did you have that? You actually had Anglo-Saxon Day. That's amazing. My God, where'd you get chainmail at this time of year Amazon sells everything, don't you? Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Not the sash repair, but no, exactly, exactly. But it is this um Yeah, when when they throw a curveball and they say next week it is um you know, whatever it is. Now, today, I believe, is actual World Book Day.

Steph

Yes. Yeah, I'll be honest, it never really went down well for Sasha anyway because she hates books. So there's one thing she was not going to do, and it was read a book ever. still now today. So I mean, she can read, she's perfectly capable of it. And she's learned all of her reading from Minecraft. But yeah, I know actual books were not a thing. So if you tried to ask what was her favorite book or what would she like Jessup has? No, we're not interested at all. But and then on top of that were all the sensory issues about, you know, if when she was really young, even let's say, you know, four or five, we did manage the odd Disney Princess costume For school, which again was always a bit of a surprise because they are not comfortable costumes usually. But for a short amount of time, you know, it would go on and then be ripped off. But yeah, no, as she got older there was no dressing, you know, outside of the normal to someone else's idea. No, it was never Yeah, that's it, isn't it?

Mark

It's having that sort of suggested to you.

Steph

It's like not an agenda of yeah, what you should be fitting into.

Mark

We have long since just rel like relieved ourselves of all expectations that we'd do anything to do with that.

Steph

There's a child character in every book. You can just have whatever you would normally wear.

Mark

Yeah.

Steph

That's the book for that child. I did see somebody on social media done one from Charlie in the Chocolate Factory or like put purple or blue like eye eyeshadow over the Face and the hair, and I mean, it looked amazing, but really no way you could get yeah, no way you could get near my daughter's skin with anything.

Mark

No, good God, no, my kids have never been one for face paint. Anyway, they've been really like freaked out by face paint, which I'm glad about. Because I mean, it's just a bit odd, isn't it? I don't. You're not a tiger. Stop growling at me and get in the car, Toby. Now, what we need to do, in fact, here's what I'm going to I'm going to write a book for children. And the main character is only going to wear Crocs and Wansie. Really? So whenever it's World Book Day. All neurodivergent children can just go, I'm that character. I'm just going to do that.

Steph

And then that's it. You're on to a winner there

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Now I'm going to focus on the the slightly positive side of this as well, because it does genuinely seem, I think you kind of alluded to it earlier, it seems that there are now um there are companies that are realizing that there's actually a market for s for sensory school uniform in particular. Um, so I know that Asda and Marks and Spencer's both have sensory ranges now which um which we've tried and have been amazing because they're like seamless clothing no labels um is that is that something

Steph

Yeah, so we've I mean Marks and Spencer and their seamless underwear range again, we've we've dined out on that. Not literally, obviously school uniform hasn't played a part for us much in the last six years, though. But yeah, when Fashion was younger, there were some options like the audio bit of Velcro or whatever, but but not as many as there are now.

Mark

It's good though, it's good to see that that the you know because I guess the more prevalent that it becomes, neurodiversity becomes, and the more spoken about and the more visible it is, the more these companies will realise, well, actually I can make some money because that's all they care about, really. It's not, you know, they're not doing it for the cause, they're doing it because there's a market for it. So, the more that we kind of, you know, we buy these things, the more they realize that there's a market for it, the more other options that we'll get. I also think that s some schools are more understanding about having a less rigid clothing policy Like India School, as I say, which I thought was confused at the time, but I think it's just inclusive, which is great. Yeah.

Steph

Because some kids want to wear school. Uniform. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

You know, I don't want to suppress their desire. I mean, it's a bit odd, but you create them guys. So I think I think some schools are doing that. I don't know about secondary schools. That that seems to be a bit less uh kind of flexible.

Steph

Yeah, I mean, I've heard I mean, a lot of them seem to be getting worse rather than better, which is a shame.

Mark

Yeah, because it's not very inclusive, is it? And again, you know, just anything that they do to sort of put up a barrier to learning is insane. as far as I'm concerned. But I think that there is an awareness, again, which is super important. The other positive, and again, is this something you alluded to earlier. The other fuzz is my kids don't care about expensive clothes. No.

Steph

They're not they don't care about branding.

Mark

My kids are not going to come up to me and ask me for like a 200 quid pair of trainers. It's wonderful, wonderful. I mean, to be fair, crocs are quite expensive for what you're getting. If you notice that, like, they're really expensive. I mean, it's just a bit of rubber guys But I will pay twice that if it means my kids don't argue with me to get out of the house in the morning. But it's quite nice that my kids are not They're not looking to other people for fashion and they don't want to dress like other people because of what they're seeing.

Steph

They just want to dress for practicality and comfort.

Mark

And that, there's a lot to be said for that, basically. you know, they're not gonna feel they're not gonna compare themselves to to their peers. 'Cause I think that there's a lot of that when you're when you're growing up and you know if you're neuro neurotypical you're trying to find your little place in society right in that s that that school society which is A very finely tuned ecosystem, and the pair of trainers you're wearing has a huge impact on how you're perceived by the rest of the school. It's an absolute nightmare. And my kids are not going to have that, which is. quite that's quite nice yeah and they'll find you know I I think I think they'll just find other kids dressed in the same way And go, oh, that's my tribe, actually.

Steph

Yeah, the Crocs, the Crocs and Onesie game, they're the ones that want to hang out with.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions.

Mark

Have you got any neurodiversity champions for us, Steph?

Steph

In terms of clothing.

Mark

I mean, if you've got something to do with clothing, yeah.

Steph

So I will mention a company called Sensory Smart. co. uk because they are who I first found the seamless socks through. And they explain actually there's you can have seamless or seam free. There's a difference actually. Seam free is actually there's still a join, but they're done in different Ways so they're overlocked or different or sewn flat. So there's a lot more thought goes into the clothes, and obviously, that does mean there's a bit more money Needed for that talk. But the seamless OCs have you know have got us through so many years. I don't know where I would be without them.

Mark

Yeah, that's amazing. What are they called sensory smarts?

Steph

Sensory smarts. co. up.

Mark

Okay. And do they do other not just socks, I presume there's other stuff in there?

Steph

Yes, yeah. Well, socks, tights, undergarments, um, fresh invests. Yeah, there's a range.

Mark

Great, that's fantastic. I've got a clothing one as well I wanted to mention, because I read an article about an autistic Boy called Max, who created his own design of t-shirt because he, again, he's you know got sensory processing issues and didn't like the feel of stuff, so he has created What is brilliant, right? So come for clothing. He set up a company for it. Come for clothing. And this t-shirt is called the Fidget Tea. And it is unbelievable. It's got everything for your neurodivergent knees, right? Firstly, it's super soft, um, and seamless, obviously, and no labels, you know, naturally, like ticks all them boxes. Because Max knows, right? He's neurodivergent. He's only 11. He's amazing. I think he did it when he was 10. I think he did it when he was 10. But here's the kicker: the seam has fidget poppers in it. Like, so the so he can sit in s school or whatever and just just fidget without, you know, without kind of drawing attention to himself. A little subtle bit of fidgety while you're sitting in a cinema or waiting for a bus or whatever it is. It's an absolute inspiration. Brilliant. They're with you all the time. Have you ever seen this guy interviewed?

Steph

Yes, yeah. I followed Max and his family for a while. They're great.

Mark

He's amazing. I just love to hear the way he talks. It's like, oh man, he's like, yeah, he's an inspiration. So keep that going. He is a true neurodiversity champion. Excellent work.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins

Mark

Okay on to the tiny epic wins section now. Do you have any tiny epic wins that you want To flag.

Steph

Oh, so I mean, I guess I already covered that a bit with actually managing to get Sasha into a shop and into a changing room and trying on some clothes outside of the house So, yeah, that's, I mean, it was six years ago, but yeah, that sticks in my mind.

Mark

Still dining out on that one, absolutely should as well. Yeah, I know it's not easy. So I am slightly cheating on this. One in that, what I'm going to talk about is not tiny, it's just an epic, epic win. Because I saw it's something that I've been sort of discussing throughout all the episodes of New Eye Shambles a little bit. is is uh we've been trying to find the right secondary setting for Jay because we're you know he's really struggling in school at the moment. He's you know What we kind of believe to be autistic burnout. He's getting very kind of angry about everything, and he just can't face going in. And we've got him on a reduced timetable at the moment, which again was an epic win. But that's not even what I'm talking about Out because we've got him into a specialist setting for autistic kids who are smart but just not school Shaped, you know, they just can't handle the sensory input of the school environment or the rigidity of it, or you know, everything that that encompasses. And there is a huge demand for this kind of setup. And where I live in Brighton has one.

Steph

Not in our whole county.

Mark

It's been really, really hard to try and get him in, and we've been You know, we've had to put together our case. You know what it's like, you have to forensically put together a case to go, This of all the children, this is the perfect thing for my specific child. And he got in, and not only that, we went to visit it. He went to visit it last week, and he loved Which is like, because you know, after you know what it's like, after all this, we could have visited it and he gone, nah, don't like it. I was like, fucking hell, I've got four years of having to persuade him to go in every day now But he went and he was like, oh, he really liked it. And I can't tell you how much of a weight off our mind and how much of a win that feels like. So I just wanted to share that. I feel quite. Quite emotional about it actually and Tam has you know definitely done a fantastic job there. I mean I've I've done my bit But it's been driven by Tam as most things to do with the kids' education. So, um, yeah, I'll celebrate that win. Good.

Steph

Yep.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip!

Mark

Okay, the the final section is the what the flip section of the podcast where we uh talk about any moments that have completely dumbfounded us from our neurodivergent kids.

Steph

Do you have any what the flip moments from Sasha Gosh, there probably loads. Not many that I can remember. I do remember Sasha saying once, although I can't remember if it was to me or more likely to her dad. She said, I found my people and you're not one of them. That's quite you know, quite straight down the line.

Mark

That is brilliant. That is just honest.

Steph

Okay.

Mark

Oh man, I'm going to use that on someone. Can you imagine that from the mouth of a neurotypical? That would have double impact. That is fantastic. I found my people, and you're not one of them. That is incredible. Work. I've got a couple, obviously, from Jay this week. One of them is: he said, My reactions are slower than a hornet. I was going to say a slug, but I'm definitely quicker than a slug. So there's that. Another one, and I think this is definitely a PDA thing. He was struggling to open a bag of Muesli, right? With his hands, and I'm I'm literally holding a pair of scissors watching him do it, and he's really struggling. And I hold the scissors, and I said very reasonably Do you want to use the scissors I'm holding? And he, without skipping a beat, he just shouted, Scissors are a vice. And then he just carried on. Refused to accept my help. Yeah. Scissors are a vice. Oh man. Love it. And then and ki another sort of similarly what what the flip um is that he was drawing a picture of a Pokemon. And it was very good. He lo he's he's good at drawing and he drew a picture of a Pokemon. I was like, I like that. Um, why don't you colour it in? It'll look really good if you coloured it in and he just looked at me and went, I don't like colour, it's newfangled. This newfangled thing that colour is. I don't know what he's talking about. So that is that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Now, before we finally sign off, I just wanted to mention Your book, Steph, because it is brilliant. I love it. Like, genuinely, it is an inspiration. So, for those of you who don't know, it's called PDA in the Family, and it's about Steph and Steph's neuroshambolic family's encounters with PDA, pathological demand avoidance. Obviously, you know, we've been touched by PDA in our own household, and I have listened to audiobooks. I can't read them. I don't have time to sit down and read. But I can listen to audiobooks all day long. And I listened to one of the more clinical ones, which I think you recommended actually. I can't remember what it's called.

Steph

Do you know it's the main one? Understanding pathological demand avoidance syndrome in children.

Mark

Yeah, which, which, as you know, you can imagine, is quite dry. Like, it is, it is brilliant. Like, it's really informative. But it's not really what I wanted to hear, and you wrote the thing that I want to hear, because it's it's the anecdotal evidence of It, it's the stories, it's the real kind of tangible human element of it. And I loved it, I thought it was great. So, thank you for writing that. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it?

Steph

Yes, so I mean, it covers our all our family's experiences really from when from that day of diagnosis when Sasha was just two and a half, and then all the way up until the age of about fourteen and kind of our struggles. Um some of it is about the struggles with the school system and education There's a good chapter on not finding school, but then I also look at things like sensory issues and relationships and yeah, just a whole variety of topics that have gone on in the last Several years.

Mark

And the little bonus chapter from your husband as well.

Steph

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this. Everybody keeps telling me that his chapter is the best. So I Trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

Mark

No, it was just nice to have a different perspective.

Steph

Yeah, from a male. But he only had to write one chapter. I had to write the other twelve. So he had the easy.

Mark

Do you think he's taking all the plaudits? Seems a little unfair. But I will obviously put a link to that book in the show notes. And I yeah, I highly recommend if you've got a child with PDA Or suspected PDA, have a read of that, and it's yeah, it's really informative and definitely worth getting. Right. Other than that, I think this is just my time to bang on about the socials if you're interested. We're on Instagram and Threads and Facebook and Reddit. If you have anything that you want to kind of feed back about this episode or any suggestions for topics you'd like to hear me talk about, then please feel free to email hello@neuroshambles. com. It'd be great to hear from you. The only thing that remains for me now is to say, Steph, thank you so much for your time and for coming on to the podcast To share your Euroshambolic life. Thank you to the audience for listening and have a nice life.