Parental Burnout | Liz Evans

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode thirty five. of Neuroshambles. What an absolute treat it is to have you back again, Neuroshamblers. Thank you for your lovely comments since the last episode, including some in person. This is, I've met some Neuroshamblers in the wild, and it was. genuinely thrilling. I did a talk at a conference in Bristol, the Together for Send conference organized by the Bristol Parent Carers Forum, which was a phenomenal event. I think it's happening again next year. So if you're in Bristol, it's definitely worth going to that. But I did my first ever public appearance I mean I've been out of the house before, but it was my first speaking appearance and uh I loved it. My talk was about rewriting the rule book for our neurodivergent kids. So, if any of you are in the market for some of my nonsense in a live talk, feel free to reach me at hello at neuroshambles. com and maybe I'll pop along to your event as well. That'd be lovely. Or do it online or, you know, just have a chat in person. Who knows? I'm not fussy. Anyway, we've got a fabulous episode lined up where I'm going to be talking to a new guest discussing a topic that I think is going to resonate particularly with a lot of You, it's one of those ones where it's a bit of an elephant in the room. We don't really talk about it as parents of neurodivergent kids. So, hopefully, this will expose the elephant and give us lots to think about. As well as that, we've also got your classics, the Neurodiversity Champions, Tiny Epic Wins, and What the Flip Moments. So let's get started.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

This week's guest continues the serendipitous trend of people who were mentioned in the Neurodiversity Champions section of Neuroshambles shortly before our paths crossed via a completely different route. Goes back to episode 31 where Charlotte Mountford discussed this week's guest without knowing that I had actually had an email from her that very day. So obviously, I jumped at the chance to get her on as a guest. So as well as being an award-winning occupational therapist with twenty five years' experience, she also hosts a podcast called The Untypical OT Talks, which I'm a Big fan of. So I am delighted to be able to welcome aboard the wonderful Liz Evans. How are you doing, Liz?

Liz

I'm really good. Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Mark

Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. As we do with every guest that we get onto Neuroshambles, what we'll do is start off by understanding a little bit more about your setup and the neurodivergencies at play there. What are your children sporting by way of neurodivergencies?

Liz

We are neurodiverse in our family. So I have my oldest is neurotypical.

Mark

Okay.

Liz

And my youngest is diagnosed as autistic. He's also dyspraxic, has sensory processing differences. And experiences really, really high levels of anxiety. Right, okay. He was in mainstream school. Academically, does very, very well academically, you know, top of the class for stuff, learning at a very high level, but was Falling apart when he came home in a big, a big way.

Mark

It's recognizable to so many people, I'm sure.

Liz

Yeah, then lockdown came. And we moved schools, I moved home, lots of things happened and changed for us as a family. And He never really quite got back to school after lockdown. He went, but it wasn't ever quite the same. I was never getting him in with regularity. And then his mental health just Fell out of the bottom. It was just awful, a really, really stressful time for all of us. And that presented in him not wanting to go to school. And we kept trying, and we kept trying, and we kept trying. And eventually We were quite lucky in the fact that we got some support from CAMS. I know other people have had not got quite so good experiences with CAMS, but eventually CAMS and I had to say to him You can't keep going. We need it was the risk levels were too high. It was too stressful. He was really poorly at that point. But then I had to rethink my whole career. I'm a single parent. I've got two kids. I've got a mortgage. And I was like, what do you mean he's got to be at home? What do I do now? whilst we'd been through COVID and lockdown, it had been great because I could do everything online. But as we came out of COVID and lockdown, parents understandably wanted OT back face to face. I couldn't do it. I couldn't offer it. So I had to pivot. And I've become the queen of pivoting.

Mark

You need to play netball.

Liz

That's there. You go. Your skills in Netball help you now. Yes. Pivoting you everywhere. Yeah. So that's how the NTCOT launched was basically an online support. And I went for I went down the route for parents because and we'll get onto that a bit later, but because of what I experienced and what I lived through.

Mark

And actually it's there is a massive Call for that as well because, you know, other people are struggling to get their kids out of the house and to stuff. So, yeah, well, nice pivot. Liz. Thank you for introducing me to your setup. What we're going to do now is launch into this week's Topic of the Week. Because in episode 31, when Charlotte mentioned that this was something that you discuss, I was like, ooh. That sounds interesting. Let's get you on to talk about it. So, yeah, I'm quite keen to delve into this topic of the week.

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What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So this week's topic is one that many of us will no doubt be experiencing to various degrees, but I don't think it's something that's very often talked about enough, and that is the subject of parental burnout. Because so much time and energy is invested in advocating for our neuroexceptional kids and making sure their various accommodations are being met at home and in the outside world that it's really easy to lose sight of accommodating for our own needs. And speaking from my own experiences, I am perpetually placing myself at the bottom of the pecking order in my own neurosymbolic household. And that obviously is going to take a toll on me. And I'm keen to get to grips with this knotty topic, to learn a little bit more about What parental burnout is, and maybe how we can tackle it. I'm just looking for some advice, to be honest, Liz. Okay. It's just, you know, just that small bit of advice to solve it for me. So I guess, firstly, we're not talking about your common or garden persistent level of exhaustion that all of our listeners are feeling. You know, that's undeniable. The level of constant overwhelm and exhaustion that we're feeling just getting our kids out of the house or getting them down for breakfast or getting them the right breakfast with the right spoon. You know, it's like just so many micro battles that we have to fight every day is exhausting, but that's different to burnout, right? That's not to minimize the the everyday exhaustion that we're all going through, but burnout is sort of much more serious than that. And I just wanted you to explain a little bit more about that and how that manifests itself.

Liz

I think the difference is is between exhaustion, you know, you get to a point where you can rest and if you do rest, it will alleviate some of those feelings. It will alleviate some of that feeling of being exhausted if you rest. Whereas I think something like burnout It almost feels like it doesn't matter how much rest you get, it's never ever going to be enough. It's the only way I can describe it, and because I've been through it myself, is it's you your bones are tired. It's like a tiredness I've never experienced.

Mark

Yes, okay. And that is the product of so many things that kind of get you to that stage.

Liz

Absolutely. And I think when I talk about it with parents, I often talk about the fact that it's the demand outweighs our capacity over a long over a sustained period of time. So it's not just one thing here or one thing there. It's a constant buildup of stresses and strains and lack of control over what is happening in our lives. And I think for Neurodivergent families or families with additional needs, we're often dealing with systems that we have no control over, environments that our kids don't flourish in. we are dealing with people that don't understand, that we're having to constantly explain, constantly advocate, constantly fight to get what our kids need. we're in systems that seem uncaring and at times, some of us as parents are literally trying to keep our children alive. things are that bad in those families. And to be met with systems that don't care. And as a parent, what's the one thing and I say to my kids all the time and they get really bored. What's the one thing that my job is in like to keep us safe?

Mark

Oh, I I go with Keepers Alive, but uh you might not be safe, but at least you're alive right now. I'm doing my job. But yeah, no, it is. Yeah, absolutely. And we worry all the time. And, you know, let's acknowledge firstly that parenting kids is hard. No matter if they're neurotypical or neurodivergent. When you have kids for the first time, your world completely shifts on its axis. So instead of just looking out for yourself, what do I want for dinner? What am I going to do tonight? everything turns inwards and you isolate yourself to a degree. You focus inwards, particularly in the early years. And obviously, that is a level of mental load that as a parent you've never been used to before. So there's that shock of that. But we're not just talking about that, right? Having neurodivergent kids is so much harder. I liken it to like playing a video game for your first time, but it's on the maximum level of difficulty.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Right? So, and it's your first play through, right? You don't know what the fuck you're doing. You don't even know the controls, right? You're having to work it all out.

Liz

You just randomly press all the buttons,

Mark

And all of the bosses are like maximum level, and you're just like, it's so much harder, and that mental load. Is persistent, I think. And as you say, that it's on so many different levels. The increased caregiving demands is one. It's huge. Yeah.

Liz

I think any parent, any parent, whether they are neurodivergent themselves or digital needs themselves or they come from a family, there are family people out there that aren't in those families that still have the potential to burn out. I think there is this very idealistic view of what a parent should be. We know we shouldn't show emotion, we shouldn't get upset, we shouldn't get angry, we shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't do all these things. Basically, we shouldn't be Human, we should just be a robot. And where that comes from really interests me. And I think some of it comes from our experience of our own parents. You know, sometimes we come out from our experience of our own parenting and think, I don't want to be like that.

Mark

That is very often

Liz

From the way, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, I look at that and go, I'm gonna do the opposite of that.

Liz

And then, and I'm gonna be so much better. Yeah, I'm gonna be so much better and get it all right.

Mark

So, you're setting the bar so high for yourself. Yeah.

Liz

Hugely, hugely. And I think then as well you come out with all this there's you know the books around and the experts around about you should do it like this and the The perfect way to parent, and you know, you should do this when the baby's born, and you should leave them to cry, don't leave them to cry, have them here, don't have there is so much, so much information that I remember even before I knew we were part of a neurodivergent family. being completely overwhelmed. I remember saying to the midwife, just tell me what I need to do. And then she just went, Well, I don't really know. Well and I got and then I got given five different options. And then I thought, Well, that's not helpful.

Mark

Yeah, give me just tell me, just make my mind up for God's sake. Yes. Yeah, no, I know. But you know, actually, the most honest and useful advice is like, no one knows. Just wing it.

Liz

Exactly that. And I think I have a saying that it's you only you do the best that you can with what you know at the time. Yeah. That's what all you can do. And I think where that then changes for some people is that when we discover we are part of a neurodivergent family is we are then constantly now on the learning curve and our all parents are learning as they go along because every day is different. I've only ever parented a five-year-old and that particular five-year-old. Next year, there'll be six and it'll be different again. So they're kind of going along on this trajectory and we are kind of almost going straight up. Ours is like vertical.

Mark

Yeah, it's a very steep learning curve, yeah.

Liz

Yeah. And we're on the internet looking for the answers because our kids don't fit a lot of the time.

Mark

Yeah.

Liz

And the parenting styles that we're told work don't.

Mark

Yeah, this is funnily enough the subject of the talk that I did recently. Thanks for leading on to that. Okay. Yeah, no, but it's that whole thing about realizing that there's something different but not knowing what, and the user manuals that you're looking at, going, well, if I do this and this, my child's going to do that. At it and go, Well, I did that and that, and my child is now like climbing on the sofa and sticking his finger up at me. This is not, this is not what the manual says.

Liz

And the tendency is then to go, well, the book says, and the expert says. it should be like this, and it's not. So now it's my fault.

Mark

Yes.

Liz

I'm the bad parent.

Mark

And you get that from other people as well. You get the judgment from the other parents.

Liz

Absolutely. Family members, and even just being out in the community. Don't even get me started on what happens in the community when you're out.

Mark

Guide to the community list. The last thing we need, you've got your neurodivergent community, we're all online. I know. That's where I should just stay.

Liz

But I you know, I remember being out with the boys when they were young and like it or not, there is, I think, a judgment against Single parents, particularly single mums and out with two kids. And I just need you know, I always felt they'd be this, you just need to be a bit tougher on them. Or you know, oh, the other one I used to get when these kicking off in the middle of the supermarket is Is he tired?

Mark

No, but I am.

Liz

Get out of my fushing way, lady. Actually, no. We're having a full scale meltdown because actually something's not right. And you coming in and actually going, Oh, I see tired is really not helping me. Can you just do one and leave me alone?

Mark

Yeah.

Liz

And that's really odd. People's other other other people's judgment and thoughts and Oh, have you thought about yes?

Mark

No, no, I haven't thought about I haven't thought about turmeric as it happens because that is absolute quackery. Get out of my face and take your spice with you.

Liz

Not what you need in the moment, is it?

Mark

Yeah, but but I mean, you know, I thi that is something that Yeah, that is deeply frustrating. And it doesn't help the mental load because you are then under the impression that everyone else has got it sorted, right? Oh, you because you know, you then look at their children who are sat there waiting. while their mum goes and tries to parent someone else's child. It's like, I'm so good at this, I can parent your child as well. It's like, no, look, we're these are different species. Just back up. You know, if you ever had someone to say, just give, you know, give them to me for the weekend, I'll sort them out. It's like, dude, I bet you crack first.

Liz

Yeah, but there's part of me that thinks, oh, go on, go on, try it. Yeah, I feel like at the end, burnout's one of those things I think that It can creep up on you, and that's what happened to me. So, considering the job that I do and all the work that I've done, and I've worked in adult mental health as well, and all the support I've given parents over the years. I didn't see it coming until it took my feet out from underneath me and everything fell apart.

Mark

At the time, because I'm into I'm really interested in your experience because, you know, and I'm sure a lot of listeners are as well, because. We're not none of us are that far off. I genuinely think that. Like, you know, at what point did you realize that that's what it was? Because that must have probably been once it had already happened.

Liz

Right, you didn't think, oh, all this is getting too much, and yeah, no, no, didn't see it coming at all, and I knew what was happening, you know, everything It was one of those kind of perfect storms. Everything happened. You know, he wasn't at school. I was struggling with trying to get work. I was dealing with EHCPs and local authorities. And where was I going to put him? His mental health was really Poor, I was trying to keep him safe and then introduce the local authority and tribunal. Oh shit, you had that to deal with as well.

Mark

So then the law gets involved, and it's like this is a whole new thing. I've got to learn and understand and afford.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Jesus, Liz. Absolutely.

Liz

And that's what I think then. Well, I talk about it when I you know, when I talk about burnout and my experiences, what happened was I ended up on the kitchen floor in floods of tears.

Mark

Well, do you remember the trigger?

Liz

No.

Mark

It wasn't like a letter. You just opened a letter and went, That's it, I'm done.

Liz

I just stood in the middle of the kitchen one day. Nothing triggered it. that I'm aware of.

Mark

I mean obviously m many many many cumulative things triggered it but yeah there wasn't one final like that is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Liz

It was just It was just one day, that was it. And I was just I ended up on the kitchen floor crying. The kids were in the house, but not near me. I don't know where they were. It's really funny as well. I think there's bits of it I've blocked out. I don't remember bits of it. And I think that can be quite common as well. You don't remember parts of it. And when I think about it now and look back, I was probably on that kitchen floor for a couple of hours. Where I was just sat on the floor, there was no kind of magic answer that came into my head, or there was no shining light, or no magic wand. You just get up because you have to.

Mark

But this is the thing, isn't it? You've got what are the options?

Liz

Yeah, exactly that. I didn't have an option. And I think from there on in, I still didn't realise. I knew things were really bad and I wasn't good. But I still don't think I had kind of pinpointed what it was, as in I wasn't calling it burnout.

Mark

So you just went, Oh, I just had a moment.

Liz

It just became a bit much.

Mark

And then you just got up and carried on as normal.

Liz

Yeah. And then you've got the kids going, Where's my dinner? Exactly that. And you just get back into your routine.

Mark

Yes. Okay.

Liz

Yeah. And I think it was only after we had gone through and finished tribunal, so some of the stressor came off. that I thought, ooh, I haven't been very well. Right, okay. And I think you're in that kind of fright, flight freeze kind of response, those stress responses, literally fighting for At times, our lives to get us through things that when that dropped away, When you're in those stress responses, it's all back in that old part of your brain. And it's a safety mechanism. And your cognitive, that prefrontal cortex stuff goes offline. You're thinking, your reasoning, all that kind of stuff. Goes offline.

Mark

Yes, okay.

Liz

So it's a bit so when people say, you know, I can't think properly, they've got that brain fog, and that's part of the burnout. Is that why you're so much back in that old part of your brain, just trying to survive?

Mark

Yeah, by instinct, basically, parenting by instinct.

Liz

But you can't think it through. And it wasn't until things started to ease that I thought, oh, I think I know what's happened.

Mark

Right, okay.

Liz

And then there's been a period for me, I think, trying to work out, okay, and I am one of those people, what do I do about it?

Mark

Research, I guess, because that's you know, that's where I am.

Liz

Going back to my OT and going back to, you know, balance and looking at my occupations and thinking about why am I like this? What do I need in place? What strategies do I need? So my work brain kicked in eventually.

Mark

Okay, so you basically ended up using yourself as a case study. What would I recommend to myself in this situation?

Liz

Yes.

Mark

Wow.

Liz

Yeah. If I was the parent and I'm coming across you as a parent, what would I do? And that's basically what happened.

Mark

So at the point that you'd sort of, you know, the tribunal's over and you're like, oh, oh, I think that's what it was. Was that where the research because you must have known about burnout before then?

Liz

Well, do you know what? I did know about burnout before, but I think like everybody else, I'd never made it specific to parenting. And when you look at the diagnostics, so the diagnostic manuals, there's the ICD 11, which I think is the most recent one. Which is a diagnostic manual. It only acknowledges workplace burnout.

Mark

Right, okay.

Liz

It attaches burnout to workplace.

Mark

Works like a fucking holiday for me. It's like, oh my God, I get to be a person, like in my own right. And, you know, people listen to me and do what I ask them to do.

Liz

That's the only bit it recognizes. It doesn't recognise anything else. And I and part of me thinks that's not how can it just be in one place? You can't get burnout one place. Surely it's your life and work is part of that. Being a parent is part of that. Lifing is part of that.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz

From out from anything.

Mark

What are the sort of um diagnostic criteria for burnout?

Liz

I wrote them down 'cause I never remember them

Mark

Oh, thank you!

Liz

There you go. I wrote them down. So they said it's characterized by energy depletion and exhaustion.

Mark

Right, check. Everyone's got that. Fine.

Liz

Mental distance to distancing yourself from people.

Mark

As in zoning out when they're talking to you, or literally just like, I can't, I cannot deal with talking to another human.

Liz

Exactly that. Yep.

Mark

Tick

Liz

And reduced efficacy.

Mark

I mean, yeah. Check.

Liz

So I thought...

Mark

Is that it?

Liz

They're just three.

Mark

Dude, I would imagine that every single one of them The my neuroshambles listeners has ticked those three boxes. But that's, I think, there's, yeah, I think there's got to be more to it than that. That seems a very low bar.

Liz

Yeah. And that talks about a syndrome that results from chronic workplace stress that has not been managed successfully.

Mark

That's a nonsense. We we eat that shit for breakfast.

Liz

Exactly. Do you think you're burnt out at work coming from my household? And that's where that came from for me, was me thinking. And I'd heard people talk about Autistic burnout. I'd heard people talk about ADHD burnout, but I hadn't heard people talk about parental burnout.

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was so interested when someone said that. I was like, oh.

Liz

Yeah. And that's where that came from for me: was thinking you can't just be, it can't just be at work. And then I get my OT hat on, okay? So then I get all OT and think, okay, so occupational therapists, we're, we, we, Consider occupations. Occupation isn't just work. Occupation is a doing, it's anything that we do or participate in that we need to or is important to us. So if you want to get rid of the word work and think occupation, that should cover any part of your life.

Mark

Well, that's the thing, is that at work, right? is by definition a set period of hours. Parenting has no set hours.

Liz

It is full time and full on. Yeah.

Mark

Right. No matter what neurotype your children are.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

How is that not more recognized? So yes, so let's take away out the word work and think of it as an occupation, and I am professionally parenting. Actually, I'm very often unprofessionally parenting. But yes, I'm a parent by profession.

Liz

Yep. Yep.

Mark

And it's moonlighting in my other job.

Liz

Yeah, but it's a role that we have. Like you have a work role, you're a have a parent role, you have a relationship role, or you have all these different roles that make up your life. And I just couldn't understand how it could just sit just in work. So I'm sure I'm not the first person to have coined the term parental burnout, but I wasn't hearing it, I wasn't seeing it. So that's what I started to talk about, and I started to talk about that on my social media sites and got a huge response. From other parents. And I thought.

Mark

Right, who were going through the same thing. But, you know, obviously not just the three things that characterize workplace burnout.

Liz

Exactly. And I think the big thing for me is nobody's burnout is the same as anybody else's. And just like what causes me to burn out might not cause somebody else to burn out. It it depends on You know, our skills, what we know at the time, what's happening in our environment, it depends on our neurotype, all sorts of stuff. We are more susceptible to burnout when we have got so neurodivergence. sensory sensitivities, experiences, trauma backgrounds, all sorts of things will make us more susceptible to burnout.

Mark

So parental burnout, right. Let because we've already accepted that workplace burnout is like your common or garden burnout, right? Parental burnout is obviously something more than that.

Liz

Yeah. I think burnout for people will look different will look differently. My burnout was very much I withdrew, completely withdrew. I hardly spoke to people. I didn't want to talk about it because I felt like I either I felt ashamed that I couldn't do what I needed to do for my kids. I there was a lot of guilt involved that I needed to be more present with the kids. I needed to want to go and play in the park. And actually, I didn't want to play in the park. I didn't want to talk about you know, my son's special interest. I do I just wanted everyone to leave me alone. I was going through the bare minimum, feed you, water you, are you in semi-clean clothes that was about where I could get to in that moment. And there was a lot of guilt that came with that. And a lot of people.

Mark

Yes, of course, which doesn't help at all.

Liz

No. Not helpful at all. So that happened for me. Brain fogs are just not, I couldn't even sometimes I couldn't even get the words out. I mean, I had problems anyway, being dyslexic, finding the right words, but this was a whole nother level. you know, executive functioning, just gone, planning, organisation. I used to think I was quite organised, and then I had had kids. And then realised I wasn't that organized. But it became even worse than that, you know, tearful, crying at absolutely everything. Anybody, anything said to me, I was always on the verge of tears or about anything. It was just in the background, ready to kind of pop out. And then, like I said, it's that kind of that real bone tired didn't you could have sent me to the Bahamas for six months and that rest wouldn't have been enough.

Mark

Right.

Liz

Nothing felt like nothing kind of replenished that tiredness to allow me to feel better. It it felt awful.

Mark

And this is the thing though, that you're not you're still getting these demands on you. You're still having to do, you know, give care to your kids as best you can. And you still probably have that bar in your head of how you want a parent. And, you know, you're having to entertain your kids sometimes and handle mu you've got multiple kids and multiple neurotypes at play in you All of that, and that doesn't just go away. No, that like that's still happening. You're still worried about them and And you can't just park that, can you?

Liz

No. And I think there's a lack of what I spoke about earlier is this lack of control. And I think if you get burnt out at work, you might get signed off. You can take some time out. You might go to your boss and see if you can make some adjustments to your work. Man, can you imagine being signed off from parenting? Exactly. Makes majority.

Mark

Sorry, guys, I'm not making dinner tonight. The doctor signed me off.

Liz

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Oh, man, that would be sweet.

Liz

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

But obviously, that's not going to happen unless they provide an alternative parental figure. which is not feasible.

Liz

No. And then ultimately, if your job is that bad that burns you out that that much and you can't manage in that job, you have the choice to go and get another job. I can't go and get another set of kids.

Mark

Well, nor would you want to.

Liz

No.

Mark

Most of the time.

Liz

That kind of difference that I'm trying to pull out is that That kind of work burnout versus parental burnout.

Mark

Yeah. And there's grievance procedures and unions, and there's no parents' union, is there? Not that I don't know what we'd achieve. Dude, I've got enough on my plate. Yeah. But yeah, no, absolutely. There's no grievance process. There's no HR to where you can go, I'm overworked.

Liz

You just gotta suck it up. The biggest thing I think that came with that was the guilt for me that I constantly giving myself a hard time, that I couldn't do what the perfect parent should do. I needed to do more. even though I had given everything to the point I was now burnt out, and I had nothing more left to give, that still wasn't enough in my mind. And not because, like, you know, like you, I've got a amazing family support, amazing, and they never made me feel like that. My kids never made me feel like that. Yeah. But I did feel like that.

Mark

So how old were your kids when you kind of hit burnout?

Liz

So they would have been 11 and 12.

Mark

Okay, so they would have sort of been aware that you were being different, I guess. Did they sort of raise that with you? Mummy doesn't give a shit. We're allowed to game all day. This is amazing. Sorry, I'm being glib. Forgive me.

Liz

I think for them, actually, what happened was it made them Want to be with me more. And you know, okay, that's interesting. You can get touched out by kids, and I thought, I don't want to be touched anymore. I don't want to be spoken to. And actually, I think the more and more I kind of withdrew. the more and more they felt they needed to be with me, which made it really difficult. And again, I suppose being in a solo parent household, there wasn't another parent that could go I'm around.

Mark

Yeah.

Liz

You know, I can be so when I looked wobbly to them, I should think that was quite scary to them for them.

Mark

Yeah, of course. Of course, because you are a place of safety, you know, for the neurodivergent in a world that is not safe out there.

Liz

Yeah. In here, you're that pillar of strength. That's not compromised. That is really hard. And we did used to, I think, as I came out of Bernard, we used to have conversations about me crying. because I would often be like, I can't cry in front of the kids and I you know, they're not stupid, kids really aren't stupid.

Mark

No.

Liz

And and they spot it. Mummy, have you been crying? No, watch them with your eyes. Nothing, hay fever. And then they don't believe you. So, at some point, did you kind of share that with them?

Mark

Yes. Because I'm going to go back to an episode I had with Jess Kane.

Liz

Oh, yeah.

Mark

About siblings. And that was a real eye-opener for me, that episode, where Jess just went, Do you advocate for yourself? Do you advocate for your own needs with your kids? And I was like. No.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Why would I? And then she basically said it's really important to be able to do that, to say, you know what? This is too much for me. I here's what I need. And I guess you know, and it shouldn't take reaching burnout to get to that stage. But at that level, were you when you were there, were you able to then go I just need this. It's a very interesting conversation to have with your kids because it's not anything that my parents did with us.

Liz

No.

Mark

Because they're a different generation, right? And what I kind of learned from Jess and the conversation I had with Jess was that actually it's important to model to your kids advocate for themselves. By you saying this is what I need, they go, Oh, oh, you can do that and that's what you do and that's how you do it. So I'm trying to sort of tease a positive out of what was undoubtedly a a horrendous situation. But did you find that your relationship with them and your ability to advocate for yourself then improved?

Liz

Absolutely. I would say now we're a team. And I'm still the parent, but I think what they have seen from me and I try to show them is that I'm a real person. So I get upset by things, but I recover. And that's the important bit is that I know I get upset and I will always get upset about something. And They laugh at me because I'm well perimenopause. And I'll cry at EastEnders and they just look at me and like, you need something? Or is it just like a TV thing, right? Don't worry about it, it's just EastEnders. But they are very aware. And I, you know, I I think that's brought us together as a team. Yeah, working out. They are still safe with me. I'm still the parent. I still do the kind of Protective bit, and I look after them. I'm not expecting parent me because I think people can confuse that. I'm not looking for them to support me and be my carer, but I am showing them that it's real, and when you you can get upset by things, you can get stressed by things. Tell them what it is because when you don't tell kids what it is, they will make up something themselves. Not a lie, but they will just create a reason why you feel like that.

Mark

And often kids will make it about themselves. Yes, exactly. And they'll catastrophize and think that something certainly Otto has got a very strong trait of doing that. It was interesting when you said essentially that you model bouncing back. you model the fact that I yes, you can be low and you can be in a really rough place, but you can come back from it and it's just Understanding what you need and giving yourself that time.

Liz

And was it just time?

Mark

I mean, how does what's the recovery process from this?

Liz

See, I feel, and I talk about it, I'm quite open about it, is that Burnout's always in the background for me. I think what I know now is I'm not frightened of burnout anymore. That's changed for me. It doesn't scare me anymore like it used to, or it did. And when I was in it, I was quite scared by it. It doesn't scare me anymore. I think I know what my stresses are. I know what's pushing me towards burnout and what will probably push me towards it. And I can use my pivot. Nice, nice work.

Mark

So is there do you sort of sense some sort of telltale signs that, oh, this is getting too much?

Liz

Yeah. So I've now got, I know there's a kind of a collective Signs that let me know that's where I'm going. Now, sometimes, even with what I do, I still will struggle to find to pinpoint that myself. And what I talk about when I went with parents, and I have to have to do it for myself, is that is creating those kind of safe circles. So I've got safe circles that are people that I trust and that who know me and aren't going to be oh, you just need to, because that'll send me off in the opposite direction. Because sometimes I need a little nudge to say All right.

Mark

So they're they're looking out for you in the going, I've noticed that you, you know.

Liz

Yeah. And they might just give me a little bit of a nudge, and then I go Oh yeah, okay. And now I know what I've got to put in. I know what I've got to do. And even this weekend, you know, I put out an email to my. my email list that went out today. Last week was a really difficult week. It was really difficult. There was lots going on. And I got towards the end of the week and my partner just said to me You all right? And I went, Yes Right. He was like, Mm, are you? And I went, No and then was able to kind of take that step back and to take that pause. And it's not always easy to take to stop. We can't always stop because of what's going on in our lives, but you can take a pause wherever you are and whatever's happening, even if it's just for 30 seconds, you can take a pause. And I think Like what happened last week is I took that pause and thought something's got to shift this weekend or I'm heading back down that route again.

Mark

Right, okay. So even just being aware of it is now enough to you for you to check in and go, ah, okay.

Liz

Yes, something has to change. Yeah. And then knowing what works for you. And I talk about, you know, it's your bonnet, your way. You've got to find a way. You've got to find the ways that work for you. and your nervous system and your life and your environment and your kids and your house and all that kind of stuff and what you've got accessible to you and what demands you've got on you. because it will differ between people.

Mark

So when you are sort of emerging from burnout, it's sort of removing some of the judgment of yourself. And your own parenting to go, do you know what? We can have chicken nuggets two nights in a row. Yeah, and that's exactly it.

Liz

This weekend, we did nothing that I had to cook and prepare, it just went in an oven. And did I feel bad about it? No, I didn't.

Mark

Yeah. And it's just, I guess, just giving yourself those little breathers in advance.

Liz

Yes.

Mark

Before it gets to, you know, sobbing on the kitchen floor levels.

Liz

Yeah, it's exactly that. It's being aware. What does it look like? What are my signs and what do I know works for me? Easy as that.

Mark

This is all resonating with me quite heavily at the moment because, yeah, yeah, it's been a it's a lot. There's a lot going on at the moment. And It is just just constant. And weirdly, this this podcast is my respite.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

That's insane, isn't it? There's so much work to do, but it just like Just talking to other people.

Liz

And that's a big thing, I think, is finding other people that get it. And that's a bit around those safe circles: being able to find other people that you can talk about it and they don't try and fix you. They don't come with the, oh, you just need to. They don't come with the, oh, my friend's cousin did this with their kids.

Mark

Nothing like that.

Liz

They just go, Yeah, I see ya

Mark

Yeah.

Liz

Here.

Mark

Get off the socials, stop looking at other people, having a lovely family day out at a vintage car museum or whatever the fuck it is.

Liz

Yeah, exactly that. And I think there's a really lovely video by Brene Brown. Okay. And she talks about empathy. And it's a brilliant little video. If you ever get to go and see it, go watch it.

Mark

Send me the link to it. And I can put it in the show notes so everyone else can see it.

Liz

And it's about empathy. And it took and it's someone down in a hole having a really hard time and there's some kind of From the top of the hole, shouting, going, Oh, you know, oh, you just need to, or whatever, or but at least, and all this kind of stuff. And then there's another person that gets down in the hole with them and goes, I know what it feels like. Yeah, I'm here with you. And that's what you need. That's what yeah.

Mark

I sometimes need someone sitting in the hole with me, not just going, I know what it's like to be in a hole, but also turning to me and going This is pretty shit, isn't it? Yeah. This is hard work, isn't it? Yeah. And it's like, okay, it's not just me, then. Sweet. And then we can move forward. But it is, you know, I know. I like I'm I'm not equating what I'm going through to to burnout, but I I I do need to be better at reading the signs of when it's becoming too much. And I think I recognize a lot of that. Certainly workplace burnout. That's like base level when I wake up in the morning. Um but in terms of parental burnout, there are definitely telltale signs that I go through and I'm sure Tam goes through as well. And I'm sure many of our listeners do. So I guess the point is just finding that s space and being aware of it and not trying to be the super parent that is going to do everything all in one go.

Liz

And I think there's something as well that happens as a parent where they're I think most possibly it happens more so when we've maybe got neurodivergent kids or additional need kids, is that I felt I lost a sense of who I was You know, and I remember being really upset once, somebody said to me, What do you like doing?

Mark

and I thought, I don't know Sleeping.

Liz

A quiet hound. I'd lost all my The things that brought me joy, the things that I enjoyed doing, they had gone because my life had been totally taken over by systems and telephone calls and emails and trying to keep people safe and demands and having to go down to school at a moment's notice or Not being able to get him out of the car, or and I had I had lost all the things that I, you know, I enjoyed. It's funny that we talked about netball, you know, I took netball back up again.

Mark

Oh, nice, okay.

Liz

Um, yeah, going out on a motorbike, that kind of thing. Um Even just going to the sea. I know for me, the sea is my place where I just go, Can I get to the sea? Can I get there? How often can I get there? But it's having getting a sense of you back again that you I think we lo lots of parents lose that.

Mark

Yes. And that is, you know, a huge part of that depends on if you can get an element of respite, which you know, uh this so this is what a thing that I'd thought about discussing in this episode, and I started writing down some notes on respite. And then I I kept writing notes on respite, and then I wrote some more notes on respite. I was like, nah, this is an entirely separate episode in its own right. So I will be doing an episode about respite. So we're not going to go too far into that here. It's not easy for parents of neurodivergent kids to get that respite. You're not going to get many people offering to take your neurodivergent kids while you go and just you know, go to the sea or whatever it is that is going to just get you back online. And that's a really That's a really difficult part of parenting your undivergent kids.

Liz

Incredibly hard. Yeah. It's not like you're leaving leaving your kids to go away. You know, I want to go away with my partner, or you know, we want to go away. And we've just got to that point that I've been able to do that. But I also know There is a fallout from that. So, even with all the prep and going with, you know, family members that they're very, very comfortable and they love, just me not being there is so stressful that when I come back, I know there will be a fallout.

Mark

Yes.

Liz

But I still prioritize me going.

Mark

But that's important though, because if you're not at your you know, not even at your best, if you're not at your most adequate At the core level, there's going to be fallout another way, isn't there?

Liz

Absolutely. You know, but that's going to be on you.

Mark

And it's about advocating for yourself and doing that.

Liz

And ultimately, if you know, let's talk about, you know, if you go down, the ship goes down. It does. If we go down as parents, it doesn't work. Yeah. So it is how how do I look after myself in this? And like you said earlier, on the list of priorities, we are often at the bottom. And not only do we place ourselves at the bottom, I also think we are placed at the bottom. you know, when we come across other professionals or systems or anything like that, how often and this was a big thing for me when we were going through what we went through and The support that my son needed. Nobody asked me if I was okay.

Mark

Yeah, that's definitely something that I've noticed as well. Like, oh, how are the kids? How's Jay? How's Otto doing at school? And yeah, just other people checking in. Someone did that to me today, actually. One of the few friends that I have of the parents at school just put his hand on my shoulder and went, how you doing? It's like Not the time or the place. Let's go for a beer at some point. Or several. But yeah, just checking in was like, oh, yeah. Okay, good. I can't unload it all now, but it felt all right that there was someone that does that because it's not something that people do. I think the parents of neurodivergent kids do it.

Liz

Yeah, I think we are pretty good at checking in on each other. It's little things like that, isn't it? And I think you know, I talk about that again on my on some of my social media stuff, is it sometimes it's just the tiny things that someone does And it can be they've made you a cup of tea or they've sent you a text going, How you doing? or I've had a friend turn up with a made dinner. They sent they turned up. On my doorstep, I could have loved them forever. I didn't have to cook dinner for the night, and they didn't stay, they just handed me the dinner and went, Oh, I thought that you might like that. And that was it.

Mark

Yeah, that's lovely.

Liz

And it's little moments like that. And I think as well sometimes people don't know what to do with us when we're feeling like that because they can't help.

Mark

Well, this is the thing that I get and it really and I'm slapping my knees 'cause I'm getting animated, right? One of the most frustrating things the platitudes that I hear is I wish we could do something to help. Right. I get that a lot. And that I cannot do anything with that because you are simultaneously saying I acknowledge that you need help. I acknowledge you're going through a rough time, but I'm also ruling out any possibility of me helping you. I wish there was something that we could do to help. Like, I mean, you could. You know, I'd actually prefer just like, you know, how are you? How are things? Because then I could at least. But you're it's almost shutting down that conversation.

Liz

Yeah. Where do you remember that?

Mark

You know, if if they were to turn around and go What can we do to help?

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

That, that's a whole different conversation.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

You know, even just to, you know, just come around for a cup of tea or something. I need to see other people. I need to speak to other humans.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Just come around for a cup of tea. 'Cause there are other other platitudes I've got as well. You're doing so well. Have you heard that one?

Liz

Oh, yes.

Mark

It's like, really, am I And you have no idea. Because again, that's acknowledging, God, it's fucking hard for you. And again, you're doing so well is just Standing on the sidelines, isn't it?

Liz

See, I find that one really condescending, and I don't think they often mean it in a condescending way.

Mark

No, no, no, no. None of this is meant in a malicious way.

Liz

No, it makes me think. Oh, you're doing so well. I was just thinking, ah, shut up.

Mark

Yeah, really. Yeah, exactly. Well, where's my medal?

Liz

Yes.

Mark

The other one that gets me, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners have had this as well, is someone that says, I could never do what you have to do.

Liz

Like you have a choice. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

He's like, do you know what? I can't do it either sometimes, but I fucking have to.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

You know, this is.

Liz

I don't know how you do it.

Mark

Yeah, that's the other one. I don't know how you do it. Well, what are the options?

Liz

Yeah. What are the options? Tell me, because I don't know what you know.

Mark

You could learn how to do it.

Liz

Come in. Come in. Yeah, that's the one that drives me nuts, isn't it?

Mark

Help me out here.

Liz

I don't know how you do it because I just think. You don't have a choice as a parent. You just have to get on with it and do it. What do I do other than I have to do it?

Mark

And where do you go from there? Where do you go from that statement? Well, you know. with a lot of coffee and very little sleep.

Liz

Yes.

Mark

That's basically it. And an absolutely legendary level of patience.

Liz

Yes.

Mark

Which I didn't know I possessed until this entire journey kicked off. And that very patience is saving me from slapping you right now. So let's all be thankful.

Liz

I've had the ones as well where people go, Oh, you know, when the kids are just like gaming and stuff, why don't you go for a quick lie down? I think, do you know how much I've got to do?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Oh, right, that's it. There's nothing else to do.

Liz

Yeah, when they're quiet.

Mark

I'm running round.

Liz

I'm out here doing that, doing the garden, putting the washing on. What's for dinner?

Mark

When they don't need me, the house needs me.

Liz

Yes.

Mark

So, yeah, it's constant. Yeah. I think parents of neurotypicals have this idea that yes, raising neurodivergent kids is hard, obviously. But then raising kids is hard. So, how much harder could it be? You know, and they probably in their own mind go, Well, it might be like 25% harder or something like that. It's like, you have no idea because it's not Like you're not just adding a bit of difficulty, it's cumulative, right? It's multiplied. You're not adding on an extra Like 10 mental load points for this, and adding on an extra four mental load points for that. You're multiplying it every single time until it just becomes this overwhelming thing that you you're just completely bogged down by. So that's when those platitudes take a break, go away for a weekend. All of that is just completely missing the point. And as you were saying, like even that, When you're in burnout, even that's not enough. Even that's not going to get you out of it. No. You know, I listened to the episode on your podcast, which I will put a link to in the show notes. But the episode you did with Heidi Maver, friend of the podcast, Heidi, she was talking about when Theo had emerged from burnout That's when she hit burnout. And similar to you, right? The tribunal was done. And then you stop and you go, Oh shit

Liz

Yeah. And then it hits you like a pinton truck. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark

And so Heidi said that she was like in bed for like at least a month and literally bedbound, not able to move.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Which kind of echoes what you were saying about just not just being tired to your very bones.

Liz

Yeah, it's an exhaustion. I can't expl I can't explain it with exhaustion.

Mark

So I'm sure a lot of people are going to be listening to this going, that's me, that's me, my bones are tired as well. And yes, we are all we're all like, as I said at the start, I think that all neurodivergent parents feel this to some degree. Like we are all feeling this level of exhaustion because of the mental load. The fact that we've got so many demands placed on us by children, and the fact that we have to do so much admin, and meetings and trying to hold down a job and maybe you're kind of looking after elderly parents and you might have financial worries. These are all cumulative things that we have to deal with and none of it's going away. Right? Because the one thing that we're not going to do is give up the fight for advocating for our kids. So are there any Sort of key pointers that you could give to people who find themselves slipping into the quicksand of parental burnout.

Liz

One is finding that group of people that get it. So it is about finding a backup team, support team, whatever you want to call it. People that you can talk to and they go, Yeah, I get it. I get it.

Mark

And very often that's online.

Liz

Yes, very often it is. Especially because we never get out anywhere. Yeah.

Mark

Because also, how are you going to find them? You're not just going to be walking around a supermarket going that person's kids kicking off. That's one of mine. Yeah. Yeah. Go and start up a conversation while their child's having a meltdown.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

That's not going to work. No one needs that. But there are pretty much always local Facebook groups or You know, I don't know where else. That's where I found mine. I was like, right, these are my people.

Liz

Yeah, and a bit like, you know, you do, you know, Mark, with your podcast, I suppose, is through the podcast. So, you know, I hear lots of people talking on the podcasts. where I think, oh, I get that, I understand that bit, that kind of resonates for me. But also I think it's listening to other people talk and it's finding the things that work for you. And sometimes another parent has just got that golden nugget that you go

Mark

I hadn't thought of that.

Liz

I hadn't thought about that. I'm going to go and try it. And it's not someone going to you, oh, do you know what? You're in burnout. Here's a list. Go and do all these things.

Mark

I don't want more homework, guys.

Liz

No.

Mark

Just give me the little nugget I need.

Liz

Yeah. And unfortunately, it's having to go out and try and find that. And there is no magic answer for that. And that's a hard thing to hear when you're in burnout: is that. what we want is someone to go, if you just go and do this, then everything will be okay. And I think we flirt on the edges of burnout. Even if you haven't hit burnout, very I would say very probably most Neurodivergent families. There's a parent in there that's flirting around the edge of burnout.

Mark

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Liz

How far they go down that route depends on protective factors. how well they recognize it in themselves. So I think you know it is about knowing it and knowing what your burnout looks like. What does it look like? How does it pop up for you? How did it show for you? Bringing other people in to support if you can, if you've got that. And sharing it, I guess, and letting people know that's what's going on.

Mark

Because I think you said You know, very often in a relationship, one of the parents might be experiencing burnout, and we all know which parent that is. It's usually the mums, isn't it? Let's be honest, you know?

Liz

Very often, the bulk of this mental load. I wonder the dad's burnout in different ways.

Mark

I mean, I've got a bit of a thinking around that one.

Liz

Oh, okay.

Mark

Can I go for it?

Liz

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it with me on that. I think when you look when you look online, you know, I think I've got a group that I run for parents. I would say I think I've got about three hundred and fifty people in there.

Mark

I think there's two men.

Liz

I'm making a sweeping generalization here. But women tend to go and will look for support socially. that's where they go. They'll go and look online, they'll be part of they'll find a group of mums that they kind of get on with, they'll go out and socialise And they will talk about nine times out of ten, we will talk about how things are difficult. If you get them in the right environment with the right kind of people, they will have big in-depth conversations about how tricky things are, how difficult things are. My experience of men when I've come across them is is different, is often they will go out and they will seek support, but in a very different way.

Mark

Okay.

Liz

So they will go out often, and it's quite practical what they'll do. So they'll go and do something together, like they might go to the pub together, or they might go and build a shed. Yeah, and I'll come on to it a bit later, actually, because one of the things we talk about about champions later on it's just around kind of men and and and how they look for support and often I don't know whether men feel they can't say they're having a hard time because they're not the ones that are picking up the majority of the load. They feel they can't say I'm struggling. I'm finding this hard. Yeah, because I shouldn't, or I'm not doing as much. Well, let me be one of those dads.

Mark

To say, fucking hell, it's hard. I'm finding it really hard. There are, you know, as a dad of neurodivergent kids, there are groups that I've kind of seen And I there's a local group to me, which is Dad Meetups and things like that. So it is out there and it is available. But I do think that the mental load of Looking after neurodivergent children very often falls squarely on the mum. And for whatever reason. I don't know if there's any kind of gender stereotypes around being the caregiver more than the breadwinner. I don't know why that is. But I think The dads need to step up more. There I said it. Like, because it's t too often too many people that I talk to, they're doing the physical stuff. And this and including my own, you know, my own former relationship with Tam. That Tam was doing a lot of the admin, and we'd obviously agreed that I was because I was earning more than I do that, and Tam would be part-time and and do all of the admin, but that's the mental that's a lot of mental load that I'm not taking on. I'm fucking off to work and having a lovely time talking to people and, you know, d being a human in the real world. And it's very often that the mental cost of supporting and advocating for neurodivergent kids is placed on the women. And I think that it needs to happen more, that the dads will need to check in and need to say, what can I do? What can I take? I mean, Tam and I have redressed the balance a little bit more now and Tam going, right? You're doing more of the admin. It's like, okay, fine. Oh, Jesus, this is a lot, isn't it?

Liz

Yeah. And when they do that, though, can they step away from it and let you do it? Because I think there's some of me that just thinks I don't want them to do it.

Mark

I'm going to do it too because I can do it properly. Well, the thing is. You know, and it might not appear this way from this podcast, but I am largely competent as a as a human. I'm quite good at admin, and we we've always been so So, yeah, I think Tam does trust me and knows that I can I can actually do that. But I think dads, even if they're not Because they are still stepping up. They are working and probably working harder because, and there's that, there's definitely the mental load of going, if I don't keep my job, if I don't keep bringing in money, if I don't get a better job. This all falls down. That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. And that's probably why they don't share it. But I don't think they're taking on as much of the burden or an equal share of the burden of advocating for their neurodivergent kids. And I look at the listenership of this podcast because you get to see the gender breakdown. It's really interesting, right? It is like staggeringly skewed towards women listening to this. Like, and look at the guests that I get on, all of my wonderful guests. Like I'd love to get more dads on, you know. So it is definitely a thing that it's a balance that I think needs to be redressed. I don't know how to do it other than do what I can, like in my own family. But I you're saying sort of share that mental load with someone else. And I wonder how many people are in a relationship where their dad doesn't take that on. He's like, actually I'm dealing with this shit at work. I'm really stressed at work. You know, that's your job and this is my job. And actually, they're not comparable. the mental load of having to fight for accommodations for your and neurodivergent kids, I think, is next level.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

Um, because it's so laced with Worry and fear and frustration and anger a lot of the time that your day job. It doesn't even come close to.

Liz

Yeah, yeah. And the day job's preferable. It's so it's a nice place to be.

Mark

You know, so the dad's got workplace burnout, the mum's got parental burnout. I know which one I would take. Yeah. So step up, dads. Roll your sleeves up and get stuck in.

Liz

I'm glad you said it.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, so let's look at the positives now of parental burnout. And now, unsurprisingly. There are very few positives out of this. I guess we touched on one a little bit earlier, actually, which is that if you get to that point that you have to start advocating for your own needs. And people see that because they're seeing you at rock bottom, that can bring you closer as a family unit as you experienced. And also that you showed that you can Bounce back. And so you're modeling that. So there's a positive from emerging from burnout.

Liz

Yes.

Mark

And once again, I guess a positive is the just the beacon of light of the neurodivergent community in all of this, as you've alluded to, as I allude to in every single podcast.

Liz

Yeah.

Mark

These are our neighbors, right? They've got our back. I do that. And being able to share your experience with other people who get it is so valuable. You know that they've been in your shoes. They're not going to be. giving you those platitudes.

Liz

No, I don't get judged by them.

Mark

Oh, that's such a big thing, isn't it? And they don't try to minimize what you're going through.

Liz

And I think as well, they're not uncomfortable with you saying, I'm not okay. We're very British in the fact that when we go, you know, how are you? I'm fine.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Liz

I find with the neurodivergent community, they can go to me, how are you? And I can go, I'm really awful. And they go, Oh, okay. But they're not frightened by that.

Mark

Having someone that can be just, yeah, this is a rough time right now. And knowing that they're not going to try and fix it. They're just going to sit in the trenches with me for a little bit because they're going through their own shit.

Liz

There's a little bit of that dark humor in there as well that comes out that I love.

Mark

Yes.

Liz

which sometimes is just what you need. Sometimes in some of the toughest jobs that I've done, the humor that some people would probably go That's a bit close.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, exactly.

Liz

That actually is what gets you through it, and that we can laugh.

Mark

That's the reason that I thought Neuroshambles would work. is because I've met so many people who can laugh at their situation in amongst the very dark times, but I know that there's a kernel of humor amongst all of us. that we want to share. And so I was hoping that people would do that. And I'm very grateful that people do. And people want to listen to this nonsense. That's not for everyone.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity Champions.

Mark

This is the Neurodiversity Champions section now. This is Where I give you the opportunity to give a shout out to anybody in the neurosphere who are doing particularly wonderful things in the field of neurodivergency, whether it's a person or an organization. Have you got anyone that you want to mention? loads. I had trouble with this one because I was having to bring it right down. It's like the Oscars.

Liz

It is, I think that and that's what I think is what's so lovely at the moment is there is there's like an explosion of stuff out there at the moment of people creating spaces. that are neurodivergent, friendly, welcoming, affirming, that is so lovely to see. But I think one that I wanted to mention was a group run by a guy called Paul Braxton, and it's called Super Good Bikers.

Mark

Right, okay, nice.

Liz

And they are a group of motor bikers, bikers that ride for autism and neurodivergence. And they create rides popping up around the country where they go out and raise money for peop people, places like the National Autistic Society Society. And they raise money for There to kind of support the kids. He's also at the moment raising money to buy a side car for the motorbike so that they can go around and offer young people that are autistic. to be able to go out on the bike in the side car.

Mark

Wow, that sounds amazing.

Liz

Yeah. So he's doing that. But also what he does is a lot of work around working with and supporting dads. I think that's how it started. But us kind of mums have got in there as well, the ones that possibly the the biker mums have got in there too. But I think for him it was set up for what he talked about. He came onto my podcast and did a chat. and talks about why he set it up and that he went out and rides and bikes because that's how he copes. With what's been happening at home for him.

Mark

That's his release, right?

Liz

That's his release. And so he set these rides up, and he was saying that the dads would come and they would come for the bike ride, and that would be about it. But what's starting to happen now is that the dads will come, they go for a bike ride, and then afterwards, there's a conversation and they start to talk about what it's like to parent a neurodivergent child. And he gave an example, you know, dad turning up and going. Yeah, can I say something? I get really embarrassed when I have to go to the shops and my son, who's twenty odd, wants to take Peppa Pig. And Paul going, Yeah. I get that.

Mark

Yeah.

Liz

You know, that is embarrassing. I get that. But it's what they need. And but then being able to have those really open conversations. So he does a great job. And we are going to there's one that he runs down near me. I'm down in Surrey. We go to one that he puts on every year. Um and he works really hard, really hard with um this all his merchandise and arranging these Bike rides, and I know he's got a bike ride going up at the Yonderman Cafe. He's got over a hundred people booked on as well. Okay, so he's doing a great job. So yes, super good bikers for autism would be my shout out.

Mark

Okay, I'll put a link to that in the show notes and we'll see if there's a super good bike ride near you, right? Yes. Awesome. I wanted to give a shout out because I get quite a few emails to the Neuroshambles email account from people trying to plug stuff or trying to plug a book. And but someone emailed me about a film that is coming out that I was like, oh, this sounds good. Yeah. And this is from Dartmouth Films. And there is a film that is going to be released, or uh pretty much around the time that this podcast is going to be released, on the twenty eighth of March in UK cinemas. There's a film called The Stimming Pool.

Liz

Nice. I already love the title.

Mark

And it's basically it's an experimental feature film co created by a bunch of autistic artists. So Autistic Directors basically doing short films shot from their perspective of their view on the world. But I was really interested that it's a purely neurodivergent bunch of directors, and it's got a huge release. It sold out at the BFI in last year. and it's now going to be screening across the UK from the twenty eighth of March. So there is a website, it is thestimmingpool. com, and there's loads and loads of local screenings. quite reasonably there are autistic friendly screenings as well.

Liz

Wow.

Mark

I love an autistic friendly screening. Well, do you know what, Mark?

Liz

I have got a son, my youngest, who's autistic. is the biggest film buff you will find to watch his films and he writes reviews. He loves Mark Commode. and listen to his podcast. Okay. And he writes in a very similar way. Nice. And he is fanatical about he knows everything there is, all the directors, everything. He would love to know about that. He wants to go off to be a film director. That's where he's heading.

Mark

Well, hopefully, this will be the spark that kicks it off.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic Wins.

Mark

So, tiny epic wins now. These are moments that in the neurotypical world would not be considered any big deal, but in our world, they are major epic wins. Have you got any tiny epic wins for us? Oh, I have.

Liz

So, this was about my son, and he had we have a bit of a problem in our house with With food.

Mark

I've got boys, yeah?

Liz

So they just eat everything.

Mark

Okay.

Liz

One in particular, my older one, is just like locusts will eat everything. So my son had come down, my youngest, and had said there's biscuits missing. And this time it wasn't my oldest son, it was me. I had eaten the biscuits. So I said to him, I'm really sorry, I ate the biscuits. And he was really cross with me, like really cross. He was telling me off, I'm you know, it's really out of order. He was really cross with me. And I kept saying to him, I've said, I'm sorry. I've said I'm sorry to you. Why do you keep going on like this? This is you're being out of order now. I've taken your biscuits. I said I was sorry. You know, kind of get over it. And he just turned around to me and he went, I'm allowed to be angry. You've told me I'm allowed to be angry. I'm angry. Nice. Fair enough.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Liz

They repeat stuff back to you that you've obviously he'd done something to me at some point and I'd gone to him. I'm really cross, I'm allowed to be angry. But when they flip it back at you, but that's that's him advocating for himself, right?

Mark

Wonderful, that sounds great. I've gotten a tiny epic win, which just completely took me aback. We were having dinner and Otto, who is notoriously clumsy Knocked over a glass of water. You know, when they knock over a glass of water and it spills across the whole length of the table, you're like, Oh my God. And I was sort of getting someone else's dinner ready while he did it. And so I didn't say anything. And he, without prompt being prompted, got up, got a towel, and went to himself, said, I suppose I should clean this up now. And he mopped up the water. without being prompted. This has never happened, Liz. He's never done this. He's never even shown any willingness to do this. I'd already assumed that I was going to have to do it because if I ask him to do it normally, he gets anxious about it. Yeah, like he gets, you know, it's a demand, and that I mean, I don't know if he's demand avoidant, but either way, it's not well received. So just watching him do it, I didn't say anything, I didn't interrupt. I was just like, what the? What on earth is going on? And he mopped it up. He didn't do a great job. I'll be honest. He left quite a few bits, but that's not the point. Yeah. Right? I obviously didn't correct him. I just went, you know, I. And I didn't praise him either because he doesn't like praise.

Liz

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

But I've stored it up in my head. So I know if he does it again, I will suggest it. And if he says no, I'll be like, no, but you did it before, and you did a fabulous job. I know you've got it in you. Yeah, that's a massive win for me that he actually did that on his own.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

So what the flip moments now? These are the moments that I think a lot of parents of neurodivergent kids experience when their child will say or do something that will completely flabbergast them and leave them unsure of quite how to respond. Do you have any what the flip moments for Adliz?

Liz

I do.

Mark

I do.

Liz

So my youngest is hypermobile, probably Elestanos. So I'm diagnosed as Elestanos. So he has this ability to get himself into positions that you look at and think how Why and is that comfortable? And I think it's and he still catches me with it. The things like, you know, I'll find him, we have Been an OT, I've got like big yoga balls in the house. Oh, yeah. And you'll often find that most kids will sit on them and bounce on them or they kind of run over top. You'll find him kind of upside down, over it, backwards. With an iPad watching a movie upside down in double speed. Is that a...

Mark

You do, you dude

Liz

Yeah, yeah. And what happens now is we kind of just go, yeah. and just walk past him. Or I'll find him kind of halfway up a stairs with in a really weird position, kind of really wedged into the stairs whilst listening to a piece of music and watching something on a screen and and we just step over him now.

Mark

You know sometimes you walk past People's houses, and you might look in the window and just a little look at what they're doing in their houses. There must be people walking past your house, like, what the hell is going on there?

Liz

Yeah, absolutely. I don't, I just If there's a weird position that he can get himself into, he will. And often people will go, Is he is that all right? And I'm like, Yeah, he's fine.

Mark

He'll let you know if he's not.

Liz

Yeah, he's comfortable and he's he's concentrating. And his favourite place to sit is on the stairs.

Mark

It's fine. Just let it slide. It's fine. I've got a a couple of what the flip moments. Um this is from India, who is increasingly unmasking and revealing her fabulous brain. Um, and I took India to a f to the farm recently. India loves animals and I wanted to spend a little bit of one-on-one time with her so I was like, Right, let's get at the farm. We went to the farm and we had a a lovely time. So we petted some goats. and we she fed some pigs and it was great. And we we were going to go to the cafe for some food. I went, Oh, you're supposed to wash your hands after petting the animals And I suspect that India is demand avoidant And if I needed evidence, what she said after that is all the proof I need. I said, You're supposed to wash your hands after putting the animals. And she said, Who said there's a rule about not breaking the rules? That was like, I had to stop and think about that for a bit.

Liz

That is deep for a seven-year-old.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God, that's really, I mean. Yeah, I guess. I don't I mean how'd you respond to that one? Well, you know, that's it. Well, I I can't I can't buy you a hot chocolate unless you wash your hands, so They're just the rules, and I follow them. But yeah, there's no response to that, is there? I just sort of chugged it off and hoped that she would comply. She did actually. Yeah, but that's only because the water was warm and she had cold hands.

Liz

So, you know, you've got to go in a different angle, right? Yeah, yeah. I love it when they come up with stuff like that. I never heard that before. No.

Mark

This is staggering. Um, there's one more from India that I'm going to bust out as well. Go on. She'd done a bunch of drawings and she wasn't happy with them, so she just screwed them up and left them on the table. So I asked her to put them in the bin, and she just ignored me and walked off. Which, you know, now I've got to do something, right? I can't I can't lose this little battle. So for some reason, the place I went to was I pretended to be a character called the Trash Elf who needed help to feed the bin. I put on this absurd accent and basically became the trash else that needed help. And India did everything that I asked. Like the trash elf was in charge. She did the paper, put the paper in the bin. I was like, Jesus, what else can I get the trash elf to do? The trash elf got to to load the dishwasher, to push all the chairs under the table, to tidy the crocs away. The trash elf was in charge for one moment in my life Brilliant. For some reason, a fictional elf has more respect in my house than I do. Fucking absurd situation. So, that is it for another episode of Neuroshambles. Liz, thank you so much for coming on and discussing parental burnout, which I'm sure is going to resonate with a lot of people. So, thanks for sharing that. Just take a moment to tell us a bit about your podcast because it is great. I love it. I've listened to it and yeah, and it it's Great, so let's share it with people.

Liz

Thank you. Yeah, it's called The Untypical OT Talks. Um, and at the moment, the series that I've got running is Are You the Perfect Parent? So, it's basically a lineup of guests coming on just to talk about parenting and their experience of parenting. The whole purpose of it was to make Was to break down that kind of stigma around what is the perfect parent that we try to aspire to be and to make parents feel a little less alone. that it's okay to do things the untypical way.

Mark

Yes, nice. Yeah. And you've got some great guests on there, some of whom we've had on our program.

Liz

Yeah, we have.

Mark

They've all pre-vetted and they're excellent.

Liz

And there is another guest that I know that could be coming on soon.

Mark

Yeah, I'm quite excited about coming onto a podcast and not having to edit it afterwards.

Liz

It's quite odd as well when you flip it around and you find someone else asking questions.

Mark

Yeah, so I'm looking forward to that. Uh so yeah, check out the Untypical OT uh talks podcast. Uh I'll put the link in the show notes. Thank you also for listening, Neuroshamblers. Genuinely appreciate all the lovely comments on the socials and people who email me and with topic suggestions. So please feel free to keep those coming in. If you want to email me, it's hello at neuroshambles. com. You can also follow us on TikTok. or Facebook or Instagram or Threads and all that remains for me to say now is have a nice life