Leaving The House | Hatty Ashdown

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 13 of Neuroshambles. Welcome back, Neuroshamblers. Thanks again for joining me As always, we've got another splendid episode coming up where I'm going to be meeting a guest to discuss a new topic of the week, which will hopefully resonate with a fair few of you, I should imagine. We've also got another poetry corner. some neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, and of course some classic what the flip moments from my own and my guests in neuroshambolic households. I also wanted to say thank you to everyone who got in touch with their thoughts about the most recent episode, which is the clothing one with Steph Curtis. Seems to have struck a chord with quite a few of you. In particular, Kat, who emailed to say Had to get in touch after listening to the most recent podcast episode as it was so incredibly relatable. Especially what you said about Jay struggling to tighten the Velcro straps on his shoes. My kid. used to do exactly the same thing and they would never be tight enough. It caused him a lot of angst and he would even stop every few steps to adjust them on the way to school, which, as you can imagine, made the journey pretty lengthy. I totally forgot to mention that part of it. Yeah, that that that's exactly what Jay does as well, every now and again if his shoes are not quite tight enough or something tiny is off with them. He will just stop in the street and take his shoes and socks off and growl at the world. And we have to just kind of wait until he's ready to start again Fun times. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts there, Kat. I really appreciate you getting in touch. And if anyone else wants to get in touch about something to do with the show, then please feel free to email hello at neuroshambles. com Anyway, less of this nonsense. Let's smash on with the show.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So I'm delighted to be able to welcome a new guest to the podcast. This is someone who I Kind of knew a very long time ago when we were on the comedy circuit together and we sort of lost contact. And here we are again. I am absolutely delighted to be able to welc Hatty Ashdown. How are you doing, Hatty?

Hatty

Woohoo! I'm here.

Mark

You are. I know. How are you?

Hatty

I'm good, thanks. I'm glad to be reconnected through being Neurodiverse legend parents.

Mark

That's yeah, I'll take that. Um so I just explained a bit about you, Hatty. You're a comedian, uh, obviously a parent of neurodivergent children as well. What tell us a little bit about your setup? Who who have you got with you?

Hatty

Right. Well, I should think of names. Let's say, well, this was I've got two boys and it's my oldest son who is the neurodiverse star. Let's call him Keith because. The other night on the on Radio 5 Live, he introduced me and when he was saying Anhatti and her son Keith and if you know my son's name, it is so far from Keith

Mark

You're going to have to remember this for all the anecdotes that we talk about from now on out here.

Hatty

And because this is so funny. So, yeah, I was like, it's not Keith. I corrected him, and then I thought afterwards, well, actually, I should have just left it. So, let's call it Keith, and the other one will say B. Okay. The thing is, if you go onto my Instagram, people, everyone knows their names.

Mark

But, you know, you've got to make them work for it.

Hatty

Well, I try and say the oldest and the youngest normally. So the oldest is eight, the youngest is five. And oldest Keith is got, it's so funny, he um I mean, no one has a newborn baby called Keith now, do they? Oh, baby Keith.

Mark

It'll come back in. Give it time.

Hatty

It'll come back. It'll be retro. He got diagnosed now. He's a so what was it? About three years ago now um with adhd and uh autism okay was a surprise at first Um yeah. And so far be not of the mu not and I don't see any Signs.

Mark

Okay. And how old sorry, how old is B?

Hatty

But the but the youngest is five.

Mark

Five, okay.

Hatty

And so he's in year, but he's in year one. He's a summer baby.

Mark

Okay.

Hatty

So

Mark

So you've got an undiagnosed neurotypical in there as well.

Hatty

Yes. At the moment. But I don't yeah, we've got our first parents even this week, so we'll see how that goes.

Mark

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Hatty

Keith, the oldest, I think that I I knew, I think, from about two and a half.

Mark

Okay.

Hatty

Um, whereas with the youngest, because of the oldest, it you sort of look you're sort of a it's just he's just so completely different. And the communication was always the problem with my oldest Whereas the communication with the youngest has been amazing. I mean, you know what I mean? If anything, he looks after us all. That's what I say. Because I'm be so I'm currently in the middle of being tested for ADHD.

Mark

Right, okay.

Hatty

I was diagnosed with dyslexia When I was younger. And then, you know, my friend said to me the other day, she went, Well, why'd you want to get diagnosed? I mean, sort of know because my counsel basically my counsellor brought it up Um and I was like, well, to be honest, it's just circumst I don't need, you know, I don't need official thing to tell me, but yeah, I've just I just thought may as well.

Mark

Just contextualizes some stuff, doesn't it I guess. Yeah. I just think it's understanding yourself a little bit more and giving yourself a break for some things that.

Hatty

Well, even having the assessment and answering some of the questions that I hadn't even thought about, I started like crying because I was like, I don't know where that.

Mark

Come from, yeah. It's like, what other people can just do this?

Hatty

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, I was thinking earlier when I was coming to do this podcast. And she said, How many times do you lose your phone a day? And I was like, And I couldn't find my phone to come and talk to you. And I thought, oh, we go. I was like, Yeah, a lot.

Mark

Okay, but you you you seem like a quite a happy neuroshambolic family from, you know, kind of um our conversations previously?

Hatty

I think so. Yeah, I think so. We we live and learn.

Mark

Absolutely. We're learning.

Hatty

We're very new. I'm a new baby. I think. to the camp of being a neurodiverse parent.

Mark

Yes.

Hatty

As in I know we got diagnosed a couple of years ago, but it's been like a slow Realization and accepting, if I'm honest.

Mark

No, okay, there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for introducing us to your household. Let's crack on with the topic of the week.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So the topic of this week is um leaving the house because again, anything to do with Neuroshambles. I I like to take a thing that most Neurotypical families will find straightforward and then point at it and go, It's not like that for us. There's all kinds of shit going on. So, obviously, you know, leaving the house with kids. Any kids, neurotypical or neurodivergent, is tricky. Let's start by saying that. It's not a phenomenon unique to neurodivergent setups that leaving the house is a bit of a nightmare. However, there are a whole load of additional issues that make leaving the house a significantly more stressful experience And the thing is, all of that happens behind closed doors. You're not out of the house yet, right? By definition. So we don't really see what other people have to do to get their lot out of the house. So I kind of thought it'd be quite interesting. To talk to other people and just sort of say, Well, this is what I do. I know everyone else has got their own stuff going on, but I just thought it'd be interesting to hear what other people do when they have to leave the house and shine a light into some of the rigmarole we have to go to to get the kids out the door So obviously a lot of neurodivergent kids have difficulty with transition. I think that's fu fundamentally what it is, is transition. It's going from one thing to another. And leaving the house is probably the most jarring form of transition for our kids. if you think about it, because they're going from their safe space, right, a place that they know and they're familiar with, and to a degree where the variables are controlled as much as possible. And then Madness reigns. They're just out in the world, and we can't control all those variables. We can't control the noise or the amount of people or the traffic or the dogs or any of the triggers.

Hatty

Time. Can't control time. I wish I could freeze it. It'd be so good if I could freeze it. um while get him ready. Yes. There's so many layers to getting out of the door. Um I don't know where to start really. I guess time his awareness of time, which I know again a lot of kids have. And I you know, I h I speak to other parents and it's like, how do you make them understand? That you know, we're going to be late, we're going to be late means nothing to them, means absolutely nothing. But again, not to keep comparing, but it's really good for me in a way because it's like, oh, because my youngest doesn't have that problem, he he is on board a bit more with that So um he doesn't want to be late. He doesn't he gets like worried and um He's not like nervous or anything, but he's just a bit more aware of time.

Mark

So if you say the word hurry up, it has a tangible effect on him.

Hatty

He has a you know, he's still. It still meanders around like I do. It's like being with drunk people, isn't it? This is like trying to get two drunk people out Out the door where they're sort of putting their shoes on, and then somehow the shoes have come back off again, and stuff like how did that happen? So let's okay, let's take going to school 'cause there's a difference between getting up and going to school and then the difference between the weekend or you know, you're on a half term. Um, going to school. I'm lucky that he likes going to school. Um, so I don't have at one point it was hell because I had him that like just can't do the transition, forgets what he's doing. Goes upstairs to get dressed. I go up there, and of course, he hasn't got a dress. He's forgot that that's what he's gotten up there to do.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Hatty

Which happens all the time. My kid, if I said Go and get your socks. Like, he knows where his sock draw is, he knows where his t-shirt draws, like, because he's eight, he's got a bit better at that now. But if I said, go and get your socks Guarantee, 100%, I could put 50 quid on it. He will forget. He will forget.

Mark

But is it actually him

Hatty

Forgetting completely, or is it him getting distracted by a bit of Lego? And it's um you know or it's this book a book mainly. I mean, it's just crazy bookworms. He even calls himself self-declared.

Mark

Otto has exactly the same thing. It's like distraction is a major problem. Like he's He started putting pants on before and they're not finished. He just left them round his ankles and got up and went to do something else. And just like waddling around like

Hatty

It's I mean, we we have to laugh at it because it it because it's so distracting. If you lay the clothes out, which I I've now given in To trying to make him this sort of now, don't get me wrong, I'm not mothering him. He's you know, he's gonna he's because he's gonna be at school and he has to dress himself and undress himself for school For swimming. I was going to say for swimming over piny. So, you know, he can dress himself, but I mean I for a while I was really and I don't know whether this is something you've talked about the battles you choose your battles yeah and yeah I was trying to make him be like right okay I'd show him what drawer, what is in what drawer, like uniform tops here, blah blah. And so, but it just took so long. So now, Mark, I just get the whole uniform, I lay it out like a person on the side.

Mark

Excellent.

Hatty

And he just gets it. That's not you mothering him.

Mark

That's just you reducing some of the, you know, the potential kind of sticking points. It's not you know, we have to we have to improvise with our kids. It's not, you know, it's Yeah, I wouldn't feel bad about doing that. It's just like, here are the things. Oh, this is a visual reminder for him of what he needs to do.

Hatty

But it does mean as well, he because also I should say I'm a triple threat because I'm also now a single parent. So I'm doing this on my flipping own, um, is that he will like, yeah, be so distracted that he has literally Put it on backwards. He's put them yeah.

Mark

Inside out. That's a thing. Inside out.

Hatty

Oh, always. I mean, we always know it's a PE day because he comes out with his clothes on inside out from school. You go, oh, it was PE today then, was it?

Mark

I often feel like this with Otto. I don't know if you've ever read Gulliver's Travels, right? But there's a bit in Gulliver's Travels, which is brilliant. There's a whole island. Full of scientists. It's called Laputa, right? And there are scientists that walk around and they are so deep in scientific thought that they forget to listen or to speak. And so they have these little people following them around with inflatable bladders on sticks and they're called flappers. And they have to bop them on the ears when they have to listen Or them on the mouth when they need to talk, right? Which is insane. But I'm thinking that would genuinely be quite helpful in my household if someone sort of reminded Otto when he needed to listen, or when he needed to just bop his pants that are around his ankles and maybe pull those up. It's a Swiftian nightmare in our household But mainly with Otto, to be fair.

Hatty

The other genius. Is Otto the one that has more of the listening problem?

Mark

He presents kind of more distractively with his ADHD. So, so Jay is also diagnosed with ADHD, but he he can watch a program till the end Or he can read a book and hyper-focus, whereas Otto is constantly thinking about the next thing and doing the next thing and being distracted. Buy stuff. So it is much more difficult for him. That process of like, let's go quickly, just doing that is a bit of a nightmare. And it sounds like Keith. has a similar a similar thing.

Hatty

I'd say he's a bit of the both because it it it sort of I feel like he goes through phases, which is another thing I'd say to anyone listening. It's like it's never boring because I feel like, I don't know. It's like, I don't know if it's something with the moon. I don't know what it is, but I feel like we'll go through a phase where it's like this couple of weeks, he's really Like anxious at the moment, and he'll be very tearful. He'll go through, it feels like he goes through phases where he just sort of feels like he's a man, so he's like a man on the edge. You know, his wife's left him, and he's And everything so and it's like just don't mention it. It's like it's literally not that. But then that kind of can go. And you you know, obviously With help, you know, different people, especially I talk to, you break it down, you go, Why is he doing this? Is he not getting much sleep? Has this happened in his life? Blah, blah, blah. And then the next time he'll be much more chilled.

Mark

Yeah. And well, what I've learned is that's just kind of a build up of different things. And sometimes there's just, you know, things that you're not even aware of There's like a drill next door, or the extractor fans on, and all of a sudden it just heightens with Otto again in particular, it just kind of heightens his anxiety, and that then spills over into you know, all the other things that That you're sort of seeing, and it might not even be things that you're aware of, or it it might be something that you know that he's anxious about going to school about, or whatever it is. And then it presents in a different way, and Otto doesn't really have the kind of understanding to articulate that to me. So I have to look for clues. You've got to look for the clues. I once had this, and it was like in a really kind of He was really anxious and trying to have a conversation with Tam, and he's sort of just getting really wound up. And I realized it was literally the extractor fan was on. And it was really getting to him, but he didn't know that. And so I just turned that off, and it's like, ah, okay. And he totally calmed down. And it's just like looking for those clues and working out what could be causing it. Could just be hungry.

Hatty

And I yeah, and I have a noise sensitive thing. Oh, I can't stand certain noises. So and that's only something that I've sort of like put two and two together at.

Mark

So back back to the theme of distraction, because I think it's quite an interesting one because like you're saying, you know, all kids get distracted But this is the next level of distraction of when you like even getting them to near the front door. Like, all we got to do now. I can see the door, you've got your shoes on. You know, now we can go. That again, that's not cut and dry for me because I've got three of them and they all do their own different things. They've all got their own agendas, right? Jay also gets distracted. But by physical stuff, we've got a gorilla gym in our house. Have you ever heard of a gorilla gym?

Hatty

No.

Mark

That shit is amazing. Basically, it goes over the door frame and it's this like apparatus. That they can swing on like this. So you've got a swing attachment and rings and a trapeze attachment and a ladder and they can climb on it basically. And it's you don't have to bolt it in or anything, it just kind of attaches to the door frame, and it's amazing because they can just let out this

Hatty

You know, their excellent ordering that today, it is amazing, and for anyone listening, I'm going to put it in the show notes because it is.

Mark

I can't recommend it highly enough, and it's been really good to kind of let off this this energy that they have and to give them that sort of sense of freedom of being able to climb around the house in sort of permitted areas. Not that they stay to those areas. Jesus. No, they're all over the place. But it is particularly enticing to Jay as we're trying to get him out the door for some reason. He's like, all right, now is the time that I'm going to keep climbing upside down. And it's like, dude, I know it's appealing. but that's not what's on the list now. Right now, you could choose to go right out the door like we're supposed to, but no, he's chosen to go left and to climb on the on the gorilla gym and then I've got that whole battle to fight whilst trying to get the others like funneling them out the door as well. So distraction is very, um, very prevalent in our household. And that is one of the killers of uh of getting everyone out of the house in the same uh at the same time.

Hatty

Yeah, ours is Lego, I think.

Mark

Yeah.

Hatty

I don't we don't have many toys downstairs now.

Mark

Oh, that's a good idea, yeah.

Hatty

We don't for that for that reason. I just I've tried to do that thing. It doesn't always work, by the way, I don't always remember, of having a box. So I got this thing where they each have a box. And then the idea is I rotate whatever's in that box.

Mark

Okay.

Hatty

It's kind of called their bored box. So the idea is like if they're bored or to play have a look what's in the box. It does at the moment it's all a bit like messed up. But as well as that, there's a couple of Lego boxes and yeah, they when when I'm sort of like it's like when your back's turned and I'm doing the pet lunch and I'm quick 'cause I've forgotten and I'm saying, go wait by the door. Just go and wait by the door And then it's like they've looked round, they've really got to do this later and then they're going to be, you never let me play What? You've had all morning, or you know, all of last night you could have played. Now he's not, you know, and then it's like, you're me, I had this tonight, actually. You're mean, you're the meanie, meanie mummy.

Mark

It's like you have no idea.

Hatty

I know.

Mark

They don't know how lucky they are.

Hatty

They really don't.

Mark

So obviously, like you say, there are, you know, getting out that house, there's the distractibility. So we have to put in strategies in place. Because it's not just being distracted. There is an element of anxiety around leaving the house, whether they acknowledge it or not, or whether we're aware of it or not Leaving the house causes anxiety to a degree that they then choose to kind of, you know, smooth over by being distracted by other things or with other strategies. So we've got to find any way that we can to smooth this transition. So one of the best strategies I think that we can put in place is letting them know what What's out there? Letting them know the plan. Where are we going? Because that's a lot of the anxiety: I don't know what we're doing. I don't, I can't visualize it now. My kids, some Autistic kids really benefit from social stories where you kind of show them pictures and you really help them to visualize you are going to go to this place and you're going to see this person and you're going to do this, and then next we're going to do this, and after that you're going to My kids don't really need to know that, they just need to know a broad plan, and for different reasons So Otto is anxious about not really knowing what we're doing. So any new experience he gets particularly anxious about. Jay, on the other hand, has. PDA, right? Pathological demand avoidance. I don't know if you're familiar with this.

Hatty

I'm not very familiar with it.

Mark

It's something that I talk about a lot in the podcast. And there may there I'm sure there are other people going, what the hell is he talking about? So it is also kind of known as pervasive desire for autonomy. That's probably a better way of phrasing it. They are anxious if they're not in control Or if they feel like their control has been taken away from them, and that anxiety can either lead to meltdowns from a kind of Like a flight perspective, they might run away, or they might freeze, or in Jay's case, it's fight. Now, mostly verbal, where he'll be very rude and very acerbic, but increasingly at the moment physical as well, that he'll kind of lash out a bit. So anything we can do to sort of ease that transition out of the house, we have to kind of seize upon. And so from Otto's point of view, he needs to know the plan. From Jay's point of view, he needs to feel like he is part of the decision-making process as to why we're leaving the hou

Hatty

So, what if you're having a day out? If you say you're going to a zoo or something, how would that work? Would you tell them the night before, or would you still tell them in that morning?

Mark

This is an excellent question. Because all of my kids need different timeframes for when this information is revealed to them. If I told Otto the day before, he might start worrying about it. Because he doesn't just sit with that and go, okay, I know the plan. He might then start going, oh, like, what if a tiger gets out? And I mean, it's he sort of catastrophizes a lot and he worries about things. So actually. Letting him know too far in advance isn't particularly helpful. But for Jay, he needs to have made the decision that we're going to the zoo He needs to be on board with that plan. So you've got to, it's, yeah, that's part of the fun. So laying out the broad plan is important Um, so we just had half term and I was solo parenting and for the first time I introduced like a timetable, which is Just, you know, I don't want to I don't want a parent by a timetable. Who thought that? When they're like, you know what kind of parent I'm going to be? One that is on time and on schedule. I'm going to be an admin freak. I'm not. That's not me.

Hatty

Exactly. Exactly.

Mark

But you got to do what you got to do. So I got this timetable. It's like AM this is what we're doing in the morning, this is what we're doing in the afternoon, and this is what's for dinner. And then they could see it. Obviously, for Jay, that was helpful. For India, also that was helpful. To let her know what's going on. And Otto would see some things and they'd be like, What's going on? Thursday afternoon, what's that mean? What does that mean? It's like, I have to sort of. Talk him through it. So there is that the that kind of fun side of things, really. But essentially, from Otto's perspective, he just needs to know That's a trusted adult is going to be there to help him get through it. As long as he knows that, he's on board with it. But if it's like, you know, if you say you're going to table tennis club. Right? I'm not going to be there, and he knows I'm not going to be there. That is a massive problem for him, and he will be really anxious about that for ages. So that's just kind of how he needs it

Hatty

And have you ever been in a situation where you have had to force him to go into something he doesn't want to go in?

Mark

Oh, regularly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing with Otto is that. He doesn't he doesn't trust us. Still, do you know what I mean? It's like, now do we ever, do we don't force you to do dangerous shit? We haven't ever just like pushed you into some paintballing and left you. Yeah, like his worst nightmare. I sometimes think, where have you got this from? Exactly. Where is this lack of faith in my parenting come from? And it's obviously come from somewhere. But there are some times where. Like he is getting anxious, and I have to basically just take control. And I've said that to him as well before when he's like melting down. Who's like, I'm taking control of the situation now, you don't need to worry about it, I'm in control, and this is what we're doing. And then he'll do it, and then as soon as he gets through the doors and he sees what it is, and I'm be I'm with the With him for a few minutes, he's totally fine.

Hatty

Yeah, I think they need to feel sort of heard and that. And I think I'm always trying to pick up tips. I think I read or heard on some podcasts about one thing, is you could. even write it down, like what you and show them. Um I I tried to do this with with uh Keith the other day. I can't even remember what it was about now. I went, Look, why don't I write it down? And he went, No, don't! He screamed because he thought I was going to get him to write. He hates writing, hates writing so much. And I was like, no, I'll write it down. But even just me writing seemed to make him angry. I was like, okay, that's not going to work for you.

Mark

Yeah, so he'd already kind of tipped over. That was like, he'd already kind of got so anxious about it. But.

Hatty

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Mark

Discussing it was too much.

Hatty

Yeah, that's the thing with him. And he'd all, you know, I was trying to, when you were saying that, I was like, oh, which one? I don't know. It's a little bit of both really. And I think it's funny because I said about my youngest, I don't think there's anything there. But sometimes, sometimes, I think there's a tiny bit of autism just because Actually, funny enough, he's more the one that's worried about going to new situations or we had an awful situation with a party with him. A family party and he was kicking and screaming. And it was like, my husband said, I'll just sit in the car with him. But I was like, no, he's got to. I was of the thing of like, no, he's got to learn he's got to learn. Like, it's fine. It's just all fam And in the end, we just wanted him to see that it was fine. And he came in and he was fine.

Mark

Yeah.

Hatty

Whereas my child who is diagnosed, one thing With him, is he doesn't have fear of new things. He has that no barrier thing. no boundaries thing, which I always used to confuse. So when he was getting tested for ADHD and they said about the autism and they said about different attributes. I was like, Oh, I just always thought he was super confident.

Mark

Yeah, I had that with Jay. I was like, Oh, he's so sociable, isn't he? Yeah. He's like, No, no, he does not give a fuck about anything.

Hatty

He'd get up on stage every show we've gone to where that is a kid show he's up on stage um in E dinburgh every kid show he was he was the one on stage i love it but In terms of whether he would need to know, funny enough, as he's getting older, he does need to know. But the problem I struggle with. is that because of his ADHD, he hates and I relate to this, he hates disappointment.

Mark

Oh, yeah, yeah. Changes of plan. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a huge thing as well. Yeah.

Hatty

So I can't so for example, I've learnt now. So say if it's just a simple thing of going to my sisters and they love going, they love my sister. I won't tell him now until the very last minute because of my I've had my sister you know say oh I'm sick or whatever and then ah So I know. So it's a real difficult one because I don't want him to be in a situation that he can't handle, but then who when do I tell him?

Mark

So it is the timing issue. That's the thing that I think that's what other people don't have to deal with. You have to work out like the timings because the different children need to know different bits of information at different times. And you also have to factor in that those plans might change, in which case everything goes to shit. Well like we had this um again with the with when I had the ki the kids uh in half term. Uh on the Sunday morning I was like, car boot sale Right, we bloody love a car boot sale because I can go there, I can give them £2. £1.50 budget each, and they can go and shop like kings. Like, because everyone's throwing away their tap for like 10 piece, and they could get loads of tap, and it's great. And I just let it let them loose, and it's all fine. But on the Sunday morning, it rained. and the car boot sales off. And India could not handle that. She was absolutely just beside herself with Fury. It was rage and disappointment. And it's like, I tried really hard because I let you know what the plan was. Because obviously, I'm trying to aid this transition out of the house. I'm trying to get us to leave the house and look forward to it and be excited by it That then it becomes a crushing disappointment, and you lose that way. So I can't win.

Hatty

I'm thinking about when we went to the British, I haven't been back to the Natural History Museum because I'm scarred for life. He was just in the mood from the start, and we should never have gone.

Mark

Let me just give you a little bit of advice here They have autism-friendly sessions at the Natural History Museum, which we've cleaned. This is what I need to do now. Dornosaurs, it's called. And you you go early, it's early morning, but there are very few people around. Lights are up, sound is down, it is we've been before Big heads up. Go I mean, they do it occasionally, not that often, but look at where the next one is and do that because you'll get all of that joy and non-formers.

Hatty

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Mark

Um yeah, 'cause yeah, we we went and it was great.

Hatty

You have to go in the um there's like you know like you know, some people call it the boring room where there was just some like minerals or something, right? And no one was in there, but we had to take him in there just to let him kick it all out And chill out. And, you know, hopefully it was just too.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, no, it is.

Hatty

We never saw any dinosaurs. We raced to Andy's clock And had a photo there and then left.

Mark

Yeah, well, yeah, you definitely, I think dinosaurs is made for you and Keith. Okay. So, yeah, crack on. The problem is, right? With leaving the house. As you alluded to earlier, sometimes we're doing stuff they don't want to do. Like there's school. If they're on board with school, okay, that's fine. Jay is resisted to school at the moment, so that adds an extra Like spanner in the works, but he understands that it's a thing that he needs to do, so he will kind of agree. But there are some times when, as a family, you have to do stuff. that not everyone wants to do, and that becomes a flipping nightmare.

Hatty

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

I mean, how do you handle that with Keith? Is Keith kind of res resistant to that sort of thing

Hatty

Generally, um my oldest is is is good with that, but if it's yeah, so something he doesn't want to do particularly, like so that would either be shopping Or just generally, he's got it in his mind. Like he l they just both of them are homeboys. Like they love staying at home and we've we've sort of like it seems to be my youngest that'll often come up with the ideas of what we're going to do. It's like, oh mummy, can we do this tomorrow? you know. I'll say, okay, we'll do that. And then When it comes to it, for whatever reason, he's like, No, I don't feel like going even if it's something quite good, you know, going to the park. Right. He's like No, I don't want to do that. Even when he came up with the idea in the first place? Well, no, say so No, if he's come up with it, that no, if he's come up with it, that is happening.

Mark

Right. Is this key?

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah.

Hatty

But I'm saying normally a lot of the time with what we're doing, especially now, um This is what I've heard is happen and it I can see why it happens when you're a single parent, they become like little adults because I go to them, what do you want to do? What do you want to do at the weekend? And like my youngest is really good with coming up with ideas. So he'll say gravity or park or whatever. And then I have to say, he sort of generally, you know, Keith generally goes along with it. Um but if it yeah, if it's but then he can change his mind. He's like, Oh, he's having a nice time watching telly or whatever, or it's like, Oh, I don't don't really want to go. Um I just I probably do all the wrong things. I just do a lot of bargaining. Um I do a lot of Yeah, I do all the wrong things. I do. Yeah, that's the thing.

Mark

Like, Jay would be the one that puts his foot down, but no amount of bargaining really would get him to do it. Once he's decided, that's it. He's not because you've taken control away from him, therefore, he will not go along with that unless you can make a really compelling reason why he should do that. I think giving them a a long lead in is important So letting them finish what they're doing is really important. So what the most often asked question in our house is usually, how long's left on this? Because if they get screen time, right?

Hatty

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

And I think in neurotypical families, it's like, right, turn it off, we're off now, we're going out. That would never wash in my household. So it is always. How long's left? Right. Okay. When that finishes, then you get your shoes on.

Hatty

Are yours really? Because I, again, find this when I go to other people's houses, can't believe. How other people's kids just about the lap the iPads there and they're like they might look at it for a bit, then they'll put it down My kids, we have to have strict times on it because I honestly think if I just let them, they just be on it all day long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can't control themselves.

Mark

Well, it's but think about it from their perspective. It's a it's a safe thing to do. They it's predictable, right? I I know I was re I saw a thing on Instagram recently with where someone was explaining this and I was like, oh, totally makes sense. It's like particularly if if they've got P D A, they are in control. They can pause it, they can rewind it, they can skip it, they they can watch exactly what they want to watch, they're fully in control. And that feeling is a comfort to them and it's it's a safe space for them. So it it totally makes sense to me that that is what he experiences What Jay experiences in particular. And Otto, similarly, is very distractible. So he flicks around. He loves music. So he's on Spotify And he flicks around all the time. He never finishes the end of a song, but he's flipping about. And again, that's rewarding to him, and that's kind of a comfort to him. So. I'm fine with that.

Hatty

But when you need to get them to break away from that, as you've experienced, it's not easy. So that's where it's like, how long? I know, I've had all that advice of like you say to them Okay, just to let you know, I'm gonna do it in five minutes, but I find it makes absolutely no difference to him because again Like, no awareness of time.

Mark

Okay, no, no, no, but yeah, no, that's why I don't say in five minutes. I ask how long is left on the episode and when the episode finishes and the credits roll or something else comes on, they know that that is a timer. And also, I'm not the one imposing the end, if you see what I mean, because the program is doing that. That's out of my Kind of jurisdiction, if you like. So we're just sort of saying, agree that what's the end of this, then get your shoes on.

Hatty

Yeah, but we honestly, that doesn't work either because we I'll say the end of this, and then unless I'm well, it's fine if we're sort of yeah, say it's the weekend and I'll say the end of this, or we're going out the door, I can keep an eye. But if I look away myself They've started watching another one, you see. And then I go, wait a minute. And they he's because he's got no control.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. And you also, you know, you also have the added variable that that you are distractible as well because you're suspected ADHD. So you're you're the one that's supposed to be keeping track of this to enforce it and

Hatty

Can you imagine what it's like for us trying to get out the door? How many times do you think we get out the door and then I have to go I have to go reminiscent kids? and they have to walk back up the road and I have to go back in and get something I've forgotten or turn something off, it's nightmare

Mark

Because you have to do this timer, this countdown to like we're leaving in five minutes, and particularly when we're leaving for school, I have to go and tell Jay in five minutes we're leaving, just so he's got that. He doesn't like to be Kind of surprised by it. But I do genuinely worry about what would happen if we need to leave the house in an emergency. in an emergency, we'd be screwed if something's on fire. It's like, right, everyone out of the house now. I'd get Jay with his P D A going, No This is not a joint decision. You're not a dictator. I will not yield to your authority. So, I mean, obviously, once he's aware of the full facts and the fact the kitchen's on fire, he would probably quite reasonably decide to leave with us. Otto might just freeze because it's like it's unexpected and he's panicking because of the anxiety. I genuinely, it's a fear of mine that if something like that happens, my lot are going to be a fucking nightmare to get out of the house.

Hatty

Well, I'll tell you what you don't do is panic like I did when a magpie flew into the house and All I heard was I think I opened the door to put the bins out or something, as I do, left the door open because I was going to go back out again. And then all I heard was this sort of scratchy noise. And I thought it was a cat that's coming, 'cause that's happened before. I thought, oh, it's cat's come in and run under the sofa No, a magpie come in and flew under the sofa. Oh my God. So I'm expecting a cat to come out and then suddenly this magpie flew up It seemed like the biggest thing in the world. It felt like we had a hawk to me. And I went and they screamed. Because they panicked as well, and I just went honestly, we thought we're murdering.

Mark

I went, Go upstairs, lock the door, call 999.

Hatty

And then I had to try and get yeah, get it out. I did get it out eventually.

Mark

But did they react quickly? Did they respond to the instructions?

Hatty

But they that's what I mean So you'd be surprised they ran upstairs.

Mark

Oh, that's it.

Hatty

But had Buzz but I don't I can't remember what they were doing exactly, but had Keith been on the iPad, might have been different.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, exactly

Hatty

Yeah, how long's left?

Mark

Right, well when that's finished, get the fuck out of the way of the magpie.

Hatty

Yeah, because he's as I say, he's got boundari he's got he's got no boundaries with a lot of things, but animals, he's quite scared of a lot of animals

Mark

So, um yeah, yeah, okay.

Hatty

That's what I need to do. I just need to get a dog barking at the door and then he'd be he'd be out the door.

Mark

What release the hounds? If you don't leave in five minutes, I'm going to release the hounds.

Hatty

Yeah, it's a proper 80s parenting.

Mark

Come on. Now, obviously, you know, with neurodivergent kids, it's not just the distractibility. It's not just the kind of compliance of leaving the house at the same time or the ability to kind of stop what they're doing or the fact you have to give them a long lead in. sometimes it's the sheer logistics of get uh of of physically putting shoes on or physically like this is a big problem with Otto. So he has um Issues with the relationship between his mind and his body and spatial awareness and all of that, he has real difficulty with his fine motor skills. So if I say go put your shoes on He does his thing where he sits in the middle of the doorway, right? So we I have to get everyone out through our porch, right? Our porch is tiny It's like a metre cubed, right? Not cubed, because that means The ceiling's also a metre. No, it's not like being John Malkovich.

Hatty

Well, there's times where you're like, What was the point in this porch?

Mark

Yeah, it's tiny, but we got that's that's the exit, right? So, trying to get everyone dressed and out via that space is a logistical nightmare. And Otto has this thing where he has no spatial awareness. So he'll go and put he'll put his shoes on, but he'll be in the middle of the doorway So, people can't get past him.

Hatty

Oh, yeah.

Mark

And Jay is not one for I'll wait till you finish, or not one for sort of I'll sidestep you. He will just kick him out of the way, or he'll just barge straight past him which then causes Otto anxiety because he feels pain like uh a lot more keenly than uh other people. So he's then like freaking out I'm just like now trying to get Jay to calm down. And it's just the logistics of having to get through that tiny space is itself just an absolute flipping nightmare.

Hatty

I always say my dream would be to have a porch that's quite big, so not as big as a room, and there's nothing in there, absolutely nothing in there Maybe it's a bit padded, basically a padded cell. And they're all ready, they're in their school uniform, they're in they've got their backpacks on, and I just say, just stand there, just stand there. And there's no distraction.

Mark

But they won't just stand there though, will they?

Hatty

No, he would find a distraction in a little fluff.

Mark

One of the other things that that I get is when the kids have their own agenda. And again, this is a it's a For particularly strong Jay trait, where if he's ready to go, we're fucking going, right? Doesn't matter if anyone else is ready, right? So he'll just open the door, he's off. He's down the street. We're just like, hang on a second. Otto is still trying to put the rest of his outfit together. Whatever. He's got one shoe on, and I can't tell him to hurry up because that. causes more panic. Jay's off down the road. India d uh sensed freedom as well, so she's off out. And they also do this thing. We're on a hill, we live on a hill

Hatty

And for some reason You're the little mad family that lives on a hill exactly.

Mark

That's how we're referred to. So for some reason, they love going uphill to the top of the hill. and then running full speed down the hill. So one will go in one direction down the hill, particularly if he's some somewhere it's you know, if Jay wants to get somewhere For any reason, he'll go down the hill, the other one will go up the hill. Otto's still around behind me, trying to get his shoes on, and I'm still in the middle. The neighbours are watching this as well because you know, we're not a quiet family. It's an absolute shit show. And I had this recently as well. India is now learning to do this. So I had the medical appointment with Otto recently, and I had to bring India with me. And I'm talking to the counsellor about Otto and how it all went. And Indy behind me has got a little footstool, put it by the door, unlocked it, opened it. She's out into the street. I'm like, dude, you are the one I could fucking rely on. Yeah. What is this?

Hatty

So where's that come from?

Mark

Oh, I was obviously learning.

Hatty

They always keep you on your toes.

Mark

Let's say just a normal day, right? What what would your routine be? Let's just assume that, you know, that they've had breakfast and that They brush their teeth, that kind of thing, right? But the final, the final bit of leaving the house, how do you handle that?

Hatty

Well, I was going to say, actually, I am getting more regimented now. Again, being on my own and stuff, I am trying to do that thing of. getting myself dressed first because, you know, it's that safety first. Put your mask on.

Mark

We'll be going to crash. Get your armor on.

Hatty

Yeah, we we were trying for a while I had this clock of just normal clock and I put stickers on it Uh again something I read or whatever about um so I put stickers that said um different things like nearly time to go or like and and and also like pictures so they knew like it would have like a picture of shoes and stuff like that to give it more visual thing. And again, the youngest really got on board with this. I find with stuff like that, Keith is all on board with it for the first day It's novel. He's like, this is exciting. This is a new thing. Next day, no, it's boring. So we were trying that for a while. But there does seem to be this lost time between I will think, Oh, we're doing really well and they're all dressed and everything, but then something happens in this time where they got That they've then got to get their shoes on and get out. So I would say, so say it's a school day, it will literally be me getting all the packed lunches and everything by the front door, and then I'm saying, get your shoes on. Sometimes I get them out and lay them there and I've got this thing about like sit on the step and we've got like a step at the bottom of the stairs to do it because If I just give them to Keith, he'll walk off, one will get lost.

Mark

Yes, yes.

Hatty

It's like I have to say, come and sit here and put them on. Because otherwise one's gone, he's put one on, he's lost a sock or he's forgot he's forgot he's forgot. I've actually was saying about getting the the the putting things on inside out he's like taken things off before and I'm like no you're putting them on yeah And then because it's two, and obviously you've got three, so my heart goes out to you. If I've done one and then I'm like, now get your coat. And sometimes if we're having a good morning He will go and get the coat and he'll put it on, but he never gets his bag. He's got a bit of and he's getting better at that. But sometimes It'll be, he's got his shoes on, then I'm doing the shoes, the other one. I turn around, and it's like you've lost control. Yeah, yeah, and he started to. play with Lego or whatever. And then it's back to that one and you're I'm scurring him. Always I forget to do the youngest one's hair. He's got long hair and it gets all knotty. So normally the routine is as we're walking out, I'm spraying it and I'm brushing it as we're walking out. And I just take I probably again to probably do it all wrong, 'cause I just carry all the bags. I'm like a donkey. And like you said, at the moment, we've got this routine where it seems to work, though. When Keith is already, he's got the coat and the shit. I'm like, just get him out that door. And he just stands out the front, but he doesn't stand. He's sort of. paces.

Mark

Yes, yes.

Hatty

And he's in his own little world playing one of his scenarios. But I'm like, he's out.

Mark

Yes.

Hatty

And then but then the other morning I think it was so in his scenario. The youngest went, He's gone to school. He started walking and he's gone a bit too far. And I was like, Where are you? He sort of forgot, and even he looked shocked You know, you're like, oh, because I guess it's muscle memory to that, that's what they do.

Mark

My typical exit routine is Always the same. So basically, at exactly 25 minutes past eight is the time where I'm like It's go time. Now I know that different children need different warnings, so I will go up and tell Jay. Jay's more reluctant, so I need to give him sort of five-minute warning, and he is very grumpy about the whole Thing and will be reluctant, but I'll just give him notice and then I'll get the other two to get ready, get their shoes on. There's the constant battle over whether they're going to wear a coat or not. even if it's absolutely throwing it down with rain. It's something I've covered in the the most recent episode I did about clothing. They don't seem to want to wear coats and I've ceased to but I'll put it in their bag. And then if the teacher asks it's in their bag, I'm parenting, right? So So there's all that side of things. But crucially, I've got to get Otto and India ready and out of the way. Because the moment that Jay comes down It's like the running of the bulls in Pamplona. Where you open that door, and he is just like a ball of fury because he doesn't want to leave the house. He doesn't want to. go to school. So he's stomping around, he's being rude, he's sort of lashing out. So everyone gets out of the way. But Otto often forgets to get out of the way So I'm sort of making sure that India's doing what India's doing. And all of a sudden I turn around and Otto's wandered into Jay's path. He might even still be sitting in the doorway putting his shoes on. And I'm just like, no, let's try and physically separate them. Or Jay is on the the gorilla gym, so I have to drag him down from the gorilla gym.

Hatty

Oh, yeah.

Mark

Or I say, Jay, go get your shoes on, and he'll go and get his shoes on, but he won't put them on in the porch. Because why would you? That's near where we're leaving. So he goes to a different part of the house and puts them on. So then I'd go to Otto, Can you go and wait in the porch? India, go and wait in the porch. The tiniest porch, bear in mind. and then just hope that they don't just let themselves out. And eventually I chase Chase Jay down and go, Right now we're leaving. He's arguing about it. Funnily funnel everyone in. And then bags on, but I forgot because when they're waiting in the porch, they don't put their bags on because that's an instruction too far. So I have to then put the bags on for them. But again, that takes up space in the porch. So there's jostling and there's like There's just this physical logistics of trying to do it. And then I have to open the door, but the door opens into the porch. It doesn't open outwards like a helpful door, it opens inwards, and Otto is always standing in the way. It doesn't matter how many times. So he's still not learned that he has to get out of the way of the door. So I'm like, can you move out of the way? And then, like. Jay is sort of shoving him out of the way, and then it all kicks off there. So eventually we get everyone out of the house. And it is it feels like the house breathes a sigh of relief After all of that, like I can imagine what it's like being our house when everyone's out, just the silence and the tranquility for that brief moment in time And then but this morning, Jay was refusing to go out of the house for whatever reason. I had a particularly traumatic morning with him this morning. So I physically ejected him from the house like a bouncer. I haven't had to do that before, but the only way I could do that was by making it a joke and he was okay. Like I made it like uh I b basically pretended to be a bouncer and and got

Hatty

Kind of that's what uh yeah, Keith reacts to that really well. That if you if you sort of tickle or I put him over my shoulder and say, Right, okay, I'm putting you in the bin.

Mark

Then that's it.

Hatty

Yeah, you can adopt a character.

Mark

Humour is so important. Actually, that's another thing I forgot about Jay. If he refuses to come down sometimes, I unless The shit we have to do, Hatty. I then say, Right, the train is leaving, and the train is me carrying him over my shoulder down the stairs. I've got to get him down two flights of stairs. Be careful not to bang his head on the wall just to get him into the porch. And then I'll put him in the porch where his shoes are, and he'll still fuck off somewhere else as soon as I put him down. But then you'll go into school on the school run, and someone will go, Oh, I had a bit of a nightmare getting my kids in today. I had to tell them twice to get their shoes on. It's like, Yeah. You have no idea. You have no idea what I've had to deal with. Sometimes you will get the odd unexpected curveball as well from the kids, just them being. neurodivergent little humans. It was one day recently where India came downstairs wearing a fedora. had found had found a fedora. Now I'm relatively sure that that's not in the school uniform policy. And uh but sort of emerged and sort of presented herself and went da da and I was like, that looks amazing, but you can't wear it to go to school.

Hatty

Yes.

Mark

You know, you'll lose it or something. And she went into an absolute fury. She was like, she couldn't believe it. Because obviously she looked amazing and she thought she looked. Amazing, and why should I? Why shouldn't she be allowed to go in wearing a fedora for a number of reasons? Um, so I'm trying to deal with that at the same time that Otto, for the first time, probably ever has decided that he wants to do his homework of his own volition, right? Shit, this doesn't happen. Okay, I'm going to facilitate this. So then I sort of get his homework book open. I'm like, that's fantastic. And obviously you want to encourage him to do that. But it's like ten minutes before we have to leave. So I don't want to hurry him up because again, that's going to cause him anxiety. So I'll just kind of lay it out and I'll I'll let you kind of carry on with that while I'm dealing with the Fedora issue. But I also need to give Jay his five minute warning upstairs. So I go upstairs to give him his five minute warning back to the Fedora Wars. Then Otto is needing assistance with his homework because he needs he needs guidance from an adult because he like at all times. So this is no different from any other time. And I'm also aware of the clock and being late of getting out of the house. So All this juggling, just these curveballs that are thrown up.

Hatty

Yeah, yeah, that's such a true. And because there are certain things that they don't want to do or if they want to do it, that's so rare, I get that feeling of like you you jump on it. It's like, no, we've got to do it and Like, yeah, I I he he hates homework. He'd be I'd be exactly the same.

Mark

I'd be like, okay I think we've covered the subject of leaving the house in its myriad forms. I think so. Now, I occasionally do a thing called Poetry Corner. Where I write a poem about the subject. So if you don't mind, I'm going to do a poem briefly.

Hatty

I love it.

Mark

Right, this is my poem about leaving the house. I imagine the process of leaving the house is straightforward with typical Kids, as you don't require nerb or a great deal of nouse when they'll readily do what you bid. But with my lot, the prospect of tacit compliance is naught but a pipe dream to me. as my plans to get out are all met with defiance when I try to get them to agree. But it's not a reluctance to venture outside that has led to this entrenched position It's the turbulent feelings it stirs up inside, 'cause they don't do too well with transition. See, the thought of uncertainty fills them with dread, so they fight hard to stay in control 'Cause it's safe to say no and keep that in their head, despite all my attempts to cajole. So it's never a case of just pop on your shoes and we'll go to the park for an hour No. I have to be cunning, so they won't refuse and don't exercise their veto power. It takes patience and skill and the pure force of will of a wily and wise politician. So instead of an order they need to fulfil, they're convinced is of their own volition. And I'm endlessly locked in this delicate dance as I try to swerve this regulation. It's not easy, but it gives us the very best chance of avoiding the angst and frustration. But enticing consent is just part of the fun, because we have other hurdles to leap. As I have to prevent them from being distracted while trying to get shoes on their feet. Then there's coats to put on, but being candid, I can't always muster the strength to insist, And there's no chance I'll do it by force, single handed, when they've made up their minds to resist. Now you might think by now we'd be all set to leave, Cause we're standing right next to the door But if that's what you're thinking, you're clearly naive, Cause there's yet one more struggle in store Because while I have paused to put on my own shoes, I've taken my eye off the ball. Their attention span is on a minuscule fuse, and they're now racing off down the hall. So I set off in chase to corral them again And remind them we're leaving right now, As I'm starting to think in my overwhelmed brain That we're better off home anyhow But I push through the doubt and remember the brief and I nullify all opposition. And I swear that our house breathes a sigh of relief when we exit and finish our mission. On the days where I manage to get out the door without meltdowns or insults being hurled, the acute sense of triumph is hard to ignore. Man, I feel like I'm top of the world And although most folk don't have this nonsense to face, They miss out on an unforeseen plus Where's that sense of achievement, or the thrill of the chase, if your kids leave the house with no fuss?

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish

Mark

So this is the it's not all rubbish section where we remind ourselves of uh the positive sides of uh of uh our neuroshambolic lifestyles So one of the things I wanted to do is Neurodiversity Champions. This is any companies or people that are doing excellent work in supporting our Neurodivergent kids. Have you got any neurodiversity champions for us?

Hatty

I've got so many. Can I I'm just going to throw a few in. Recently, he's had his you started doing play therapy at school. And I mean, she's just brilliant. I went and had a cup of tea and a cry with her. She's brilliant, and she yeah, and just sort of like not knowing these people exist sometimes, you know what I mean? I think that sometimes people just don't know what's open to them at the school, of course. becau you know, because of hi you know, his parents splitting up and he's obviously something like that is really discombobulating for him And he actually said to me, Mummy, I think I need a therapist. So I talked to the school and, like, because someone said to me, you know, they often have counsellors and stuff. And I said, Well, you got a play therapist. He loves it He says, Oh, I've got my therapist on Wednesday. Nice. So she's brilliant. But company wise, there's a company called and I think that might just be Kent based called Purple Parenting.

Mark

Okay.

Hatty

which are for they're not predominantly for neurodiverse, they they are just for you know, general from like quite young age. They go into these sort of children's centers and offer these workshops generally for free. But we managed to fit into some bracket and this was before he was diagnosed. when we kind of know of we sort of like one, if you like, this free sort of sessions with them. Oh, cool. And Oh, I mean, they were just brilliant but they were also just brilliant for us, just as a as a mum and dad, you know, sometimes felt like it was counselling sessions Just someone to talk to and not know, 'cause we didn't really know anyone else. You know, this was around the time that I felt like I was going round for play dates And thinking I I'm always the one that has to leave really early because he's kicking off or he can't handle sit or he won't sit at the table with all the other kids. And just feeling a bit like what's going on.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Hatty

And so talking to them, it was just brilliant because I I yeah.

Mark

So Okay, that's a great shout out. I'll definitely put those in the in the show notes and make uh and recommend them to other people.

Hatty

If they're in Kent.

Mark

If they're in Kent, that's fine. But I mean, there will be people or, you know, that all over that listen to this and it may well be helpful. Or or, you know, they may look for similar

Hatty

I'm sure every borough's got those sort of yeah, I mean, you go to your local children's centre and there's loads of things open that are cheap or free. It's all there.

Mark

I think I've already mentioned my Neurodiversity Champion, but I wasn't going to, but then I remembered it. The the NeuroDiversity Champion that I was going to bring was the the Natural History Museum Which was brilliant and it was really good. And it's um yeah, it it's definitely worth doing. Okay, the next section is the tiny epic wins, because this is always uh always a good thing to celebrate those things that in a neurotypical family would seem like an insignificant thing, a little tiny thing, but in our world is usually a huge win. And I like to celebrate those.

Hatty

So little thing recently, and I know um I don't know if you're about to talk about food, but was he's really bad with food, with um uh doesn't like certain food, touching all his different needs that he's got with his food. But he won't try anything new. I mean, forget it. Right, okay. And then and then again, when I've been with friends of mine that have gone, try this, and they've literally put the food in the kid's mouth I'm like, oh my God. Could you imagine if I did that? He would go ballistic. Like I've tried all the things they say about Putting it on a separate plate. So I've literally put one P, Mark, one P on a plate. And go, it's not touched on your plate. No, still won't touch it. But I couldn't believe it. I don't know how it happened. It was like 'cause we were standing in the kitchen. Yeah. It was like 'cause we were standing out. Maybe that's what I've got to do, just like make him try food in random places, not at the table. And we're standing there, we're talking about roast potatoes, and I went, I wish you would try roast potatoes. And he went, Oh, okay. And he just took it. And there's this moment where you feel like if you were in a film, there would be music and birds flying around as he just goes, Oh, okay. And he bit into this roasted potato. And he went, you know, you're waiting for the bird bigger than MasterChef, you know?

Mark

Yes.

Hatty

Yeah, it was all right.

Mark

I was like, Glory days. Can you imagine that? It's like Gordon Ramsey giving you a seal of approval. It is the best seat of approval.

Hatty

I mean, my sister says this like he's like a little celebrity because you feel like if he touches you or if you hold him, it's a million times better than anyone else. That is a fantastic tiny epic win.

Mark

That's exactly what this is about, yes. Oh, yeah, eating a roast potato absolutely embodies it, yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah, there you go. Okay, goods. Um, I d I have to I'm slightly reluctant to do this, but I have to redact a previous tiny epic win on the part of something that I thought was a win. Turns out to have not been as big a win as I expected.

Hatty

Oh no!

Mark

So a tiny pick win that we had a few episodes ago was the Otto had started staying in his own bed at night. And that was a big problem because he'd always go into Tam's bed or to my bed. He's a wriggler as well. He's all over the place. So he's he's really just like you can't sleep if he's in your bed. And One night he just stayed in his own bed. And then the next night, he did it again. It was like, we've absolutely flipping nailed this.

Hatty

Fantastic.

Mark

It was like three nights in a row. It's like, this is it. We've absolutely Like we've completed that level of whatever it is.

Hatty

Yeah.

Mark

I then a week later subsequently found out Just by accident, 'cause I went into his room at like when I was coming to bed at like midnight, I found that he was on his little iPhone. He's got an old an old iPhone. He was watching YouTube. In bed at midnight, right? At midnight. And he just sort of like looked at me completely shamed face and then just burst into tear And then I basically said, Have you been doing this a lot? And he was like, Yeah. And he'd basically been waking up at midnight. and not going back to sleep again.

Hatty

Wow.

Mark

And like, you know, he just watching video game walkthroughs and stuff on YouTube for hours And that's why he wasn't coming into our room because he had this so he was awake, he was still waking up and he knew he didn't want to come into our room, so he just watched YouTube until the morning. So it is so obviously I had to then say, Well, and he was really good. Like, what, the win? What here, actually? It's it turned into a win. He was like, I don't think I should have the phone in my room So he knew that he was like he had to remove that that's quite self-aware of him. Yeah, yeah. He knew that he had to remove that temptation, but now he's back into staying with me or Tam again and wriggling around. So the win has not actually been carried through, unfortunately Okay, the final section of the podcast is the what the flip section. This is moments where your kids will do just throw a curveball with their anything they say or do where you you know, like you just literally don't know how to respond to something. You're just completely like uh I'm d I don't know. Uh that. The what the flip moments. Have you got any what the flip moments with Keith?

Hatty

So nothing really shocks me with him, but this is a curveball I think with emotions sometimes, ag again, even though you might from a distance, people might because because he does a lot of this sort of like in his own little world and he's sort of talking through a narrative But then he'll throw a curveball just being like so in tune with emotions and he really feels stuff and This might sound a bit depressing, but I'm up for sharing it because I think it just shows the kind of like you cannot go around with these kids, right?

Mark

Yeah.

Hatty

Now So me and my husband um separated end uh well, he wanted to said he wanted out at the end of August, right? And can you imagine? It's very difficult to explain to him what's going on. So we've just done it step by step and just done the you know, daddy's not going to live here anymore, right? So then one night he was here and he was in the bath. He went to him. He went, he went, look, the thing is, I just want to know the reason. He goes, I just want to know the reason why. And of course, at that point, and still probably now actually, he can't say to him, I don't love mummy anymore, because who wants to say that to a kid to any kids? And he and he just went, um, I can't really answer that right now. And and Keith went If you don't know why, then why do a thing? That's what I say Is it I say that to my bullies at school Which makes him sound like Oliver Twist. He's not that bad. But of course, I'm in the corner going, Yes, you go, kid. Like, I'd like to know why, mate. He's having having a midlife crisis. But just to make anyone feel better, now we're six months down the line. The other day he said something about um They were asking me, do I wish I'd had a girl? And I said, of course I went, no. And And and Keith went, Well, mummy, now you're getting divorced, uh, you could just meet somebody else and they might have a girl. It's just accepted, like, got it all planned out.

Mark

He's mapping out your life for you.

Hatty

You do all that, you worry about all these things, but they're quite because they're pragmatic. He just thinks, well, just get as long as I'm stabbed, so I'm the stable, you know.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Hatty

As long as. So they obviously start have started to feel more stable now. It's like, well, things have changed, but it's a stable change, if you know what I mean.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, as long as it's predictable, I guess. I think I think, you know, there's definitely an episode on Relationships, because obviously Tam and I are separated as well. So, and that's had its own fun. But that was I remember telling the news to was like, Look, me and mummy are still friends, you know, and we're still your parents and we still love you. Uh, but it just means that we're not going to be kissing and cuddling any more And India went, Yes! Don't be shit! Yeah, yeah. India hates kisses and likes cuddles, hates kisses. So it was like, that was it. That was the, you know, obviously. Obviously we've got, you know, more we're snoozing trauma for further down the line, I'm sure, but at some point, but um, at that moment it was they were they were pretty, um, okay, fine, you know, because we're still around and we know we're still co-parent very you know, very equ equally in their life. Yeah, well, maybe maybe we'll do another episode on that further down the line when I'm able to

Hatty

Fully articulate what's still processing it.

Mark

Yeah, I've got a few what the flip moments, um, yes, obviously, so I was 'Cause Jay's been very angry lately, uh, and it's been quite a problem. So I was kind of talking to him about his anger and how he can manage it, and he and and he stopped arguing with me. And he start he just went quiet. And I'm talking to him and I'm like, this is it. It's finally actually at least listening. He's finally acknowledging it as a problem and not being defensive. He went completely quiet and he paused for a little bit and then he went. I can't believe that no one has thought of a pedal-powered wheelchair. It was like, hang on. You just zoned out, didn't you? You weren't actually reflecting on anything I said. You weren't listening. And also, I mean. People in wheelchairs are very often not able to effectively use their legs for pedals. Yeah! And he went, no, no, no, they use their arms because I'd always prefer to use my arms for that kind of thing. Like, okay, you've thought it through then. It's all nailed. Fine. Oh, that's a good one. And the other one I had this week, I I just literally today had a parents' evening for Jay. And I said, I'm going to go into talk to your teacher today. Um, is there anything you want me to kind of ask him or tell him? Anyway, yeah. what kind of coffee does he drink? And I was like why why?

Hatty

I love this kid.

Mark

Why? And he went, well, he's got a jar of coffee on his desk and I often smell it to calm down. So I raised it with his teacher. He didn't know. So Jay is secretly. sneaking off, like getting a little sniff of his his teacher's coffee and popping it little weird coffee sniffer in the in the classroom. I don't know what that looks like to his other kid to the other kids in his class. And it calms him down. No. Oh, he's off on the coffee again. Yeah. So we we've ordered him some. Some of the coffee, the same brand coffee, so he can calm down in his own room. Okay, so that is the uh that is the end of Neuroshambles. Um, firstly, Hatty, thank you so much for for coming on and sharing your Neuro Shambolic lifesty Do you is there anything? Because you're doing an an Edinburgh show this year, so do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Hatty

Yes, I am doing a show at Edinburgh Fringe. It's called Chatty Ashdown.

Mark

Yes, nice.

Hatty

Something different from what I normally do. So but I won't be doing the whole run, guys. So if you're coming up, you can only catch me from the 15th to the 25th.

Mark

Okay.

Hatty

Nobody can afford the whole fringe anymore.

Mark

That's August, by the way, for non-comedians.

Hatty

Of August, yeah, of August. I will be doing other festivals before Edinburgh. So look out for me in a town near you.

Mark

All right, I'll put a link to your website in the show notes. If you won't.

Hatty

Otherwise, yes, listen to my podcast, Funny Mummies.

Mark

Yes.

Hatty

And I talk to comedian mums. who are comedians, producers, directors, writers, all sorts. Yeah, and I have a lunchtime comedy club called Scream With Laughter where people can bring their babies to comedy clubs. Oh, nice. Where is that? At the moment, I only have two venues. I have one in Balha m at the Bedford.

Mark

Oh, nice.

Hatty

I've got a new one starting at the end of March, the last Wednesday of March, which I think is the 27th. at the Signature Brew in Hagerston. Got Laura Smith, my Cracadieri. So we we have top line ups. We always have very good line ups

Mark

So, yeah.

Hatty

Great. That's keeping me busy and I'm learning to drive.

Mark

Oh, yeah, nice. You've got it all going on.

Hatty

I know.

Mark

I'll give a shout out to the NeuroShambles Socials Facebook, Instagram, Reddit and Threads. If you want to contact us there, or if you want to email us, it's com. I think it's time to thank you, the audience, for listening. I really appreciate you guys listening to the show and sharing it and letting other people know it's yeah. It's a thing of beauty. So, thank you for that. And all that remains for me to say now is have a nice life.