School: The Primary Years | Grace Lockrobin

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 49 of Neuroshambles. As ever, it is lovely to have you back again after my brief hiatus over the Christmas period. Hope every one of you managed to survive the inevitable festive dysregulation with vaguely the same amount of marbles you started it with. I just wanted to kick off this episode with a small public service announcement, if that's okay. During my month off in Inverted Commas I spent a lot of time, probably a bit too much time, putting together a shiny new Neuroshambles website that's got. A bunch of information about the origins of the show, links to other podcasts have appeared on, and full transcripts of every episode for you. The website address is neuroshambles. com, so I heartily encourage you all to check it out, if only to reassure me that the time I've spent on it hasn't been entirely wasted. There's also a great feature on the contact page which allows you to send me a voice recording. What a time to be alive. So if you've ever felt like contacting me about your own Neurodiversity Champions, tiny epic wins, or what the flip moments, but didn't really fancy typing it all out, there's now a much easier way to get it off your chest. Please feel free to avail yourself of the facilities because it would be magnificent to hear from you. Right, now that lot's out of the way, you've got a cracking episode ahead of you, so I'm going to dally no longer. Let's get going.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So, this week sees the return of one of my guests from season one of Neuroshambles, and I really enjoyed my conversation with her back then. So, I've been wanting to get her back on ever since. But, as you know. Life happens, so it's not really been that easy to coordinate. However, my persistence has paid off, and I am really pleased to have been able to entice her back on for another chat. It's Grace Lockrobin. How are you doing, Grace? Hello.

Grace

Hi. Hi, Mark. Thank you for having me back.

Mark

It's taken a while, but it's okay. So obviously, it's worth just checking in with you, seeing how things are going in your world since you we last spoke. which is about two years ago probably.

Grace

Yeah, there's been developments. There's been ne developments in this sort of neuroshambolic area of life. So I've got two kids, two boys. They are now nine and seven. And then there's me and their dad and a dog at home. And the oldest one has been diagnosed with ADHD since we last spoke as well, which I'd long suspected.

Mark

So he was diagnosed autistic and everything.

Grace

He was diagnosed autistic, yeah. So he's autistic and and ADHD, and that was this year. And the little one's been diagnosed with ADHD as well. And he's also been screened for dyscalculia at the moment and dyslexia, little guy. And I've been diagnosed with ADHD as well. Wow, hooray! So we have seriously, yeah, we've been busy. We've upped the le the letters, the postnominal letters. So that's really yeah, that's all been happening. And also as quite comedic I've got finally got my PhD after 14 years. Right, okay. So some other letters that are not related to neurodivergence, but certainly neurodivergence probably got in the way of Me finishing it in a timely manner, BF So yeah, more letters in the alphabet soup.

Mark

Do I have to call you Dr. Lockrobin now?

Grace

Well, I've told the kids they've got to call me Doctor Mummy, so I'll leave that one with you, Mark. Well, thanks, Doctor.

Mark

It's absolutely a treat to have you back on. Oh, man, you've really put me to shame with what I've achieved in the last two years.

Grace

Poor show of just one extra diagnosis. I am I must say though that I set myself as a sort of New Year's resolution that I wanted to help the kids. figure out what was happening with ADHD. And I and I've never set myself all my sort of New Year's resolutions are always around like exercising and getting really skinny. Which I never do. So this year I thought, whether I do something that would actually make a difference for my family and that I might be able to accomplish.

Mark

And you nailed it.

Grace

And we managed to, but you know, we got them private. Diagnosed, and we use disability living allowance back payment, which I didn't, just in case anyone's listening and not aware that they could do that if they're based in the UK. disability living allowance doesn't necessarily require a diagnosis. Both of my kids are entitled to it. You wait a long time to get it and they gave us a back payment and then that allowed us for both children to be privately diagnosed in just a few months. So if any if that can help anybody, go for it, because it made a massive difference to us.

Mark

Yes, thanks for that heads up. You do have to strap in for the forms though, because they are Oh, they're like the worst ones aren't they? I think they're insane. I think that's probably longer than your thesis, wasn't it?

Grace

It was epic, and obviously the DLA don't write the forms for you.

Mark

That's not to put anyone off, just to give you fair warning. Okay, well thanks for telling me about the goings on in your neuroshambolic household. We will wade into this week's topic of the week because there's lots to Discuss here.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

We've already covered some of the challenges our neuro-exceptional kids face at school in the early years episode of Neuroshambles. That I did with my wonderful guest, Helen Daniel, in episode 36. If you haven't already checked that one out, I heartily encourage you to do so. In that particular episode, we went from nursery all the way up until the end of year two. But obviously, there is so much to discuss about The different facets of our kids' experiences at school, that I wanted to split it up into several different episodes to give us time to explore each one more fully. So, this particular episode focuses on the second half of primary school, which is key stage two, or junior school, or middle school, or whatever you call it, wherever you might be in the world, in the country. Either way, it's the ages of seven to eleven that we're going to be focusing on, which is a whole new bumpy terrain to navigate when you have neurodivergent kids. Oh, sweet Jesus. Because this is the thing. I think this stage of primary school, certainly from my perspective. is where things tend to change more dramatically for our kids. I think in the earlier years there are signs that there are things going on. and things start to emerge, but really, it really starts to blossom in the sort of early year of primary Not only for our kids, but also for parents as well, because we're just learning to navigate all of that as well with our kids. And I don't know if you feel the same Here, Grace, and how it was with your lot.

Grace

Yeah, this is the age where I start getting this sort of scary sense of the chill of the gulf opening up between my kids and their peers. When they were little, I had lots of different uh ways of explaining to myself what was going on. my youngest is young for his year and that kind of thing. And now that they are more established in school, I start thinking they're you know, it would take years and years of intensive tuition and input to make up this perceived, on my part, gap between them and neurotypical peers. And I do a lot of work to not think about to make to think my kids are running their own race and never mind what the other kids are doing and then every now and again, you know, th um sort of thoughts pop into my head about where they need to be by the end of primary to cope with secondary and that and it gets in my head and I worry a lot about this sort of yeah, this gap I see, widening and widening and widening. So it is a hard time for parents as well as the kids, especially if I'm proj projecting or putting any of that on the children. I mean, I try not to, but they will pick up a bit of my kind of ant and it's so hard not to do, though, isn't it?

Mark

You know, if you project too far ahead, it can be a real worry and go, look, you know. These are going to be in the same job market as you. Come on, don't raise your case on this thing. So you start to sort of compare them in that sense. And I think that's a real You know, I've given up on that nonsense. Now I'd have to sort of check it. And I think I've said this on a previous episode, but me and Tam were very much of the mind of like, we've just got to get them through school, not necessarily with major academic achievements, but with their mental health as intact as We can, which is never going to be easy with the challenges that they face, and it's never going to be fully intact because it's an absolute shit show in there.

Grace

That is the right way to think of it. And that has to be your main priority. And I thought I had already, like last time I spoke to you, I thought I was at peace with my kids running their own race, but it's all come back in again for me. I started doing. handwriting practice after school with my kids for 50p a pop, right? They've got two glass drawers with the names on. And I thought I thought, I'm just going to chuck money at this situation because my kids they have to write I have to write. I've you know, I've given up on writing for too long and I've changed my mind. I'm going to hothouse my kids and they're learning to write. I like everything I ever try. It's caused so much damage and anger and furious rage. And each kid's got like about 20 quid. Of like blood, sweat, and tears of 50 P's, and we'll stop doing it as with every initiative that I bring into the house. And I'm looking back thinking Has that made the children have a more positive attitude towards writing? No, it hasn't.

Mark

I mean, at least you've got twenty quid towards the therapy page. Exactly.

Grace

And again, that was born out of me thinking, oh my God, everybody else can write and my kids can't.

Mark

But I do exactly the same because particularly with Otto as well, with handwriting. He's really resistant to handwriting, but also just trying to catch him up because he's been out of lessons for so long, and we wanted to make sure that because you know, like you say If they fall further back, then they go into the class and then they can't pick up the lessons where they carry on, and they fall further back. it just becomes exponential. So, yeah, I tried doing some some uh homework books with Otto. Why? I'm just not cut out for it. And it just brought like home schooling and Covid Flooding back, yeah. Like, I am not a teacher.

Grace

It is honestly, it is really. I'm not one for using the word triggering, it is very triggering of COVID times, like, and I think it just uh me and my older son are the worst two people to sit in a room together and do a task. It just instantly turns into like really like weird psychological digs at each other. Like it's just not And that I sorta I do a sort of fake patient voice, which really sort of winds him up. It's just me summoning every like bit of like reserve I've got not to go mental and it it comes across Is really passive-aggressive, it's awful.

Mark

Yeah, I know. I'm never... I'm not... I'm not at my best. I am definitely not at my best when I do it because I'm doing it while I'm trying to get dinner going as well.

Grace

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

So I'm like, it's absolute insanity. And there was a point the other day where Otto had just had a really tough day and I tried to get him to do it and I put the homework in front of him and he just Put his head in his hands, and he started sobbing. I'm like, What am I doing?

Grace

Yeah,

Mark

like you know, this is too much for him. Not like I've been absolutely forcing lots of work onto him, but you know, it's one of those ones where you're like, just the you're I think that you'll be better served by having more of an awareness of what you can and can't handle. Advocating for yourself and having at least a shred of your mental health intact by the time we get through this, than you will by having, you know, nine A-star GCSEs and A superiority complex.

Grace

Yeah, no, you're totally right. And I often think, like, if an adult feels like there's a task that they just cannot face doing, they're allowed to just not do it. If they can't face going to work that day, they can not go to work or call in sick or quit. And I try and bear that in mind with my kids that, like When they're telling me explicitly or through their behavior that they can't cope, I've got to listen. And I've got to credit them with that. That they can't, they can't, they can't.

Mark

Well, they're advocating for themselves, I guess. Yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? So one of the trickiest elements, I think, of transitioning from the end of key stage one, when they're sort of six, to the start of key stage two, which is about seven, is that it's a very different educational environment. Since my recent episodes with Pete Wharmby as well, I've become hyper-aware of how much our kids' difficulties with transition play in their lives. And looking at that move From the end of key stage one to the start of key stage two is a major transition for them because you've not just got a new school in many instances, not everyone, but most instances you'll have a new school, but you'll have new teachers. new classes, new people in your class. It'll be a bigger school, so there's more year groups, which is absolute carnage when you've come from a tiny little nurturing infant school into a much bigger junior school. you have more different subjects as well. And also, I think the focus of the learning changes. So rather than being like, hey, let's just play and just Discover what we can find out about this flower. It is much more teacher-led learning rather than learning through play, and I think that can be quite quite a difficult thing to get used to when they're that age.

Grace

Yeah, definitely. And I I my my seven-year-old, he's a as I mentioned, and I constantly mention, is very, very young for his year, but he's already like maybe two years below where he should be in terms of what he wants to do and his sort of his his sort of personality and his is sort of just where he's at. And he regularly says, I miss nursery. And he's in year three now. So he really, really longs for every year that he's previously left. So the transition from year two to year three was also difficult, but all the ones before were two. And it is um like f freedom to play with Play-Doh, with San, to run around outside for long periods, he really misses it and mentions it regularly. And for his brain and his personality much more formal learning. It's really, really difficult for him. No, his his brain is really working against him in terms of like the expectations on what his body is supposed to be doing, what his mind's supposed to be doing. He really it's I I regularly think he's in the wrong year. He's in the wrong year group. And I think many child I think as you what like underneath your sort of kind of comment is kind of like whether this whole teacher led approach is suitable for loads of kids, and including neurotypical kids. And the answer is that it's probably not, that there should be more play in exploratory learning and inquiry based learning and stuff. All of that should play a bigger part going right through the early years, year one and key stage one and the Key stage two, but I think for some neurodivergent kids in particular, who learn through exploration, through getting messy, through sort of sandbox type activities where they can that are quite meditative and quite sensory, it's har it's rough for them, I really feel for him.

Mark

Yeah, no, absolutely. You were saying that he's sort of, you know, younger than where he's supposed to be. He's exactly where he's supposed to be. It's just that he's in the wrong environment. Yeah, he's in the wrong class for him.

Grace

Yeah, definitely.

Mark

He's aware of how he wants to learn, right? He's telling you how he wants to learn, but obviously we we're not in that education system that they can just go, Okay, let's let's let's do physics with Plato or what whatever it is. He's not he's not in an education system that has the capacity or has the flexibility or the understanding to be able to accommodate that. Which is the really, really hard thing about having neurodivergent kids. In this environment. Like it's it's similar with Otto in that he found that transition to formal learning much more difficult because you have to sit down. Yeah. He can't sit down. He can't sit still to eat food. Yeah.

Grace

I feel like when you biologically can't sit down, the fact that sitting down is so incredibly prized at primary school is such a weird thing. Like my little my little one, one of the first times he got a stiff kit home, bearing in mind, I think they have to give every kid in the class a stiff kit at some point during the year for doing anything, like anything at all. So it was getting towards the end of the year and we hadn't had one for him, and so you know they're like you know, scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Mark

They're looking for reasons, aren't they?

Grace

At this point, and they and he and he eventually got one for sitting nicely. And I was absolutely devastated. So, A. they are recognizing that most of the time he's quote unquote not sitting nicely, right? Which is not an educational outcome. Sitting is i educationally irrelevant, right? But also that like that's the best thing you could come up with, like sitting nicely. I thought like This kid is absolutely hilarious. He wants to be a stand up comedian when he's older. He's so playful. He's an amazing dancer. He's really, really good at drawing. Like, honestly, there is other stuff they could have said apart from that, actually. But that in school is like a prized um skill to be able to sit on your bum and not wiggle around.

Mark

And conform.

Grace

Yeah.

Mark

Conform to the what everyone else is doing. And it is yeah, which is really hard 'cause Otto ca he cannot achieve. that and he needs to move and he learns by moving. It's incredible how many things he can do at the same time. It genuinely shocks me. I have to sort of slow him down at the moment. Because he's like, he's firing stuff at me. I'm like, okay, my brain works definitely to yours. Like, I can only really focus on one thing at a time. So, I'm sort of phrasing it in a positive way, but it is true that. there's that assumption that because he's moving around, he can't pay attention. So therefore he has to sit still, which is then impacting on his ability to focus.

Grace

It's also the teacher's needs. And I can kind of I understood it for the first time recently. At my kids' school, I put on a philosophy club. And so it was probably like a majority neurodivergent kids and the level of fiddling. So first everyone was fiddling and I was like, Yeah, you know, people can be fidgetoise. This neurodivergent friendly space. And then back like the third session, I was like, I cannot personally cope with this level of fiddling. So I I sort of also so I was like conscious of the fact that that's like my when I'm listening to like people speaking, like I'm like a laser beam. All I can hear is them talking and I'm really hyper focused on what they're saying. And if there's any kind of fiddling, it's like someone's banging a tambourine. And so I had to kind of think, right, like I have to manage my needs and their needs. But it sort of made me more. Sympathetic to where this idea comes from, the kids have to stay completely perfectly still, and that's a sign of focus and concentration. But it is a mistake 'Cause it's not. You know, your Otto is an example of that. Loads of people are active movers in order to think and and it's not it's not a moral thing. it's not like a and the fat so that's why I objected to being praised. It's kind of like moralizing what is actually a quirk of your neurology. If you're if you've got the kind of brain makeup that allows you to not move your body, then congratulations.

Mark

Some people don't. But I think the thing is for a lot of neurotypicals, that is the norm. It's not like A big deal to sit still, which, you know, obviously looking around my household is making wild that that's a thing. That's why those kids are seen as disruptive, right? And they're seen as naughty, and it's it's just not, and we must we need to do better in understanding that.

Grace

When I first worked in schools, I was never trained as a teacher, but I worked in hundreds of schools and learned a lot about education along the way, and obviously understand more about NeuroDivergence now. But the past twenty years, I've told kids, stop moving, stop fiddling. You know, there have been loads of times that I have been the teacher doing that completely. I had absolutely no idea about the kind of diversity of kids' needs and how to accommodate them. Not a clue. So I sort of I know we're in a different world now, and I'm really glad that my kids have got teachers that are less clueless than I have probably been in the past. But yeah, there's still still a long way to go in the culture of how schools choose to praise and blame and what they choose to focus on, what they choose to like actively ignore.

Mark

Yes.

Grace

And yeah, this sort of like c pat on head, you sat still thing is still is still a thing.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, I think probably we should take a moment to praise the teachers that have to deal with this as well. Because when you've got a bunch of fizzy kids moving around as well, that's a flipping nightmare. It must be. And I'm there from my stand up days, right? When you're trying to get people to focus, hey, I'm saying important shit here. Okay. Look at me, look at me this way. It was never important. I'm saying some things I want you to listen to. And then people are moving around or chatting. It's just infuriating. And I like every single lesson for teachers.

Grace

It's hard when there are loads of different. needs and you're trying to you know, it's it's really difficult. And that I do think, you know, lot I don't want to sort of alienate lots of parents who are listening to this, who are like fighting tooth and nail for the right education for their kids. The feel the teachers are not doing enough, but the kids, the teachers in my kids' school, state primary, just along the road from where we live, are doing a great job. They are great teachers. The head teacher of the school is like send, trained, and gets it. We've got an integrated resource now that my children don't use it, but it's just opened up and it's inclusive for lots of other kids. They're getting taxis and joining our school community. All great, right? So I am really grateful. to some of the teachers and the TAs, like absolutely gorgeous TAs who all deserve OBEs immediately, especially because some of them are sitting next to my children day in, day out.

Mark

Okay, another of the really different things with that second part of primary school is socializing with other kids. Because I think in the early years and key stage one, there's much more sort of like, hey, everyone's a kid and everyone plays with everyone. And you know what I mean? Like, I think as they get. older, they start to become a bit more self aware and they start to become a bit more self conscious and they start to think about how they want to identify as unique humans. So then socializing comes in.

Grace

Just like you said, in the infants, my older son had a little gang of friends, and they are all nice boys and they've got nice parents and stuff. and they all play together loads and they probably recognise that my older son's a little bit different and he certainly has like, you know, uh, puts them through the paces at times. But everything's kind of fine. And it was almost like the stroke of midnight as Key Stage three started. my older son started to have these incredible dramas and fallouts with these group of lads that I think like eighty percent of them were in his head. eighty percent of these issues. Sometimes they were niggly things and people being a bit off with each other. But I think largely I don't know what was happening, but my my son started to become worried about not fitting in and paranoid that people didn't like him and and and and having ridiculously high expectations that only a true friend would do X, Y and Z and anybody else would be an enemy. And and so this very strange kind of obsessive ruminating about whether people do or don't like him. And I think the beginning of self-awareness that some autistic people do feel of like not Being cut from a different cloth, and yeah, and people not really connecting. So, it's um, some of it is really like I'm not trying to totally rubbish his experience, like, some of it is he's really feeling like he doesn't fit in with his peer group. But if you're standing from the outside, you'd think, right. Dude, you've just been invited to this kid's party. He's only inviting four people. You're one of them. They're your little group. We  call them the fact gang, right? You'll go, Excuse me, miss. Did you know, right? So they're a little fact gang. You've been invited to the fact one of the fact gangs. members' parties. Brilliant, you're friends, like that's it. That's what it is to be friends when you're in year three. You go to each other's parties, boom. And he would just be like second guessing it. He's only invited me because his mum's forced him to and he he doesn't really want me to be there and Oh, God, like so it's so exhausting. And that's and and frustrating 'cause they were also thinking, you know, son, you might not have these friends for the whole of primary and you might not have them into secondary and certainly not if you continue like this. And so I can just see him kind of like his anxiety about not really being welcome is starting to manifest and actually then being like, you know what, we don't actually want to hang out with you 'cause it's always a psychodrama when we do. And so I wish I could step into his body, control him for a day and just be totally sound with everyone and mend all the broken relationships and then step out again and let him crack on.

Mark

But I don't work like that.

Grace

No, no, sadly not.

Mark

But it is, yeah, you're right. It's one of those things where it this is is the curious thing of where I think the kids start to develop their own personalities and their own individuality When they get to that age, they start looking around and thinking about who it is they want to be, what kind of music they want to listen to. You know, and they're experimenting early on, so it's not nothing really fully formed, but they are aware that they can be individual and Similarly, as you say, I think some of our neurodivergent kids are aware that they are different and that they don't really care about that. I think that's certainly what happened with Jay. when he was in year three and onwards, is that all of a sudden kids started to look at trying to be cool. Right. And Jay has got no fucking interest in being cool. Why would you be cool? It he is just who he is, which I think is wonderful. And I think, you know once you skip past that primary school bit, that becomes its own thing to celebrate. And it's that in itself becomes cool. But in this sort of weird stage, Being part of a group, being part of a clique is important to self-identity. And so many of our kids don't pick up on that. And if they do pick up on that, they're not interested in it. And what happens then is that they're not included and they are seen as other and as you're saying, in the instance of your son, starts to notice that maybe

Grace

Did did you find with your kids 'cause one of the things my children my children know quite a lot of neurodivergent kids. I don't think they're fully aware that they are neurodivergent, but they do know them. But their actual close group of friends, to the best of my knowledge, are neurotypical kids and I have thought before, like Do I need to get my older son into a Dungeons and Dragons class or something where we can meet some pals who he might feel are a bit more like him? I don't know whether you did anything like that with your kids where they I don't know. I know in adulthood, my absolutely tons of my friends are neurodivergent. Like it's the norm that they are. We've all loads of us have been diagnosed. I know that's a really common thing. We've all found ourselves with each other without realizing that, but it turns out that that's the case. So I was just thinking like maybe I've not done enough for my kids to find their neurodivergent tribe and is that necessary? And have you done that with your kids? I don't know.

Mark

No, I mean in primary school, Jay was not interested In making friends. He sort of almost defined himself away from everybody else as almost like a badge of honour. He didn't want to mess around. in classes and he didn't want to sort of do the things that a lot of other people were doing, so he wasn't ever part of a clique. Now he's getting a bit older So he is 12 now. Dungeons and Dragons was a really good thing for him. He loved that. That was like, you know, I don't think he's made friends. Maybe that'll be a way in. Yeah, exactly. But he's not made any friends from it. Like I said, oh, what's the that you were chatting to that that boy all night? What was his name? I was like, I don't know. He's just he's just an elven rogue. That's all I know. It's like, oh, okay. Like, you know, well, maybe next time, ask what his name is.

Grace

But isn't it funny? Like it's like a it's if he's connecting with this lad about something that he really enjoys and having a nice hour online or however he does it. then that sound. You know, that's that's that's good. And I I I do think like my impulse has always be like, you know, find out his name and Shall I get his find out his mum's number and stuff? And I think my little one is very sociable and he's very, He longs to assimilate, and he's much more emotionally, but he's more emotionally straightforward. So he's got a little group that he calls his squad. And his squad are just a canny little boys. who don't at this stage, bearing in mind he's only just started year three, so I'm probably all ahead of us. But at this stage, they're not always falling out and no big dramas and they just ride their little bikes in the we've got a pump track near where we live, which with loads of bumps and stuff. And then we've got a tiny little road painted on the ground for like for babies and they all just ride their bike on the little babies' road and they don't go into any of the pump tracks. So they're dead s the steady lads who um who don't fall out. So so I can see it's deeply written almost in um with children's personalities. from quite early, what like what kind of social being they're going to be. And my older son, not quite like Jay, but similarly, the desire to kind of assimilate and be like other people and connect and form best budget that he he is comfortable. more comfortable with being alone and being himself than other children are.

Mark

Yeah, and that's I mean I think so Otto is similar to your little one that he hates standing out. He doesn't want to stand Out, and he can't he can't help but stand out because he's such a unique character and he's so full-on, but he really doesn't want to stand out so he blends in by just playing football. And there's a whole group of kids that play football and he's quite good at football, so he gets by. And that's really nice, and that's really lovely for him. But outside of that, these kids now you see start to socialize outside of school and grow up and You know, have different haircuts and you know, think about what they're gonna wear and talk about music. And so he's just not really tapped into that, I guess, and he's not really interested in that. And I think that's where it becomes quite difficult.

Grace

Yeah, that they sort of notice like there's a difference and like they start noticing those those differences between the other peers, might between them and your kid and I do. I don't love the idea of that for my children, but I know the peers have already solved. But I think certainly my older kid, his peers sort of know he's a bit different. I think the little one, I think they're all still a bit oblivious, or they're all quite accepting in the squad.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, I mean, the squad sounds excellent. Do they take older members?

Grace

I have thought been like, hey guys, what's happening on Sunday?

Mark

So India is also, you know, now currently in year three and has had two friends. for a while now, and she's not interested in any more friends. But now she's starting to struggle a little bit because politics is coming in a little Bit, and I think you know, that does tend to happen again in these where for whatever reason someone says a thing, and then that's misinterpreted, and then that gets whispered back to someone else, and it just, you know, and it's it's a part of life, right? But it is heartbreaking to see it because again, I don't think India knows what to do with that So recently she was playing with two other people because she was sort of, you know, for whatever reason wasn't playing with her two friends and she started playing with two other people who were there and um And then she started getting really upset because she only wants two friends, and she'd now just got Doubled her group. And then I just didn't know how to define that because, in her head, she's got two friends, and that's like, you know,

Grace

It's interesting the classification thing. Like, where do I stand with these people? I need to name it. I need to kind of quantify it.

Mark

And everyone is else is not a friend. It's like but you get I oh I see you running around the playground with that dude all the time and you were all laughing and you really get on. It's like yeah, but he's not a friend

Grace

Yeah, no, it doesn't m it doesn't meet the the like, you know, wha whatever the exact extended yeah, my for there was a little while where my older kid was kind of going, There's friends, there's acquaintances, there's enemies, there's, you know, so these different type typographies and everyone's getting the put in the little boxes. And my husband is like, Mate, you know, do mate, you just people you knock about with, you know, like you don't have to 'cause my my husband's very much more like, Don't overthink it, which is like, Yeah, you must overthink it, that's his nature. But yeah, it is button everyone in the little boxes and stuff. I can understand if the social world, you know, is a is a kind of a a difficult place to navigate and at least being able to name everyone and classify them gives you some purchase on what is going on. So I sort of feel bad 'cause I often like, God, it's ridiculous. Like this whole situation is ridiculous. But I do remember myself being a kid and taking the social my social life and the dramas and stuff really seriously. Yeah, it can be gutted by stuff. Yeah.

Mark

I mean, I think for India but I was talking to Tam about this and Tam has a theory that India finds it difficult to concentrate on more than two people at a time in any social situation. So, if you're in a group of four, that's going to be very difficult for her. Because we have got these unspoken challenges that our kids have interpreting social situations, in knowing when to speak, when to take turns with speaking in a group. I think in a larger group, India just clams up. Doesn't really talk.

Grace

Yes. So so many different considerations that you're bearing in mind.

Mark

Yeah.

Grace

It is really hard.

Mark

But at home She never shuts up. So I know that that's her, that's her authentic self, but in a larger group. So I and then again, when she's with that group of of two, she's really chatty and she's really kind of ostentatious and really charismatic. So I think anything.

Grace

She can have that expression, like that social experience and that expression, at least with some kids, is lovely. But I don't know how she manages two. Like three three is a really difficult number for a little gang. in that, you know, potentially always someone's getting their nose put out of joint. So they're well done to her for managing a little trio, I think that sounds.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, but well, at the moment it's She's navigating again because that is the age where people start to diversify their friendship groups and also identify their friendship groups. I think that's what it is. Instead of going, everyone is my friend, it's like, no, these are my friends. These are my people, and then you sort of get into little cliques, and that's where the politics come in, isn't it? Which is Yeah, it's a minefield. Almost as a consequence of these sort of social cliques at this age, you then start to see the introduction. Of bullying, I think. I don't know if you've experienced that with yours, but it certainly happened with Jay around about that age where he was just seen as a bit odd and he was not in any mood. to adulterate his persona for them. So he would you know, I think he was teased a little bit. And he would always say, even if I asked him now, that he didn't care and that they're just idiots. But I think deep down that's got to affect them.

Grace

Oh, it's like I don't even know Jay, and vicariously thinking about it makes me feel like I'm going to burst out crying. It's just. awful to to think about. And I know I know kids face it in the resilient and the manage. I am lucky in that, to my knowledge, my kids have not been bullied yet, but they've just the only time I've ever even had a whiff of it when he went up from Beavers to Cubs and there were a fair few older boys and it was his very first session and they were playing some game and he was like, I I'm going to absolutely annihilate everyone in this, he said. and then quite a few kids, because he speaks in a slightly possession accent. Yeah. And a couple of older boys went, I'm going to annihilate everyone on this so just kind of mimicked him. And I thought, and I I I I died a million deaths because I thought that that's a really arrogant way of putting it, and you don't know anyone yet, and you sort of said it in a really posh voice, and now the kids are mocking you. And I felt like I was going to deck the kid who said it. even though it's a completely understandable thing that another eight year old, nine year old child might do. And probably I did the same kind of thing at that age as well. But but since since he's gone, he he has never said there's been any uh subsequent issue and the older he's one of the oldest there now and stuff. And So if that it is an issue at this stage he's not picking up on it. But I um I don't know whether that's it's to come in primary school or whether it's secondary school. But I am and but I I I just dread secondary school for that reason because I've never known a secondary school that's pretty much free from bullying. You know, it's just not a thing. So, yeah, and I think it's difficult, isn't it, thinking about Jay saying, like, in one sense, if he's not completely d defined by whether other kids like him and stuff, then he can be a bit more resilient and say. your middle son and my and my my little son, who are both more a bit like, Oh, my God, please like me 'cause he's much more socially aware and socially intelligent if he realized that somebody was mocking his accent. we would we wouldn't get over that for months. So he's got to I don't know how we're going to do it, but like to thicken him up enough to take potentially some but I don't know. He's so so part of his personality is so fawning and people pleasing and kind of funny and deflecting and stuff that he might develop strategies to kind of "Wahey" his way through it.

Mark

This is where stand-up comedians are born.

Grace

Yes, yes, okay, yeah.

Mark

In the forge of public ridicule.

Grace

Oh, poor little thing.

Mark

Yeah, it was I remember that moment with Jay as well, where where it he didn't really recognise what was going on, I think. And he told me this story and it was like, oh, yeah, that's them. Taking the piss out of you, mate. And it was the I think, and I've told this on Neuroshambles before, but again, you know, it's a relevant story where he sort of he was like, These children were making fun of me. And I was like, why? It was like, I was just meditating. I was like, where were you meditating? And you went, just the sunniest part of the playground. And I was like, and where was the sunniest? I said, Where was the sunniest part of the playground? He was like, Oh, it was the middle of where they were playing football It's like, oh God. You know, I can see I can see what's happened. So he then sort of sets up in the middle of the football pitch and sits cross-legged. He starts going, um Right. So then they all start taking the piss out of him. Not in a in a mean way, but then so he just sort of get goes, Oh, just a bunch of idiots, and he walks off. But they see that they can get a rise from him. So then they follow him. And then they keep doing it until he gets cross. And, you know, which is textbook bullying. It's not, you know, it's just one of those things that kids do. But when our kids don't have the social awareness necessarily or the understanding of how to navigate it. And crucially, I think when they're being picked on because they're different, that's really hard to take.

Grace

Yeah.

Mark

Another thing that definitely didn't help Jay was that when he was in classes, he wanted to learn, but people were messing about because That's what you do with your mates, right? You chat a bit and you play about a bit, and teachers generally let a little bit of that slide because that's also an important part of you know school. But Jay was not on board with that at all. He would get really annoyed that people were talking and not paying attention. And I I think partly there must have been some kind of sensory thing going on. Like there's that noise and I need to focus on this. I'm not here for you guys. I'm here for the guy at the front, right? Who's going to teach me stuff because I've been told that that's what school is, right? So he would get really annoyed, and then he would start telling other kids off, right? Which is never good. Is it? It's never, it never goes down well.

Grace

Um, so he would again totally understandable, but also look not that he knows, completely forbidden. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

He's a narc. So he'd be he'd be telling kids off and messing about and then they'd take the piss out of him for that and the teacher would You know, presumably like, dude, I've got this. I don't need your backup.

Grace

I've got a degree, major.

Mark

Yeah. So that I think alienated him more and more. And it was really hard and towards the end of primary school Jay went into quite serious burnout and he couldn't be in and when he was in he was furious. And one of the hardest things for me, I think, is seeing Jay lose his spark. over over time, you know, from being this just curious, bright, quirky, sort of happy go looky little boy and to that point where socially he was completely isolated. And he was getting really infuriated by his peers so much that he'd be kind of swallowing it down, and just the spark went out of his eyes. It was. That's awful. Primary school was such a difficult experience for Jay, and a huge part of that was the sociable was the social side of it. Of it, I think. You know, and now he's in a different space. He's, you know, he's out of burnout, I think. He's got friends.

Grace

So, this specialist provision is much better.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, it's not without friction. Well, no. You know, he's about to become a teenager, and also these kids are all very, you know, similar. So there's going to be friction, but he's also found people who he legitimately calls friends and, you know, likes likes hanging out with and looks forward to seeing. So Yeah. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's taken a long time to get there.

Grace

Yeah, but what a what a um like f it's like you wish you could say that primary school was different a different experience for him. It's pretty o awful for him to have to go through a lot to get where he's where he is now.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure that's I'm sure that's the experience that so many neurodivergent kids have and why so many neurodivergent kids aren't able to To stay in school. One of the other curious things about primary school, you know, it's not unique to primary school, but it certainly takes on more importance in key Stage to a parent's evenings where you know you already you've stopped you've long since Stopped going and expecting them to go. He's doing absolutely amazingly well. He's top of the class. And, you know, you are now more realistic that really is a more in-depth conversation about how you can accommodate his needs. And how he's coping. And it should be said anyway, parents' evenings at schools are weird because you've got to sit on this tiny furniture. opposite a teacher, and you kind of know that the what the conversation is going to entail, but it feels like you're never quite prepared for it.

Grace

So you're talking about your your sort of expectations becoming more reasonable, right? My kid uh s started school, uh my older kid, in COVID At that time he had no diagnosis, but I sort of knew he was autistic. But I thought I'd keep it to myself and see if any of the teachers mentioned it. And and no one had mentioned anything, but of course it was Covid time, so nobody was speaking to us. So that's partly why they hadn't mentioned it. So the first I found that they had any suspicions of Neurodivergence is I got an automatic invite to ascend Parents' Evening instead of a normal Parents' Evening. And they just made a mistake and they were apologise profusely, but they thought someone had spoken to me. So I was like, Ah, is that a mistake? Or what does that but when I went to the parents' evening, I c I called my mum afterwards and she was really kind of excited and stuff, and I said, um what what's up? And she went, I think I can guess what the teacher said and I was like, what? And she was like, what, he's really clever, like gifted, clever. And I said, no, ma'am, like, I think he's He's got a TA sitting on him to write his own name. They think, you know, they think he's autistic. He's really, really struggling. And my man was like, eh? So I have come From, not that that was my expectation, but I've come from thinking, waiting until they get a load of my kiddies. So, you know, we read him physics books because he can't get enough science. to being like, right, okay, so a parent's evening at this level, now he's in year five, is like, right. Your son's targets are to Sit down for more than two seconds, to pick up his pencil, to start a task, to do one three sentences of the task, to follow instructions, to not kick off, to manage his emotions. It's like seven things that he cannot Do is targeted to do those things and they go, right, we're in the aut you know, we're in the spring term. So his PITA score is currently two, which means no progress. Okay, thank you. See you next term. So it's a kind of like it's a real the lovely teachers who are really, really throwing every invention under the sun at my kids, so I'm not knocking them. But the setup for the parents' evening is like your kid cannot do these things because they're neurodivergent and their aim is to like to look like to be able to finish a task. And I was like, t that's been his target in one way or another since he was in infants. Like this feels like a Sisyphian task. He's never ever going to be able to finish a task, especially if the tasks keep becoming year five size tasks and year six size tasks. My kid. can't finish tasks. He can't do it. The only time he's ever finished a task is when I have sat on him and bullied him and c bribed and cajoled him and written some of it for him and Like, you can't do it, lads. You can't do it. And so it feels kind of, I don't know. When I was a kid, my parents used to come back from Parents' Evening and go, You just done it again. You know, they just said, You were great across the board. Well done. There's a fudge. you know. So so I I thought parents' evenings were kind of happy happy occasions where your parents got told what a lovely kid you are and how great you were at sitting on the carpet, and then that was the end of that. And so I always feel that even when they are really trying to be supportive and nice, the whole vibe is profoundly depressing and that always leave Feeling devastated. I'm always shocked by how much intervention and energy and time my child has been given, and how much I get told they're struggling still. Yes. It's always and the picture that they have of My kid always seems to be like really partial. Like, my little one is a weird little wallflower who's terrified of getting anything wrong, which is like so far away from his personality. This is a kid who's like constantly topless and like delivers every single line shouting. And then my older kid, wrecked with self doubt and can't even though he could probably, you know, he's so incredibly verbal and clever, cannot write like a basic sort of a basic sentence. You you w cannot slash won't because of PDA largely. So it's really like um it's very hard to find any little sh like shards of light in the parents' evenings. They always leave me like feeling like a sort of like deflated balloon at the end of it.

Mark

Yeah, and sometimes as well, I don't know if you have the same thing. It's it's been like that with With all of ours as well. And like you're saying, about them not really seeing the same child of them. They similar with India. They're like, oh, she's really quiet and she's really, you know, just gets on with her work. Like, she is not quiet. Like, she is larger than life in home. And that, which, which to me then starts to ring alarm bells. It's like, well, what? So she's masking when she's there, or she's not coping. And You know, they're like, Oh, sometimes she won't finish her task. And then India told us recently she pretends to be writing when she's not, just she can't be bothered to finish it. She'll pretend to be writing, just so that they'll leave her alone. It feels like sometimes they don't really See the same children that we see, and I think that's partly because we have created an environment at home where they don't have to do that. And we've you know, if you're dealing with PDA, uh, there's a l it's very low demand in in our households. I'm sure yours is the same as mine. So they can, you know, be a bit more free and a bit more Open, but in school that sort of gets squished down, and then that's what comes out in the parents' evening when they highlight that.

Grace

And I think no school could accommodate the way my little kid Communicates what he knows. He absolutely loves topic, right? He's a topic kid, both of my children are. And he's doing Egyptians at the moment, and he communicates what he knows in loads of like non-sequiturs. So he'll just say like, Mum, did you know that they would remove the brain from with a hook through the nose? I'm like, yeah, I didn't know that. Mum, did you know that this Pokémon is got this power score on right, okay. Did you know, mum, that the um Nile is the biggest So they're like these little nuggets of fact are integrated through a torrent of other mad stuff that he's thinking about that has nothing to do with the Egyptians. And obviously the teachers can't have him Do a stream of consciousness of random thoughts in order to understand that also in there is actually lots of knowledge about the Egyptians. So I think they probably do see, funny little um big eyed, glasses wearing, curly headed child who doesn't say a single thing. And yet he's he's soaking up absolutely loads, especially about topic and stuff. But I that's what I again, you know, when we talked at the Sort of top of the podcast about how I get worried about this gap opening up. It's not a gap really between the kids and their peers, right? Because the peers are not my children, these are my children. It's a gap between what I know they're capable of and where I feel they currently are. Yes. Like I know my kids are bright, happy, funny, friendly, intelligent. And I want it's about who I want them how I want them to flourish and who I want them to really be, not keeping up with the Joneses and getting the A start of the nines at GCSE and all that malarkey.

Mark

Yes. And I think I think the challenge of a parent of neurodivergent kids is to understand that who they are, who they can be and who they're going to be is not tied to that academic progress through school in the way that neurotypical kids are. Because, you know, when I went through school as a a neurotypical You know, you hit the milestones or whatever. They're like, Yeah, you know, so you could could try a bit harder at French, but you know, broadly, you're fine at all of them, right? That's it, really. And you're on track and your progress through life and your success in life is pinned to this invisible track that goes through school and past school. And if you stay on track, then you'll be fine. And if you don't stay on track You know, the implication is you're just going to crash and die, right? The implication is that you're just going to, you know, that you're maybe not that serious, but what I'm saying is that your success in life well, the the neurotypical success in life is very closely tracked with how they're doing academically. And the implication is if they do well academically, they'll do well in life. And that seeps into you, into your whole psyche. If you're not doing well academically, you're going to fail at life. And Deep down, I think it's taken me a lot of time to unlearn that and go actually, it's much more important that my kids are well And that they have the skills to be able to advocate for themselves. So all of this this invisible academic track that they're supposed to be following At the moment, I'm not even looking at it. I probably should be. You know, and I think that Tam is probably more aware of it than I am because Tam is a teacher, and Tam probably sees. the longer term trajectory. But at the moment, I'm like, it's not as of much importance to me at the moment. But that's a hard thing to get on board with. You know, it's nothing like that.

Grace

You obviously, obviously care about your kids massively and describing it as a process of unlearning is right, that's bang on. And I think I am s like behind you in that process of unlearning. Because also because maybe I'm like more I'm you know, I'm co director of an education charity. I've worked in education my whole life, but I've never been a sort of paid up sort of member of the teaching profession. I've never I've always been interested in countercultural education. I've never been wedded to accountability measures and grades and things. So I can kind of see, you know, outside and what it looks like outside of the system. I think I am. There is a deep part of me that's like, but the but but everybody but everybody else and the and the track. So I think I'm not quite the little kind of part of me that's still kind of clinging on. But I do fully agree with you that the kids well being and sense of self and stuff is unbelievably more important than all the other stuff. And I think about the story you were saying about Jay, he can, as he becomes a young man know that he survived, even though it was barely primary school. He survived it, he came out the other side, he found an education and people that he can connect with. and that sort of part of his mythology is he becomes a young man. And other kids who say it's origin story, it is, right? He's become a Superman coming out the other side. And I think kids who sail through things, their first major adversity is all ahead of them. They've got to cope with some adversity that's coming down the road for them that's not there yet. But our kids are developing th this kind of You know, they're living through this and overcoming a lot of difficulties, and that's something to be celebrated that's forming them as people for better as well as

Mark

Worse, yeah, absolutely. One of the other issues that you have with the parents' evening is that they give you a you get a tiny slot, right? Because they expect you to go in and go, Right, okay, yeah, good at this, good at this, need to work on this, off you go, right? Great, we love her, love having me class, fantastic. They are not the conversations that they have with our kids. So if you're a parent of a neurodivergent kid going into parents' evening, you are very often Holding other parents up. You just got these people tutting or tapping their foot in the background as you're sort of like listening there and trying to, you know, I don't want to be listening to this either. To be honest, I'd rather be, I'd rather be moving on, but these are important conversations to have to kind of understand that what my kids struggles are.

Grace

One way I can speed things up a little bit is when I look through my kids' books 'cause they hardly write anything, so I just flick through, there's not much in there and I'm done.

Mark

The kids' books, they're yeah, when you're waiting. I don't know if i if if if this is generic to all primary school. When you're waiting to see the teacher, they will have like the kids' books on display, right? So in a box of all the books So yeah, you're right.

Grace

Here's what your child has not accomplished this term. And I can yeah, like I say, have a quick flick through, realize it's nothing and then go into the middle of the day.

Mark

All the things your child started. So you look through that book and there's a lot of blank in there and you you get through it and you're still waiting. And then you go like, Well, I'm gonna have a look at a Love the Kids book. Have you ever done that? Don't do it. I haven't done that.

Grace

I got really close to tears once. I visited it was actually the book of a a friend's child and they were in before me. And they came out with massive big smiles. And I just thought, ah, I'm not even going to ask. I'm not interested in how your kid did. With their lovely handwriting. 'Cause my kids all not they either do nothing or um my older one destroys. So there's a fair f it's quite comical, there's a fair few screwed up um worksheets that obviously a TA's lovingly tried to pr stick back in and smooth and flatten out. So as soon as he makes a single mistake, he's like, No, fuck it, scrumple So um yeah, hers was everything was flat in her book, which I which I also noticed, suggesting that it hadn't been scrambled up. But yeah, stay in your late book. Yeah, yeah.

Mark

Yeah, it no it is, but it is quite hard reading those reading other people's work and going, oh, this is where This is you know, this is where the kids yeah, don't do it, guys. If you if you were tempted, don't bother. Yeah, that's all I can say. So another of the facets of Key stage two is really where homework starts to come in. which we've touched on a little bit, but it it might be worth going into the unholy nightmare of trying to get our kids to do homework because You know, I don't know if you're on one of those the homework apps or whatever, however the skill corrects.

Grace

We got the whole gamut. We got apps, we got worksheets coming home, we got um Eat your friend the emails encouraging us to do things like walk around the house and find various things that we've got lots of different options. I personally find Even the choice overwhelming in terms of the different platforms. That was like assuming that my kids would do any of it, which they won't. So our schools also confusingly but helpfully, in a way, said we know that it's such a pressure point with both of your kids that you just don't have to do it if it's not worth it, if it's going to upset them. So thank you to School for doing that. But also My kids are both at least my younger one is working like two years below his peers, so a lot of the homework that comes through is just too hard for him. So I do like a little year one workbook with him at the moment. Which he absolutely cannot stand and hate. Um the older ones also do these timetables things on my phone, which they absolutely hate. Can't get aboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any kind of writing project that could be quite fun because it's creating a story and stuff. Nope, that's not happening. And I've tried, as I mentioned earlier, bribery. I've tried connecting it to gaming, which just create because gaming itself already creates horrific meltdowns. So if gaming's Contingent on homework, then I'm a child abuser because that's like the worst thing I could ever do. So I've tried everything, and largely what I do is go to like, is this is homework gonna happen tonight? And just sort of put the feelers out and then think, probably not, I'll just leave it. And then every now and again, I do get a bit of homework out, maybe like every three weeks or something, I'll get something.

Mark

Yeah.

Grace

And that's great.

Mark

Yeah, I take that as a that's a win. But it is those constant the emails. It's the emails and the like, hey, you've got a new message on the homework app. It's like Yeah. You know, this is all very well telling me that I don't have to worry about homework, telling your ki telling you that they don't have to worry about homework. Can you stop sending us the emails then? Like that? Because that just sits on my brain. I'm like, oh God, I've got to try and try and get some sentences about Egypt out of him.

Grace

Yeah, it's mental load and also it is a bit comparative because I'm like, are there some parents? So we're literally doing spelling, times tables, a written homework, like m maths and geometry and all are they doing all of that stuff?

Mark

There are some children who are wanting to do that shit.

Grace

Yeah. And and so then I start thinking, oh my God, you know, if we're doing ten minutes every three weeks or something you just start getting this this sense of like, oh, I am failing. I do sometimes think, you know, we'll be talking about like safeguarding our children's well being, listening to what they're saying when they say they can't manage, right? So preface that by saying this, but the little voice in my head sometimes goes, Yeah, but like, if you were just a bit more of a hardass with them and, you know, like really had to would would would that like is there any part of this that where it's actually me thinking that I'm caring for them and being overly permissive and ruining their future? And I think that that little wiggly whiny noise in my head was why I started this handwriting tip that I've now abandoned. Because I I'm back now to think to agreeing with you that we know our kids and we know when they're not coping and when to just not It on the head, but it's a little back and forth for me because I sometimes think, like, oh, I don't know.

Mark

It's constantly guilt.

Grace

It's guilt.

Mark

It's constant guilt. You feel guilty for not doing homework with them. And I feel guilty for then trying to make them do homework. And it's like, I can't fucking win. I just inherit the guilt all. All the time. I get guilt from the school when I'm not responding to emails. So I'm sort of mired in this guilt. And just to sort of g you know, come back to your comment about do I get hard ass on them? Because, you know, how well does that work for you, Grace? Yeah, yeah. Because the reason that they aren't able to access it. It's not because they're being lazy. It's because they can't. They want to do well, right? And it's understanding that. They're not just being defiant. And that's the thing I keep coming back to is that. you know, when I was trying to get Otto to do his his writing and he just put his head in his hands and he started sobbing. It's like You want to please. He really wants to please. He just can't. So just take that pressure.

Grace

I think of it as like, but you know, his brain won't let him. like I I find that quite helpful way to frame it because I had always thought of people as being their brain and you know and so he won't let himself is the way that I would have thought of it, or he won't is how I would have thought about it, you know, years ago. Um, he's got to do he he can write, but he won't. And I try to think of it much more Now, as his brain won't let him, I can see like they've physicalize this internal struggle, and it's not defiance, they're not being naughty kids. And also I'm not being a shit mum. You know, I am uh trying to balance the different things that I think are important, but ultimately I am you know, tuned into their needs. And I do know that for them to emerge out of primary school in one tact mentally and is is the goal.

Mark

It's the only goal, right? Yeah, it's the goal. Yeah. So one of the other things that comes in into Key Stage 2 in primary school are the sats. um which are another level of nightmare for our kids. For people who don't know, whose kids aren't of that age yet in the UK or if you're overseas. SATs are statutory assessment tests which are given to primary school kids to see how they're progressing against the national curriculum. So as we Say, like against that invisible line of where should they be on this timeline. And they're given in year six when kids are aged 10 and 11. And they make up, there's a bunch of papers. There are three English papers. There's a reading paper that is to assess comprehension, and that is an hour long. So, already not really geared towards my kids, are they? Then there's a grammar and punctuation paper and a spelling paper. There are also three maths papers. So there's a thirty minute arithmetic one and there are two reasoning papers for maths, which are 40 minutes each. And they're also assessed on their writing and their work throughout the year. So as we said with parents' evenings, not much evidence to go on. I can't imagine that's going to be glowing. They're supposed to be low pressure, and the idea is that they're used by teachers to gauge what additional support they'll need. And also to be able to group kids by ability when they get to secondary school. So this is like the last year of primary school, just before they get to secondary school, then they can kind of, you know, use it to inform their secondary education. But it doesn't matter how low pressure they think they're making it. They have no concept of the level of anxiety That SATS cause for most children, but for neurodivergent children in particular I think it's and for parents of neurodivergent children as well. So, Otto is currently going through, he's so his sats at the end of this year, he's year six.

Grace

Yeah.

Mark

Uh Jay went through his already. So with Jay, he kind of took it in his stride. You know, he was academically able to kind of keep up. I think, and he was fine with it. He wasn't he's not particularly anxious. Uh, so he was able to to deal with it. Uh he actually missed a couple of days off school because he was ill for the first two days of sats. So when he came back into school, they're like, well, you have to make it up. You have to do all your sads So, Jay basically had to sit in a room on his own and do a bunch of tests, which he loved. It was like his dream. He doesn't have to sit with the rest of the idiots, right? So, he was actually quite enjoyed it, and he did pretty well. So that was fine, but Otto is now going through the g current period of time, he's going through his mocks, his mock stats. They're doing mock papers so they know what it looks like and so they can get used to doing It and the build-up to that has been hugely dysregulating for him. He's been really anxious about it because he doesn't know what it looks like. The point of having the mocks, right? But you don't have the mock mocks or the mock mock mocks. Like, there's no, it's always going to be the first time is always going to be quite jarring for him. It's going to be quite dysregulating for him. Him. So for weeks, he's been really sort of up in the air because, again, the school changes, the whole school environment changes. Because, you know, rooms get set up as exam places and things change. So this last week he he did his his mocks and his score were incredible and really supportive. So he's got a a TA Who I don't think is an official TA, but she's just wonderful. And she was she's so supportive and she gets him, and she spends so much time playing football with him. I think she's getting pretty good.

Grace

I have so much love for TA's.

Mark

She's unbelievable. She's so like, and he trusts her and she, you know, he's she is a safe person for him and she's really helped him through it. And he's managed to do this week of getting it done. But why are we putting 10 and 11-year-olds in this position in the first place?

Grace

It's a test for school performance. It's an accountability measure for schools in order for schools to be played off against each other. And the secondary benefit might be some sort of understanding. Of children's progress for secondary school. So, even when I was a kid, I remember my parents telling me that it was just a test for the school, to test the school. So they were very like anti um don't freak out about exams for all of my life. They were like, What's you know, the people tell you that, you know, if you fail this exam, the world'll end, but it won't. But um I remember before I had children and before I even knew I was going to be a a parent thinking, If I did have kids, I think I'd boycott the SATs because I've always had a quite strong uh ideological opposition to Them. Now that my kid is year five, and you know, not like your son on the cusp of SATs, I'm on the fence about whether it would be in his interests to boycott the sats in that if he feels like he's doing some Transgressive or illegal or naughty or something that'll just freak him out. So I think I'd actually have to see how he was faring and what he was thinking and what is that an option?

Mark

Can you just go there? I'm not doing

Grace

Well, yeah, you c you can certainly take your kids out of school for exams. It's just about whether it would so taking your kids out of school on their GCSE day might not be very advisable.

Mark

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it, Grace.

Grace

Yeah, exactly. But the problem is From my working in schools, is that SATS, as you now know with Otto, is a sort of jamboree that lasts the whole of year six. So when my charity goes into schools to offer philosophy to all the kids in school Mo often, very common. All the classes will do it except for you're sick. Sorry, they can't do this incredibly enriching and amazing activity, which is perfect for kids who are eleven and on the cusp of adolescence they're going to be doing their sats for the whole year. And so you can't this is the thing I now understand, I cannot take my kids out for the whole year. So they might miss the exams, but if they're going to Put in all the effort and all the sort of deadening practice, they may as well set the example.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Grace

And so, I don't, I think my kid, my, especially my oldest. His P D A is so intense that the pressure and expectation to do something, he won't write anything. That's my expectation. I don't think you put a plate of paper in front of him that he's gonna do. He's probably not gonna do anything.

Mark

I think a Zan situations for neurodivergent kids. of all different flavors are uniquely difficult, aren't they? Because you've got the yes, the PDA You know, of just sitting down and being given these questions that you have to answer in a time limit, there's a timer ticking down. You've got to do you know, like Otto gets completely freaked out by anything being timed. Yeah, my kids do. Like, he can't handle it. Jay is the same. Doesn't like anything being timed. And I don't know what part of the neurodivergent palate that feeds into, but the timer is an issue. The fact that they have to sit still and do like now fortunately, I think Otto had assistance and support with his. So he basically, I think, walked around a fair bit. He was wiggling all over he was all over the place, I think, yeah.

Grace

But an hour to re to read for an hour. to do it, you know, for a a child with, you know, hyperactive ADHD is not possible.

Mark

Or inattentive ADHD. Of like, how do you focus on all of these different questions? And you know, for autistic kids in an exam situation. Can you stim? Is there like a like are there allowances made for for stimming or fidgets?

Grace

Can get like really fixated and obsessional. So, I think any focus, if there are big events in the calendar where there's a massive focus, exams is an obvious one where it's scary, but even just recently, they had an athlete come into school. and prep and they had to fundraise in order to do some sporting thing. And the the prosp the fundraising forms lying on the our kitchen counter for ages and this day coming, just a day where an athlete's gonna To do in December, even that. My oldest son was like, I'm not getting sponsored, I'm not interested, I'm opting out of this. No, sod it. And it was just the build-up, and exams are going to be like that, right? You know. steroids and that and I think um that's why I think that what we'll get out of my older son is like, nope, actually I quit, I'm not doing it. And then o all I've done so far to prepare him is never, ever mention That staff exist. I just haven't done it at all so far. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, it's not a strategy that's going to take us all the way through year six, but just like I want our home at least to be a bit where we're like, meh. These are exams that are used to test schools to see how whether your teachers are doing a good job. So yeah, you've got to do them. It's a bit annoying, but it's for your teachers, it's not for you, so don't worry about it.

Mark

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

Grace

And I mean, obviously that won't wash because my kid can And you know, he'll find it, but that's how I'm going to start. That's my only plan so far, Mark. No, that sounds like quite like that approach.

Mark

But it actually, they're testing your teachers. They're not testing you, they're testing your teachers. I love that approach. That sounds wonderful. I wish I'd have used that on Otto.

Grace

Well, I'll feed I'll feed back on whether it works, whether it gets any sentences out of him.

Mark

If I'd have used that on Jay, he'd have sabotaged it though. So, another one I wanted to talk about in primary school, in that you know, key stage two, they do also have this in the early years as well, but um, is school trips. Because they sort of evolve a little bit more from year three, really, and they're always tricky for neurodivergent kids Kids, I think, because I think neurotypical kids look forward to school trips. They actively enjoy going out of school, getting on a bus with their peers, going to a place that's not a lesson, learning something random, going back again and maybe doing some follow up work on it. I remember from when I was a kid School trips were great.

Grace

Yeah.

Mark

Not for my kids.

Grace

But fuck no.

Mark

My kids, it's, you know, if you think about it, it's just long coach journeys, uncertainty, and kids getting overexcited. Which you can only imagine how Jay responds to that kind of thing. Being trapped on a bus with people who he doesn't much like when they're underexcited.

Grace

So my little one is is fairly up for trips, and they did some Egyptians trip recently. And it's a museum that we've been to a million times, and it's not that exciting because it's so familiar, but he loved it on the occasion of making a trip. So that was great. But they go swimming, little one, every week as well. And he absolutely he's become terrified of swimming. He's become terrified of the coach. He's worried no one's going to sit next to him. He's worried people are looking at him in the changing rooms. He's w is he's worried about all all elements of it. A couple of days ago I forgot you've got to put them in the swimmies before they go and then they had the first lesson in their swimming costume. Costumes underneath their clothes, and then when they go to the bath, they've got them on, and it's easy to get changed. And one day recently, I hadn't put a swimmies on underneath. I'll put them in your bag, and you can get change when you get there. He can dress himself, but he doesn't often do it. Absolutely no way. The prospect of that, oh my gosh, what if someone could see him naked? And how will he remember which order he puts it all on? So, so that. is is absolutely freaking him out and I've said to him, What is it? 'Cause you go we take him swim to swimming lessons.

Mark

But he likes swimming itself.

Grace

Well, no, he doesn't really. He could because he could never Can't follow instructions and he can't hear the instructor, and he's still in the baby class.

Mark

Does he like being in water?

Grace

Yes, splashy, splashy, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And but I said to him, What is it? And he said, It's weird to go swimming in the middle of the day. And it it just means that like it's not part of a normal school day to suddenly go in a pool. And even though they're like twelve weeks in now He does not consider it a normal part of school and he's out, he's not interested, he doesn't want to do it anymore.

Mark

Otto has the same thing with swimming. He absolutely loves swimming. But when they did swimming lessons at school, he could not cope. It was being on the bus. It was the noise of chattering on the bus was too much for him, and the journey, for whatever reason. And then he'd get there and the whole getting changed thing really freaked him out as well. So I think he went once and then he was at no. So then they said, Okay, that's fine. You just sit on the side while everyone's doing it. He's still got to get on the bus. Right. And then he's worried about what he's doing when he's sat on the side 'cause he's sort of, you know, just sort of twiddling his thumbs.

Grace

Oh, and he's really marked out as being like, I come on swimming but I don't get in the water if he's a bit concerned about what other kids think about him, it's a bit like having a t

Mark

Exactly that. Yeah. So so it took him a while it took us a while to go, can we stop the madness? Can we not can he not do swimming He can swim. He's actually quite a good swimmer. We go quite a lot. So, can we just stop the Sherade? Yeah, just leave it. Leave it. Stopped him out. But yeah, it's it's really tricky, isn't it?

Grace

I don't know whether, like, when I was a kid, we would get a change for PE. And so getting changed at school was a thing, but my kids just wear their PE clothes on P Days. So they've never really had to get changed. Without a mum or dad holding the underpants for them to step into. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it's not happening that. So I think me, like, the suggestion to my youngest that he's to sort of somehow take control of his own dressing. I think that's one of the barriers for him, and that just feels a bit overwhelming, a bit too grown up.

Mark

There are loads of barriers that they they just don't see though that, you know, because as we say, we're sort of Marching to the beat of the neurotypical drum, and you know, the neurotypicals wouldn't really have an issue with it, right? I've actually been on a few school trips with my kids As well, not swimming. Well, partly, I wanted to go to help them through it. Yeah, because I don't like the thought of them being dysregulated and anxious. I didn't go with Jay. I mean, Jay didn't want me, so that's partly why. Otto needed me there, and he had a trip to a Roman villa. So firstly, we didn't go on the coach. We had to go separately. So I drove with Otto, just me and him there, which was fine. And he didn't leave my side for the whole time. You know, and everyone else is doing their own thing. So I'm obviously with the group and I'm helping him through it. But it was quite stark to see how fizzy he was and how little he was able to pay attention and amongst all the other children, because you see these other children having exactly the same experience. With exactly the same teacher and this, you know, but you know, Otto and a few other kids are just not able to em embrace it in the same way and you don't see them in their lessons.

Grace

Yeah, I I think s being a fly on the wall, uh, it's gone both ways for me, being a fly on the wall. Sometimes it's been devastating. to see how they are in a classroom situation. But the one time where it's worked out differently is I went I accompanied one Of the Cubs trips, they went to a mosque, right? I didn't know that my kid knows anything about mosques. The Imam was asking loads of questions to the kids: Do you know what this is? Do you know what that is? Do you know where this is? And just loads of facts. and his hand was just going up thousands of times. He wanted to answer every single question and then he started waxing lyrical about the tiles and the floor and the um main part of the mosque. Absolutely loved them. Where were they from? Their beauty was saying they're exquisite. So it was just like the the trip was only an hour and a half long, so it wasn't too long. It's only like twenty minutes from our house. He got to be like a sort of know-it-all and sort of like he was just obviously in a really good mood. He had a great time. He got feedback. The guy saying, like, yeah, well done, young man. You know a lot about Islam. So like, oh, that was all brilliant. And so that was lovely and topped me up thinking, you know, sometimes he can just He was like he was I was so proud of him and he shone there, but I've been in other situations where he's just struggled so much that we've when we know we've had to leave. And just getting this bit of an insight of like is actually this is this the level at which he's accessing experiences normally? Because it's not. It's not. it's not what they expected.

Mark

Yeah, I think that's the thing. That was what it was like going going on the on the trip with Otto of like, you know, you really constantly needs refocusing and, you know, and reengaging uh and movement breaks and And stuff. It was a different story when I went with India. So I went to a wildlife centre with India, and that was quite interesting because I was assigned a group of kids. Because as a grown-up, they're like, right, okay, it's like a like a little nature scavenger hunter. It's like, here's a sheet of things you need to collect. And here are the kids. And My group was fucking feral. Basically. You see all of these other children sort of neatly grouped and walking across the field and being a bit more systematic and and like getting something and running back to the grown up and like checking it's on the sheet and like right my kids We were just all over the place. They were scattered far and wide. And I think my leadership style has evolved somewhat. Since being a parent of a neurodivergence, because I wasn't alarmed by them roaming, right? I wasn't trying to keep them neat and tidy and ordered. I wasn't trying to keep them near me. It's a very different way of being around kids and letting so my kids had a wonderful time, but we we were universally frowned upon.

Grace

Horrified gasping.

Mark

Our methodology was not approved.

Grace

Well, we got it done. Next time you volunteer to help, they'll be like, We're good. We're good for being volunteers. Thanks. Come on.

Mark

But no, it was um it was it was a marked difference. And I think part of that is because of my experiences of raising neurodivergent kids. And they definitely had the most fun in migrating Might not have been the most productive, but you know, we had a good time.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, let's look at the positives now. As I said in the early years episode. There's not a massive amount of positives to take from their experience of school. I'm really sorry if it's felt like Grace and I have been wallowing a little bit here. But sometimes when you think about school, it's fucking hard, isn't it? It's really challenging for our kids and it's challenging for for parents. So we try and find some of the positives. One of them, I think, is that you do find other parents who are in the same boat. You do meet other people who get it. There's a whole load of them that are not in that boat, and you know Ironically, we're the ones drowning.

Grace

Let's get in your boat, mate. Go on.

Mark

But you do meet other people through this experience in primary school, particularly as kids needs Become a bit more apparent. You know, certainly there's a few more people who've come out of the woodwork now that were not aware that their child was neurodivergent and now are. So they are friends, and that's a positive. Have you got any positive?

Grace

You know what we were talking about earlier, where children are kind of able, starting to be able to recognise difference but also accept it. Yes. I do see flashes of like my older son's friends. being patient with him or even celebrating his some of his quirks and things occasionally. And I hope my little littlest kid, I hope his little squad continue to be really like Canny with each other and just appreciative of each other's differences. And um and I hope maybe the older ones, friendship groups can kind of manage to kind of pull through as well.

Mark

I think the kids in primary school You know, aside from the odd incident of ostracising kids like Jay for being a little bit extra. and for telling them off for not paying attention and for meditating in in the middle of their football match. But I think generally the experience of my experience of kids of that age is that they're still pretty open to accommodating neurodiversity and they're still pretty understanding of it. And, you know, Otto's little group of friends has been really great. You know, they play football, but he's got some really lovely kids in in his class. And it's been really nice, and similarly with India. So, I think at this age, although the social friendships are starting to evolve. There's still room for acceptance.

Grace

Yes, a bit of room for acceptance. That's a nice way of putting it.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions

Mark

Okay, it's neurodiversity champions time now, where we look at any people or organizations who are doing wonderful things in the world of neurodiversity. Have you got any neurodiversity champions for us, Grace?

Grace

Yeah, I've just been thinking about my kids go to karate, right? No adults are allowed to go in, so I've never known. What they do in there, right? And sometimes I get weird reports. I think they do like mixed martial arts, and sometimes they're boxing, and sometimes they're just like fighting on the floor. And it's all a bit like weird and dodgy. But actually both of my kids did a grading. They're not into belt badges and belts and and and achievements in any kind of way, like they've never been interested. And so when this option to come do the grading came up, I was like, oh, not for our family, but they wanted to do it. And we're both terrified and it was a horrible experience. And then they did it and they've got their belt I can't I forget what colours, I don't know things about sport, but they've got they've got some belts of some colours. And they both did a little bit of karate for me last night and I don't know what I'm looking at right with so I'm not a concert. But the boat because the boat, you know, these are children who cannot swim for toffee. They're they're really quite malcoordinated like their mam. But they were doing these lovely sequences and like uh of of moves with quite a lot of like discipline and sort of bodily integrity and just really looking like speaking a physical language I've never seen before. And I was like, oh Karate Zone, who who run these sessions are really neurodivergent friendly and the guy who runs it is passionate about including kids when we first said how could our kids come in the Diversity was like, of course, and so he has spent 45 minutes a week with my kids, and I've never had this window into what he does. And he's created this opportunity for them to learn in this new way. I'm really grateful to him and to his commitment to like including. kids 'cause mine are getting massively getting money out of this. Amazing. And so thank you to him. And more generally, to people who provide after school stuff. for neurodivergent kids that's inclusive for them. It's so hard to find anything that would actually suit your children. So kudos to those people who do that.

Mark

So what's the name of the company that do that?

Grace

Karate Zone, it's called in uh in Sheffield. Yeah, I think they I think they're across South Yorkshire. I'll share it with you.

Mark

Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes. This is weirdly well timed in that Jay went to um he wanted to try some martial arts, so I booked him on to um like a kung fu thing. And similarly, I wasn't allowed in either So I which is weird. Yeah, it's like Fight Club, isn't it? You're not allowed to talk about Fight Club. And so I sort of was just pacing around outside for ages. Going, I don't know what's going on. Like, I don't know if he's getting how he's getting on or whatever. But also, thinking, I hope he likes it because he needs a hobby. I hope it's something that sticks. And he he came out and went How did it go? And he went, It's a no And I was like, I drilled into it. I was like, why? What was wrong with it? And he was like, we had to do loads of practice and lots of exercises. You know, they're not just going to put you in a ring and ask you to fight other children. He was like, Yeah, that's what I didn't like about it. It's like, no, this is like he's expecting this sort of like illegal cage fight or something with children. Having a good idea.

Grace

I request my black belt immediately.

Mark

Exactly.

Grace

That's so familiar, that sense of like instantly starting and trying something new and instantly expecting to be like a sensei, otherwise, I'm marching out.

Mark

Yeah, so um so it's a no from him. I don't quite know what we are gonna find where he will instantly be like fully qualified. Unless there's lessons in acerbic wit, and then I think we might find his niche.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins!

Mark

Okay, it's tiny epic win time now. These are the things that to a neurotypical family would be absolutely run of the mill, not worth writing home about, but to neurodivergent families they are epic wins. Do you have any for us, Grace?

Grace

I'm going to call back to those belts and say, we don't know what they mean, but the colourful belts are in our house, and it's apparently it's a thing. Yeah, totally.

Mark

Yeah, that's amazing. Um, my tiny epic win is from Otto. He loves Pringles. Our kids love Pringles. I think there's a like it I think it's a thing for neurodivergent kids, right? They are they are yeah, I mean like you're not just I mean, I love a Pringle as well, but I think they're uniquely appealing to neurodivergent kids because the shape There's the shape thing, but also the uniformity.

Grace

That shape has got a special name that my husband likes to point out every single time he eats one. Hyperbolic paraboloid.

Mark

Oh, okay.

Grace

Okay, a hyperbolic paraboloid.

Mark

Yes, there we go. So. I think the reason that Pringles are so appealing to neurodivergent children are because they are a hyperbolic paraboloid. So Pringles are a unique shape, but also they taste the same every single bite. And that is very comforting to neurodivergent children, to whom food is unpredictable and sometimes inconsistent. So there's that, and I asked Otto if he wanted some Pringles, and I gave him the tub of Pringles And he took it and he left the room, and he came straight back in the room. He went, Can you put some Pringles into a bowl? Because I can't choose when to stop. And for him to have that awareness and then also think of a strategy for it and go, no, but if you put it in a bowl, then I won't eat them all. Now, I don't think it was anything to do with concerns around his health. Or anything. I think it was because, like, he was told that those prickles had to last the whole weekend. So, therefore, he was like, he wanted to make sure that there was enough tomorrow. But the fact that he was aware enough to do that was an epic win for me.

Grace

That's awesome. Maybe you can do that for me next time I open the bottom with a tub of Pringles. You might like the shape of them, but you can't have a whole packet.

Mark

You can't reduce your intake of hyperbolic paraboloids.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, what the flip moments now? These are the moments that our children will say or do something that completely bewilders us and leaves us helpless, not knowing what to do next. Do you have any what the flip moments you want to share with us, Grace?

Grace

Yes, my older one said uh this is back to homework, but I said this was just uh this morning. I said, we're going to do some homework tonight because we really haven't done it in two weeks now. And he went, Mum, you're a cute puppy, but you're barking up the wrong tree with this one. You're a cute puppy.

Mark

Oh, my God. That's amazing.

Grace

Thanks, man. Sounds I love that nice and sort of weird but also defiant it's like it's like

Mark

It's an adorable way to be defiant.

Grace

Perfect way to say stick it up your ass, I'm not doing your homework. I was all distracted by the puppy bit and I missed the absolutely no way am I doing my homework bit.

Mark

It's all it's all about sugarcoating the pill there.

Grace

It worked.

Mark

I've got a couple. One from India the other day. I don't quite know where this came from, but um she just turned to me at one point and went, Daddy, you're like a light bulb. I was like, why? She went, you're fragile and overrated. Well, fragile? I mean, dude, the amount of shit I have to put up with, I can hardly be called fragile in this household. But it's like such a diss. And also Light bulbs are not overrated. They are one of the single best inventions of all time.

Grace

They are rated appropriately, actually, India. It's not true. Don't listen

Mark

No, thanks. The other one I've got is from Jay, and I wasn't there at the time, but Tam will text me something immediately if it happens. No matter where I am, if I get a text from Sam, I'm like, this is going to be good. And Tam was took Jay to CAMH'S, and they had an appointment at CAMHS. and they got through the appointment okay. And then on the way out, Jay said the following I hope you don't mind me saying, but your smile makes you look like a psychopath. You might want to work on that.

Grace

It's getting better and better.

Mark

I hope you don't mind me saying.

Grace

Of course.

Mark

Absolutely. And it's also you might want to work on that as well. Just a little note for self improvement. You might want to work on that. Brutal, absolutely fucking brutal.

Grace

Thanks, son.

Mark

I'm sure the people at CAMHS have seen a lot in their careers, but Probably not so vivid a truth bomb as that one.

Grace

Yeah, I hope Tam's got um thick skin. This wasn't Tam, by the way.

Mark

This was the person that worked.

Grace

Oh my God, I thought it was Tam.

Mark

No, it's way worse .

Grace

Oh, so healthcare professional? Yes. Okay. That's yeah, okay. That's horrendous .

Mark

Yeah. I mean, me and Tam are very used to it. No. It was to a complete stranger who was there to help him.

Grace

That is proper... that is absolutely no filter, isn't it? Really quite profound lack of filter there.

Mark

I hope you don't mind me saying. And he was on the way out the door as well. It wasn't.

Grace

Just one more thing before we go. I hope you don't mind me saying that.

Mark

Like a particularly brutal Columbo.

Grace

Sorry I've missed the actual full punchline of that, but now I get it. It just helps cement the horror.

Mark

Yeah, brutal. And mortifying for Tam, I'm sure. Okay, that is it for this particular episode of Neuroshambles. Grace, thank you so much for coming back on and sharing your experiences of primary school and um Just a bit of cathartic, really, wasn't it? That one.

Grace

Gloomy, but a pleasure.

Mark

A gloomy pleasure. Like drinking alone.

Grace

Yeah, drinking alone.

Mark

So yes, so thank you so much for coming on and sharing that side of your world. Also, massive thank you to Neuroshambles listeners for continuing to listen and download and Spread the word and interact on the socials. That is fully appreciated. If you want to email me anything about any neurodiversity champions, any tiny epic wins, or what the flip moments. You could email me at hello at neuroshambles. com, or you can contact me on the socials on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. That is about it for now. All that remains for me to say is have a nice life.