Special Interests | Liam Mullone

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark
Welcome back, Neuroshamblers. Thanks for coming. We've got a rammed show for you this week where we're going to be meeting another guest. And the topic of the week this week is special interests, which I've got lots to say on, as has our guest. We're also going to be towards the end looking at the usual favourites, neurodiversity champions. Tiny wins, we've got some cracking what the flip moments, and there's a new section, just this one week only, is Poetry Corner, where I won't spoil the surprise for you, but you can almost certainly guess what that is. Already. So, yeah, I'll stop witchering on and let's just smash on with it, shall we? Meet the guest So our guest for this week is Liam Mullone, who I have known quite a long time actually, and we sort of lost confidence For a while. So, hello, Liam. First of all, welcome. Hello. I know Liam because we used to do stand-up comedy together a long old time ago. Sort of back in the noughties, wasn't it? Yes, and the old queen's head. We've done we've done many, many a gig and obviously we sort of moved to totally separate parts of the country and I'm not doing stand up anymore and you're doing bits of stand up as That's right.

Liam
I'm booking gigs around here.

Mark
Okay.

Liam
But yes, I realized that if you move to Devon. There's about three gigs you can do, and you can do them once a year.

Mark
So I obviously, uh, a mutual friend of ours then mentioned that you had Kids with additional needs.

Liam
And I was like, great. Was that their actual words? Or was it, oh, you should talk to Liam Mullone? His kids are total.

Mark
No, he didn't say that because that would make him a monster.

Liam
Talk to him. His kids are insane.

Mark
Yeah, something like that. So then I reached out to you and um So and I thought we'd have a lot to talk about. And so here we are, which kind of leads us into you telling us a little bit about your setup there. How many kids have you got and what Needs have they got?

Liam
Well, I'll just start with this because before I forget all about it, apparently I I am um I am autistic myself. Um ADHD, uh, demand avoidance, all sorts of things which my wife likes to diagnose. In fact, she diagnoses me as something extra every day

Mark
But however, wait, wait, wait. Is it worth us pointing out that she is professionally qualified to diagnose you? She's not just shooting in the dark.

Liam
She is professionally di qualified to diagnose people But maybe not quite as much as she does in my case. You give her a lot of fodder, to be fair. I'm not sure that congenitally annoying is a is a proper diagnosis

Mark
No, it's not.

Liam
But uh, but yes, I realized through my uh because I have I have twins, um, okay, twin boys, now 12.

Mark
Twelve.

Liam
And they both have a certain amount of special needs. But it was f from the first one, I'll call them A and B. Uh it was through Twin A, the one that's two seconds older that I you know, 'cause people were going, Oh, he's got definite needs in this area and this and that and the other and I said, He's not doing anything I didn't do, so he must be normal and everyone said, No, that means that you're also

Mark
Taylor's oldest time. Okay. So what is Twin A is he diagnosed?

Liam
He has his EHCP, yes.

Mark
Okay. Mm-hmm. Um And what is that?

Liam
Autism? Autism, yes. Uh probably various other things, but we didn't really take it any further. Um 'cause autism isn't uh Particularly problematic. He has a lot of echolalia, so he will keep saying the same thing twice.

Mark
Right, okay.

Liam
He's very fixated on his own interests. But he and this is something I've realized through home education, he does have a whole layer underneath that he just doesn't show. unless you prize it out of him. And the other one is just anxious about everything all the time.

Mark
Why is he diagnosed? Twin B, I presume.

Liam
He's not. His is in the works It doesn't really matter anymore because we have deregistered them. So there's nothing to be gained by getting them certification.

Mark
Is your plan to get a diagnosis for twin

Liam
Or is it we are 'cause it's we might need him, you know. I can't think of anything that'll come for me except maybe he'll get an extra half an hour and an exam.

Mark
But yeah, but it I guess it it it helps contextualize him. to other people. Not for you guys, 'cause you know him and you know how to you know, how to parent him and and I've I've found from my from my lot that uh the style of parenting for one should just be applied to all of It makes it easier, you know. I mean, yeah, it's yeah, to be as clear as possible and to set expectations in advance, and you know, there's all of those different parenting strategies, low demand if possible, that can just apply to Anyone. I do it with grown-ups as well. Yes.

Liam
Yes.

Mark
And so you've also got a you've got a neurotypical as well, right?

Liam
We I have a daughter, yes, and she sorry, I make it sound like a pet. Yeah, made it sound like Tamagotchi. Yes, I press the feed button at regular intervals with the daughter and she responds Very well.

Mark
This one cleans up after herself.

Liam
No, she's a delight. She's very, very normal. And it's like she's got all the Nice things about me, and obviously she's got things about her mother as well, but who cares about that She's got the nice things about me without all the insaneness

SECTION INTRO
What's the topic of the week?

Mark
So let's crack on with the actual topic of the week because I'm quite keen to do this. The topic of this week is going to be special interest, which you've already of launched into saying that twin a uh quite has has an obsession with especially interest it's something that that I've found with mine as well um that they kind of latch onto a thing that they then become kind of obsessed about and need to Learn loads and loads about it, and then need to talk about it a lot. Is that similar to your lot?

Liam
Yes. Yes, they have to talk about it all the time.

Mark
And is it always has it always been the same one, same special interest? Or have they sort of flitted between different ones?

Liam
No, it's changed. It's always been absolutely locked on to when so when they were really young it was um It was Lightning McQueen and all the cars in the Cars series.

Mark
Right. Is that both of them?

Liam
Yes, I think both of them.

Mark
And do you think that influenced you becoming a car dealer

Liam
Uh don't think so. That's the thing, actually. I wish their special interests was cars Because there's uh there's um an autistic kid who's 18 down the road, yeah, and he's he's obsessed with cars And so I hired him to like change wheels and change tires and do underspray for me so I could you know help him out a bit. And like he was pa 'cause I bought this stupid car. I bought this Nissan Skyline, um, which is like the crown jewels of Japanese cars, Japanese import But mine have seen so many cars at this point, they don't give a shit. They just could not care less. Their car blindness. But then I out of the blue, I got a call from the guy. the kid down the road is like, You've got a skyline. Can I come and see it?

Mark
Can I rev the engine?

Liam
Can I look at the engine? Can I breathe in the exhaust pipe? And like, yeah, come round any time. You did say he was eighteen, didn't you? Yeah. His voice has not broken yet. He had a flutter of childish um abandon when he He was like, Oh, can I come and uh touch the skyline? Yes, please do, 'cause my kids don't give a fuck

Mark
So uh so ear early days it was it was Lightning McQueen and the Cars movie, and they they both latched onto the same one.

Liam
They yeah, they were both in the Lightning McQueen and uh Twin B was always into the peripheral characters, like I want to find a really obscure character that's my charact And Twin A was like, I'm just into Lightning and Queen. And they wanted to just, and it, because it's, I think, there's a strong urge to collect and acquire. with autistic kids.

Mark
Yes.

Liam
And so they wanted to so they're they're just a dream for, you know, the manufacturing industry that goes along any Disney Pixar production. Where they they've brought out five hundred different, you know, um diecast cars and they just have to have all of them

Mark
Yeah. They are a merch magnet, aren't they?

Liam
And it was the same later on a friend introduced them. To Thomas the Tank engine, and they were like, Oh my god, and there's so many bloody engines.

Mark
There are, they're just cranking them out now, aren't they?

Liam
So many, there's like 300 of the fuckers, and it's like

Mark
So that was the next was that the next special interest?

Liam
Yeah, but that that's what led into the whole YouTubing because uh Twin A saw a um a YouTube of somebody just getting their collection of uh engines and just naming them all. And it went on for about two hours. It was like, and this is Claribel and this is Rosalind. This is Spencer, and this is Dark Spencer.

Mark
There is not a dark green Spencer.

Liam
There is. If ever there's an episode where one of them gets covered in honey or something, there's like, this is honey spencer.

Mark
I thought it was like Dark Brandon or something.

Liam
Oh, like the um you know, the evil the evil opposite. There probably is now. There's probably a sort of Thomas into the cyberverse where they mix his evil yeah. Anyway, he wants to yeah, but he was like, I've got more engin Than him, I want to do a film like that. So his first YouTube was him pointing out all his engines, and it's we've never looked back, he's obsessed with YouTube.

Mark
And it's not, he says he moved on from the tank engines now.

Liam
Yes, he's now into um murder drones.

Mark
Hang on, you're gonna have to back up there a little bit. Explain murder drones to me

Liam
Murder yeah, I thought, God, murder drones wasn't so I looked into it most I watched an episode. It is just a kid's cartoon.

Mark
Okay, not actual like assault drones.

Liam
It's about these robots who were like uh you know, they were created by humans and they were made to uh terraform a planet, but then the humans cracked the planet open or something. They did something wrong and they killed all the humans So now there's only the robots left. So the robots have formed their own society.

Mark
So this is a series about Murder Jones and he's

Liam
And they're like, well, we can't reclaim this planet now that the robots have got it, so let's send these drones to kill them off.

Mark
Are there lots of different types of drone and lots of different kinds of

Liam
sort of nuances there's all different characters and he has spent every penny he gets he uh is because like the the original characters he has to find on eBay and and they have to get sent from it's not such a big thing that, you know, there's factories in China churning them out yet, like there is with all their Mario characters that they're also into. But so he has to order them like originals from America and pay masses of postage and and customs and everything. So he's paying like forty six pound a time for a plushie So it's like, you know, he'll get some birthday money or he'll do some jobs and he'll finally get enough cash and then he just goes on a

Mark
Murder drone spree. It's quite interesting how intensely these special interests kind of manifest itself. Which I've so so Jay's first ever special interest. Really was Pokemon. I don't know if you've ever been into Pokémon, but Pokémon is just like absolutely geared up for Autistics. The guy who invented Pokemon is Autistic. So all of those little details in this kind of the the incredibly there's like thousands upon thousands of different Types of Pokémon and different evolves, and there's different islands and different folklores, and it's really, really involved. And obviously, I kind of first looked at it. Thought there was a few of them, and and Jay just got so into it. We bought him the the Pokémon Encyclopedia, and he just memorized the whole lot. Like, it's incredible his memory for all of This kind of stuff is incredible, and he got really into it. And he was really, um, he really enjoyed that kind of thing. And then, quite, quite suddenly, he's just sort of went, nah, it's not what I'm into anymore.

Liam
Yeah.

Mark
So Greek mythology became his kind of his new obsession and he got really into that and learning about it and memorizing uh all of the different Greek gods and all of the stories around the Greek gods in Incredible detail, and Demeter is his favorite Greek god, he got very obsessed with that.

Liam
Demeter.

Mark
Yes.

Liam
Is that the god of the harvest?

Mark
The wellsp well done, yeah. You you know your classics So yeah, he yeah, for some reason he he loved uh Demeter and that's a strange one for a boy to go for. Well, you know, yeah, he's he's not the most conventional character So he was loving the Greek mythology, and so we thought, and he decided that he wanted. to to visit Greece on holiday. That was like that became an obsession. So we just did that this year. It was like, fine. Yeah. I mean, it would have been worse if he'd have said, I'm really obsessed with Birmingham.

Liam
We'd have to go there on a holiday.

Mark
So at least it was someone who's like, Yeah, I could definitely stumble.

Liam
I'm obsessed with hookers. Can we go to Amsterdam? So, um, yeah, that is that is a concern of mine, is that one day one of

Mark
You know what? If his special interest is something really sordid, yeah, I don't want to. Let's not go there.

Liam
Well, it will be. That's just called adolescence.

Mark
Yeah, it's true. So we went we went to Greece on holiday because of Jay's obsession. But the thing is, you sort of, you know, it's like, oh, well, let's let's look at the birthplace of Zeus. It's just a field Like, there's nothing there. Do you know what I mean? It's just a field. Because we were in Crete and apparently Zeus was born there. So it wasn't anything really tangible that we could go to. So.

Liam
Also, Greece I mean Greece I I I love Greece dearly, but Greece being Greece, you'll be like, and this is the birthplace of Zeus and it's full of discarded building

Mark
equipment and a half a bag of concrete and some it was one of Hephaisus's originals

Liam
And there's some villas that haven't got roofs on because they don't have to pay tax on them until they're finished. No, that's why you make it up.

Mark
You just say that Zeus set forth a thunderbolts Because he was cross that they wouldn't donate a cow. Yeah, I mean, in terms of special interests, from Jay's perspective, Greece was pretty. uh palatable. Pokemon, uh was it it got a little bit obsessive when he started to identify too mu with the characters. So there were a couple of times where it when he was feeling dysregulated He would identify as the characters to sort of regulate himself, I guess. So there was a time at school where people were picking on him. And he basically curled into a ball, and I think he was being bulbasaur or something to try and protect himself. So he was imagining that he was there, which is, you know, sort of heartbreaking to think of him Dealing with light bullying by curling into a ball and hoping that that would resolve the issue because you're just pouring patchola on that fire, aren't you? And he tried to do, yeah, he He was sort of uh role playing a bit as a Pokemon. This is very early on in in his school career. Um, and there was also the time where he actually one of the first times we we realized that there was s something other going on, um, something neuro different about him, was when he met uh someone like a friend a friend's kid, and we're like Like, you're the same age, you'll get on, right? Um, and he obviously didn't know how to How to behave and how to handle this. So he basically crouched down and pretended to be a Pokemon.

Liam
Right.

Mark
And was sort of running running around on all fours. And it was like, I see, this is There's something else going on here, isn't there? This is not your typical reaction to a new playmate. As this kid's just stood there going, Who the fuck is this? What do you mean? Who the fuck is this? It's Bulbasaur, right? Come on, dude. Keep up. What's quite interesting is how much of their special interest. You end up kind of picking up, right? And subsuming. Well, certainly, from my perspective, I've got much more in-depth knowledge of Greek mythology now My knowledge of Pokemon is way above what it should be in any healthy adult. And do you find the same with murder trends?

Liam
Um yeah, I probably well not really because I kind of he's old enough to do his own thing and I doesn't need my input anymore Whereas before, when it was like let's watch that Thomas film for the five hundredth time, it was like okay That's going to be on in the background. I am going to absorb it whether I like it or not. Whereas now it's just him on his computer.

Mark
I like to think that there will be one day we'll be sat in a pub quiz and the specialist specialist round will be like on Pokemon or on Thomas the Tank Engine or on Greek mythology and be like stand back guys, I got this. So one of the one of the joys, I think, of Having children with special interests. I don't know if you've encountered this, is when they meet someone with the same special interest. Because Jay, again, in particular, finds it so difficult. to kind of um he finds communication very difficult. He finds socialization very, very difficult. So there is there are occasions where he'll meet someone with a similar special Interest and they'll just connect. And this happened relatively recently where Jay, we went to an event, and Jay met someone else who is massively into Greek mythology. And it was just a joy. They just lit up, and they both just started talking to each other. And it was so lovely. They were like. firing like obscure questions at each other and answering it and then when one would answer that, they'd sort of be be sort of giving a little nod of approval because they knew something really obscure. shout out to Ash, who is the other person that is obsessed with Greek mythology. Because what was really lovely is that I then I I overheard Ash saying, Oh yeah, this kid's really cool. It's like I've never heard that said about Jay in my life. So it was really lovely to hear that. Yeah, so that that that's always quite nice. It's very rare, obviously. And it's much more often that I will be cringing as he's firing questions At some poor kid about what Hephaestus's inventions were. But when it works, it's really lovely to hear.

Liam
Yes.

Mark
Anything Otto sorry, come on.

Liam
Well, I was just going to say, uh, not so long ago, uh, Twin A went to a Comic Con and he wasn't sure what to expect from it because he hadn't been to one for since he was four, I think. Um but then he met uh he met a girl who was uh having the same kind of problems he was at school. And she was dressed as a murder drone. And it was like, Oh my god And yeah, they were incredible.

Mark
Oh, amazing.

Liam
Oh god, I could have 'Cause my mine don't really like dressing up 'cause they're like, I'm not being me, I'm being what am I right now? Um, but he was like, Oh, I could have come as a murder drone, I'll come as a murder drone next time And it just made it um it opened up a whole world, I think, that he could.

Mark
That's amazing.

Liam
It's not permanent if you dress as something.

Mark
Did you go with him? I wasn't there. No, this is reported back to me by his mother. That is hilarious, though. I can imagine him seeing them across the hall and going, oh my god. Yeah, that sounds amazing. That's twin D and Twin B has a special interest as well, doesn't he?

Liam
Yes, and he's um oh, di this week he he's made a friend. He's made a friend at, um 'cause they go part of their home ed is going to parkour class.

Mark
Oh, wow.

Liam
Just jumped from one thing to another, and he met a girl there who's very much like him, just got all the same kind of anxieties, and just come out of school, same as he Has so he just really looks forward to seeing her, um, and yeah. But his special interest is roller coaster And he hasn't met another kid yet who's obsessed with roller coasters, but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there Is that is this just sort of learning about them or is this actually going oh, he will just uh this uh there's a there's one theme park in Devon, and it's called Creeley Adventure Park And it's pretty bloody tame, right? And it's got a roller coaster that's the most confused roller coaster because it used to be called um It had a Spanish name that didn't even mean anything, and it translated to the crazy, the crazy pill. So, what does that even mean? The crazy pill. But they did it they did the whole thing in hacienda style. And then somebody thought, well, that's not very relevant to Devon. So they turned it into like a Roman themed roller coaster. Because then they could kind of keep the hacienda style, villa style, it kind of worked. But they nobody thought, hang on, the Romans didn't have trains, did they? So the whole thing is just mad, it doesn't make any sense. And every time I say just that roller coaster, mate, it doesn't make any sense. Make any sense and they'll go on, yes. Well, you say that, but it's interesting because blah blah blah blah blah. Every time they change something at Creeley Adventure Park he is aware. Like if they if they change the font that they're using on their signposts, he wants to talk about that.

Mark
So in terms of the the the the roller coaster special interest, I presume that Creeley was the gateway coaster. Yeah. Has that sort of blossomed into just a wider appreciation for coasters?

Liam
Well, what's quite nice is he's absolutely determined that when he leaves Education. He's going to work his way up to being the manager of Creeley. So he hasn't set his sights too high. He hasn't imagined himself running Alton Towers or, you know. Chessington World of Adventures. It's just Creeley. If he ever gets an interview for Creeley, he's going to just do their head in because he's going to know far more about Creeley than they do.

Mark
So so does this interest kind of you know, is he interested in the mechanics of roller coasters and how they're built? um and that kind of thing.

Liam
Yeah, he's interested in the names, like that's a double inversion and that's a triple flanged uh metal

Mark
With wood struts and you know that sort of thing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and and you know, what I have found certainly from my own interactions with with kids with special interests is that he just needs to talk about it He just has to get it out. This is what happens with Jay in particular: is that he's waiting for me to stop talking. So he can then talk about his thing. So I already know when he's not listening to what I'm saying because he's thinking about what he needs to tell me And he'll just then launch into it. Very often he'll just interrupt me and be like, Look, Jay, I'm just asking you about your homework. I know that that's not your priority right now. But can we focus on that? And then you can talk at me about what you're talking about. Oh, God, yeah.

Liam
Twin beer is like, you know, we're trying to get him to bed, and he's been talking non-stop for three quarters of an hour. And we're like, okay, that's great. Can you go to bed now? He's like, Can I just tell you one more thing? And they'll say, Okay, just one more thing. And then when he's got that, he'll be like, Okay, two more things. No, one more thing. No.

Mark
I know, but and they want to share, and it's very sweet. And I get it, but he knows he's told us five times before.

Liam
He knows we're not taking it in. He knows our interest in it is

Mark
Minimal to say the least, but it's like maybe maybe the fact you're taking it in is why he's insisting on telling you again. If you showed some bloody interest, Liam, maybe he wouldn't be repeating himself. The absolute pinnacle of special interest happened last school year when Jay's class did a whole term on Greek mythology. Oh wow. It was like yes, glory days 'cause 'cause Jay was absolutely the so he was like you can just uh go and have a fag in the staff room if you

Liam
I've got this.

Mark
The teacher was basically saying he's been really helpful because he's been correcting me throughout class. It's like, yeah, I can bet it because he just like launches into it. But he was so engaged with that. And it was really nice. Obviously, he's engaged because he's got a Special interest in it, so he was really like all of the homework to do with that he did without any complaints at all. And he'd be doing extra stuff, so that was really lovely. Um, that was really nice. Whereas, um, you know, his latest obsession Is with Zelda, the Switch open world game on the Switch, which He's really obsessed about, and again, he has to just talk at me about now, kind of selfishly, that's quite a fun thing. For him to be obsessed by, because I quite like South here as well. I pretended to kind of get into it just because it was important for me to know what he was Interested in, but really, I kind of wanted to play it. And I'll be honest, that Zelda and the world of Zelda and his special interest in Zelda has massively helped our relationship Okay. Because, you know, because he he more from my he more from his perception of me, because I know about Zelda, because I've played it now So that we have something to discuss, he actually sees me as having value. So he sees me as having some sense of worth because I know things in Zelda. Whereas like anything else that I've got to offer in the world is is trivial. He's not interested in that. So he will ask me things about Zelda and He'll be really itching to share things, and that's really lovely that he'll come and seek me out because generally he doesn't really pay me that much attention around the hou Unless he really wants to talk. And I can tell when he needs to get something off his chest because he kind of starts kind of fidgeting and then trying to find some time to talk to Me and we've had to ban him talking about Zelda in front of the other two because they're just like, Oh, I'm so bored of Zelda.

Liam
Stop talking about it. Yeah, no, we have to ban Twin B talking about theme park. On long car journeys because it just becomes, you just want to drive into oncoming traffic after a while.

Mark
Have you tried sort of saying, okay, we can talk about it, you've got a minute. That works for you.

Liam
But he would never accept a minute. I can't do it in a minute.

Mark
Okay. Well, then, you know, you could give him a minute and a half or whatever. But. it's that that works quite well with Jay. I've always found as well, um and again, particularly with Zelda, but with other things as well, there have been times where I've been able to use that in my favor enormously. Um because, for example, if he's dysregulated, which happens a lot if we're in public and he's getting Particularly frustrated about something, particularly if we're in a queue for something, because he's a terrible queuer. He can't stand being in queues and he just like fidgets and he gets really anxious. Not anxious, he just gets angry And I find that if I start talking to him about Zelda, all of that melts away. He'll just like forget where he is. He'll just Zone in on this, and we can have this really intense discussion about something to do with Zelda and about, you know, a silver bakoblin camp near Hattano Village or something. And he will just be transported into that, and it will totally Regulate him. And that's so I've I've used that to my benefit a lot of times. Um yes. When we were driving in Greece And we were going to somewhere, it was like two hours away, and he's not great in long car journeys, he gets really frustrated. But then I remembered But on my phone, I've got Mythos, which is the Stephen Fry narrating his kind of telling of Greek mythology. It's 15 hours. I was like, we're quids in here. This is going to be easy. Because he just listened to that and he was absolutely fine. So I think I find that useful. I don't know if you find a a kind of a similar use to that Intense special interests.

Liam
Yeah, well, I certainly won't be able to buy a CD of someone talking about roller coasters or murder drones for 15 minutes.

Mark
It was crazy.

Liam
They do quite like that generally.

Mark
What what I'm quite interested in as well is um is sometimes he'll he'll because Again, Jay will have no appreciation for the fact that I don't have time to talk about something at that moment. I could be, you know, like, and It's very often when I'm cooking Sunday dinner and I've got I've got like the like, you know, Sunday dinner is a very involved process. There's lots of different moving parts and I'm trying to coordinate it. Right about then he decides he wants to talk at me about Zelda or something. Yeah. And I have actually said while he's talking, I've actually said, I cannot listen to you right now. Now, please stop talking. And then he carries on. And I'm like, please stop talking. Please stop talking. Please stop talking. And then once he went, I don't need you to listen, I just need to say it. I was like, Oh, fine, in which case crack on It's just like having Radio 4 in the background.

Liam
Yes. Mine wants to start a very involved conversation just as I'm trying to back out the dr

Mark
And we've gotta concentrate.

Liam
We've got the most difficult drive because it was made for a horse and car and it's really bloody narrow. And you can't and it's quite a busy road outside and you can't see it. And if you if you've got a car that's got no back camera, it's particularly difficult um and that is the exact point where twin bee especially will go dad you know the uh sooty's magic bus at Creeley Yeah, not right now. Not right now, son. The the the mistake I make is trying to engage and thinking, oh, I I know a bit about this going Oh, is that a bit like so-and-so? And then they'll go, No, what that was was and then you've got another two hours.

Mark
Yeah, yeah, I've had that before. No, I but I get it that the response is like, I'm a fucking idiot. You felt like, you know, really, do you genuinely believe that that was a Gorgon? You

Liam
Yeah, I don't mind if they think I'm an idiot. It's just the fact that I've given them yet another jumping off point that they would have all the whereas otherwise they would have just come to a natural finish and left the room

Mark
That's a common misconception about Coaster's Daddy, and I'm going to now regale you with other tales. Now, Otto has now started. Having his own special interest, and that's quite interesting because it's a different, he's doing it for a different reason, I think. So, his special interest at the moment is football. He's got obsessed with football. He's never shown any interest in football at all. Now, I'm a big football fan. I've been a football fan all my life. Like, my whole family is surrounded by it. it so um in a in a way that's my special interest and he's encroaching on it and um he wants to talk to me about football all the time and I think the reason that he does that I think he's he's very socially aware of And he's very aware that he wants to fit in. And I think at school, a lot of kids talk about football. So he, I think, has latched onto this and gone, if I have that as my special interest, I will always have a group of people to play with at lunch time. I'll have stuff that I can talk to them about Without having to really know the rules of social interaction. So it's actually quite smart, I think.

Liam
Yes, yes.

Mark
So he is now obsessed with it and he wants to watch Match of the Day. over and over again. Right. And he want he wants to and he he fires questions at me about like, did you how do you know the Fulham score? It's like I don't really care about No, I mean they do, but it's not really anything to talk about.

Liam
But he just tells them you don't need to know what happened in the game. You just Need to know the tropes, you just need to go in a skill and say, Oh, the whole back line collapsed, didn't it? And someone will go, Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. What were they doing up front? There was no communication.

Mark
The detail genuinely is important to him, though. It's quite interesting that he is like, you know, he's becoming. A football fan, and I like I watch it. Like, me and football, it's a bit of a kind of a guilty pleasure in my house Is that I have to go and take the iPad and squirrel myself away from everyone else if I want to watch a game. And now he started finding me and watching the game with me and then just firing loads of questions. And especially if my team aren't doing very well, I'm not that amenable to listening to these questions. So I get a little bit. I get a bit frustrated.

Liam
Why is your team shit, Dad?

Mark
Yeah, exactly. I think I'm going to be an Arsenal fan, Daddy. Don't do that. I mean, like, for a number of reasons, but don't like, we're in Brighton. Brighton are actually doing well for like the first time in well, pretty much ever. So be a Brighton fan. But anyway, that's not you know, at least he's showing an interest, and that's good. And I'm actually quite I'm quite pleased that he's got that social crutch that he can use. I think it's important to him, and I think it will become increasingly important To him over time, because I've started to suspect that you know that that's how a lot of adult males basically communicate socially Yeah. By having this intense special interest in something. Like I can go and I could have an entire conversation with someone. About football for a whole evening and never know their name and never know anything about them and get on really well with them. It's like, yeah, we've just filled time there, we've done conversation, haven't we

Liam
Yeah, I couldn't do that.

Mark
No, but you I mean you you probably have other things you could probably talk cars, for example. and other people could do that. So I think we all as humans need this sort of something that we could that that sort of makes social interaction easier And the problem is with some of Jay's special interests, and sounds like Twin B's special interests, they're too niche to be of any value in real life. Unless you you s strike that magic moment where they meet someone else and, you know, well, Twin B it does genuinely want to

Liam
You know, work in a theme park, and he wants, and there is a course now in theme park management. Uh, because, of course, there is a course in everything, yeah. So he does kind of have a direction. Whereas murder drones, no but but he but at the same time, Twin A is doing you know, he's he's worked out for himself the rules of uh building an online audience Yeah, and he's been doing it since he was eight.

Mark
Which is super impressive. Yeah. He just needs to hold fire until he's legit and then he's going to take off. That's like. Yeah, that is that is genuinely impressive.

Liam
And he's it's quite funny because he's got, you know, he's in he sets up a buy me a coffee thing. And so he he's he actually made enough money. He made like thirty quid one week. So we were like, Can you do your jobs for your pocket money, twin B? And he was like sorry, twin A, he is. And he was like, I don't need to, I've got enough cash. So I was like, you still have to do your bloody jobs. I could buy you, Daddy. Get in that in your bedroom and hoover, Jeff Bezos.

Mark
Is there anything else you want to add about a special interest before we move on to the well I was just going to talk about the kid down the road because I sort of he sort of gave me hope because he

Liam
It's very socially awkward. And you can't, you, I mean, you can do you can do jokes with my kids. They really get jokes, especially jokes that are that are silly or that are based on being annoying or or or or repetition. I mean, they really get that and it it's it that they're great to have around to if we're doing something funn But the kid down the road is more sort of classically what you think of, sort of kind of Sheldon Cooper autistic, and he right, yeah, yeah, he doesn't get jokes at all. I mean, it just okay, okay. It's like firing ping pong balls at a tank. It's there's no point. He's impervious to humour. Yes. But because he's obsess he's you know, he's really into mechanics. So it's like you can see how useful that is. It's like he can change tires, he can You know, he can get a car on its ramps, he can take the exhaust system off, he can change the yeah.

Mark
Well, that's that's kind of where I'm hoping that their sort of obsession with special interest. Kind of takes them then because it doesn't, not just from a social perspective, which has a value, but also from a career perspective If there's some like, because I know that, particularly with Jay, if there's something he's interested in, he will throw himself into it, he will do everything he can. Can to immerse himself in it and learn about it. And if he can get into a career that involves that, then he's going to be absolutely flying.

Liam
Yes.

Mark
Yeah. I just don't know how we do that. I mean, he wants to be a blacksmith.

Liam
I'm not sure. Well, it sounds like he's going to have to be an academic, isn't it? Because then he can just You know, you learn basically what academia is, isn't it? You unload your learning onto other people, and then you go on a sabbatical where all you're doing is filling your head with more stuff.

Mark
At the university's expense. Do you think that academia is just littered with autistics? You've basically found a special interest like, well, what am I going to do with this?

Liam
I'm just going to talk about quite a few autist I know that for a few years.

Mark
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's, you know, like, what do you want to do every day? I just want to talk about the same thing. I just want to learn more about that same thing and then talk about that thing to other people And then read things that other people have written about the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

Liam
The only problem comes when they have to read other people's take on all this stuff that you know everything about and not just be completely scathing. Very often they are.

Mark
With my experience of university at least. Yeah.

SECTION INTRO
It's not all rubbish.

Mark
So, this next section of the show is the it's not all rubbish bit where we look at some of the more positive aspects. of parenting neurodivergent kids. So the first one I wanted to introduce was neurodiversity champions. Liam, have you got anyone that you wish to kind of nominate as a neurodiversity champion?

Liam
Yeah, so we went to Simply Great Media down the road, which has just become a public interest company, but they've only just started and it was like Can we afford to send them here to learn stuff? And as soon as they walked through the door, they were like, Oh, wow, this is like paradise.

Mark
There's people so what is it?

Liam
Well, it's It's kind of like a learning centre for I don't think it's full neurodivergent kids, but a lot of neurodivergent virgin kids were in there And they were actually creating apps.

Mark
I mean, actually, you know, it was like hands-on learning.

Liam
Yeah. And they were actually. you know, doing the coding, doing the whole thing, then seeing how it worked. And one of them was making an an app where you had to roll a marble through a maze of hazard And it was a gyroscopic control. So he was trying to get the gyroscopic control right so that you could move the marble in the right way and they were absolutely f fascinated. But he took us into this room which was just he had sort of half repaired computers all in benches all around the room and it had been absolutely pissing it down out. So they were soaking wet. So they were just staring, leaning over all these wide-open computers, dripping water into the into the electronics. And we're like, no, stay away And then we tried to get them to sit on these swivel seats and they were just like throwing themselves around the room just like uh because the chairs had wheels and it was like, Oh, God, no And it was just like But he wasn't phased at all. That's why we thought that was a great place, because he just wasn't bothered.

Mark
Oh, so he's totally not bothered.

Liam
And we he in the end, he said, I think you'd better go for your dad explode But he puts them.

Mark
Oh, right, so you were the problem. Yeah, not them.

Liam
I was exponing on his behalf because I thought, you know, sometimes you think, I don't want to come across as one of those parents who are just oblivious to their children being arseholes.

Mark
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam
So you think I'm going to have a go at them and then people will see that I am suffering and that I am on you know I do appreciate that this isn't right. You went too far the other way. Well, I just wondered how many thousands of pounds worth of electronics they were destroying by just, you know Leaning on them with their songs. But they were like, oh, there's a there's a dreamcast from 1983, and you know, I don't know, probably getting the year wrong. Um, they would correct me on that, but they had all this antique legacy soft um hardware, which they were totally into. So he was quite impressed that they knew what everything was.

Mark
And that sounds great.

Liam
You know, that's a joystick that worked on this system And uh he was like, Yeah, you're right. Um so he was great. So they become a public uh public something company. I don't know, so they've got funding, which means that I think I can afford to send my kids there.

Mark
Which is just the leader of heaven. Great. All right. Well, what I'm going to do for all of these neurodiversity champions is I'm going to put them in the show notes against a podcast so other people can Look at them and go and drip in their computers. Yes.

SECTION INTRO
Tiny wins.

Mark
The next section I want to talk about is tiny wins and whether you have any tiny I guess call it tiny winds. I think I need a new name for it. Because they're not tiny wins in our world. I think in a neurotoviga world, something that is seen as like a little win. But actually, in our setup, it's a major victory. And I like to kind of celebrate those wherever possible. Have you got any tiny wins you want to share with us?

Liam
Yeah, well, the yes. This is only the second week that I've been teaching them and I've been deciding that I'm not gonna like I'm not gonna sit down and do right we're doing history or right we're doing English We're going to read two books at the same time, and we're going to find themes that overlap, and we're going to go wherever that takes us And so it's been very freeform. Like today, we were talking about the Aztecs and Well, we started on Warship Down, but it led to the Aztecs, it led to the Tower of Babel, the creation myth. Yeah, it went to all sorts of places. But it was interesting because I mean my kids can't sit still. Sometimes, but I've realized, and this is quite a win because I realized because today they wouldn't stay in the seats and they were jumping up and down and they were running around. And I was like, Oh, for God's sake, sit in your seats, I'm trying to teach you. But then I realized That they do that in two situations. They do it when they're bored, but they also do it when they're excited. And in this case, they were actually doing it because they were really excited about what we were talking about And they wanted to make a point by expressing themselves and running around the table.

Mark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's fantastic. Yeah, so you've got an instant feedback on what you're saying.

Liam
Yes, and it was getting quite animated because I was just pushing this point with Twin Bee and I was saying, Yeah, but why is something Against the law because it's wrong, but who says it's wrong? Because the law does, but where does the law come from? And it was like, I. even if by um sheer repetition we're gonna and even if we never get there, even if we do just go around in circles, then at least he's had the experience of Being put on a spot and being asked, like, you, you need to, you need to drill into this, you need to find out what your reason is. And Twin Juan had lots of ideas, and he was saying, But surely you can see. He couldn't see why Twin Two couldn't see it. And he was going, But surely you can see this, and surely you can see that. And he was going, No, it's just stupid. He kept saying it was stupid. So we've got this defence mechanism of it's just stupid. It is the law, and that's it. And and so we I made them do homework on why why should I not be allowed to just stab uh Twin Bee for fun.

Mark
Which I don't think you'll find on many curriculums.

Liam
Well, exactly. And yesterday we talked about the British Empire, which is on no curricul It's like, and that's an interesting thing to talk about, isn't it? Because we used to own a quarter of the world, and no one ever talks about it at school Why do you think that is?

Mark
Yeah, well, not our schools, anyway.

Liam
No.

Mark
Are you taking some missions for your homeschool, Lee? Because I fancy chopping in. Sounds great. Our tiny win was that Otto uh hi had Had a tooth come out and he managed to completely conquer his anxiety about the tooth fairy Right. Because previously the tooth fairy freaked him the fuck out. And why not?

Liam
Why wouldn't he?

Mark
What's he doing with those teeth? That was literally that question What is the tooth fairy do? What do they do with them? I don't know. I don't know, Otto. So there was a lot like he wasn't able to sleep very easily previously. Because he want it, I think part of him wanted to to catch the Tooth Fairy, and part of him didn't want to fall asleep for the fear of what the Tooth Fairy might do. It was also, I think, linked to the fact that I assisted with him removing his tooth last time, and I probably shouldn't have done Because you know, it was like it's wobbly, it was just hanging off. I could like see it hanging off. It's like, I'll just pull it. Yeah, and that has It was a bit more firmly attached to the name Ten.

Liam
No, no, you don't do that. Just give him a bag of toffees.

Mark
Yeah, yeah, I should have done that though. But so that sort of traumatised him as well. And I think he's sort of linked that all with the tooth theory. But this time round, he lost his tooth, it came out, he was delighted, and he was it was absolutely Like hassle-free, the two-fairy did not cause him any anxiety, and I'm taking that as a tiny win.

SECTION INTRO
What the flip?

Mark
Well, I've had a couple of what the flip moments this In the past few weeks. One is Jay has got a new favorite word. And he walked in and he proudly announced, he said, My favorite word is hubris. Hubris And he went, okay. Yeah. I was like, do you know what it means, Jay? And he went, yep, it means excessive pride or self-confidence. I was like, very good, very good. And then he went, do you think you might sometimes be guilty of hub? Bris Jay, and without a beat, he just looked at me and how dare you? I am just excellent at everything, right? Yes, it's like, okay. So that was pleasant Another what the flip moment was Jay is very particular about the type of crisps that he will or about food. We have to sort of very gently try him on new stuff to see if it'll Stick, uh, and I put some new crisps in his lunch box. Uh, and uh, he came back from school, and I went, How are the new crisps, Jay? And he went They taste like cheese dust in the future when all proper food resources have gone. Right. That's a no, then, is it? Okay.

Liam
You're giving him soy and green.

Mark
Yeah, so that was uh that was that was a no. Yeah, and the the only other one was uh we went to a playground. This is before Uh, this was on a weekend. We went to a playground, just me, Jay and Otto. And um, I made the mistake of doing that thing. You know, when they're really little and you want to go and they don't want to go, it's like, Come on, we're going, come on, let's just go And I gave him all of the, you know, the usual buildup. I was like, 10 minutes, we're going to go, five minutes, and we're going to go. Okay, after this game you're doing, then we're going to go And he was just refusing to go. And then I made the mistake of doing that thing that you do with toddlers, where you go, Well, I'm just going to go then and leave you here And that is the worst thing you can do to Jay 'cause he's like, Sweets, I am going to live in the playground. He could see he was already planning it. He was like, okay, so I'm going to live. He'd already got it worked out. He was going to live in the tunnel because it was like protected from the rain and the wind. And he was gonna like start a vegetable patch over like by the little trees there. And he basically planned it all out. He he was gonna live in the playground, like stig of the sand pit. So I had to literally just pick him up and carry him out, and he found that funny, so it was okay. Now, one of the other things I want to do, we've got Poetry Corner coming up. That's going to be the final thing that we Do. But before I do that, I always like to ask my guests to tell me the best thing about Their kids, because we spend so much time not moaning about them, but sort of focusing on the challenges that they have. I want to kind of spend a little bit of time just looking at what the best thing about Your kids is?

Liam
It's hard to think of something, but not because there isn't anything, because there's just lots of things. I mean, they are, you know, they're faultlessly polite. They are very sort of endearing, um, you know they It doesn't matter who comes around the house. They just want to they're sort of like a dog when the when the when the when the bell goes and they're like, Who's this? Who's this? It's someone great, it's bound to be someone great. They're kind of like that. Whoever comes around, they just want to talk their era. And when you just get a sudden blast of it and You're like, oh my god, they're very friendly. And no, I really love that because I was never, they're like me in many ways, but I was never like that. I was like, oh God, there's a strange person in the house.

Mark
I must so they're super super sociable.

Liam
Absolutely, yes. Whether the other person is into it or not, it's like I've never met you before. Here's a let me unload this. Ton of info onto you.

Mark
Nice. That sounds good.

Liam
I remember once, because he'd just done a gig for me. Do you know John Robertson The comedian came round and they just got out of bed to see who it was. And it just so happened he knows all about the early days of Sonic and Mario and who worked on the first games and you know which studio in Japan did the Music and and they were just like, Wow, can you stay here forever? Is he staying overnight, Dad? No, he's got to go catch a bus. Oh, can he stay though? And it was like, oh my god. Oh, that's lovely, though.

SECTION INTRO
Poetry corner.

Mark
Okay, the last section of the show is called Poetry Corner for reasons that are very obvious, I would imagine. I've written a poem. Uh, I will do that sometimes, occasionally, when the muse strikes me, I'll choose to write a poem and then I'll share it on this podcast, if you'll indulge me. Um this poem is about special interests purely because um I had a Particularly trying session of being spoken at by my child, and I decided to write something down about it. So, that is what this is. So, this is my poem about special interests. Through my dealings with Autistics, there's one thing that I have learned: is that they can't conceal their feelings, at least where my kid is concerned. And sometimes I will talk to him, assuming he'll engage, but when I look up at his face, it's clear he's on a different page. I'll think my anecdote's a zinger, my delivery magnetic But my child will just stare blankly back, entirely apathetic There's no mutual discussion, there's no banter forth and back He has no great love of repartee, And gives no hoots for chat Now, I used to be offended by such one way conversation, But through time I've learned just why my child can't do reciprocation. There's a very simple reason why my discourse is a flop, You see, it's not concerned with what I say, but merely when I'll stop Cause as soon as I have finished he has learnt that it's a sign That it's now his turn to have his say, as he let me have mine. Instead, he has a burning need to get things off his chest And every chance he gets he'll talk about his special interest. To the subject that was being discussed, it bears zero relation It's a monolithic monologue Sans social lubrication. It could be sharks, or space, or Pokemon, or Jacobean fashion. What's striking isn't what it is, but the heartfelt surge of passion When I conversed, his shoulders slumped, his face was pale and dour But now he's energised like he's been switched to turbo power This child, who moments earlier, Looked very bored indeed, Now espouses tales of mighty Zeus and talks at lightning speed He'll blast through facts and figures, minute details fundamental He won't care if I'm listening, I'm merely incidental. And although it's nice if I'm on board his speeding verbal train It's more important he can speak to get it off his brain. Now there's often an assumption that I share his passion too, So I smile and nod and sometimes ask a question out the blue. And although it Is exhausting listening to his tirade. If I look beneath the surface, I should never feel dismayed. I've tried hard to teach compassion, and for empathy I strive. I've implored him to be kind and thoughtful all of his young life. I tear my hair out if he's rude or shows his selfish side. To teach him basic empathy I've tried and tried and tried, Perhaps I'm wrong to try and pin His worth on social graces, When there's evidence his loving side Resides in different places. And perhaps if I look harder for a deep sense of connection, I will see that he has a different way of showing his affection. As I see the effervescence in my sweet autistic boy When he launches into Zelda chat with such unbridled joy It is in these sacred moments where His special interest shines That I need to stop and take a breath To read between the lines 'Cause this knowledge that he's sharing, that he's bursting to impart, That's the foremost precious thing to him That's how he shares his heart So next time I'm interrupted by an avalanche of facts, I should just sit still and listen so he knows I'll love him back. So that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. All that remains for me to say is Liam Mullone, thank you for being our guest.

Liam
Thank you.

Mark
And to the audience, thanks for listening. And check us out on the socials, on threads, and Redsit, and Facebook, and Instagram, but not X. And if you want to suggest any topics you want us to talk about, please email hello at neuroshambles. com. It'd be great to hear from you if you've got anything to say about the show, and also if you could like all subscribe or like and subscribe in your podcast application that will also help to gain a bit of a bit of notoriety let's say in the podcast community that'd be great and Spread the word, but for now, have a nice life.