Honesty | Heidi Mavir

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode seven of Neuroshambles. Hope you all had a good Christmas. Um obviously, the definition of what good constitutes is flexible in our world, but um nevertheless Hope you managed to get through all okay. Now we have got a cracking episode coming up for you. I'm very excited to introduce a special guest for this show. We're also going to be looking at Neurodiversity champions, what the flip coming up. Also, we've got some tiny epic wins, and I'm going to be speaking to our very special guest. about the subject of honesty, something that you may or may not have felt yourself challenged by this Christmas when asked particularly difficult questions about the provenance of Santa, maybe. Either way, what I should do is stop prattling and crack on with the show. So here it is.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest.

Mark

So I am very excited to introduce our guest for episode Episode 7 of Neuroshambles. So, this is someone who came to my attention when someone said, This book's come out and it's amazing, and it totally says everything that I want to read. but not in a boring way. And it was and and it was Your Child Is Not Broken by Heidi Mavir. And I am delighted to welcome Heidi onto the show. Heidi, welcome.

Heidi

Hiya, thanks for having me.

Mark

That's you're more than welcome. So this is this is your book. This is the one That I read the auto is not broken. You can see there's a coffee ring on it, so that shows you it's very well used.

Heidi

Nice.

Mark

It's useful not only to kind of help. parents of neurodivergent kids navigate their world without losing their brains. But also if your children are the type of children that throw coasters across the room and you don't have one to

Heidi

And multifunctional.

Mark

It's very absorbent. So it's something for everyone. So not only is Heidi an author, Heidi is also. A public speaker and set up EOTAS matters, which is fantastic. EOTAS, if you're not familiar with the phrase, is Heidi.

Heidi

EOTAS is an abbreviation for education, otherwise, then that's So, it's something that's made possible for children and young people through the EHCP process in England, whereby if it's inappropriate for a child or a young person to be educated in a school or college setting, you can. Can use this piece of legislation to get them a bespoke package of education to learn away from an educational setting, which a lot of our kids need at some point during their careers, particularly if Their autistic or PDA. So that's the work that I do supporting parents and carers to navigate that system.

Mark

Which is wonderful. Because Tammy's actually an EOTAS tutor. So Tam goes into kids' homes and and tutors them in science. Yeah, no, it is fantastic, and they're getting a lot out of it, and the kids are getting a lot out of it. So, um, yeah, hugely. Appreciative of everything that IOTAS kind of represents, really. So before we kind of start on our topic of the week, obviously it's important for us to have Have an understanding of your particular setup.

Heidi

Oh my god.

Mark

How long have you got?

Heidi

Okay, so we're all the isms, all the icks in our house. Okay, so my son Theo is now 19. But he crashed out of school when he was fifteen and we then were on that like roller coaster of working out what that was all about. So since then, he has been diagnosed Autistic and ADHD. He has a tick disorder.

Mark

Right, since that.

Heidi

Since then. We didn't know. Okay. We thought he was one of the normals. We thought I was too. Oh, the hilarity, how we laugh

Mark

I know, I've given up second guessing anything anymore.

Heidi

So, yeah, so since then, he's been diagnosed autistic ADHD. I have two. He also has a tick disorder. He has Hypermobility, probably Ella's Danlos syndrome. Um, he has dyspraxia, dyslexia, all the ears. Um, he's a little bundle of fiery, spiky brain. And the reason we didn't plock it before was because I am too. So, yeah.

Mark

That's where we're at. Wow. Okay. Your neuroshambolic household must be an abs. Absolute joy to navigate.

Heidi

It's a fucking shambles, Mark. That's a shambles.

Mark

I mean, it's nice that we know why.

Heidi

Like. It's all my house in chaos and an absolute shambles, but now I get to blame it on something other than just being a useless human

Mark

It's not just blame though, isn't it? I g I guess that you also sort of learn strategies because like, oh, that's what my brain's doing or or that's how they're perceiving this situation, so let's change the way that this situation is Is handled. Yeah. As opposed to well, I mean, from my person point of view, you know, I am undiagnosed, neurotypical. So I'm sort of I bang myself up against this All the time goes, oh, I'm wrong in this household because everyone else, to be honest, is seeing things in a different point of view. So I've got to navigate things differently. So you're the odd one out. I am. There is a Chinese saying 99 monkeys without noses laugh at the monkey with a nose. And that's basically how it feels in my house.

Heidi

That you're a monkey with a nose.

Mark

I'm the monkey with a nose being laughed at by all the noseless monkeys.

Heidi

Yeah. And who's to say that monkeys need noses anyway?

Mark

Exactly. Exactly. Smelling is overrated. That is a different episode.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, the topic of this week is the subject of Honesty, because I think one of the very best things about my autistic kids, and I guess with a lot of autistic kids in general, is that they can be steadfastly and unflinchingly honest which is not always welcome. But I I think it's a it's a laudable trait in these these times where it seems that truth and honesty it is bewilderingly kind of uh expendable. So i well, I I like the fact that that my kids can be honest, but that also uh i is slightly more defying in social situations, I bet Is that something that you kind of had with Theo?

Heidi

He's so slightly mortifying, utterly horrifying, deeply embarrassing Yes. And just like proper world open me up and swallow me whole situations. Yes. More so when he was younger, I think. I think he's a little bit older now and he and I had a conversation about it this morning actually and he and wi about honesty. And I realise that he has a much more nuanced relationship with honesty than he used to. But when he was young, oh my god, like completely unfiltered, brutal honesty in almost every situation and interaction with any other human being. Including me. Yes. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, especially the parents, I think. Maybe that is just because we feel a bit safer. I mean, we'll get onto some of the things that. Jade has leveled at me in terms of honesty. But so I'm quite interested to hear that Theo's got a more nuanced take on it now. Because Theo's 19, right?

Heidi

He's 19, yeah.

Mark

So I'm sort of looking to that and going, oh, maybe, maybe my children's relationship with honesty will evolve over time because at the moment it is You know, they are unflinchingly honest. Um, and partly it's there's an aversion to lying there, yeah, I think. Um, they don't like uh other people lying because I guess, you know, it's it's confusing. Say what you mean, right?

Heidi

A hundred percent. And I think there's that also that massive sense of justice that we have in in neurodivergent people in general, but particularly kids And young people, whereby there's a need for truth and honesty, because maybe the nuance of social interactions are a little bit more com Complicated for us, and so we rely on people being honest to be able to work out what's going on. And so, I think that being lied to or things not being truthful is a danger to us because it puts us in a position of disadvantage because we can't or are unable to or don't have the skills to or just don't operate on the level of having to unpick other people's bullshit all the time.

Mark

That's a very very good way of putting it.

Heidi

You know, so yeah, I think there's a huge like attachment to honesty in neurodivergent kids especially.

Mark

Yes, a reliance on it, I guess.

Heidi

Yeah, and I don't think it's wrong either. I think, like, I don't disagree.

Mark

No, not at all. And there's so many sort of unwritten social rules, though, that rely on a kind of. Of a flexibility around truth, I guess, and honesty. So last year we went to see My Neighbor Totoro, the stage show in London last year. It was fantastic. He's really into Studio Ghibli and that kind of thing. It's one of his special interests. So we got to. It's at the Barbican, and I wanted to get to the Barbican early. I don't know if you know the Barbican, but it is just like a. I mean, for a kid with ADHD, it's like a wonderland. It's on loads of different levels.

Heidi

Rabbit warren, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, exactly. So I was like, do you know what? Let's get there early. It was a relaxed performance So, I'm not going to be judged by other people because I'm sure there will be other similar kids there. So, I wanted to get there early and he could, you know, and then we're not going to be late, and he's just going to enjoy the barbican before the show and also expend some of the energy That he's got. And we get to the barbican, and I come out, and I'm greeted by someone who wants to get me to sign up to his char

Heidi

Right.

Mark

So he's got his clipboard and it's something to do with water. I'm not like, I'm sure it's really important. In the scheme of the world, it is definitely worthy, and you're doing a fantastic job. But right now, I've got some one-on-one time with my kids. Out of the house doing something he wants to do. This is golden time for me. It is not a time for me to stop and talk to you about your charity. I'm sorry. So I tried to get rid of him by just going, sorry, it's not a good time. It's his first time in London, and we're going to explore. And he just stopped and went, Hang on, daddy, this is not my first time in London. I've been in London loads of times. I was like, What? And and the guy sort of he looked at him and went, Oh, so he's telling fibs, is he?

Heidi

And then you look like an absolute maniac. Why would you lie about your child never having been to London before?

Mark

No, exactly. And now it looks like I've abducted him or something.

Heidi

We live in London, Daddy.

Mark

Exactly. So, I mean, I'm not going to say, like, sorry, mate, but my kid is autistic with a heavy dose of air. Your charity might be the most worthy cause in the world at the moment, but if I start talking to you in any detail, he's going to be flapping and spinning and fidgeting in the entrance of this busy tube station. And none of us need that. Can I just go about my busin That is probably what I should have said.

Heidi

Well, you also, that thing about like the honest answer would have been, I'm sorry, mate, I just don't want to talk to you But you're not allowed to do that, are you?

Mark

But I am crippled with neurotypicality. Like, I have to, yeah, I can't hurt his feelings. I I I mean, not that it would, 'cause he must get all kinds of stuff. Of course.

Heidi

Of course. Like that that requirement to be, um, you know, to stay in social safety with other people and to not put yourself in a position where you potentially could be Considered rude or ostracised, or you know, at the very worst. Like, in terms of a pack animal mentality, if you don't fit in, you get ejected, right? So, it's a threat to life. So, you have to learn to assimilate, otherwise. you're gonna you know, no one wants to be alone and that's potentially the risk. So, yeah, it makes total sense. But it's so funny that the the Him saying, I've been to London many times. I've done with a charity on the street thing before and at the front door, I've done the whole, oh no, I actually already give. And he's corrected me before. No, you don't.

Mark

She's not charitable.

Heidi

We're far too broke to give to charity, mum. That's the oddest end sense You don't prioritise other people's suffering, what are you talking about?

Mark

You're dealing with your own suffering, mummy.

Heidi

We don't care about other people. We have no empathy. What are you talking about?

Mark

Yeah. It is like I get he doesn't understand the nuance of why I'm saying what I'm saying at the time and um maybe that's a lesson for me to just be a bit more honest up front and you know I think there's like I've learned a lot about my relationship with

Heidi

Honesty through parenting Theo. Like I write about it in the book. I, as a child, I was like an award-winning liar. Like it was part of my masking, it was part of my hiding my neurotype was that I just assimilated so much that I just was ne hardly ever truthful about anything. So I guess it goes the other way, doesn't it? Like as an unrecognised, undiagnosed autistic child, the only way to get by was to lie my socks off. I'm I've never thought about that

Mark

That's a really interesting take on the fact that neurodivergent kids don't are averse to lying, but mask or less.

Heidi

But then the difference is I don't think that we well, we je definitely don't know where mask is You know, it's a survival technique and it's not intentional and it's not dishonest. It's a coping strategy and it's a survival technique.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

Which I think probably is why. Because we have to do that, we just require a level of honesty from other people in order to just get by, especially people who we trust. And I think that's why our children especially find it particularly difficult when they see us not being honest. Either with them or with other people, because it shakes their foundations. You know, it kind of like challenges what they think about the world. And, and, you know, and I guess, you know, one of the things that people say about autistic people all the time is that kind of like that black and white thinking And, you know, either something is true or it's not true. And so, I think for a lot of our kids, as they're learning that that is not necessarily the case, and that does evolve, I think, as they get older. But part of it's either true or it isn't true requires to know whether someone is being truthful or not being truthful. Otherwise, you're stuffed, right?

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Heidi

Yeah. I think that it makes total sense It makes total sense.

Mark

And I can't, yeah, now made me made me feel horrible for shaking Jay's foundations.

Heidi

You know, it's all part of the learning to manage in a world not built for us, right? So there is a requirement if we're going to manage in as a minority to understand what the mina majority rules are.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And one of the majority rules is sometimes you lie.

Mark

Yes, but there are different reasons for doing so. Yes. And that's where the nuance is, right? I mean, that's where you sort of so for example, you sometimes little white lies are actually kind of part of the The sort of oil that helps social communication sometimes is that you need to sometimes lie in order to spare people's feelings. And that is not something that my kids are on board with at all. If you've ever listened to this podcast, you will realise that Jay is particularly forthright in not sparing my feelings.

Heidi

It is a daft rule, though, isn't it? Is a daft rule that in order to fit in, we have to be dishonest.

Mark

Yeah, this is something I spoke to another guest of ours, uh, Li Liam Malone, um, when we I was having a conversation with him about it And he was he was saying that he hates the word respect, as in show me respect, because it doesn't mean anything. Be respectful means nothing to him It was like, what is that? That's a vague word. And if you're actually being truthful about what that is, what you're saying is, you don't want me to tell the truth because you want me to spare your feelings. And that's what it is. I was like, I've never thought about it like that. So Liam is neurodivergent as well. So it was really interesting to kind of have that conversation about these woolly terms, I guess.

Heidi

I have a similar relationship with the word inappropriate.

Mark

Okay. Yes.

Heidi

I hate it when people say that's inappropriate. Yes, absolutely. According to whom? Yeah. What would appropriate be? Who says?

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

Like your rules for what is appropriate just make no sense to me.

Mark

I went to look at secondary schools for Jay, and one school I went into, he was trying to sort of explain how inclusive they were as a sch School. And he went, because you know, some kids here find it easy to behave well, and some find it more difficult to behave well. I'm like. There's no fucking way I'm bringing my child to this school.

Heidi

Get your coat and go.

Mark

We're going to difficult to behave well. What do you mean by well? Behave what? Who's setting the boundaries of what well is? Yeah.

Heidi

Cut to you and Jay running from the building.

Mark

Literally, exactly. The the the whole thing about sparing people's feelings And little white lies is so alien to people who don't really have empathy, I guess, is part of part of that as well of not really understanding how their words can affect other people.

Heidi

So therefore, why should they not be honest? I think the thing as well, I was talking to Theo about empathy this morning, because I think actually the notion that autistic people don't have empath

Mark

Is a massive, massive, yeah, absolutely.

Heidi

Yeah, it's not true. But actually, I think it's a scale. So, Theo was saying this morning, in terms of the definition of empathy. I do not know how someone else is feeling. And I think it's actually dishonest to say that anyone would ever know how someone else is feeling. How could you? So the notion of empathy in and of itself is flawed, because how would you ever know how someone else is feeling? And I was like, ooh.

Mark

It is interesting. The the concept of emotional intelligence kind of comes Into it, isn't it? I guess, and that you're sort of picking up on what other people are putting out in terms of non-verbal communication. So, you're talking to someone, and you can see they're tensing up. And if you are, you know, if you are kind of open to that sort of Those non-verbal signs, then you can go, ah, what I'm saying right now is not going down. Well, I might just back up on Criticising their shoes or something.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

And so, whereas it was, you know, my kids don't have that. So, Jay, for example, once I made the mistake of asking him how I looked. You look okay, it's just your trousers and your face I don't like.

Heidi

Theo once said to me, I said, Does this dress make my boobs look big? And he said, No, your massive boobs make your boobs look big. The dress is fine. Fair enough. Like it's not a magic dress, mum.

Mark

I I mean, I've learned to just not ask the questions now.

Heidi

Yeah, don't ask if you don't want the answer.

Mark

Exactly right. You know, there are other ones where, like, and this sort of ties in with small talk as well. Um, because I've got a theory that The the like my kids are not very good at small talk. They don't get it. Um and I think that's not a an unfamiliar kind of trait of a lot of autistic. It's a waste of time. And again, it's all part of that sort of unwritten social lubrication. Social niceties, yes.

Heidi

Yes, exactly.

Mark

And, but if you think about it. It small talk is fundamentally dishonest. In that you would say, I would say, oh, how's your day to someone? I don't actually want to know how their day was. You know, I'm just it's just me just going, Hey, as a human, I'm reaching out to you to pretend that I care. And then you will go, fine, thanks. How is yours? And I'll say fine. And then it's like, okay, now we've got that bit over with. Let's get down to business.

Heidi

And I find myself. Let's talk about the weather on the way there, obviously

Mark

Exactly. We can both see what the weather's doing. We don't need to discuss it.

Heidi

Or how close it is to Christmas. There's so many. Yeah.

Mark

But it is. It serves a function for neurotypicals, a sense of connection, I guess. I don't know. I can't explain it.

Heidi

It's a social oil, isn't it? And I think one of the things with small talk is that it gives you time to read another person's novel Verbal skill communication. So, small talk gives you a period of safety where you can work out if a person is going to be your kind of person or not. Based on all those non-verbal cues and all that other stuff, that energy and all of that, that it basically is just thinking time for is this person a twat or not?

Mark

We just ask that question at the outset.

Heidi

Yeah. Whereas autistic people are just like, um, are you going to be interested in me talking about, you know, whatever it might be that is my passion or my hobby? If you're not, then I'm not interested in talking to you. You. So let's just, or do we have some shared ground we can find? Like my friend Christy Forbes always says, you know, autistic people make connection by talking about their shared trauma.

Mark

It's like, cut the bullshit.

Heidi

Let's just talk about how terrible our lives are, and then that'll be our common ground.

Mark

Yes. Instead of something so broad as you know, the weather or the time of year.

Heidi

If we've both come to the same place on holiday or whatever it might be And I think the small talk thing is, like you were saying, it it is fundamentally dishonest because it doesn't tell you anything about the other person in real terms. It gives you time, if you have the skills, to read nonverbal communication. But if you don't have the skills in reading non-verbal communication, why would you waste your time? Just guess what? Yeah, absolutely.

Mark

And I find myself sometimes doing it with. my kids and regretting it immediately. And and I sh I and I I kick myself for doing it every time. But like when when I pick them up from school, they go, How is how was school? That's the d Because Otto will tell me in in extreme detail um about a game of football that he played at lunchtime. And what goals he scored, and what goals other people scored. And it's like, I don't actually want to know. Sorry, I shouldn't have opened this kind of worms. I'm just trying to get you in the car to get home

Heidi

Because I've got to get back to work, yeah.

Mark

Um, and uh, similarly with Jay, he will tell me in in again in extreme detail, uh, but about all the shit he's had to endure that Day and again, I'm really glad that he's open to talking to me about that, but it's not the time or the place. So I need to. I mean, Tam and I have had a conversation about just That's a question that we're not going to ask now. We don't ask how was school because at the time that we ask it is not appropriate Speaking of what's inappropriate and what's appropriate, but it isn't for our situation. What's much better is to take some time when they're a bit more regulated and it's just me and me and them and then go You know, then I can say to Otto, Tell me about the goal you scored today. And it's a much more kind of directed conversation and it's much more meaningful to him.

Heidi

or similarly because you can give him back what he needs while he's sharing that stuff rather than the alternative, which is that you just learn to zone out and make listening noises.

Mark

Yes. Which I think lots of us do with our kind of regardless of their neurotype.

Heidi

It probably is a survival mechanism from your brain exploding from hearing the same story for the millionth time. He was saying to me this morning, we were talking about it in the car And he said, he used this lovely term, which I mentioned to you, which was lies of convenience, where he said to me, Sometimes someone will say to me, Have you watched this film? And I'll just say yes, because I just think, well, no, I haven't. I'm not going to, and I don't really want to hear about it. So if I say yes Then they can just get it out of their system and tell me what they want to tell me about it. They'll probably tell me what their favourite part is. I just agree that it's my favourite part too, and then we can move on

Mark

Yes, yes, I like that.

Heidi

A lot of convenience. Yeah, I'm like, that works. Why would you want to be stuck in a conversation? About a film you have no intention of watching and you have no interested in. You know, I mean, I get that some people would be like, well, he might learn something from this other film. Film, he's very particular in the kind of films he watches, and he'll know exactly whether he'll want to watch it or not. And you can guarantee that whatever film you recommend to him, he will know whether it's his kind of film or not. He's very filmy, very T V-ish.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

So when someone says, Have you seen a film he has no interest in? Seeing, he'll just say, Yeah, because it's a shortcut. Because then he knows that he can get on to talking about something he does want to talk about. And that and he said to me this morning, The thing is, mum, they feel good because they feel like we've made a connection and I've won some points in passing as a normal. And then we can have a conversation about something I really want to speak about, and then they can really get to know me. So everyone wins. And I'm like makes sense, mate.

Mark

He's got the answers.

Heidi

Lives of convenience.

Mark

So I mean, that was one of the things I was quite interested in. As well, that you know, for neurodivergent kids who don't like lying, it makes them feel uncomfortable. I know that mine do, generally They do try and lie. I mean, mine certainly do. It sounds like Theo's got it nailed. I mean, he hasn't.

Heidi

I can tell.

Mark

Oh, really? Does he try it on?

Heidi

He thinks I can't tell, but I can tell.

Mark

He's got some massive tells. What are his tells?

Heidi

One of his tells when he's lying is that he makes eye contact.

Mark

That happens with Otto as well.

Heidi

Yeah, and you're like, oh. Eye contact, we don't do that in this house. What's going on?

Mark

Yeah, that's definitely an Otto thing as well. Like when he looks at me, it's because he's really like wide-eyed as well, because it's not really intense and really like his eyebrows.

Heidi

But also he I mean, he doesn't I said to him this morning, You don't really lie, do you? And he was like, Yeah, I do. I was like, Oh, okay. I was kind of a bit touched that he was able to do that. I was a bit like, oh, go you. Look at you operating in a dishonest world. I'm so proud, you little fibber.

Mark

Maybe that was a lie.

Heidi

I mean. But he um he I can tell when he's not being honest.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

But it rarely happens to be honest because he is generally very honest. He like I think he has got and I think this is something that as younger as a younger child he didn't have this nuance and and now he's an adult and he's learned a lot more about you know his own neurotype which is really helpful and other people's communica. Styles and all of that stuff. He does know about lies of convenience and he's worked out a way to make that work for himself. But when he was younger, Like, it was so obvious. And he would lie about things that were so obviously massive fibs. Like, I he told me this morning, Oh, do you remember when the router stopped working? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, and I said, I didn't know what it was. And I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, I spilled a cup of soup on it. And I was like, you did not. He was like, yeah. I think that was my first lie.

Mark

Really? I mean, he can trace back his life.

Heidi

Wow. His first intentional. I'm going to be dishonest about this because I've learned that sometimes That's the way to do it.

Mark

But was it a lie? As in, you said, Do you know what's happened to the router? Or was it, did you spill this cup of soup on a router?

Heidi

There wasn't evidence of cup of soup spillage. So he'd he'd amazingly.

Mark

Because there's only you two in the house, so it's yeah.

Heidi

He'd amazingly had some kind of uh uh revelation whereby he learned for that thirty seconds how to clean up after himself, only for that thirty seconds. But yeah, I he was I was like, What's wrong with the root? He's like, I don't know, mum, it's just stopped working

Mark

And he didn't make eye contact, you were like, okay, this passes.

Heidi

Yeah, like it was convincing. And I didn't know until This morning. That's what happened.

Mark

Yeah. So I think there's I I think that there are yes, I don't think it's fair to say that that neurodivergents don't lie. Like Jade, for example, will lie if it directly benefits himself. But it's usually very easy to disprove. Normally, he'll go. Oh, yeah, mummy said I could have some more screen time

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

Okay, well, mummy's in the next room, so shall I just ask them?

Heidi

Okay, or he'll say to me, You promised, and I'll be like, I don't think I did. Yeah, no, you did. You promised. I'd be like, no, no, I'm sure I didn't. Yeah, you did. You definitely promised. And I now have to be like, because he'll sometimes catch me. He'll be like, do you promise? I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I promise. Like, fuck, I've promised now.

Mark

Yeah, I know.

Heidi

So I have to really catch myself and not promise things because then I'm able to say to him, I did not promise.

Mark

Like, that's not true. I mean, Otto is well, both of them actually crumble quite easily when they're confronted with a lie. When they're caught in a lie, yeah, when they're caught in a lie, it's just like, yeah, yeah. I mean, Jay sometimes tells me just because he wants to show that he'd managed to lie and he was being clever. Otto takes literally just the raise of an eyebrow and he'll crumble So he'll try something and I'll say, Were you watching YouTube in your room? And I said you couldn't. And he'll go, No, Daddy. And then I'll raise an eyebrow. And he went, Okay, yeah, yeah. I was. I was. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Heidi

I didn't mean to.

Mark

Exactly. He'd be like the worst under interrogation. He would crumble so easily if he was in a police interrogation. He'd be giving names and dates and Fucking shoe sizes, anything. He's singing like a canary.

Heidi

Yeah. I think as well. unknowingly, or maybe knowingly, I don't know, whatever it was. Um when he was younger, I hammered home to him the importance of honest Honesty.

Mark

Okay.

Heidi

You will get in more trouble for lying and being caught than for just being honest.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

And so for me, him being. As honest as the day is long, was not a massive surprise to me because I trained him into it. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

I mean, yeah. And boy all means take the credit

Heidi

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. It's my expert parenting. He's not actually autistic, it's just that I'm a really excellent mum.

Mark

You just focus on that one thing and absolutely family. Fucking smashed it. Yeah, totally.

Heidi

Boxed off.

Mark

I mean, I think that's, you know, I think that's kind of true of all parents saying to their kids. Not to lie, but it is one thing that seems to stick with the autistic community. I mean, India suspected neurotypical That is slightly wavering day by day at the moment. But but India definitely presents the most neurotypically, I think I can definitely say that in our household. And she will she's quite a good a liar. She she won't crumble under under interrogation at all. She'll double down, which is worrying

Heidi

I'll be honest.

Mark

I prefer it the other way.

Heidi

I mean, she's probably got a bright future ahead of her in either acting or politics.

Mark

'Cause there's one thing being honest, and um i i there's another thing knowing when to not be honest. I think when to actually not say anything, and Otto doesn't have that off switch, so I've been in situations where he's just because he talks, he just talks so

Heidi

Is he ADHD as well?

Mark

He's autistic ADHD. Yeah, they are both autistic ADHD. And ADHD presents more acutely in certain situations. Yeah. And he is getting into tenn right. And it's like, brilliant, you've got an interest. Let's go. Let's do something outdoors with other people. Uh, and so I take him to tennis once a week and he plays with a a mixture of of different kids, all you know, like they're eight, so they're, you know, they Just hitting the ball backwards and forwards, and some are better at it than others. But Otto narrates it all the time. And when he gets paired with this specific kid, he is brutal. Because he doesn't keep it in, right? So he's he's playing and then he's going, Oh, that was a terrible shot That was miles out. He's like he's saying it to this kid. He's just, you know, like s spammed it into the into the net or something like that. He's down the other end of the cock going, What a load of shit. Yeah, yeah, basically, but also really loudly. So not only can this other kid hear it, but his dad can hear it, and I'm stood next to his dad. Yeah, and it is like and after about ten minutes of Otto berating this other kid for not being very good and to be fair, he does it to himself as well. He does it when he does a bad Bad shot, but he has no filter, so he just lets it out. And after about 10 minutes of this, the dad turned to me and he went, He's very expressive, isn't he?

Heidi

Expensive.

Mark

Yeah. And I didn't really know what to go. So, yeah, I'm sorry. And I think at that point, I was like, Yeah, he's autistic, so he doesn't really have a filter. You're welcome.

Heidi

Also, you hit shit at tennis.

Mark

He needs to know, though, let's face it, this kid has not got a career in this. Come on.

Heidi

Have you considered football?

Mark

So another thing I wanted to look at is the um is the positive side of not lying. Because that's definitely, you know, it is an admirable quality in, you know, neurodivergent kids. I can genuinely rely on my kids to tell me the truth in a situation So, if Jay and Otto are playing in a room and Otto starts crying, this happens a lot, basically, because he's very susceptible to pain and Jay is very impervious to Boundaries, I guess. That was me and my brother.

Heidi

My brother's like, used to beat seven shades of shit out of him.

Mark

No, but he doesn't. See, yeah, he doesn't, he's not actually trying to properly damage him. He's just a bit rougher than he needs to be, I think. But there are times where I'll go in and I will say, Okay, Jay, tell me what happened. And I know that what's going to come out of his mouth is actually what happened. He's not going to lie to me. So I'll say, what happened, Jay? Anyway, go, Otto was annoying me. I told him not to. He carried on. So I kicked him in the stomach. It's like, okay, fair play. Okay, so do you know what I mean? You're not just saying nothing. You're telling me what happened. I know that this is the truth. And at least I know how to navigate this situation now But he also does genuinely seem surprised that I'm then taking Otto's side in this situation, which is frustrating. I think he half expects me to go, oh, that's fair play then. Why not? Carry on. But at least I know that.

Heidi

One of the things that one of the benefits of having a young person who is not in the lying game, unless it's, you know, a liar convenience to save everyone's feelings Things is that, you know, and we've had a hell of a battle getting what he needs in terms of accommodations and school and what have you. Wrote a book, don't know if you know about it. But one of the things that's been a real, like, something I can kind of like pin stuff on is I know he doesn't lie about stuff. So when they say things that you know, he'll come home and when he was really struggling School, he'd come home and he'd say, you know, the teacher was, they shouted at me and they made me look stupid in front of everyone in the class. And then I'd go back, you know, and school would say there was an incident and this happened and that happened. And I'd be like, well, look. Theo is a lot of things, but he rarely, if ever, lies. And he's told me this is what happened. And but the challenge in that, like, I was able to, you know, when he was telling me what he was experiencing.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

There was something about I know that that was his truth. Now, maybe other people might not have read it the same way. Maybe that teacher didn't think they were shouting in his face and making him look and feel stupid. Because we do know that different people's perceptions of these things, especially neurotypical kids, can be very different. So Theo has. for sure picks up on people's frustrations and it feels to him like he's being shouted at or people are raising their voices when perhaps they're not but he's Picking up on their frustration. He is actually reading non-verbal cues, but he interprets that as being shouted at. But I was able to, knowing that that was his genuine experience, I was able to say to people. Look, you may not see that this way, but how he experiences it is X, Y, and Z. And that's what you're going to have to make accommodations for.

Mark

Yes, and he's being honest about how he experiences it. Yeah.

Heidi

So there is that kind of like, I mean, sometimes there have been situations where. He's been truthful, and someone else has been absolutely dishonest. And I've been able to go, He doesn't lie, therefore, you're lying. But then there is also something about because I know that he Is honest with me about what is going on for him, I can, in firm confidence, say to people, this is his experience. And I know that I'm advocating for him honestly and truthfull And that's valuable. You know, there's a really plus point with that. And one of the things I think that's the biggest challenge is for parents of kids who maybe are Are unwell or in burnout or experiencing high levels of masking or whatever, is that sometimes you're the only person that that child is honest with about their experiences, and that is really difficult. When you're getting from everyone else, but they seem fine, or they've never shown me that, or whatever it might be. But I think there is an absolute bonus of the positives of not lying is that is that you can trust that what your kid is telling you is happening is their experience, is honest, it's their account. And also, like, he's freaking hilarious, he says. Never ceases to have me in absolute stitches just with his beautiful honesty about Things. Yes.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, I've actually wheeled my children out before, to be honest with people who need it. Like my mate was like, I'm not sure about my I think he was having a bit of a crisis of confidence about his hair because he got grey in his hair. And he's like, I don't know if my hair's kind of grey now. My kids say that it's sort of light brown, but I think it's grey. I was like. Let me bring out the big guns to establish this.

Heidi

Here's my human lie detector.

Mark

I wheeled out Otto and Jay. They went, yeah, it's grey with bits of brown. It's like, right. Case closed What next? Thanks, guys. I should rent them out, actually.

Heidi

That'd be really like more more more Like they could be like bullshit monitors, couldn't they? They're like like more effective than a polygraph.

Mark

I think fashion fashion consultants. Basically.

Heidi

And that's the funny thing is yeah, that's the funny thing. thing is that although our kids are accused of not having social skills, they are really good bullshit monitors. Yeah, they can see it from a hundred miles away. You know, and they know when people are trying to trick them. Them, you know, they might not be able to articulate it always, or they might not even be able to put their finger on it. But generally speaking, if my kid goes, that person gives me the ick, it's usually a good indication that that person's a bit icky.

Mark

There's a difference between honesty and brutal honesty. And that very often I'm on the receiving end of Brutal honesty. Um so and Jay in particular is incredible at this. So I get some things like um Jay Once it's went, uh, your breath smells daddy. No wonder you wear so much aftershave. Fucking hell. Dude.

Heidi

He said to me before, Are you going to have a bath? You smell of vomit.

Mark

Yeah, I'll get right on that. Thanks, mate. The answer to that question is, yes, I'm gonna have a bath, but you could have maybe done something a bit more tactful. So in terms of brutal honesty, I can definitely rely on Jay to be Brutally honest, and one of my quite a significant moment in my life was when I was driving along, and all the kids were in the car, and there was me, and Tam, and Otto, and India, and Jay in the car, and he's looking out the window And he was thinking about something for a while. And then he turned to me and went, Daddy, you used to be a stand-up comedian, but now you're just a boring data guy. And I was like I nearly had to pull over. It was like exactly. Like he you know, I think everyone has this little kernel of something, some self awareness in their soul. That they're aware of, and they kind of cover up, and they hope that no one notices. And he'd looked into my very soul, and he pulled it out, and he held it out in front of me and the whole family. And everyone laughed. And it was just it was brutal. And I I think if you try and find the origin story of this podcast You can probably trace it back to that very moment in the car where I'm like, I'm not just a boring data guy now. I am the number one hundred and twenty-fourth ranked podcast in Hungary for parenting. So there. Yeah, so it's brutal. It's brutal.

Heidi

The you reminded me of something When you were saying about oh, he said, he said something to me pretty heartbreaking, actually. And he was being honest. And he said to me, when he was getting ready to turn 18. say getting ready to. It was happening whether he needed it wanted it to or not. He wasn't really that keen on it. And he was like quite anxious about it. And I was like, What's going on? Why are you so anxious about it? Most people are excited to be an adult. And he was like, Thing is, Mum. When you're an autistic kid, you're really cute and people think you're kind of adorable. When you're an autistic adult, people think you're weird and like to avoid you. I mean, you're not wrong, but my God. And like, that was a moment when I was like, oh, God, that kind of stings a bit.

Mark

Yes, that's your brutal honesty

Heidi

Reality check. Yeah.

Mark

But he wasn't doing it to to hurt you, right?

Heidi

Because it wasn't. It wasn't about you.

Mark

It was about, you know, his reflections. But again, he Not really understanding of how that's perceived by you at that time because you are the oldest.

Heidi

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In brackets, you're really weird, by the way. Close brackets But also it was just, you know, he I don't think that he I don't think he's wrong, to be honest. Like there is something about that. We infantilise Autistic people. And we have lots of conversations about autistic kids, and we have very few conversations about autistic adults.

Mark

Yes. Yes.

Heidi

Because we're less palatable. People don't really know what to do with us.

Mark

Well, I think I'm ho I hope that that that changes over time as people become kind of more aware of of autism and how it presents. And more accepting of neurodivergence. Because I think it's definitely a conversation that's happening more and more. And hopefully, you know, all of the amasing stuff that you're doing will help to kind of educate people a little bit.

Heidi

Yeah, and I think we've got a generation now. Our our kids are probably I mean, arguably, the first generation of children and young people People who are being diagnosed in childhood more broadly, or identified in childhood more broadly. So we've got kids who are hitting adulthood who know what it means to be neurodivergent before they're in their 40s. And there's definite value in that.

Mark

And they can advocate for themselves as well. They can say, actually, this is what I need. And also, they can regulate themsel Because they're aware of it and they have those accommodations, hopefully, at school.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

Yeah, and I'm because that is on my mind in terms of thinking about how. it's yeah, how how that plays out, how my kids will grow up to be neurodivergent adults and what they'll be capable of and what they won't be, you know, won't won't find so easy Navigate. But I think it's a good thing to surround yourselves with people who are going to be honest. know if we can understand that where that honesty comes from sometimes it's not out of a place of malice but out of a place of neurodivergency I think that That's a really positive thing. And I was just thinking that I think it would be wonderful if all politicians were autistic Imagine a world where you could only be a politician if you were diagnosed autistic.

Heidi

So you're basically going to be honest. Oh, we'd much rather get so much stuff done as well, right?

Mark

I mean, like decisions would be made. Things would happen. I'd much rather hear from a a politician who says like, I'll be honest, we're exaggerating the economic impact of immigrants. because it wins votes. I'll be honest. It looks much better to blame other people than own up to our own reckless spending and financial mismanagement Vote Tory.

Heidi

Yeah. Let's be honest. We're throwing trans people under the bus in the hope that you don't notice that we're shafting everybody who is not earning one hundred grand a year.

Mark

Yes. Like, well, I don't necessarily agree with your politics, but I admire your honesty. Yeah.

Heidi

When I watch like PMQs and stuff, I like it's actually hilarious how so few questions get answered.

Mark

That's where you need that bullshit monitor. You are an autistic moderator going, no, no, you're lying.

Heidi

You didn't answer the question. I discovered that in meetings With professionals, they don't really like it if you just keep repeating, answer the question, answer the question, answer the question. I got told off in a meeting for just saying to a head teacher over and over again, answer the question. You haven't answered the question. Answer the question. I was accused by the chair of berating him. I just wanted to answer the question. It's really simple. Answer the question. But I also find there's power for me as an Autistic Adult advocating for neurodivergent families There is um like we don't have very many advantages, I think, but so I will play the card when I need to.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Heidi

Um, and if I go into meetings and say, just to make you aware, I am autistic I do get dysregulated quite easily. I might appear to be angry. Don't look at how I'm saying it. Listen to what I'm saying.

Mark

Let's get on with it.

Heidi

And it gives me permission to just be as unmasked as I need to be. Yeah, come on, bring it on. I'm not going to pretend to be polite. We're here to get work done. I love that.

Mark

That is great. I was once in a meeting with Tam, and this is something that I'm going to cover. In another episode, actually, with the LA. And TAM is neurodivergent as well And they started the meeting basically going, okay, just to be clear, we're not going to put him into mainstream. And it was like, oh, wow, you just dropped that straight, straight on the table. Like, here is our starting point. I was like, oh. I would never have been able to do that. I'd sort of had to sort of tiptoe up to it and maybe suggest it. And Tam was just like, This is where we are. Deal with it.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

And I loved that.

Heidi

Yeah, like it just it saves everyone a lot of time and energy and effort to just be like I'm astounded by the number of meetings that you have when at the beginning of the meeting you say, So what are we hoping to achieve from this meeting? And everyone just looks at each other. You're like, okay, well, let me tell you what I've come for.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Heidi

Because I know. So if you don't know, I'm just going to get what I want for this kid. You're failing. There was one thing that I wanted to share with you, which I thought was so funny. And like, decide if you think it's appropriate. So, Theo, for a long time, didn't really have a peer group. And he had a period of time when he Wasn't in school, and he was lonely. And I remember him saying to me, I just want one friend, mum. I'm not greedy. One friend will do. And it broke my heart. I know. Anyway, he's now at college and he has got this little collection of friends and they're like all neurodivergent as heck and like they're freaking brilliant and they have the best time and they really look after each other and they all know they're neurodivergent. But he was saying to me, One of his friends has been struggling with something. And he said to me, Like, for example, a lie of convenience with my friend, I won't name him because I don't have his permission, but with my friend. I can when he's struggling, I can say to him, Oh, I'm really sorry, that's hard. Would you like a hug? Please say no And it makes him laugh, and then we move on.

Mark

Oh, brilliant.

Heidi

Which I freaking love because I can imagine this kid like breaking his heart over something. And Theo being like, Oh, I don't really know what to do. Would you like a hug? Please say no. And then them all pissing themselves laughing. You know, I I love that. I love it.

Mark

Yeah, that is wonderful. So I think we've we've fully uh explored the world of honesty uh in neurodivergent kits. So uh we'll get on to The next section.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

The next section is the it's not all rubbish section, which is going to be where we look at the positive aspects of Neurodivergent kids, of which there are many, and we've talked about a lot of positives already. So I think their honesty is a positive in itself, but there's even more. So, one of the things I wanted to discuss is neurodiversity champions, which I'm a big favorite of is talking about any people or institutions or experiences you've had where your neurodiversity has been complete You know, accommodated. Have you got any neurodiversity champions you want to talk about?

Heidi

I mean, there are so many, but one of the organisations that That I really love like making sure people know exist is an organisation called Mind Jam. So, MindJam are a Independent provision. And they work a lot of the work they do is supporting children and young people who have barriers to attendance. So who are either out of school or even are home ed practically all of the kids that they work with are neurodivergent, and they do it through online gaming.

Mark

Okay.

Heidi

So they have like a team, a a rapidly expanding team of mentors who work one to one with kids online, gaming in like a mentorship relationship So they offer emotional and special educational need support for children and young people through the things that is their ways to connect. So they don't force like kind of neurotypical expectations of what is acceptable. They don't do that thing of, oh, you know, well, if they're not doing what you want them to do, turn their screens off, take their devices off Them, they go, Okay, cool. We know that neurodivergent kids, when they're in crisis, or even when they're just in, you know, searching for joy, a lot of the places that they'll find that will be on online gaming. So they make safe places for them to build relationships with adults who they can trust. To bridge that gap, which I think is freaking glorious. They do amazing work, amazing work. So they're called Mind Jam and they work nationally. Yeah. And Dan, who runs them, is. Amazing. Yeah. And they also so they do they have online mentoring, but they also do have um counsellors on their team as well. So that when a child or young person has built a relationship of trust, you can then have them have some mental health support. As well. But they work predominantly with PDA, autistic, ADHD, kids with trauma profiles, and the work they do is transformative. And it's all like. The kid turns up and they're like, Right, so do you want to do Fortnite, Minecraft, or Roblox or something else? Um, yeah, and I've seen amazing things happen through them, so they'll work out.

Mark

Sounds fantastic. Okay, yeah, I will definitely check those. Out, thank you. Um, I also, it's worth mentioning EOTAS Matters as well. Um, you're a university champions, yeah, definitely. So, yeah, so uh, actually, yeah, just tell us a little bit about EOTAS Matter Which is your own organisation?

Heidi

Yeah, organisation sounds so grand, doesn't it?

Mark

Disorganisation.

Heidi

Disorganisation. Car crash. That is a limited company. So. Yeah, pr our our work, my work, the work of me and the people who I work with is to support parents and carers of neurodivergent learners who maybe have barriers to attendance So it started off with helping people get EOTAS packages, but it's really grown. So what we do now is that we help parents and carers of neurodivergent kids to understand like low arousal approaches, trauma informed practices, low demand parenting advocating for their kids, their rights, their you know, what they can ask for, the EHP process. And we also run, um, once a year, we run a program called Neuro Curious, which is for adv Of parents and carers of neurodivergent kids who themselves think, oh my God, maybe I'm neurodivergent. And we do a 12-week program where we're like, oh, come on in. Yes, let's show you just how autistic. You really are. Yes. And it's something I'm really proud of.

Mark

So, yeah.

Heidi

So we have an online membership for parents and carers called the Marble Run, where we have regular guests, QA's, a bank of resources and trainings on. Everything to do with neurodivergency HCP, send provision, education, low-demand parenting trauma-informed approaches Yeah, and I'm really proud of it.

Mark

We've worked really hard and we've got incredible people working with us. Having a rummage around your website and it's just packed with loads of amazing stuff. So if any of our listeners want to check that out It is www. Heidi Mavir com, isn't it?

Heidi

Yeah. Or if you just search Heidi EOTAS, you'll find me.

Mark

I will put the link in the show notes so that everyone can act. Can access that as well. I've got a neurodiversity champion that sort of touches on what I mentioned earlier when we went to see the Totoro at the Barbican, because that was an amazing experience. And I just wanted to kind of Give a shout out to the Barbican for that. It's not on at the moment, but they had a relaxed event and it was a Saturday matinee, and it was sort of lights were up, and the noise was down a bit. And it was so nice to just be in a theater space where my child could fidget and make noise and talk and not be shushed or, you know, or kind of judged. It was really lovely to be able to have that experience. What was also amazing was that they had it was a signed like hey, there's a sign language interpreter on the stage. And normally, if you see that kind of thing, they're sort of Stuck at the side, just signing at the side.

Heidi

Are they like integrated? Integrated.

Mark

It was amazing.

Heidi

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Mark

It was so good because the kids were sort of interacting with them like that. She was some kind of housemaid or something.

Heidi

So she was in like an excellent character.

Mark

Yeah, and they were having little signed conversations with them separately, and it was like it was wonderful. And I found out that that was the only performance they were doing, and it was so integrated into the whole thing. that it felt so natural. It's like this this was just great. So, I mean, yeah, it wasn't about neurodiversity, but I just it was so wonderfully done. So shout out to uh the Totoro live show and The barbican for everything they did there because that was fantastic.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, so we're going to do some tiny epic wins now. So tiny, tiny in the neurotypical world, but epic in our world. So have you got any tiny epic wins for us, Heidi?

Heidi

I mean, we have so many. Like I was listening to some of your other episodes and what other people have said is that, you know, when you're a parent in a neurodivergent household, how you measure wins are so different to everybody else, especially if you're a child or young person Has been in crisis. So, you know, Theo was very, very poorly for about two years, really unwell, frighteningly so So the things that are happening now for him feel like massive step forwards, massive steps forward, rather. So I was thinking about this, and there are lots of little things, but this feels like quite a big thing, but it's it's like extra, extra big. So he has never been able to manage public traffic Transport. Like, if you ask him about buses, he'll tell you about when he was on a bus once when he was nine years old, and there was a chicken drumstick down the side. Of the seat, and now he can't get on a bus because of that. Okay, right, which you know, like, yeah, okay, cool. Uh, buses are chicken drumstick nightmares, so yeah, but anyway, so it's something we've been working on with him. because he wants to be able to do that. So his occupational therapist and his support mentor have been working a lot. And it's been about him building his confidence around not just being expected to get on the bus, but having the confidence to book a ticket and to know where he wants to go and to have a reason for going there rather than just getting on a bus because someone says you need to be able to get on a bus.

Mark

Yeah, of course.

Heidi

Over the summer holidays, he and his friends, he went on the train to Leeds from Wakefield, where we live. Yeah. Which is like a ten minute train ride. And then he got off the train, walked to the bus station, met his friends at the bus station Bought them all tickets and they all got the bus to amazing, which is freaking massive.

Mark

He bought them all tickets as well. He's like, I've got this.

Heidi

He planned the journey. He was like, I don't know if he paid for them. Probably did. We have to do some work on money management. He's like, oh, money, Lego, amazing.

Mark

One step at a time, though, Heidi.

Heidi

Yeah, it's a working process. And he's now talking about that he c maybe I could get the bus to college 'cause I've been driving him to college for 18 months And he is talking about. Well, no, he is committed to going away to university in September, which is messing with me big time.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And wants to live in. But he was saying that his friend. It says he says, Oh, it's my friend's birthday in January. Um, and we're gonna I'm gonna go to Sheffield on the train. We're gonna get a hotel and, Mum, I'm gonna get drunk I'm like, okay. He's like, yeah, I think before I go to university, I should find out what kind of a drunk I am because you're a mean drunk, and my dad's a funny drunk, and I kind of want to know which one I am. So, I've just got this. The only thing he'll drink is Malibu and pineapple. So, I have this vision of him going to Sheffield and being in a hotel room with his mates just getting absolutely wasted. But honestly, I'm here for it. Yeah, I'm like, you're nineteen, it's time, it's time, son. I'm really proud of you for planning in your drunken With people who are going to be safe around you to work out whether that's something you want to pursue further. So, yeah, that's a mini-win for me. My kid wants to go and get shit-faced in Sheffield.

Mark

I want to revisit that in the future. We'll see how that w

Heidi

I'll keep you posted.

Mark

I mean, it could be all kinds of messy, but that's the point though, right? If it's not messy, you haven't done it right.

Heidi

No. And like there's there's a blessing in the fact that he's nineteen and he's never been drunk yet. I mean thank God. I was passed out in hedges when I was twelve, so he's winning at life.

Mark

I mean, I do worry I mean, Jay is gonna Probably want to drink at some point, and the thing about alcohol is that it makes you lose your inhibitions. He doesn't have any inhibitions. What the fuck is going to happen? It's gonna be carnage.

Heidi

Well, if I'm anything to go by, I can give you some horror stories, but it probably wouldn't make you feel better about it.

Mark

No, let's not. Let's not go there yet. My tiny epic win is a We've discovered bamboo socks. Do you know about these? Oh, so are they soft and no seams? They are soft and seamless

Heidi

And I cannot believe.

Mark

I cannot believe it's taken me so long to be shown the light Um, because all of my kids have massive issues wearing socks. And Jay's issues wearing socks meant that there were certain shoes that he he refused to wear um because he wouldn't and I realized now that it was the socks that were the issue, not the shoes. So he would wear crocs everywhere and I had to find all kinds of varieties. You can't make crocs going to school. And I mean, he can now. Just let him get on with it.

Heidi

I mean, you can, but who wants to have to fight for that reasonable adjustment, really?

Mark

Exactly. But then someone I I saw on one of one of the groups on um one of the Facebook groups, the mascot group, um, which is fantastic. And someone mentioned bamboo socks from Sock Shop and I bought some To try them out because also India was refusing to wear socks as well. So I was like, well, I'll try these. And now I don't even need to ask them to put their socks on They just put them on and they love it. And it's like that is a massive game changer. I mean, of the myriad battles I have to fight in the morning to get them to school, that has removed one skirmish So I'll take it.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, we're gonna do the my f usually my favorite section, which is the what the flip section of the show, just 'cause I get to get Stuff off my chest that I've been sitting on for a while. So, have you had any particular what the flip moments with Theo recent

Heidi

I mean, yes, so many. I was thinking about so, these are those moments where you're like, where did that come from?

Mark

And yes, and I don't know how to respond.

Heidi

Yeah. So there was one like he does he says funny things all the time. But I it it was one that gave me a real insight into how His brain works. He recently has been able to do cooking and he's basically taken over the cooking for the household. So he can cook and he can do a little bit of cleaning up as he goes, but he can't manage dirty dishes. Okay. And he can't manage like washing up or even touch dirty plates. And he said to me the other day, he was eating a packet of crisps. And he'd finished the packet of crisps and he put he'd literally just put it down, just put it on the table. And I said, Theo, put your crisp packet in the bin. And he went, No, mum, I can't touch it. It's rubbish. And I was like, I'm sorry, what now? Literally, within seconds of him putting it down, it had transferred from being some kind of like magical transformation. From being a receptacle whereby to eat crisps to being something so dirty he couldn't touch it because it was rubbish. And it gave me that moment of like, this is what the cooking thing is about, this is what the washing up thing is about. When we go out to eat. After he has finished his meal, he needs for us to move the plate away really quickly because a dirty plate makes him really anxious.

Mark

That's interesting.

Heidi

But while he's eating off it, it's fine. And it gave me a real like, okay, all right. So the crisp packet was, I was just like And I had a moment when I was like, Are you shitting me? Like, is this you just trying to? Are you just being really lazy? Right, but he doesn't lie.

Mark

We know he doesn't lie.

Heidi

We establish this. It's like, he won't touch that now. It's rubbish. Wow, that's so funny. And then I was like, oh God, this is going to be fun when you're an adult living on your own. But yeah, that was my what the flip moment this week.

Mark

What about you? I've got a few. One of the, one of Jay's phrases to describe Otto who'd um who'd hurt himself again. He o Otto can hurt himself in an empty room. It happens very often and he'd hurt his knee. And Jay just kind of looked at him witheringly and then turned to me and went, His knees are weaker than French toast. Where is that from?

Heidi

Oh, I freaking love that. I don't know where you are.

Mark

I love that. And then one of the other ones. Again, his phrasing is just wonderful. When he was like, Why are you on your phone? And I was responding to an email for him, actually. So, anyway, yeah. Was a family support call.

Heidi

Yeah, he doesn't care.

Mark

He wants to get a lot of people. Yeah, no, he doesn't care. So I was like, look, Jay, our phones, we don't just use our phones for phone calls. You know, they use it for other things as well, like, you know, like emails. And we use it for maps to find out where we're going. And he went, Oh, pish posh, the Romans got around without phones. Pish posh Pish Posh. I've never heard of that in my life, but I know what it means.

Heidi

That is amazing. That is amazing. He my this is a historical one, but when he said it to me, I was we were sat and he would have been about eight or nine. Yeah, we were sat in watching T V. And we weren't watching anything that would have triggered this at all. But he just turned to me in the middle of whatever it was we were watching and went Um, I have a question for you. And I was like, Okay. And he went, We've got a cat.

Mark

Okay.

Heidi

If we were going to get the cat tattooed, what kind of tattoo would we get? And then I think a whale and then just looked at me just like There's so much there. There's so much. I don't know, Theo. Like, I know just. And he was like, I'll let you think about it.

Mark

Yeah, please do. I'm going to need a couple of weeks 'cause there's a lot going on there. Okay. Um now before we kind of uh close the show, uh I always like To ask my guests to talk about the best things about their kids. So, what's your favorite thing about Theo?

Heidi

I mean, he forever cracks me up with and it's and he now is of that age where he is intentionally and confidently funny. For a long while, I was like, Does he know how funny he is? Like, am I laughing at him or with him? But he, um, one of the things I love most about him Is that he is super kind. So, like, and he's like my little like, I joke all the time that he's the responsible adult in our house You're like, he's the person who's mostly holding it all together. So, yeah, this is a WhatsApp message from him yesterday. Please, can you put the hot water on? I'd like a bath Also, eat some food. There's wraps in the fridge. Also, have a drink and don't forget to take your meds. Love you. That's from him at like half past nine yesterday morning in a break between his lessons in college

Mark

You've reached the tipping point, Heidi. He's parenting you now.

Heidi

When he goes to university, I'm going to be absolutely stuffed. Absolutely stuffed So, yeah, I love that he's hilarious and he really takes care of me.

Mark

Yeah, that's a win, right? Yeah, that's a massive win. Yeah. So that is it for another episode of Neuroshambles. Before you go, I would like to just Divert your attention to the socials. We're on Facebook and Instagram, Reddit, and Threads. Still not X. That's not going to change And obviously, if you like what you hear, please follow us on all the socials, like, and word of mouth is probably the thing I would urge you to do. If you think someone else can benefit from this, then tell them. about it and and spread the word. That'd be great. It'd be good to push us up to past the 124th best parenting podcast In Hungary. I'm going for, I want to break the top 100 at some point, so particularly for our Hungarian listeners. Pull your finger out. But other than that, I just want to say massive thank you to Heidi for coming and joining us and sharing your neuroshambolic households with us.

Heidi

Thanks for having me. It was fun. It was fun.

Mark

Good, good. And check out Heidi's website. Everything's going to be in the show notes. Everything we talked about, Iotis Matters. Your child is not broken, which is a brilliant book. And all that remains for me to say is thank you so much for listening and have a nice life.