Social Etiquette | Jo Matthews

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to Neuroshambles episode nine. Thanks for joining us again, Neuroshamblers. I'm feeling and sounding a bit grotty at the moment, so my voice is going to be slightly different from usual, but I I can assure you it is still me. Secondly, just wanted to say thank you to some of the lovely messages we received in response to the the admin episode of the show, um, which um sounds like a lot of people are going through very similar experiences and um So it was really nice to get some positive responses. I just wanted to read out uh an email I got from Louise, who said the admin was very relatable, but you missed out one bit. The sodding photocopying and the filing You have to photocopy the fifty odd page DLA form slash EHCP thesis before you send it in case brackets when the powers that be lose it. Then you have to fill shelves in your spare room with soul destroying negative testimonies, many written by yourself of your beloved little people Um yeah, thanks for that. That is a facet that I had overlooked. I'll be honest, we recorded for nearly two hours, Jess and I and Had to edit quite a lot out of it. There was so much to include in that, but that was one that went a bit under the radar. So thanks for pointing that out. And if anyone else wants to send in stuff, I might make it a feature. We'll talk about. Stuff that some of the other listeners have pointed out I might have overlooked from the previous episode. Anyway, thanks for that, Louise. Just give you a quick rundown of what to expect this week. As ever, we're meeting a guest. This time, it's a guest From a previous episode, which I'm very excited to welcome back. We've got a new topic of the week, Neurodiversity Champions feature, and we've also got some tiny epic wins and some what the flip moments as well. So there's plenty to look forward to So without further ado, let's get started.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So I am absolutely delighted to be able to welcome Back to the show. Our very first ever guest on Neuroshambles is Jo Matthews.

Jo

Oh, how are you doing?

Mark

I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, so lovely to have you back. It's lovely to be back. Yeah. Um, so uh for the listeners that haven't listened to episode one of the show, firstly, what are you doing? Go and Listen to it. And secondly, just give us a quick recap about your particular setup, Jo, your family.

Jo

So I am Jo, and I live with my husband, Phil, and our adult and older teen children. So George is twenty and Dotty's seventeen. Both kids are diagnosed autistic. George also has an ADHD diagnosis. And Phil and I, I mean, we're just weird as fucks. I think we've both gradually realized, hang on a minute.

Mark

Is that diagnosed or suspected?

Jo

Diagnosed weird as fuck. I think we've both gradually sort of thought, ah, we are in fact we've been autistic all along. Yes, so that's us. We're very I haven't listened to the first episode.

Mark

Oh, haven't you?

Jo

Well, my voice, I think I said this, I sound like Pat Butcher after a rough night on recordings. And so people have said, Oh, it's really good. I really enjoyed it. All of that. But yeah, you can't listen back to it. I would die. I would die a thousand deaths.

Mark

Well, it's lovely. It's lovely to have you on. Genuinely, it's a treat. So, yeah, that's the introduction to your setup. Let's just smash on with the topic. Let's do it

Jo

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, the particular topic of this podcast is the theme of social etiquette

Jo

Oh, God.

Mark

I know. So, I mean, let's start by saying that social etiquette as a concept is Fucking weird. Really weird. When you think about it, whatever you call it, it's good manners or politeness or civilized behavior. It all boils down to this Unwritten set of rules that society appears to have agreed upon hundreds of years of years ago without consulting anyone. It just has ha been passed down from generation to generation, but somehow everyone is expected to be governed by those invisible rules. And if you don't abide by them, you are considered somehow less civilized.

Jo

Yes. Rude. And neurotypicals are given the set of rules somehow by osmosis the day they are born and grow up knowing I still don't know what the rules are Or why you're not meant to say so.

Mark

I know, and it's funny because I do I am I'm very governed by a lot of people. I am. Thank you very thanks for noticing. I try very hard. But no, it is. You're right. I like I th I haven't been handed it handed a manual for for what is expected of in polite society, but it is something that you do pick up as a as a neurotypical from either your parents teaching you and remembering that because as it w we'll get on to later that I teach my kids but they just it just doesn't stick And also, you know, just by watching other people in society and understanding, you know, what is expected and And picking it up that way, but it is a strange thing because it's not a thing I think that a lot of neurodivergent people instinctively pick up on.

Jo

I think that's fair to say. Absolutely right, yeah. And it varies from culture to culture and person to person. So it's not even one set of rules. It's this whole mass of things that you're supposed to say or supposed not to say.

Mark

Yes. I actually asked um I asked Jay for a definition of politeness

Jo

I dread to think.

Mark

It's just hilarious. It was at breakfast and I went, What? Could you give me a demonstration of good manners, Jay? And he sat bolt upright in his chair. He pawned a very serious expression, and then he pretended to dab his mouth with a tissue.

Jo

That is good, Matt. I mean, that's it in a moment.

Mark

I guess that's all you need, isn't it?

Jo

Just snacking at all times, ready to tap.

Mark

I asked him what constitutes good manners, and he gave me three things. He said sitting in the assigned places Okay. Not shouting at the table and wearing a tuxedo.

Jo

Maybe that's where I've gone wrong. It's the lack of tuxedo that's let me down to why people think I'm rude.

Mark

Can you imagine you could get away with murder if you were wearing a tuxedo?

Jo

And dabbing my lips with a napkin.

Mark

Yeah, so there's this sort of there is this misnomer that Politeness equates to poshness in a way, I guess, in that in order to be polite, you have to be Cripplingly posh, wearing a tattoo. I wanted in this episode to kind of dive into what is social etiquette, what are the expectations? And how, you know, neurodivergency plays a part in fulfilling or not fulfilling those expectations. So, I mean, one of my first kind of observations of this, just for each of my own kids, is that My kids don't place any value on these rules. No. They don't care about like if I'm like pointing my finger in their face or if I'm standing on furniture or if I'm burping. They don't. doesn't matter to them. They so they instinctively don't see the need to be governed by those rules because it's not anything they're offended by. I guess offence is one of those things, isn't it?

Jo

Yes. I think we talked about it last time. It's the notion that so at clubs, when parents will bring kids up at the end and say you must say thank you, why? I mean, you can if you want to, but why is that important?

Mark

Well, because if they were in the situation Where they were put, like, if you think about it, right, you do an amazing job of putting together this I'll call it an event loosely. Loosely. It's an event. Sometimes an event, indeed. It's a gathering of humans. And you know, you spend a lot of time setting that up and probably more time cleaning afterwards. Oh my God. Yeah. That's a huge thing. And if someone else had gone to the effort. Of doing that, then from a neurotypical perspective, you probably would appreciate people being thankful for that. Now, obviously, in a neurodivergent world. That's a different thing.

Jo

Yeah. I just yeah, 'cause m in my mind I always think, Well, I know they enjoyed it 'cause I saw them having a massive laugh. I don't need them to say these specific words in a specific order. for me to feel okay about it. Yeah, I don't know. It's it's a really weird one, and I know it's really important to other people, but

Mark

But they're projecting their neurotypicality onto you for a start of going, well, Jo's not going to do it if we don't say thank you

Jo

Yeah. I mean, anyone who's listening actually who does come to my clubs, you don't need to say thank you. Gifts. Do you bring gifts? Chocolates. Cheese.

Mark

Thank me with cheese.

Jo

If that's how you want to say if you want to say thank you and that's important, just bring cheese or chocolate and I'll be delighted.

Mark

But verbally is not necessary. One of the things you touched on earlier is that that um the social etiquette is sort of dependent on this shared understanding of these rules. Yes. Because, you know, if you like you're saying, if you take it out of context, you know, there are some things that are rude, if you like the thumbs up gesture in Afghanistan apparently is considered is like up yours. Right. And so obviously, it's it's entirely contextual. You've got to go you have to understand what the rules are in specific context. Yes. Now that's something that, as a neurotypical, that's a difficult thing to kind of get your head around. But for a neurodivergent, it's probably even more so because you're having to kind of understand the context you're in and the expectations of other people.

Jo

Yes.

Mark

It has to be an agreed understanding. In general, I think. Because if I go to Afghanistan and put my thumbs up to someone and they're offended, am I being rude? If I don't know, if I don't know, it's like a philosophy.

Jo

Oh my god, it's like if a tree falls in the woods. Yeah, exactly. Is it my fault, according to the kids? Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah, and it's um for me, with what I've kind of seen in my two, that it all boils down to not having any understanding of what's okay to say privately and what's okay to say publicly or to strangers or to So I remember once when George was quite little and I was ta we were in the doctor's waiting room and he was being quite cute and I was having one of those oh, this is great. I'm great at this parenting thing And he walked up to this elderly man and was just looking at him. And I was going, Oh, look at that. Guy must love it. And then George turned to me and loudly went, Mum, why is that one so grumpy? Right in front of him. And it's just that, oh, my God, I'm mortified. But he had no And I think he still doesn't. No sense whatsoever that you don't talk about people right in front of the people.

Mark

Yes, yes, particularly if it's not complimentary.

Jo

If it's not flattering. Yes.

Mark

No, I have this there's there is this sort of lack of awareness of how things are may be perceived. when you say yes. I have this example from when we had a dog. We had a dog for a very brief time. Do you remember that?

Jo

It was a lovely dog.

Mark

It's a lovely dog. A of us. Absolute carnage. We did not need that variable in our household And we'll get onto the dog in another episode, maybe. But we'd had the dog for about three weeks, and we decided to all go out for a family walk Lovely. And yeah, delightful idea, right? And everyone was on board with it. So that's fantastic. Now, Tam was walking ahead with Otto and the dog. And me and India and Jay were kind of hanging back a little bit. And then Jay looked ahead and then turned to me and went, It's not fair. Why does Otto get to walk with the best two? I was like, dude, I'm right here. Okay. And I wouldn't mind. But we'd only had the dog like three weeks. Oh my god. The dog had the dog had pissed on his bed. It had bitten him when he got in her face. It had ripped up his comics

Jo

And still, it's above me in the packing order. I mean, look, Mark, it's time to come clean. Had you pissed in his bed, also? Could that perhaps be?

Mark

That may be why it is. You've got to stop. But my point is, he was just telling his truth. You know, he wasn't at no point did he think. That might be quite upsetting to dad. Yeah, no. He was just like, these are facts. Who could dispute them? They're just stone cold facts to him.

Jo

And were you offended? Or have you grown an incredibly thick skin?

Mark

I've had to. Like, yeah, because if I got offended by every thing that that Jay in particular says to me, um, sometimes sometimes I do when I'm, you know, when I'm feeling a bit low and a bit a bit exhausted, then it is, yeah, 'cause it is it's quite hard to take when it's Like the amount of shit I do for you. And still, I've relegated to sub-dog levels. But generally, you've got to understand the context. Of it, right? He's not intending it. Sometimes he does intend it, and that is probably when it's a bit harder to take.

Jo

Yeah. That's when it really hurts, isn't it? Because I think our kids know how to. Absolutely push the button. Yes. Remember when George was angry once, he just shouted at me, You were too young to have children and it really shows. And it's like, Oh my god. Now, look, to be fair, I was 30. We're gonna kept him, so I don't know what old enough would have constituted, but I think I d I mean, I don't know. I've never parented a neurotypical team. But I wonder whether they would have a limit to what they would actually say to you, whereas with my two, when they're angry, that nothing is off limit They will say the most terrible, hurtful, painful things.

Mark

Yes, I mean, I think, I think that's probably coming.

Jo

I'll tell you what, Mark, brace yourself. Get yourself. My advice would be, as someone who's had the temerity to be overweight throughout the kids' teenage years Get yourself in physical perfection at all times because any physical flaw you have will be shouted at you and that can be painful.

Mark

Okay, I'll bet I'll bear that in mind. Another of the things that I want to kind of touch on is that manners, what is considered manners, is is a completely fabricated Concept. It's a social construct. It's it's kids aren't born with manners. It's not something that they instinctively know what to do. They have to have it taught. I mean, case in point, the very first thing that Jay did when he was born was shit all over town. And if that's not a metaphor for the rest of his life.

Jo

For the rest of his life.

Mark

I'll love it. I don't know what it is. But um it it it's something that you're expected to learn. Obviously, you know, if he if he did that now I'd have a few words.

Jo

Whoa.

Mark

But it it's something that you're like, like I say, you're kind of taught by your parents, or you pick up just by observing society. But none of these things crucially are natural.

Jo

They have to stick.

Mark

It's learned behavior. It's learned understanding.

Jo

Yes, and it I think it you might have said it to me before we were recording. It doesn't stick. I have tried and tried and like dots, a big one at the minute is if people pop round for a cup of tea or She'll chat to them for a bit and then right in front of them, she'll look at me and go, Mum, when are they leaving? None to how many times I tried to explain to a dot you can't And then I struggle 'cause I can't explain why you can't say that in front of people. You just can't.

Mark

It's gonna make them feel a bit unwelcome and a bit Yes, I think that's the thing, isn't it? But then then  Dotty would say, Well, they they aren't welcome

Jo

I want them to leave now. They've outstayed their welcome. Yes. And then quite a lot of our friends. So if you spend enough time with Dotty, she'll say it herself, you get Stuffcone syndrome 'cause she's absolutely obnoxious, but you cannot help but love her 'cause she's just so honest and funny and pure. So then I'll be trying to say, Dot, you cannot say that. You've got to learn this. You can't and the friends will go, Oh, no, no, it's fine. Dot, I think I'll be about another half an hour. Maybe she's right and I'm wrong.

Mark

Yeah, well, she's basically vetting your social group, isn't she? The people that stay after Dotty's finish with them. They're keeping it.

Jo

That is very, very true. They're the ones to hang on to.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. It's good having people in your life. It's important. for any pair of neurodivergent kids to kind of gather those people in your life that don't mind that aren't, you know, actually that that aren't really bothered by social etiquette. Because they understand and accept you as you are.

Jo

And the other ones disappear soon enough. You sort of along the way.

Mark

Yeah, they do just those invites dry up very quickly. Yeah, I'm sure there's people that you've lost along the way.

Jo

Yeah, definitely.

Mark

That's all that's daft.

Jo

Oh, I don't.

Mark

Yeah, I couldn't give you a little bit of a let's not lose too much sleep over those. One of the other things I wanted to kind of talk about was um etiquette schools or or the the the insistence that you can teach etiquette to people who don't who don't nurturally have this. So because there there are schools that are specifically geared towards teaching people To behave in civilization.

Jo

Like finishing school. Yeah, exactly. Do you think we should send them, send the kids and just see they would finish off?

Mark

They would finish the school. Well, one of them I 'cause I got sort of weirdly obsessed with them. I was just going, what are you I don't and like I like to think that Society has evolved a little bit since the time where that was a thing. That feels very 19th century. One of them claims to be like a disability-first employer. And I got really pissed off about that It's like, how can you be?

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

If you, the very fact that you're teaching social etiquette, and they've got loads of accreditations from people who work with them, it's like, well, how can you be a disability-versemer if you're. Placing a focus on something that a large amount of people are not able to access because of their disability.

Jo

Yeah. Because you're not getting autistic.

Mark

They teach you how to How to behave at a dinner table and and the best way to go.

Jo

Well, we know we've got that. You dab yourself with a napkin. Exactly. Done. So move down cats.

Mark

Maybe that's what they should do. If you really want to be a disability first employer, take Jay on, right?

Jo

Yeah. Hatch in the napkin.

Mark

Easty's got it nailed. Yeah, I found that slightly odd that I don't know, may am I wrong to be No, I think it's bizarre.

Jo

I think that whole notion of teaching etiquette and teaching so again, to my eternal shame, when mine were little, they were both offered these social skills group In school, and what I made to realize was what they were doing with the very best of intentions was trying to teach the kids how to behave like a neurotypical.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Jo

So some of the etiquette they were teaching was um oh, you know, when the teacher's teaching, you must sit absolutely still, otherwise you're being rude. You're not being rude, you're being autistic. You might need to fidget and fiddle and move around. I think the caveat for me would be that parents need to make their own decisions about stuff. And I don't judge anyone who finds that helpful or who kind of wants that for their kids. But for me it's very much the underlying message could be taken as being you're not good enough Being your authentic autistic self, so therefore, we're going to teach you how to behave in a more acceptable way. And uh, no.

Mark

But then, you know, on the flip side, they are our kids are out in the world, and it's a neurotypical world. And so they, you know, any guidance they can get that's going to help them navigate that. To go, actually, why is that guy got pulling that face? Oh, it's because I'm standing on his foot.

Jo

I'm pointing at him, whatever it is.

Mark

It's anything that we can equip them with, because that's the thing. You know, I think that's probably a worry of all neurodivergent parents of neurodivergent kids on some level. how can we equip them in a you know, as much as possible in a world that is riddled with neurotypicality?

Jo

Oh my god, it's everywhere. Well, I think it's trendy, isn't it, now to be neurotypical? It's all over TikTok, so they're all jumping on the bandwagon. Do you know what is the best tip I've been told, and it's sort of autistic approved, um the five minute rule. Okay. And this is specifically, I think it works best with appearance that if your comment is about something the person can change within five minutes, then it's okay to say. So it might be all right for me to say to my friend, Oh, you've got like some in your teeth there, you might want to go If it isn't something they can change in five minutes, you don't say it. So it wouldn't be all right for me to say to my friends, um, Jesus Christ, you're ugly or whatever, or you're really fat, you want to sort that out. And that, my kids both, to varying degrees of success, use that one, and that's really helpful differentiating. Yeah.

Mark

I'm going to try that on Jay in particular.

Jo

I don't think it will. Which I mean, knowing your boy as I do and loving your boy as I do, I don't think he'll care.

Mark

Yeah. Otto might get something out of it. We'll never know Well well I'll be okay, we'll see.

Jo

You can only give them the tools. It's up to them whether or not they build anything with them.

Mark

One of the things I wanted to do was look at what's one of these etiquette schools advising. In terms of the polite and proper way to behave in a civilized society. So, for the first question on their website is: why is etiquette important?

Jo

I'm all ears because I have no idea.

Mark

I'm going to read this with the appropriate level of pomposity in my voice.

Jo

Good.

Mark

Good.

Jo

Poshness.

Mark

Okay. Etiquette is important because it establishes a set of social norms and expectations that help individuals interact with each other in a respectful, considerate, and appropriate manner. Just opening bit of their website.

Jo

Oh my god.

Mark

Respectful, considerate and appropriate. Now we've already discussed this on previous episodes. Those terms mean nothing. They are not tangible, they are not quantifiable, they are entirely subjective terms.

Jo

Yeah, appropriate according to exactly

Mark

for for for neurodivergents who like to deal in tangible facts, right, so much of the world is kind of unknown and unknowable that that the my kids in particular seem to seize on on cold hard facts. I can trust them. That's a certainty. But so something like be respectful means Absolutely nothing to them. They don't want to have to interpret that. So already we're on shaky ground when it comes to social etiquette and my kids. So what I'm going to do now is I am going to go through the top ten rules that this Educate School recommends, that all people should foll if they want to be considered polite and well mannered. And then we'll test them against their own children and see how well mannered

Jo

I've got so much confidence in my two. Come on, kids. You're going to smash this.

Mark

Number one: use people's names. That's the first one. It says, A name is everyone's most prized possession, and you'll be amazed how doors open. Waiters and shop assistants will do anything for you when you greet them by name. It's the magic word

Jo

Wow, so that's right.

Mark

So how do yours fare on that front?

Jo

No, they don't at all. They don't. For a start, they don't recognize people, even if we've known them years and years. So recognizing them would be the first step, remembering their name. I don't remember anyone's name. Yeah, this is ridiculous. In fact, you're a boy. At club a few weeks ago, that a woman came, a specially SOTI, who has apparently been visiting your house for weeks and weeks and weeks. working with Otto.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Jo

And Tam had sort of said, Oh, look, Jay, this is so and so and he just looked up and down and went, I've no idea who that is

Mark

Oh my god. It's mortifying. No.

Jo

Well, that's the thing we're not doing that.

Mark

I think Otto in India are actually quite good at remembering names.

Jo

I think people's names are quite important to Otto in the middle.

Mark

Particular. Jay, no, no. He went to Dungeons and Dragons Club recently and he made what he describes as a friend Um yeah, I know, which is amazing. And uh and Tam went, What's uh what was his name? And he went, Pizza Boy. No, that definitely wasn't his name. He was just eating pizza. That was not anything that occurs to him to ask. He doesn't care. And he will very often, I've heard him say it. I don't remember your name. And again, like, that's a very neurotypical thing, is to be offended if people don't remember your name. You don't remember who I am?

Jo

Yes.

Mark

How dare you? Which is stupid, isn't it? Especially he's got so much other stuff going on in his brain. My. My name I mean, I'd be white, yeah.

Jo

I mean, I'd be upset if you forgot my name. Obviously, I mean, it's it's not impossible. It's unlikely that he will, but I'm going to say it's not impossible. I won't forget who you are entirely. So just, you know, just go with the flow on that.

Mark

My favorite my favourite story of Jay not remembering a name was um not a human. But a cat?

Jo

We stayed. We stayed.

Mark

Because he didn't even try to remember the name. He just made one up and it was brilliant. I we were staying with some friends and they've got a cat called Mojo.

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Which is, you know, it's a cool name for a cat.

Jo

It's a great name for a cat.

Mark

And I said, Jay, that cat's name's Mojo. Remember that name. I'm going to test you in the morning. Right. I just thought I'd give it as, you know, low stakes, just a bit of a tip. His name's Mojo, okay? Don't forget. And then in the morning. He walked in and I went, Oh, Jay, what's the cat's name? And he just looked at him, looked straight at the cat and then straight back at me and went, Arnold Sardini. Without even thinking. That's an excellent name for a cat. That's a brilliant name.

Jo

I don't think you can take anything away from what Jay's done, Mick, as Arnold Sardini. I'd call looking at that.

Mark

Yeah, I I d I mean, I think yeah, I think when when our cat goes, Arnold Sardini may rise from the ashes.

Jo

Sardini, yes.

Mark

But he doesn't care. It's just like it's what w as long as he's giving it a name in his head, Pete. The boy Arnold Sardini just walking around the world naming things so that he can identify them. That's all he needs. See? In a way, I wish that I had Jay's confidence to not. to not care. You know, because I've been in so many conversations with people and I don't know their names and I fucking panic. I straightened it. Yeah, it's it like I I'm mortified if I can't remember someone's name and I'm just like looking at someone to try and help me out. You just asked them. No, because I'm

Jo

We're cripplingly neurotypical.

Mark

I mean, like, not not all neur neurotypicals are the same, but there is this sort of implication that even asking them is impolite. We?

Jo

Yeah, it's like this weird image.

Mark

Oh shit.

Jo

I just say to people, oh, I'm so sorry I've forgotten your name.

Mark

No, that's fine.

Jo

Do you think oh my god I'm really worried.

Mark

No, no, no, it's my I mean if but again, it's how well you know them. If you've been introduced to them once or twice, but obviously if you see them it parents at school is the worst. Because I see them every day and I might, I've probably been told their name, I've probably been to the pub with them.

Jo

And then if I'm

Mark

Completely blank, and I feel terrible about that. So, in a way, I wish that I had the freedom to not give a shit. Like, Jay, that would be liberating

Jo

I th yeah, be more J. I think we should live by those words.

Mark

Absolutely. Okay, number two on the list of what constitutes social etiquette is use proper greetings Yep, it says always greet people with a smile and a hello. Hello. And this is actually one of the diagnostic criteria for autism. Well, I don't know if it's like official, but in both Otto and Jay's diagnosis. report. It mentioned that when they entered the room, they didn't even look at the person already in that room or say hello They just got just got on with it. Whatever it was they were getting on with, they just like Jay just kind of, I think, started climbing on stuff. And Otto I d I don't think he I think he just did he eye contact's a big thing for him. So he wasn't particularly interested. He kind of walked in and sort of ignored them. And it was mentioned in both of the assessment documents as being something that is kind of symptomatic of autism. Which I didn't really know.

Jo

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

In Otto's case, he ran over to the stairs and started stroking the carpet. As he does, evidently. And the person just started holding the door open for him. Not particularly, but I think it was just A distraction for him, it was. Uh, I don't know, I think he probably felt uncomfortable about that initial engagement in hindsight. I think that's probably what it is. So then he was like, Well, I can't do something I'll stroke the carpet.

Jo

I'll stroke this carpet.

Mark

Yeah, so that's quite interesting. Is the kind of greeting people? Do yours do that?

Jo

Are they no, they don't. I d was just thinking and if we so yesterday me and Dots were out and we bumped into a friend and because it Was an unplanned encounter. Doc just froze and sort of shoulders went up, and she was like that. But yeah, I don't think they've ever smiled and said hello. I've never even thought about it.

Mark

I mean, why would you? No, no, it wasn't. Because, yeah, that's what's expected, apparently. On a similar note, rule number three is say please and thank you which we've sort of touched on. But what they say is uh these are basic manners and show gratitude and respect. Always say please when making a request and thank you when receiving help from others.

Jo

Yeah. Why? Which is just, yeah. Like I know. And why does it matter? It's a very British thing, isn't it? I used to work with a woman from Iceland who never said please or thank you.

Mark

Oh really? And did you? Did you I loved her okay yeah fine you weren't offended or anything do you know other people who were though because

Jo

I think other people I work with were like oh very rude, and then I might be lying when I say I don't think there are words in Icelandic for please and thank you. They must speak. That sounds like a lie, doesn't it? But culturally it's not an expectation that you would say please or thank you. And for similar reasons, I've always really liked Dutch people. There's not a lot of please and thank you And you know that very British thing of would you mind all things?

Mark

Yes, everything is apologetic. Yeah.

Jo

Yeah. That I find other cultures will just say exactly what they mean and if they want something, they'll say, I would like that. And then I'm like, Yeah, here you go and it and it's just easier.

Mark

It makes much more sense. No, totally. But but it is I mean, I am aware that that so British society in particular is governed by those two Words and encounters are kind of smoothed over if people show politeness in that sense. So I still expect my kids to say please and thank you to me. And I know I'm on a losing battle, but I'm trying to just prepare them so that they're not kind of pissing people off by being seen to be rude. Because I think all parents teach this to their kids.

SECTION INTRO

Like kids, again, have to learn that behavior.

Mark

So that it just becomes, it's just an instinct, then, and then you've got that as a, it's almost like a verbal tick, right? You've just got, it's just, it just happens at the end of a sentence, you know, and that helps to kind of oil the wheels of interaction. The next the next rule of social etiquette is number four, look at the person who is speaking to you You, this is very important to the etiquette people. It says they say when meeting someone for the first time, it's important to introduce yourself and make eye contact

Jo

While shaking hands, eye contact, you must make eye contact. I think George's school, when he was in infant school, so a long time ago now, used to try and teach him to make eye contact. which I now realize is utterly dreadful and they can fuck right off with that. He doesn't need to make eye contact. Amaita have told me that making eye contact is actually sometimes physically painful And why would you make a child do something that physically hurts them? Shake hands as well. Oh my God, Dot's absolutely fucked there. She doesn't like people touching her. And she's not going to make eye contact. She doesn't like it.

Mark

No. Well, evidently people consider it rude. I mean, so much of eye contact though, i is it's instinctual, isn't it? I think. Um, I don't realize I'm doing it. But I know that a lot of neurodivergent people have to consciously remember to make eye contact because of this rule They have to force themselves to do it to not offend people, which is weird. I mean, I don't think I've ever been offended by it. I mean, to be honest, if you don't make eye contact, I'd be like, oh, you're neurodivergent, fine.

Jo

Yeah. And that's I wonder if as more people are aware of neurodivergence, will that become less? Of an issue. Yeah, that's always been something that I opposed at home. I think in school, I said in the social groups, there was some, like, you must make eye contact. But honesty why?

Mark

Yeah, it like you're saying, it's it's it it can be physically painful to to some neurodivergents to make that eye contact So you're forcing them into this uncomfortable situation. I think part of it, because I know I do this in our house, particularly to Otter and it is and every time I do it, I was like, oh, I should stop doing that. Um I ask him to look at me and that's because I need to know that he's paying attention. He's so easily distractible. If I'm trying to communicate something important, I ask him to look at me, and I absolutely shouldn't do that because A, I know that he finds it difficult. And B, just because he's not looking at me doesn't necessarily mean he's not listening to

Jo

It's tricky though, because sometimes they really aren't listening, they've zoned out and you've spent five minutes going on about something that's just got some minefields.

Mark

So I need to find an alternative to that. Is like, you know, just wave your hand if you're listening. Yes, something like that. rather than or if you want to be really cruel.

Jo

I when that I felt like I was being ignored, I used to um just slip in do you want one of these sweets with whip browns And I'll be like, well, you bloody well can hear me then.

Mark

Oh, I like that. I'd have to try that one.

Jo

Yeah. You won't find that in any of the parenting manuals.

Mark

No.

Jo

It's just something I worked up myself.

Mark

As we've already s established, parenting manuals do not hold any weight in our setups. No. We write our own. Okay. Uh number five on the list of of good etiquette is Man, practice good table manners.

Jo

This is oh my god.

Mark

Um so that what they say about this is This includes using utensils properly, keeping your elbows off the table, and chewing with your mouth closed. Also wait until everyone is served before starting to eat.

Jo

Hi. Genu. Do you try and sit and eat round a table?

Mark

I'm just laughing because of how far removed from my daily life at.

Jo

But it's none of those things.

Mark

Using utensils, no. Keeping elbows off the table. I have a problem keeping their feet off the table Yes. Chewing with your mouth closed no. And waiting until everyone is served before starting to eat. I've kind of got the other problem of just getting them to eat in the first place as well. So, I mean, I've got my own battles going on there. Do they sit at the table?

Jo

Do you try and do that idealized, or we'll all sit together and share a meal and talk about our day?

Mark

We we put the food on the table

Jo

Do you have plates?

Mark

Yes.

Jo

You don't just tip it out?

Mark

Go help yourself.

Jo

No.

Mark

No, we uh we we put the food on the table and I think the expectation is that we start out sitting. Oh, that's the best we can do. And this is definitely a topic that I'm going to it's going to be a whole separate podcast about about mealtimes. Separate to food. Food will be different, but mealtimes in particular. Because of the rigmarole involved, but it is something that my kids are not great at. And we had an experience once where we went to stay with some friends of Tam's. And they were they're lovely people and and incredibly well mannered. The kids are impeccably well mannered. At one point, the child I think the child did a clarinet recital while we were sitting at the table. It was like it was so far removed from everything.

Jo

Who is my little feral bunch of hoof niggas? Just bouncing off.

Mark

Yeah. And I had to witness because the adults were eating later. So they did meal time for the kids and they made spaghetti and I was like, oh God.

Jo

Oh God.

Mark

Oh God. No. And all the kids sat down at the table and because I wasn't eating, I was obviously just sort of overseeing this. And it was a fucking car crash. It was like because they were sat on one side of the table and my brother was at the other.

Jo

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

Like Marima sat the other side of the table and the looks on their faces as they witnessed my kids.

Jo

Literally. See, what were they thinking?

Mark

But they don't know because they assume that, you know, they assume we're following the etiquette rules, right? So my kids are literally fisting spaghetti into their face. Otto's only using his fingers. There's spaghetti everywhere. I th I th I may be misremembering this, but I'm in my imagination, there was a white tablecloth. And I remember just kind of witnessing the the horror on On the other family's face as they witnessed my lot. He's literally talking with their mouthful like they were eating it, which for me was a win. Do you know what I mean? You're eating food cooked by someone else That's but obviously I'm sort of witnessing the reaction and how mortifying it was from their perspective. And um and the kids on the family I could see actively starting to enjoy it and starting to be amused by just how relaxed it was.

Jo

I was thinking we could do this.

Mark

Yeah. And I can only imagine that they had to have a family debrief

Jo

At the end, just go, yeah, this is not what we do. Okay, we are not these people. We are still friends with them.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, because they're not. I don't feel like there was any judgment.

Jo

It's not my fault. It wasn't perfect.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Jo

I mean, well, it is.

Mark

And all credit to them. Well done. But no, there wasn't any expectation that we. Yeah, they weren't annoyed, but I think they were just a bit like, oh, this is a very different situation. And they were lovely about it, but I do feel like they needed to deprogram their children after what. They witnessed. Okay, do you want to know six on the etiquette rules?

Jo

I really do.

Mark

Okay, this is number six: be mindful of your language. Avoid using foul language, especially in public places. Use polite and respectful language at all times. I swear, if the last episode was anything to go by, I swear a little bit too much. I got um that was it was quite sweet.

Jo

Did you get banned by Google again?

Mark

No, but I listened back to it, it's like Yeah, it's a lot of oh it was an anima it was an animated subject, it was about admin, so it was you know, it required swearing.

Jo

Oh, yeah.

Mark

Um, but you know, I I I do swear Um, but I also know when not to swear. Like I know when it's appropriate and when it's inappropriate and um used judiciously. Swearing can be a a a really powerful tool and a really good social tool. But I know when not to do it and I don't think that well my well firstly my kids are haven't yet fully discovered swearing.

Jo

We're in a golden time round. We're in a golden time right now.

Mark

But because what I know is that when they do, the big challenge is when it's appropriate to use that and when not. I mean, how do yours how are yours? Because obviously yours are older.

Jo

They're like sailors. They've lived with me for far too long not to But what I found, it spreads like a virus once the older one realizes, hang on, these words are quite fun to say. That's it. Game over.

Mark

For you, it'll just go bang, bang, bang, down through the three of them. And I mean, it's a weird concept, swearing anyway, because they're just words, right? So actually, the power of swear words is entirely imbued by etiquette. Yeah. Like if no one if it was just another word and no one was offended and it wasn't impolite to use those words, they would have no power.

Jo

Yeah. My rule was They they swear like sailors. They swore a lot at home and I can't get worked up about it. It's, you know, they're teenagers, that's that's buying the bike. My one rule at home and at clubs is I don't care if you swear, I care if you swear at each other. So it's all right to say, no, I've dropped my fucking paintbrush, but it's not all right to call someone a fucking fuckhead. Yeah. Because that's unkind. And that's the only because otherwise does it matter. Not not to us, no.

Mark

But then again, you got you know If you go in a job interview, I see. Yeah, what experience have you got five fucking years at Burger King, mate? Yeah, it's like You know, or whatever it was. You again, it's you need to teach context. Okay, rule seven. Again, not one that's easily adhered to by my family. Respect personal space. Oh, God. So don't stand too close to people. And always ask before touching someone. Be aware of your surroundings and respect people's privacy.

Jo

I think we might have actually hit on the one social rule of etiquette that my two passed, because my two. Don't want to stand near anyone or indeed touch them.

Mark

Okay, very we are polite. One out of ten.

Jo

Yes.

Mark

Actually no. One out of seven so far.

Jo

See, the last three we might smash, and then my family are the winners. Do you does would that touch someone?

Mark

Jay Yeah, they grab a lot. They grab some th that kind of thing. You know, if someone's got something that they want to have a look at, they'll just grab. They'll just grab which is infuriating And also Otto is a bit more just literally in your face and all over you. Like he's not really aware of his Body as much, I think.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And how you learn? Well, I don't know.

Jo

Yeah, again, that's Temple Grandin taught herself. how to approach people by you know automatic doors. Apparently she used to go and practice walking up to them because if you walk up to them too quickly, they don't sense you and open. And you've got to find that golden speed of wa appro and that's how she how to walk up to other people. It's like if I learn the speed at which This door opens, that's a normal in inverted commas, a typical speed at which to approach. So maybe there's things like that that people can use to sort of Learn what's the expectation. What are the yeah, that's really interesting.

Mark

I mean, like I say, Otto is is uh no respecter of so Distance, but he's still a kid, and people forgive it from kids. They understand it from kids. When they get older, I think that becomes more of a thing. Personal boundaries. and a social distance and stuff and physical proximity becomes more of an issue because, you know, if you you encounter people in everyday life that do That they're just a bit like a bit too close to you.

Jo

Oh my god, you're people, and you keep backing, and in the end, it's like you're being chased round a room by them because they keep coming just a fraction too close, and it feels So uncomfortable. So it's definitely a thing.

Mark

It's definitely a thing that people feel, but how you learn that, I don't know. Because if you don't feel it, if you don't feel uncomfortable as a result of that. then you don't understand what effect your proximity is having on people.

Jo

Yes. And how do you prioritize all of these rules? As well. So I was thinking, well, you could learn that you've maybe put out an arm, and an arm's length of distance is the appropriate. But then every time you spoke to someone, it'd be exhausting 'cause you'd be thinking, Right, I've got to be an arm's length distance. I need to look near them. I must use their name. I must say please and thank you It'd be so exhausting that you'd end up just walking away.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. Who's got the energy for that? Yeah, yeah, because you have to relearn it every time as well. You're like, oh, oh, I've learned this. Oh, I need to get out of this guy's face. And stop swearing. No.

Jo

Just swearing at him. Or just use his name when you're swearing. Hello, Mark. How the fuck are you? Perfect.

Mark

Rule number eight, dress appropriately. There's that word again, appropriately. Dress appropriately for the occasion and location If you are unsure of the dress code, remember that it is always better to be slightly overdressed than under dressed.

Jo

Tuxedo.

Mark

Tuxedo again.

Jo

Just tuxedo at all times.

Mark

I'll be honest, getting my kids just at tall is an achievement. Oh my god, yeah. If they're wearing clothes, you're winning. Overdressed for Jay is wearing pants at dinner time. Seriously, I constantly have to remind him Like, that's the one rule I got. I don't want to see your junk at the dinner table, dude.

Jo

No one wants to see that. No one wants that in their spaghetti.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

So I've got this mental image now of Jade button crouched on the table picking up fistles and spaghetti. Like a wild monkey and shoveling them in.

Mark

It's wonderful stuff. You don't know how true to life that vision is, Jo.

Jo

But the autistic uniform Crocs. Do yours wear crocs? Oh my God.

Mark

Yes. Uh crocs and onesies. That's the that's the the staple. And I've tried, I've tried. And again, clothing is gonna be a whole separate episode. I'm really kind of Of interesting to talk about that. But you know, it's kind of having an awareness of what to wear in certain situations, I think, is the thing, isn't it? Yes. Like weddings and stuff.

Jo

I mean, fortunately, we have not been invited to a wedding for a long time now. I wonder why that's a reason for that. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. But if that does happen, that that I think is going to be quite a big problem now. The last wedding I went to was uh was My brother's wedding, and that was probably five years ago. So, before I think some of their autistic behaviors became a bit more kind of prevalent, and before we were more aware of it, they just wore normal clothes and that was okay.

Jo

I can't imagine how I'd approach that now. No, I mean I think it it would have to be If the kids can't wear what they need to wear, we can't count.

Mark

Or if you're going to have a dress code that that dictates that my kids are not welcome in what they're comfortable in I don't think, to be honest, I don't think, because, you know, you get invited to weddings by people who you know and who like you. Exactly. Yeah.

Jo

So they kind of get it.

Mark

And if they don't, then I don't want to go any

Jo

Then, yeah.

Mark

But it is on the boy's back. Is he dressed appropriately, Jo?

Jo

He looks really nice, actually. Because that's the thing as well. They do come out the other side and develop an interest in hygiene and Sort of wearing clothes and develop their own sense of style. Yes, and that's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, you do.

Mark

It's their own sense. That's the crucial thing. It has to be driven by them. It has to be their choice. I I fully expect, given Jay's essentially Victorian demeanor, I can imagine he's gonna he's gonna evolve into someone who wears like a tweed suit or something.

Jo

He could. I've seen a programme about a young autistic adult who enjoyed dressing as a Victorian gentleman. That could be Jay. He could could he have a twirly moustache? Can I just have a sword?

Mark

I mean, he's already established that when he's older, he's going to have a moustache and a budget. So yeah, I mean it's definitely on the cards for him. But crucially, we we can't impose a dress code on our kids Without a lot of blowback on that. All right, I'm going to go to number nine of the etiquette rules because this is one that My kids fall down on quite badly as well. Um number nine, be interested in others. So this is pay attention to what people are saying and show interest in their opinions. Avoid interrupting or dominating the conversation. Also be respectful and considerate of other people's opinions.

Jo

Oh, dear God.

Mark

So many issues there. Respectful and considerate. Again, again, we've got those completely nonsensical, woolly words interest in others. Do you do yours show an interest in other people?

Jo

I mean, I think Dot's better at it because she's got that innate goal sociability.

Mark

Mhm.

Jo

George, if he doesn't find what someone's saying is interesting, he'll just change the subject. He will interrupt and change the subject And I don't know but he's got lots of friends, so I don't I don't know how he gets away with it.

Mark

Well, because he I guess listen No oh, sweet jeez. No, I mean no, they don't. Oh, they listen if it directly interests them or if it pertains to anything that they they kind of want to do. But if I'm talking about something else, they They're just zone out. You could see them just switching off. Like, Jay, we'll just do that and then wait until my voice has stopped. I've stopped talking. And then he'll launch into what he wanted to say in the first place. So it was evident he was just waiting for the teacher. I imagine that in his head, I'm the teacher from Snoopy In Charlie Brown, you know, and then eventually the teacher stops, and then the answer comes of just what he wanted to say in the first place. So he he's not going to show an interest in something just to be polite. It's never going to happen.

Jo

I've been working with George on it because he's also he can be quite socially anxious of late, which is a new 'cause he was always very hedonistic and outgoing. And yeah, we've been working on you can ask people questions and that's how you if you feel awkward in a conversation, because everyone enjoys talking about themselves. So yeah, I don't know if I would make him do it to be polite, though. I'm sort of trying to help him learn to ask questions just to get through social scenarios

Mark

I mean, one of the things that's mentioned in that one is about not interrupting. That that is a massive problem in our house, and it's so infuriating. Whenever Tam and I is having a conversation, we are constantly interrupted. And I get why that is perceived as rude, because it's basically saying what you're talking about is not important. It is nowhere near as important as this as This. And Otto is particularly bad at interrupting because he wants to join us, I guess. He wants to be sociable. So he'll just interrupt what water we're talking about, but it's never anything of importance. 'Cause he could, you know, like the interruptions are acceptable if it's like, you know, the bin's on fire.

Jo

Yeah, that's you know, that's an important yes, you're right.

Mark

That is, yes, that is more important than what you're talking about. I'm pretty fair you know, I think you can fairly say. But it's not that. He will interrupt to say, Do you want to hear about the goal I scored at lunchtime?

Jo

So there is only one acceptable answer.

Mark

Yes, I do.

Jo

Yes, I do, but not right now is actually the only acceptable answer.

Mark

So I actually implemented a system once. When we were eating, where I made the kids put their hand up if they wanted to talk.

Jo

I love it.

Mark

And it worked. It worked really well for a little bit. It was absolutely wonderful. So I would be talking to one answering one of the kids' questions and rather than them just firing another one at me and talking over their sibling. They put their hand up. And for a little brief moment in time, it felt like I was at a press conference.

Jo

Okay. Yes, I'll take your question next.

Mark

Otto from the Daily Mail.

Jo

What have you got to say?

Mark

Yeah, it was really it it worked for a very very short amount of time but now we're back To just talking over each other and firing and not waiting for me to answer before the next question comes in, and that kind of thing. And I get why that is seen as rude.

Jo

Because thinking about my own experiences. I genuinely struggle to know when it's my turn to talk. I'm better in person or when I can see the other person on the phone. I I'm terrible. I hate phone calls. Because how do you not how do people I don't know?

Mark

That yeah, that's interesting because I I like I feel I feel like I feel like I could do it. It's not a thing I'm conscious of not being able to do, which doesn't necessarily mean that I don't do it. It's just it I'm not conscious of of a a difficulty with knowing when it's my turn to talk. Yeah. But it is weird, isn't it? That's a very yeah, that's an interesting thing of that you th when the pause is long enough. And now you've made me really self-conscious while I'm having this conversation.

Jo

Now you're thinking about it. Do you just wait for the other person to stop. I said, you have to wait for them to stop. But how do you know when they've stopped or if they're just doing a pause for emphasis? So it's a minefield. Have you stopped now? Or you can't do that? I do see his podcast goals. And the rest going, have you stopped?

Mark

Yes.

Jo

Is it my turn? Raise your hand when it's your t

Mark

To speak. Interruptions are a bit of a nightmare. And also, the other one is being respectful of other people's opinions. No, no respect whatsoever.

Jo

No, no.

Mark

I mean, it's very rarely the case, particularly with Jay. Um, we there's no such thing as agreeing to disagree with Jay. It's like I will agree that you are wrong, is what I get from Jay. Um, so I'm wrong and he's right.

Jo

End of story, and that is the case. Every single time. There are no exceptions to that.

Mark

No, because there can't be two viewpoints.

Jo

There's only one viewpoint, and that's his viewpoint.

Mark

And my viewpoint is not his viewpoint, therefore wrong.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

It's a Yeah, he fails hard on that that particular facet of etiquette. Um the final one. The final one on the rules of of of social etiquette as defined by the Not going to say the name of the school, but the etiquette school.

Jo

I want to go there.

Mark

It's not one I'm going to be linking in the show notes. Is this? It is. be mindful of other people's feelings. Oh, God Yeah. It is important to show those around us that we respect them and are considerate to their feelings Again, respectful and considerate. I mean, it's something that underpins a lot of the rules that everything that we've Disgust is not hurting other people's feelings, not offending people, not making them uncomfortable. It's about them.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And that's something that doesn't come naturally to my kids and for many neurodivergent kids is understanding how other people perceive their behavior.

Jo

Yes, and why the other person might feel upset by things that they've said or done, um, because I know for my two, the notion that autistic people don't have empathy is utter nonsense. They absolutely do. have empathy and they care about people's feelings and they're they're loving, loving little people. There's this really fucking group of By neurotypical standards. Yes, that's the thing, isn't it? That's the kind of the kicker of it. They don't want to be offensive or rude or, you know, behave in a way that hurts feelings, but they don't have the understanding of what the proof there that the proof there is that neurodivergence in the same conversation are not offended.

Mark

Yes. You know, so it's like neurotypicals have written the rules to which everyone needs to to supposedly adhere to. Otherwise, you're not. You're not in the gang. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Um, and and it's just it's it's so so hard, it must be such a struggle, genuinely. I like to for my kids. And especially as they're getting older and they're going to start sort of being around other kids where Social interaction is so much more important. To have to be governed by these rules they don't get must be exhausting for them.

Jo

Which is, they need Well, for me, my kids needed their tribe. And so they both predominantly have autistic or neurodivergent friendships. They've got maybe one or two token neurotypicals as friends.

Mark

Yeah.

Jo

And and because that's a safe place for them to be is with other people who won't take offence over something completely arbitrary that they don't understand and that's my hope that's my hope for for all of my kids is that they find people

Mark

Who are well, you do. I think you do. I mean, we do as families as well. We hang out with families who are not appalled by us. Basically, it's a low bar.

Jo

It's a low bar.

Mark

That's what you've got to do, right? So anyone who who is is instinctively um sort of irritated by the way that you are Can do one. I've got there's not enough time in my life for people who are going to disapprove of what we do. And that's okay. You can go and find neurotypical families. There are many more of those to grace your life with.

Jo

That's fine. Yeah.

Mark

Um and we'll go and disgrace other people's lives.

Jo

Maybe that's the key to it all is that you find your group of people with whom you don't To follow the unwritten rules because then you can relax and be yourselves and actually maybe even enjoy life a bit. But maybe we teach a little bit maybe we teach our kids enough of the rules so that when they go into that context where they have to, that they're able to do it.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, looking at the positives as well, I because I've been thinking about this, and like I some of my favorite people yourself included, Jo, are the people that that don't follow those rules. Yeah. They're not bound by those rules. sort of um it's much more enjoyable when people don't stand on ceremony, right? That whole thing about you know behaving in a proper way. I much prefer improper people. They're much more fun. And so the people that call that out all kind of are more fun to be around, I think. And sometimes there is nothing funnier than people breaking social etiquette.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

I remember a time, one of the funniest things I can ever remember was when I was probably about eight and I was at school. And I went to a school that had school assemblies where we would have to do a Prayer, okay. Um, as you can tell, it's had a big impact on my life.

Jo

I'm highly amen to that, right?

Mark

Okay, we had to do a prayer, and one of the funniest things I ever remember. Is doing a prayer, and it was absolutely silent. Everyone had got their heads bowed, and they were praying, and then someone did a massive far right like it echoed around this sports hall.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And I remember just the the shock. The initial shock, and then the absolute hilarity that ensued, and everyone's just absolutely pissing themselves. Was it polite? Absolutely not. Am I still laughing about it more than 40 years on? You fucking bet I am. Farts are inherently funny. I defy it. They are inherently funny otherwise. But it w it wa it wasn't just the fart, it was The situation. It was just the seriousness and the sort of the, you know, the etiquette was absolutely shattered at that moment. And it was, you know, it's genuinely a moment that's lived with me. So. There is definitely a place for those people. I don't know what the what the Farter is doing now.

Jo

It's no no doubt something magnificent with do you think they ever think about the Fart? Like, was it a deliberate assault? Were they brazening it out?

Mark

I mean, we'll never know. It's difficult to really understand, but it sounded defiant. A dear fire far clattering on the wooden floor. So the final thing I kind of would would say about social etiquette before we round this bit off is I've been thinking about this Do you remember in COVID times, which wasn't that far ago? I don't know if you remember that far back, when people had to wear face masks. But some people, particularly who found that difficult for Many reasons had facial masks exemption cards.

Jo

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

So if they went to a supermarket with people freaking out, it's like, all right, I'm neurodivergent, you know, I'm exempt from face masks. I think That we should have a similar card for social etiquette. I'm exempt. Yeah, I don't know. I am exempt.

Jo

I don't follow your rules. Well, fun enough, Dot, if she's going into I don't know, like yesterday we were going shopping in Primart. She needed some jeans. She wears, through her choice, not mine, she wears a lanyard that says, I am autistic. Oh, okay. Because Although she doesn't owe anyone an explanation about who she is and how she might behave, it does stop people being dickheads.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jo

Absolutely. So yeah, maybe she's should get a second card saying, I will not follow social etiquette.

Mark

Deal with it. And then list the ten rules that we've just talked about.

Jo

And just say none of these, apart from the not touching people, I've got that one down. All of the others, no, don't expect them. They're not going to happen.

Mark

I like it. Just go into any situation, flash your badge.

Jo

And just say, I'm exempt.

Mark

Now fuck off.

Jo

That could be your catchphrase at the end of the podcast. Now fuck off. I mean, that'd be quite moving.

Mark

It would.

Jo

It'd be emotional.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Right, so I think that's the topic of the week put today. I wanted to go on to the the more positive side of things towards the end of the podcast, where we talk about various different more uplifting facets of our neuroshambolic lifestyles. One of the things I wanted to talk about was neurodiversity champions. I don't know if you've got any neurodiversity champions This week.

Jo

I can't think of any. Did I say something?

Mark

Remind me you do yours. I've got one which is uh Odeon Cinemas. And I know that other cinemas do this, but there is a special they have special screenings, autism friendly screenings. Where you go in there and the lights are up, so it's not so dark, and the sound is down, so it's obviously not so Loud, and also, you're in there with other neurodivergent families who are not going to get pissy about your kids talking through the show or like get up and want trying to touch the screen and stuff. So that was quite that was quite nice. Again, it's just, you know, to be able to take them to that environment and not feel like you have to to police their behaviour on on account of offending other people is quite nice. And I know that there are other places that do it as well, but Odeon Cinema

Jo

That's uh I has got one he's reminding me of it. Oh, got them. The Theatre Royal in Brighton

Mark

Oh, yeah.

Jo

And so we'd gone with family to see a show just before Christmas and Dot got overwhelmed So I approached a member of staff and said, He says, Somewhere quiet we can sit just while we're waiting for the performance to start. And they a lady came up and said, Oh, you know, I've got a quiet room We were whisked off into a quiet side room, and then she went and fetched us drinks And then said, Right, you know, you can stay here as long as you need. Someone will come and let you know just before the performance starts and show you to your seats. And it was such a simple Easy thing on their part to do, but made a world of difference. So, yeah, big up the Theatre Royal in Brighton.

Mark

Yeah,

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Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Um, okay, tiny epic wins. Uh, have you got any tiny epic wins for us?

Jo

I was going to tell you about Lewis. That's his real name that I'm using with permission. And His story isn't mine to tell, so suffice it to say, this is a kid who's had a really tough life. And Lewis is fifteen, he's autistic, he's one of our older autistic kids, and he's um he's been helping me at the group for the younger kids for the past four months now, four or five months. Every week, I think this is going to be the week that he doesn't come. Every week, I look out the window. and see him like swaggering. You know they do that walkers. I see him swaggering up the path with his weight, his vaping, his massive weight. And he's got his hand down the back of his tracky bees looking for all the world like a hoodlum. And then he's just Brilliant, and he does such an amazing job. I'm so proud of him, and it just makes me so fills my heart with joy to see that every week.

Mark

Well, he's got some responsibility and he's got some trust and, you know, people who get him.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

So important.

Jo

I just love this little roadman and then this little gaggle of middle class parents going, He's amazing. He really is amazing. And I'm like, Yes, he is.

Mark

Yeah, especially because they don't even know the sort of the journey is had to listen.

Jo

Yeah. And he's, yeah, so I'm very, very proud of him, and it makes me very happy. What's yours? Have you got? Fantastic

Mark

I've got okay, here's one. And it is a tiny, a tiny win, but it is pretty epic. And it involves Otto. Okay. And that Otto has slept in his own bed all night for three nights in a row. Which sounds sounds like yeah, big deal, but it really is because he does not like sleeping alone So he's always coming into my bed or Tam's bed or you know he he's he he will he needs people close to him, I think. I don't know what it is, and he can't articulate it because he doesn't have the kind of the emotional understanding to be able to tell me what it is. We've tried to solve it because also he's a massive wriggler. He's also really awake at that time as well, in the middle of the night. It's not like he just sort of snuggles in and dozes off quietly. He is a firecracker.

Jo

I love him.

Mark

So and he's been trying and we sort of we don't we don't have the expectation on him, but we do make it clear that it would be nice if He tried to stay in his own bed.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

And then he's, yeah, and but he's really proud of himself. It's really lovely. He could like go, yeah, I did too. Nights in a row, what can you do? What will you give me if I do three nights in a row?

Jo

And this could get expensive. Yeah, I'm not paying them off.

Mark

But but it is uh yeah, so I don't I don't think it will last but for for three nights in a row now. We've uh we've all had good nights sleep Which is fantastic.

Jo

Oh, wow.

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What the flip.

Mark

So, just what the flip moments to cover now. Have you got any what the flip moments, Jo? Or are you just bracing yourself?

Jo

Do you do yours? And I might think of one.

Mark

I might suddenly go, Oh, hang on, no, I do know one. Right. Jay came up with a joke. So I'm going to do the joke, and then I'll do what I followed. He said, What happened to the Scottish man who provoked an angry bear in prison? Oh, I don't know. He was kilt. That's good. Right, which is good, right? But I had questions because so I said, I like that, Jay, but one question Why what does the fact the bear is in prison have to do with it? And he went, Well, if he's in prison, he's more angry. Yep, entirely valid. It gives more depth to the joke, I guess.

Jo

I can't top that. I don't I have nothing.

Mark

That's devious. I mean, he would be quite angry, wouldn't he? Yeah, exactly. He's got his built character to all of the components of the joke. Another one I was that we were discussing Mount Everest and how difficult it is to climb Mount Everest. And Jay went, If I climb Mount Everest, I'm going to plant a giant Flag on the top that says, Big whoop, you made it to the top. Now try and get down without dying. I mean, yes. Providing a a heavy dose of reality to someone who is very literally on top of the world. Yeah, big Yeah.

Jo

Oh, he's excellent, isn't he?

Mark

The final one I have is Jay was obviously completely infuriated by something that Tam had done. I don't know what. And I just heard him shouting down the stairs, Mummy, I will flay your skin and call you Jonathan

Jo

Get I have quest why Jonathan? I don't know

Mark

I mean he did neither to be fair so it was empty threats.

Jo

Yeah.

Mark

Thankfull So he keeps the gift that keeps on giving, my boy. So all that remains for me to say is to the audience, thank you so much for listening. Obviously, a huge Thank you to you, Jo, for coming back and joining us on the Neuroshambles podcast. I will repeat my nonsense about the socials. We're on Facebook and Instagram and Reddit and threads, and people are sending some really lovely messages. If there's anything you want to hear us talk about, then send it to hello at NeuroShambles dot com. Um, I will do my normal sign off, which is thank you and have a nice life. And Jo, you wanted to give us a special additional now fuck off how rude