Do our kids feel empathy? | Heidi Mavir

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode 29 of Neuroshambles. As ever, it is a joy to have you aboard Neuroshambles Gamblers, thank you so much for bearing with me while I took a month off for the Christmas and New Year period. Just needed to kind of hunker down and get through it because it is a pretty turbulent time of the year. Um which also involved me being ill for pretty much all of it. So um that wasn't much fun, but here we are. I've got a really great show lined up where I'm gonna be Talking to one of the guests that we had on season one, which is uh really fun to have her back. And uh, we've got a really interesting topic of the week this week. We'll also be looking at some more neurodiversity champions, some tiny epic wins, and Somewhat the flip moment. So what are we waiting for? Let's launch into it

SECTION INTRO

Meet the Guest

Mark

This week's guest is someone who I chatted to relatively early on in season one of Neuroshambles, and I'm so glad she's agreed to return for another fun, animated and no doubt quite sweary chat with me. She is an author, an advocate, an activist, and a public speaker who supports parents navigating the knotty world of education otherwise than at school. It is a warm welcome back to the tremendous Heidi Mavir. How are you doing, Heidi?

Heidi

Hello, and you pronounced my name right as well.

Mark

I always do, I think.

Heidi

Start to the year to pronounce my name correctly. Thank you.

Mark

Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. So Obviously we talked a a a while back now. Um probably worth reminding people of your neuroshambolic setup there.

Heidi

It's fucking shambolic.

Mark

Obviously, that's why you're on.

Heidi

So I have a house and up until September of 2024, I shared it with my son Theo. and his dog and our cat and his tortoise. But in September he went to university and he took the dog with him. So I am now a single mom to a cat and a tortoise. He is autistic ADHD, as am I. And also some other kind of like funky variations on the theme of neurodivergence. He has a tick disorder. We both probably have Ellers Danloff syndrome. He's probably dyslexic. I've probably got a personality disorder. So, you know.

Mark

No, you've just got a personality, Heidi. That's the big difference.

Heidi

I mean, it's one of those things that I was like diagnosed with lots of things until I before I got diagnosed with autism and ADHD. Some days it feels like those are accurate, and other days it feels like, oh, it was just that you didn't spot the autism in ADHD. You're just collecting them like badges in the scouts, right? Yep. Kind of what I am known for, if that's not a really wanky thing to say, is that I wrote a book about our experience of Theo not being able to go to school.

Mark

It's not wanky at all. It's a fantastic book.

Heidi

Thanks called Your Child is Not Broken, Parent Your NeuroDivergent Child Without Losing Your Marbles. And it was a book about our experience of him not being able to go to school anymore. and the process of realizing and uncovering our neurodivergence, getting diagnoses and not, and navigating the education system. So that all happened when he was fifteen. He's now twenty. He was diagnosed Autistic ADHD when he was 16, and I was diagnosed Autistic ADHD when I was 47.

Mark

Right, okay.

Heidi

So, yeah, that's us. Excellent. Neuroshambolic as F.

Mark

But owning it, which is the joy of it. Anyway, thanks for reintroducing me to your setup. Yeah, let's crack on with the topic of the week because I'm really interested in this one.

SECTION INTRO

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, in the previous episode that I recorded with Heidi back in season one, which I think it was episode seven. Um, she made a comment about how the commonly held belief that neurodivergent humans don't feel empathy is actually bullshit. I believe was the term you used. And at the time, we sort of discussed it a little bit. We moved on pretty quickly, but it it's genuinely stuck with me for quite a long time of how true that is or not. Because particularly when I look at Jay, who doesn't appear to show any modicum of empathy ever, I sort of started processing it and thinking about it a lot. And so when we were looking at a list of potential topics for this episode, I wanted to bring us back to the subject of empathy and take a Deeper dive into it to understand it a bit more and to see to what extent our neurodivergent kids are able to exhibit it. And and it has been quite interesting 'cause I thought I knew what empathy was. A It was one of those things that you just assume you know what it is. But when I started trying to define it, it sort of became a bit

Heidi

sort of quite slippery, isn't it?

Mark

It is a slippery one because I think you get mixed up with sympathy and empathy, right? So I it's worth sort of making the distinction between those two. So sympathy is when you feel pity for someone else's misfortune or circumstances, but crucially, that you feel it from your perspective. Whereas empathy is interpreting, understanding and acting on other people's emotions, but notably the ability to Understand it from their viewpoint and put yourself in their shoes. So, for example, let's say someone has an ice cream and they drop it and they're really looking forward to it. Sympathy is going, Yeah, that sucks that you dropped your ice cream. Empathy is saying, I bet you were really looking forward to that, and you're probably feeling quite sad now. That must be quite upsetting for you. And that's a very different thing. And I decided to see to what extent Jay was aware of what empathy was. And I said What is empathy J? And his response was, something I don't have. If someone gets shot in the knee, that's not my problem.

Heidi

But he's not wrong.

Mark

I mean, it's not wrong.

Heidi

Unless he was the person pulling the trigger, then it maybe it's.

Mark

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, then you need to run. But I mean, I think, you know, of all the things that I read about empathy, that that sort of was a a very succinct description of Something that he definitely doesn't have.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

It's not his problem. I get it. It makes perfect sense.

Heidi

I think it's really interesting because, like, to be all like nerdy about it, Um first thing I did was check the dict dictionary definition.

Mark

Oh, yeah, what does the dictionary say?

Heidi

The dictionary definition of empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Mark

Yes, okay.

Heidi

So it comes from the Greek origin, m for in and pathos for feeling. So being able to be in the feelings. But like the real problem I have with the whole I think it's the generalization of particularly autistic people. Autistic people don't experience empathy. That's the generalization. It's the stereotype, right? And the reason I have such a problem with it is because I think it's so dehumanizing as a notion. Like because there is this thing about, you know, what makes us different to every other creature on earth? You know, we use tools and we express empathy. Right, and so if we don't express empathy, then we're less than human, and that's where I get a bit defensive about. I think that's bullshit.

Mark

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Heidi

So That said, I'm with Jay. Like if someone's been spotting the knee, it really isn't my problem.

Mark

Yeah, where's the shoe set? I need to get out of the line of fire right now.

Heidi

That's my primary concern. And I I think there is also that thing of this thing when you're thinking about feelings, you know, when you're like what we were saying, and you said, oh, I think that it just comes naturally to some people and not to other people We can only go on what we experience internally ourselves, right? So I can only assume that other people experience the world the same way that I do, but there's no way of knowing that for sure. Do you know what I mean? Like, so when we say that person doesn't experience empathy, there's genuinely no way of proving that. I mean, we can look at do they appear to be expressing empathy for other people? Does they appear to be responding in a way we consider to be a Commonly expressed means of showing people that you feel what they're feeling, right? But we can't ever. I just think it's a really the reason I'm so like, it's bullshit is because I think it's a really dangerous stereotype.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And it sort of basically says, ah, autistic people, I'm using autistic people as an example because it generally is autistic people that have a label. Autistic people don't have empathy. Who else doesn't have empathy? psychopaths, right?

Mark

And I'm like robots, basically, yeah.

Heidi

And and that's why I have so much issue with it as a sweeping generalization. That said, I live with a young person who expresses feelings and empathy and sympathy and all of that stuff. in quite a different way to maybe other people in his peer group and in quite a different way to I do. So I think that there's we can't just say that there isn't any evidence that neurodivergent people experience feelings differently. I just think it's really dangerous. Be in the territory of. And there are diagnosable conditions. There is a condition, it's basically an empathy disorder, where basically you fail a number of tests and they go, you've got no empathy. You know, and also bipolar disorder is also sometimes characterized by lacking empathy or having you know, those cluster B personality types, but again, we're in stereotyping and we're in the heavy depths of ableism when we're starting to decide. It's that correlation between if we decide that someone has a particular trait, that means they're less than Because the majority of people experience the world in this way and express themselves in this way, and this batch of people over here don't. So there's something wrong with them, and that's why I have a massive issue with it. Does that make sense?

Mark

Yeah, and we'll definitely delve into that a bit further because I've been looking into it as well. Because again, just trying to pin it down for my own sake as well. I'd assume that empathy was just a thing. Just a characteristic. There are two different types of empathy that have been kind of identified. So there's cognitive empathy, which is The ability to understand what someone else is thinking or feeling based on facial expressions and tone of voice and body language and that sort of thing. And then there's emotional empathy, which is the ability to feel or share another person's emotions. So for example, if they're distressed, you feel upset on their behalf. And they're two very different things. And all people, um not just autistic people, but neurotypical people, um, will be able to exhibit Those different types of empathy to different degrees, I guess. Like I feel like I have very high cognitive empathy. I'm constantly aware of people's tone of voice and people's body language and that side of things. And probably quite a lot of emotional empathy as well, because I do tend to take on other people's drama. That's not to my credit. I'm just saying that's a characteristic of me. Whereas if you look at my kids you've got Jay, who probably does have cognitive empathy to a degree, but there's a difference between sort of understanding what someone is thinking and feeling and then giving a shit about it. So I think he probably cognitively understands it, but also doesn't really care because it doesn't affect him. Whereas Otto, on the other hand Probably is the other way around. He feels people's empathy and people's emotions really keenly and he really adopts that and and kind of responds to that very well, but probably less so understands you know, cognitively what they're feeling based on body language, you know, because he's a very close talker, you know, he's really close up. And when you sort of move away, he doesn't really take that in, he'll just move a bit closer. So I think That that's his own characteristic. I think India's probably somewhere in the middle of all of all of that.

Heidi

I think it's interesting as well. Like, there's, you know, the difference between empathy and sympathy, we've dug into it. I also think That there's a massive difference between empathy and compassion.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

And so someone can really understand how someone else is feeling and even like feel for them.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Right. In an empathetic way. But I personally, in my experience with other neurodivergent people, even people that don't appear to demonstrate high levels of empathy, hugely compassionate for the experience of other people. So, compassion, I think, is defined by.

Mark

wanting to do something to alleviate the feeling.

Heidi

About having a really intense feelings around senses of injustice, you know, like or when you were telling the story about the ice cream I've got a friend whose child has like real like attachments to non organic things, right? And when you were telling the story, I was thinking, well, in their case They wouldn't really give a shit about whether the person how the person felt about dropping their ice cream, but they would feel really sad for the ice cream.

Mark

Oh, really? That's interesting.

Heidi

Like my friend always says, you know, if If my child drops a smarty, they'll drop another one so they're not on their own.

Mark

Oh no, that's a big India thing, actually.

Heidi

That's really sweet.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, India does that a lot with animals and stuff.

Heidi

Right? So I think. One of the things that I was when I was reading about it, one of the things that I read about empathy was that people who, regardless of their neurotype, people who display less empathy, like as in Not necessarily don't have it, but display it less. That's often linked to trauma or you know, and they're going to dig into a little bit of alexathymia in a bit, but You know, there are reasons why people don't display empathy. For some people, it isn't safe to show how they're thinking or feeling. And so that's going to come into play. And for neurodivergent people. Many of us, you know, we don't know we're neurodivergent when we're very young. We're masking like mad. We're trying to assimilate. We're not going to display that empathy in the same way because it doesn't feels safe for us to do so. So I think there's a lot more to it than I just hate that autistic people don't have empathy. I just think it just drives it drives me mad. And that's what I mean when I say that's bullshit.

Mark

I mean, because one of the things that I started questioning as well is: why is it seen as so important? Empathy?

Heidi

Why is it so important?

Mark

Why do neurotypicals or just society in general? value empathy so greatly. And there are some apparently evolutionary kind of hangovers of if it helps to build group cohesion. which is a survival tactic because you're sort of aligning yourself with the group and therefore you're kind of yeah, with the pack, if you like. And so that that's an evolutionary tactic. And also it helps to de-escalate situations, understanding things from another person's standpoint. So I get it from that point of view.

Heidi

It's a social lubricant, right?

Mark

Yes, isn't it? Yeah. Small talk. Yeah, small talk. Empathy. Yes, but it is it is one of these unwritten things, isn't it, that is valued highly in neurotypical circles. If you like, it really is.

Heidi

And also, I don't know, like across neurotypes, I find it quite difficult to. So, this is one of my things. I don't ever cry at the cinema, ever.

Mark

Right, okay.

Heidi

And like, I can watch something really heartbreaking and I can feel it, but I don't express it.

Mark

And you acknowledge that it's heartbreaking, but it doesn't actually.

Heidi

Yeah, it makes me a bit sad. But I am also like, it's a film. Um but I do quite books. Oh, okay. That's interesting. And I think that's about my processing and how I imagine things when I'm reading them.

Mark

That's really interesting because i in a film I guess you're watching actors, you know that they're actors, but in the books I'm very internally myself.

Heidi

You know, I'm giving them chari I'm giving them faces and I'm giving them personalities and I'm maybe attaching a bit of the people I know to them. And do you know what I mean? So the exception to the rule for crying at films is on aeroplanes, but apparently that's something to do with the altitude.

Mark

Really?

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

Apparently sort of opens up the tears.

Heidi

Really? That's yeah. I cried at um oh, what is that film called? Miss Congeniality

Mark

I mean, it wasn't great I wasn't moved to tears.

Heidi

But I've watched Schindler's List many times. And really, I should have cried at Wicked and didn't. But that isn't about not feeling it, it's about expressing it.

Mark

Yes.

Heidi

So important distinction to make it.

Mark

Yeah, what I was kind of thinking is that if people are expressing empathy but they don't feel it, because sometimes you get that, you know, like the neurotypicals will express empathy for someone. don't actually mean it. They just, you know, that it's the social lubricant. Is that somehow more valid than not feeling it and not expressing it?

Heidi

It's a I think it's a real insult when someone says, well, they have no empathy. Like that's up there with their they're a narcissist, right? Which also gets bandied about a lot and that annoys me. But I think that If someone because what because I guess for me, right, if someone genuinely has no capacity to imagine or feel the feelings of someone else then that person is potentially dangerous, right? That person is potentially a risk taker. A bridge burner, a tree shaker, not to be trusted, right? Yeah, and I don't mean dangerous in like a, oh, they might stab you in your sleep kind of way, but like in a, they're not going to go with the pack, they're not going to go with the herd, and they're potentially going to make a bit of trouble. You know, and I think generally speaking, societally, we don't like those people. You know, we don't like people who are troublemakers.

Mark

What if you look at that evolutionary hangover again? It's like you're not part of our tribe because you're not playing the r by our Hidden rules.

Heidi

Yeah. But also I think there's that for me, and I don't know, I can only go on personal experience. I think I know this sounds really woo, and I don't mean it to sound really woo, but I do get like vibes in spaces, right? Okay, like not in like a Ouija board way, but like if I walk into a room and someone just strikes me as a bit off, then I'm I think I'm pretty good at picking up those. Now that's probably nonverbal signals.

Mark

Yeah, this is something that I've been Reading about recently, it's patter it's pattern recognition. I've been here before, I've seen this these and you're probably not aware of what it is, they just give you the ick, right? Right. And you pick up.

Heidi

For a long time I didn't trust that and like I would ignore red flags. And now I've learned to lean into that and to trust my red flags. And they're rarely wrong. I I would argue that that's probably Empathy in action. Do you know what I mean? Like that's being able to understand that someone is not aligned with you and that someone's having feelings or experiences or whatever it might be. You're able to pick up on that, you're able to identify what it is that's going on for them, whether that's something else, and you're able to go, oh no, not For me, thanks very much. From speaking to other neurodivergent people, I think that's a common experience that we get that. Oh, they give me the ick. Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Heidi

Now, why is that less valuable than being able to tell someone that you must you understand how terrible they must feel that they've not got their ice cream.

Mark

Yeah, no, absolutely. The thing that I found really interesting Is the double empathy problem? Have you have you have you heard? The double empathy problem is fascinating. I've been read I've been listening to I don't read because I just don't have time, but I can listen to stuff. 'Cause I do a lot of cleaning, right? That's great. And um I've got an audiobook by Pierre Novellie. Have you heard of Pierre Novellie? Great comedian and he's just released an audiobook called Why Can't I Just Enjoy Things. Have you heard it?

Heidi

No, is it good?

Mark

Oh, so good.

Heidi

It's so good. I love it.

Mark

He's basically sort of talking about his experiences in autistic The things he finds difficult and explaining why he does it, but it's so funny and it's so clearly written and written from the This is why I'm so convinced of my perspective and why I do things the way that I do them, because I'm not just making shit up. This is just what I experience and what I'm what I'm dealing with. And he talks a lot about the double empathy problem. And the common misunderstanding, which is what you're kind of alluding to earlier, is that a lack of empathy is a failing of neurodivergence, that they're failing to understand and empathize with neurotypicals. And what's quite interesting is, again, something that Pierre Novelli talks about is that studies have shown that autistics have the same level of emotional empathy as neurodivergence, but that it's the cognitive empathy. that they have the difficulty with. It's the bit about interpreting the neurotypical cues that trigger that empathy, if you like. And one of the things he says is that um if you have neurodivergent people talking to neurodivergent people, they show similar levels of empathy to neurotypical people talking to neurotypical people. And he's saying that the issue this isn't his theory, by the way, just to be clear. The double empathy theory was coined by Dr. Damien Milton in 2012. And I'll do the quote which kind of explains what it is. It says, simply put, the theory of the double empathy problem suggests that when people with very different experiences of the world interact with one another, They will struggle to empathize with each other. So basically, it's a disconnect in understanding. Between neurodivergence and neurotypical. So, it's not a failing of the neurodivergence. Yes, neurodivergence might not interpret or respond to emotions in a given situation in a way that the neurotypical world would want them to or expects them to. But conversely, neurotypicals don't appreciate that neurodivergence would rather you just stop whinging about stuff Dial down the emotion and cut to the chase.

Heidi

Get to the point, yeah. Yeah.

Mark

So Pierre Novellie gives a fantastic example of this. He's like, I used to have people around to my house when I was a kid, and my mum was always appalled because I'd go and get myself a drink. and I wouldn't get them a drink. And she was like seeing that as a lack of empathy. It's like, well, no, because if they want a drink, then they should just ask me for a drink. How how am I supposed to know that they want a drink? It's like, do I need to ask them if they need to go to the toilet all the time as well, until they do? Do they want me to blink their eyelids for them? It's brilliant.

Heidi

In our house, we we've had a house guest over Christmas, and my son will go in the kitchen, get himself something to eat, come back, sit down. I'll be like, Do do we not get some crisps? Right, but that's but do you want crisps? Exactly. What just ask? Yeah, I wouldn't mind. Well, you didn't tell me you wanted crisps. You saw me get up.

Mark

And what he was saying is like: if you ask for a drink, I will give you all the empathy in the world. I will give you my very last can of Coke. The problem is not that I'm not empathizing with the situation, it's that I don't know that you have. The need of a drink.

Heidi

I'm not a mind reader.

Mark

Yeah, exactly.

Heidi

Yeah. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like the, you know, when people Say, oh, well, you should just know. I don't have a frickin crystal ball. How should I just know? Like, one of the things that my son always struggled with at school when we were doing like when he was studying like history or English and like inference, right? How do you think Anne Boleyn felt when Henry VIII decided he was going to cut her head off? And Theo would be like How do I know? I'm not a Tudor queen. You know, like, and I think that's valid.

Mark

It totally is. I had this with Jay when he was doing homework with English homework, and he. He would similarly get really annoyed, and there'd be whole questions he'd just leave out. It's like, why have you left this out? And then they say, What is Peter feeling in this situation?

Heidi

How the bloody hell do I don't know.

Mark

And I just started to kind of realize how unfair it is in English comprehension that you're asking You know, essentially ableist questions.

Heidi

You know, genuinely, how the bloody hell do I know how you feel? Right? And I can. I can imagine if I, if I make an effort, I can imagine how you might feel in a circumstance situation. But then I also get the added difficulty of As a neurodivergent person, the way that I show you that I know how you feel is I tell you about an experience I had when I felt how I think you are feeling. Yes. Which is considered a bit rude. No, it is, isn't it?

Mark

And again, that's quite an ADHD trick, I think, as well. It's like, oh, oh, I know, I knew that so I'm going to say the same story as you.

Heidi

I'm not uh and then people think well Firstly, I've told that story.

Mark

But that's all about you.

Heidi

Yeah, that's a way of like neurodivergent people connecting.

Mark

And then we might be crying about splitting up with their boyfriend. He'd be like, oh, yeah, I split on my boyfriend when I was 12. It's like, how's that fucking relevant?

Heidi

Because I'm showing you that I understand. I think I understand how you feel. I'm finding a place for connection. But I don't have those. So the double empathy thing about. you know, the basically the different languages of them that neurodivergent and neurotypical people speak. And I do find that kind of like that very clear like them and us thing tricky, but let's go with it for for the time being. I don't have any difficulty feeling, expressing, sharing empathy with my neurodivergent friends. you know, I have no problem with I've got a very dear friend who like she's my most precious person. She can say to me, I'll message her and she could be like, mate, I'm having a shit day. I'm really sorry. I don't have room for this right now. And I'll be like, cool. And I'm not in the least bit offended. But someone who maybe is not neurodivergent says that to me. or who I don't know as well as her, I would be really like I would be upset. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think there's a thing about because we speak the same language and we have the same terms of reference and we've built this friendship like we just cut through the shit. I'm not looking for a Oh, that must be awful. Yeah. Or let me help you fix that response. I'm looking for a I hear ya.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Do you know what I mean? That and I'm looking for an honest response.

Mark

This is a huge thing between Tam and I in our relationship. And we only realized it basically when it was too late, um, was the different ways that we needed, you know, empathy to be displayed. I need empathy. So if I've had a shit day and I come in and I go, you know, I've had a really shit day and I'm, you know, and I'm sharing whatever happened that day. What I really need is someone to sit with me in that moment and validate my feelings and go, man, yeah, they're a bunch of pricks. That must be really annoying. Tam didn't do that because that's not how Tam perceives the worlds. So Tam would be just trying to fix it. And basically looking at ways that I could solve it. And I'm like, I can, I will, I'll get to that bit. I just want someone to sit with me in this bit and sort of, you know, stroke my back and go, yeah, they're a bunch of brilliant. Yeah, yeah, and then I can go right now. I've handled that. Now let's look at solving it.

Heidi

That's also about knowing. like what people are good for good for as well. Like you know it's different when it's an intimate partner, but I've got friends who are fixers. And if I need a solution, I can message them and go, This has happened. They'll be like, right. You know what I mean? And I've got other friends who are like, Soothers. Does that mean that?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I was looking for Tam to be a soother and Tam wasn't. And conversely It worked the other way around as well. I remember once where, um, quite early on in our relationship, um, we went out for dinner and Tam got their bike nicked And we came back and the bike was gone, and Tam got really upset by it. And I instinctively was like, Give me a hug. You know, I like went to give them a hug. She's like, call the police. No, they pushed, literally pushed me away. I was like, what the fuck? They're trying to make it better, right? Literally pushed me away. And I was really like a bit. kind of offended by that but obviously like you know me and tam have talked about it since and and they've sort of said like that i didn't i didn't want a hug i wanted a bike It's like, yeah, that's reasonable. But in that moment, I'm sort of responding in the way that I would want it. I'd want that empathy and that, like, ah, just sit in this moment and And that's the double empathy problem in a nutshell, isn't it?

Heidi

Is that there's different languages of what we need. Yeah. What book is it? Is it How to Win Friends and Influence People? One of those like wanky self-help books that says the mistake that we make is that we treat people how we would want to be treated, and what we need to do is treat people how they would want to be treated.

Mark

Yes, but then surely it takes empathy to understand how they want to be treated.

Heidi

Or just a bit of freaking honesty.

Mark

Just tell them. Yeah, but in the moment, you know. Their bike's been nicked and they're upset about it. I'd be like, now, how do you want me to treat you?

Heidi

You know what, though, with my friend that I just mentioned, um We have this thing where one of us will message the other one and say, Have you got any capacity to hold like this thing that I'm about to dump on you? Something just happened with a member of the family and I'm about to have a rant. And they'll be like, Yeah, bring it on. Or I'll be like, bring it on. And then we'll almost immediately go, now what I need you to do is to tell me that I'm right and they're assholes. Or, what I need to do is help me work out what I'm going to do about it.

Mark

That's good. I think you said in the last episode about Theo once when a friend was sad and he was like. I can't remember what the cup of tea is.

Heidi

Do you want a cup of tea?

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

A hug or a solution? Something like that. Like, that's his favourite. But I love things. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. Multiple choice. Tell me what you want. what you want me to be in this moment. Whereas I think that neurotypicals have the assumption that most people want the empathy in that emotional sense. But because neurodivergence are so wildly different in what they need and how they perceive things and how they interpret things.

Heidi

Yes, absolutely. And maybe neurotypical People too, I don't know.

Mark

I'm not speaking on behalf of all.

Heidi

I tend to mix with them as much as I can help it.

Mark

But, like, this is like an outreach program for you, I do.

Heidi

I'm just, you know, you know what I think about you, Mark.

Mark

I know I think that you're one of our friends.

Heidi

Yeah. And so as a neurodivergent person, particularly as a late identified neurodivergent person, who has the benefit of being socialized as a neurotypical person. Yeah.

Mark

You know how we work. albeit a kooky one, right?

Heidi

One of the gifts and don't get me wrong, it's really tricky being neurodivergent and I don't want to play that down, but one of the gifts of being a late identified neurodivergent person is that if you have the capacity and the resources As part of that journey, you have to work out what actually is going on inside your own brain. And I don't think neurotypical people really have to do that very often So I think that, you know, someone dies maybe, right? Like you have a big crisis in your life and you have a big, like, oh. What am I doing in my life moment? Or, you know, so you have a, you know, but generally speaking, I don't think that neurotypical people are challenged as much as neurodivergent people are to think about What is my brain doing? How is it different to other people? How do I make myself easier to be around? Right? Because, regardless, I don't believe for a second, like, even though those of us who are neurotypical who are not very social creatures. By definition, human beings are social creatures. Nobody wants to actually be and die alone. Like, I don't believe it

Speaker 4

right?

Heidi

We might find other people very difficult, but ultimately we're social creatures, right? So when you are identified as having a social communication difference Like there's this thing of, right, so now your job is to work out what that means. And so I think I wonder whether actually the reason that empathy is so low on the presentation for many neurodivergent people is that we've just kind of bypassed that by the necessity of we have to work out what we need and we have to work out how to ask

Mark

For it and advocate for yourselves, and right, yeah.

Heidi

And so, in amongst all of that, we haven't really got time for the luxury. Yeah, does that make sense?

Mark

It does, no, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's really interesting because obviously, I see things. very differently in my household because I'm the emotion haver in our household, I think, in that I'm the one that needs The empathy a lot of the time, and my kids aren't really old enough to tell me what they need at the moment. So, I will, if Otto is in meltdown and he's crying and he's overwhelmed, my instinct is to give him a massive hug. And go, it's going to be all right. He doesn't want that, but he does. Also, if I say, what do you want? which I do say now, to try and he doesn't know what he wants, he just doesn't want this, whatever this is, he just wants that to stop. And me giving a hug doesn't help. And similarly with India, when India's feeling incredibly frustrated and I try and give her a hug. it's not what she wants. Like she will give me lots of hugs when she's regulated, but at in that moment, it very similar to Tam, it's just going to push me away. It's like just can't handle it. And as a a neurotypical as a parent, it's really hard for me to understand what to do in that situation. Yeah. Especially when they can't really tell me. When they just have to sit by them.

Heidi

You just have to sit by them.

Mark

So it's great for you that Theo's like, this is what I need right now.

Heidi

And not always. Like we went through periods so like one of Theo's things, not so much now, but when he was in crisis, and it does happen occasionally, is that he does experience situational mutism. So when he's very, very stressed, he can't he can't speak. So on those occasions, pure guesswork. But then I think you just get into a bit. I mean, he's older as well. He's 20 now, right? So we've had time to work out the dynamics in our household, and I'm not getting it right every time by any stretch of the imagination. But I think generally speaking, the older your children get the easier that becomes. Just in terms of the level of like self awareness and and the experience, I guess.

Mark

The lived experience of how you yeah, how you respond to certain situations that's going to help.

Heidi

But it's interesting because as a younger person, like in my like late twenties, early thirties, right? I was a freaking wreck. I was like I do have big feelings about all the feelings all the time, right? I have big feelings about everything all the time. And In my twenties and thirties, I was just a car crash. I was just like hurtling from one crisis to another. Like my ADHD was in the driving seat for sure, right? And now I feel like as I've got a bit older, my autism is kind of more My autism, but you know, the tism is driving more than the ADHD is. The ADHD is in the back with the boot open, throwing shit out onto the motorist. No one notices, but it's just chaos. But, like, there was a big part of Because I didn't know I was neurodivergent and I was masking like mad, my mental health was significantly impacted by that. And so I was constantly trying to fake these social norms, and it was, you know, really difficult for me. But I was also probably spending way too much time with people who didn't share my neurotype.

Mark

And that was also having an impact on you. Okay. Yeah. And or people who didn't understand you because you didn't understand your neurotypics. So they didn't. So therefore they were say, you know, look viewing you as a fucked neurotypical rather than a glorious neurodivergent.

Heidi

Right. Or maybe they were the same. Maybe we were we were we had like a lovely connection, but we were both masked so heavily that we were just like

Mark

I mean, we're just drinking our way through it, that's why that helps us.

Heidi

You know, so but I do I do wonder if there's something about that as well, that you know, like This research will never get commissioned because it wouldn't benefit anybody apart from neurodivergent people. So why would they do that? But I would be really interested to know the difference in the levels of displayed empathy between neurodivergent people who are new on their journey versus later diagnosed and identified neurodivergent people who have gone through that process of unpicking all of that shit and working out what's going on and then refiling it under I'm not broken, I'm just neurodivergent. Because I think that there would be a difference. Like masking plays a massive part in whether you're able to actually express what you're thinking and feeling confidently and safely around other people.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. I I think um Pierre Novellie makes a really interesting uh point about about neurodivergent masking uh as being the most extreme example of empathy from neurodivergence.

Heidi

Like the very shows how like you I am. Yeah, exactly.

Mark

It's like I am so keen to not piss you off. that I will engage in small talk and I will give you eye contact and I will not talk about my in my special interests because I I think you're not going to be on board with it. That's the huge amount of empathy which is n not being displayed the other way round. because you don't get neurotypicals sort of going, I get that you want to talk to me about Lego for four hours, so let's just strap in and do it. It sort of seems one way. So it's a really interesting and very neuroaffirmative way of of phrasing it and and helping me see from the neurodivergent angle, I think it was yeah, it was really eye opening, that whole I haven't even finished it yet, but I'm

Heidi

I'm keen to read it. It sounds great.

Mark

It's really good. The audiobook is great 'cause he's a comedian as well, so he delivers it like really well as well. So one of the things you alluded to earlier is Alexithymia and the role that Alexithymia plays in empathy, which is really interesting. So this is something that I touched on in the navigating emotion episode of Neuroshambles. So if you don't know, listeners, what alexithymia is, essentially it's this inability to understand and interpret emotions very often in yourself, but certainly in other people.

Heidi

Yeah, a disconnect between what's going on in your mind and your body and what you're actually interpreting mentally.

Mark

So you know you're feeling a feeling. And you know that it makes you want to, you know, respond to it, get out the house or whatever it is, but you don't know what that feeling is actually. Yeah, if you like, you don't know if that's fear or if it's excitement, or that's the extreme version of it, obviously. You know, it's Estimated apparently that up to 50% of autistics have some degree of alexathymia, but the theory is that it's a sliding scale. It's not just a, you know, on or off. It's a, you know And again, this is something that we identified with Tam, is that they weren't able to have any level of emotional kind of introspection. So when I was like, What's going on? What's up? They wouldn't be able to tell me.

Heidi

And again, would they be able to tell you a couple of days later after they'd had some time to think about it?

Mark

Maybe. You know what really did help was texting.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

So I think a big a big part of the problem with Taminai's communication in terms of the empathy issue Was that my emotions were there? And the Alexathymu was basically going, I know that there are big emotions, I don't know what they are. I don't know what I feel about them. And so there was a level of overwhelm. I mean, I'm trying not to speak on behalf of Tam, but this is something that I've sort of interpreted from it. So we wouldn't be able to have those conversations. So we'd just shut them down. Whereas we we learned that if I texted things to Tam, I was surprised at how quickly things came back in a very reasoned, very rational, very kind of expressive way. So obviously alexidomia has a big part to play with empathy.

Heidi

We're big texters in our house.

Mark

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because again, you're taking out the emotion, right? You know, you can text things that might trigger emotions, but you're not having to interpret other people's emotions or think about your own in the same way. I don't know. It was it was this like it was like this magic thing that happened when we started doing that. It's like, oh, well you we can have this conversation, just not face to face.

Heidi

And I think that's also the thing with empathy, isn't it? Is that generally speaking empathy is perceived as something that you vocalize, that you communicate verbally. Right? Or that you I think yes, yeah. Whereas, you know, we have to understand that that is not actually The primary method of communication of most people on this planet. It's the shortcut, but it's not re like, it's not the only way that we communicate. And certainly, if you are someone who experiences alexithymia, like So my alexathymia is different to my son's, but his shows up as it's particularly when overwhelmed, when he's in like a central nervous system overwhelm. So his frontal cortex is offline, his brain is on fire, right? If you ask him in that moment, How do you feel? He couldn't tell you.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

Right? He wouldn't even have the words. Because, as well as Lex Thim, you've got that interception thing, right? So, being able to identify where in your body you're feeling a thing, what that feeling means. So butterflies in the tummy, what does that actually mean? Interpreting that, making sense of that. Then finding the word for that, then speaking the word for that. That's super complicated.

Mark

While your brain is already overwhelmed. Right.

Heidi

So it's no wonder that our kids in Meltdown can't tell us what's going on. But equally, I think that the one of the things with alexfymia that I think really plays into that misconception around empathy is that some of us I have this I have like delayed Emotional responses. So I can, and people will say to me all the time, oh, you know, you're such, you know, you're so confident, and I know that you can go into a courtroom, you can really, if you're advocating for a family, you can really like. Tear the barrister a new one, or whatever it might be, right? But then I will wake up at three o'clock in the morning sobbing. Right. Okay.

Mark

So you have delayed empathy.

Heidi

I have delayed emotional responses to empathies. So it's almost like I have a thing where in the moment when I need to do the thing, it's not conscious, but my brain switches that part of my processing off so I can do the job. And then when it's dealt with, when I'm fast asleep, it'll be like, oh, by the way, there's all this stuff from earlier today that made you feel really uncomfortable. There you go. Yeah, do it now.

Mark

Well, now you're trying to sleep.

Heidi

Right. But that is preferable to, you know, calling the judges, see you next Tuesday.

Mark

And just getting overwhelmed in the moment.

Heidi

Like for me, it's preferable. But I think that when I was in like well, I'm still in therapy, but when I was in therapy and like therapists would say to me, And where do you feel that in your body? I'd be like, what?

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Heidi

What do you mean? So, why is that relevant? Right. And then they want you to go, oh, I feel it in my chest and it feels like this. All that kind of like therapy speak of. it's the thing again, isn't it, of expecting you to be able to speak this classical language. And actually what you're interpreting is the neurodivergent Experience. So, yeah, I think alexithymia plays a massive part in us as neurodivergent people appearing less empathetic. neurotypical people assuming we don't have empathy.

Mark

And not being naturally drawn to neurotypical empathetic responses, the the ones that that they would they would expect.

Heidi

You to have right.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And also, if you walk into a room and someone's having big feelings, and you're, you know, like that pattern recognition thing, right? If you walk into a room and someone's having big feelings. And you know on a cellular level, even if not cognitively, that if you stay in that room, that then at three o'clock in the morning you're going to wake up sobbing, you'll leave the room.

Mark

And it was like rude. So it's like self-preservation.

Heidi

You won't know that in the moment. You'll know.

Mark

Yeah, okay. So you don't go, oh God. Someone's off having a blub. I'm going. This is coming back to me in the morning and I can't deal with it.

Heidi

Yeah, I mean, it's different for everyone, right? It's different for everyone. But I think there's a lot of there's a lot of privilege that goes with being able to access what you're feeling at any given moment in that moment.

Mark

Yeah, and I think there's a you know, from a neurotypical perspective You get neurotypicals who fucking lean into other people's emotions as well. And I don't think it's all altruistic. I think there's a there's a you know, it's the drama.

Heidi

People love a fuss, don't they? Yeah, exactly.

Mark

And and again, maybe it's sort of demonstrative 'cause like look how how much a part of this group I am. You know, I I have friends who just feel intense emotion for Anyone even like, you know, that someone's step-grand died or something, and they're like, like they're feeling it at 100 miles an hour.

Heidi

Like the Princess Diana experience, right? Like that. I can't.

Mark

Like a whole outing of neurotypicals, doesn't it?

Heidi

I can ask the weirdest example of neurotypical empathy I've ever seen in my life. Don't get me wrong, amazing human being. a great loss, right? For lots of reasons. And it was almost like no one had ever lost anyone in their entire life.

Mark

Yeah, people lost their shit, didn't they?

Heidi

It was really like, I remember being like, what the f? fuck is going on here?

Mark

Yeah, there was like group group hysteria, wasn't it?

Heidi

It's not inappropriate to say that, it probably isn't.

Mark

No, no, it's not though, because I think again, this is This is part of that empathy, or this display of empathy, and this display of emotion being seen to tie yourself to the in-group, right? You know, this that survival technique again of saying Look, I am also feeling this, so I'm like you, so we're part of this group of people.

Heidi

It's insane, we are.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, not like that, not all empathy and displays of empathy are like that.

Heidi

Just to be clear, I think not everyone's like out in the street throwing flowers on passing cars just to show that they're feeling things.

Mark

No, but I think that sometimes there are mass events like that. Do yeah, do genuinely trigger this sympathetic response, which is I just remember feeling like, wow.

Heidi

Really?

Mark

Wow, yeah, because she didn't seem to give much of a shit when she was alive.

Heidi

I just thought it was a really strange phenomenon.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And that is not to take anything away from people who genuinely had that experience. I just found it very strange.

Mark

But then where does empathy and grief sort of overlap?

Heidi

Right.

Mark

You know.

Heidi

But then I guess there's that thing of when you go to a funeral you have the memories of all the other funerals you've ever been to and it makes it extra sad. So if you're at a funeral see, here, I do have empathy, right? Okay, here we have fun. Right, okay, here we go. then you'll tell me it's not empathy. But anyway, when I go to a funeral, even if it's someone that I don't know very well, I do get very upset and overwhelmed. Okay. And the first funeral I ever went to was my mum's funeral when I was nineteen.

Mark

And I think that's why. Okay, so you're then there's like echoes of grief. Yeah, yeah.

Heidi

I mean, but people are always like, Oh, you seem very upset I'm like, Yeah, I don't even know his surname. How weird is that? You know.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

I think that people are incredibly complex creatures. Brains are going to brain, right? And our brains will find the way to do the things they want to do and they need to do. And I just think that we can't ever be sure that anyone else is experiencing the world in the same way that we are. Just go on. So maybe that's what empathy is there for, to make us feel like.

Mark

It's the shortcut, isn't it?

Heidi

To make us feel like people are the same as us.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, it was quite interesting to bring it back to the kids and how to to the extent that my kids show it. Sometimes they will try and fake empathy and it's just so jarring.

Heidi

Have you had that with Theo? Mike Wow, give me an example.

Mark

So I don't know if you heard the episode where I talked about Jay stabbing an air tent. So that it we so this we went camping and he was having a horrible time and he was like at absolute meltdown and he kind of the only way that he could get out of it is if the tent was fucked, basically. So he stabbed the air tent and it fucking just deflated and I was very weirdly calm about it, but like mortified and because I knew where it was coming from and you know, um but I was really it was a it was a very harrowing experience for me and sort of sent him away. And he came back to me later on in the day, and I was sort of trying to explain to him why I was so kind of sad about it, because I didn't think he really understood it. And I was like, look, I, you know. India and Otto want to stay, right? And you want to go. And I want to stay because we're with my friends, and I haven't seen my friends in a long time. And, you know, and I don't get out very often. So, and I'm a solo parent now, so I can't look after everyone's needs at the same time, and that's why I feel sad. And he was really sweet and he leaned over to me and he put his hand on my shoulder, right? He's n he's never done this before. He put his hand on my shoulder and he went And he furrowed his brow very seriously and went, I understand what you're saying And it was like and it was really awkward and it wasn't natural but and it was quite funny, but I just understood the significance of what that was. The the fact that he was trying to bridge that gap, that he was almost sort of masking to because he sensed that that's what I needed at that time was huge to me. Like it really it meant a lot to me, even though it was slightly ridiculous because he obviously didn't mean it.

Heidi

Yeah, I so Theo's not a big hugger. He'll hug me. He'll be physically like close to me, but he wears a badge all the time that says, I don't hug. Right?

Mark

Nice.

Heidi

It's on his line yard at uni. And if he meets someone or we spend some time with someone and we're getting to say goodbye, because I'm a hugger and I'll 'cause I don't know, it's just what I've learned, and I don't know, I like a hug Like, when you were singing,

Mark

oh, I don't apologize for it. I love hugs.

Heidi

I'm like, are you a hugger? Walking away slowly. I always ask, I don't just like jump on people and stuff. But, like, if we've spent time with people and we're saying goodbye to people, they're my friends. And we're hanging out with them, and I'll be like giving people hugs. And then you can see Theo like decide who he wants to hug and who he doesn't want to hug. And he'll say goodbye to the people he doesn't want to hug first. And then he'll hug the people he does want to hug. Now, to me, that is him realizing that if he hugs other people and then doesn't hug you, you will feel rejected by that.

Mark

That's definitely empathy, isn't it? Because he's understanding that people feel rejected by that, yeah.

Heidi

I don't want to be a dick about this. I'm not touching them, but I'll say goodbye to them first, right?

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

So, like, you would not necessarily think that Looking at that from the outside, you would think, oh, it's a bit strange. He's hugged half the people and not the other half. But for me, that's empathy. He's understanding that he would hurt someone's feelings potentially by hugging everyone else and not hugging the other person.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

So. It's not so much he's faking empathy, but he's kind of playing the social rules to make his expression of empathy okay. On his terms, basically. Yeah.

Mark

Yeah. So so Otto does this. Sometimes as well, like he is empathetic, he does feel it when people are, you know, upset or hurt themselves sometimes. And so, there's there was one time where Jay was just being awful to me and said something terrible to me and um and he waited till Jay had stormed out of the room and he saw that I was quite upset and he came up to me and went I don't think you're the worst parent in the world, Daddy. And again, he gave me a stiff little hug. It wasn't like it was, but and again, it's just like you've got a he. They are they are empathetic. He gets it. They get it. They just don't, it's not natural. They're not very well practiced at it. Now, India has empathy, like I was talking earlier. But not for humans. For animals.

Heidi

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

My God, she feels like so. We've got a cat. Now our cat is either a brilliant hunter or a complete arsehole, depending on your view, right? Because he will bring he's brought in all kinds to our house. And you know, he's brought in birds and frogs, he brought in a fucking a pigeon. Through the cat flap.

Heidi

Let's throw the curve once.

Mark

A mole. Yeah, all of this, like, you know, it's not great, but India is like off the charts emotional about it and needs to save it. So shows enormous amount of empathy. At one point, she commandeered one of our best Tupperware boxes and wrote bird rescue box on it so that if Loki brought in a bird she could put it in there and keep it safe. And she'd like wake me up at like Four in the morning once with this bird, the bird box going, Loki's got another one, come and rescue it straight away. But if Otto's crying She's like, shut up. Yeah. Stop crying. But for animals, she feels enormous empathy.

Heidi

I think that's a really common experience for neurodivergent people that they feel a greater affinity with animals than they do with human beings. Um, like I see that so often in the families that I'm supporting.

Mark

And why is that? Do you think?

Heidi

I think they're simpler. Humans are complicated.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heidi

And not always very honest. And I think, because our first episode was about honesty, right?

Mark

Yes, it was.

Heidi

Oh, I think that the honesty that you get with animals Like very clear communication. Horses, frig me, they're freaking magical. Like horses are just I've never been a big fan of horses, but I spent some time with some horses. not very long ago, and I was just amazed by like how they just pick up on your energy. Like, I know that sounds really woo, but like no, no, it's not. I believe like I think the thing is with animals, right? This is my Theory, it's probably someone else's, I've probably ripped it off, don't say it's mine. But is that animals are experts in nonverbal communication. Right. And I think that the thing that makes into human communication extra complicated is speech. Because people say completely opposite to what they mean quite often. Whereas animals just show you what they mean.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And I don't mean to like anthropomorphize them or whatever that means.

Mark

No, no, there's a genuine theory that um that A lot of animals show empathy. Like it's not just a human trait, empathy. So elephants will grieve for the herd losing a a baby elephant um and gorillas as well. They and uh and dogs, of course. If if a dog senses that its owner's upset, they will just not leave their side.

Heidi

You know, they'll try and make it better.

Mark

I mean, that's like dogs have compassion as well.

Heidi

That's freaking crazy. So, my son, Theo, has an assistants dog, right? And he's a border terrier. His name is Bertie. And sometimes Bertie will be like unsettled, and Theo will be like, I don't know what's wrong with him. And I'll be like, Are you all right though? And he'll be like, not really.

Mark

Okay, wow.

Heidi

It's like Bertie is like a barometer, an external barometer for Theo's internal workings, and sometimes he doesn't know.

Mark

Yeah. That's what's going on.

Heidi

But Bertie will like picks up on it. Do things that you're like, I can tell from how Bertie is whether Theo's dysregulated or not sometimes. It is absolutely legendary. And Theo's attachment to those animals, to our dog and our cat, and the tortoise, is much more significant than his attachment to me. When I took him back to uni the other day, are you going to miss me? Yes. What are you going to miss the most about home? The cat.

Mark

Yeah, but he can talk to you on the phone, right?

Heidi

Right. But when I'm on the slideshow, he makes me put the video on so you can see the cat.

Mark

Oh, okay. Don't take it personally. One of the interesting things I've kind of realised recently is that despite my kids not really finding it easy to show empathy in the way that neurotypicals would perceive empathy. They do need it.

Heidi

Yeah.

Mark

So this is something that I've touched on previously with Otto. When Jay used to hurt himself, you know, as a toddler and they're running around and they bang their knee or whatever. We always used to sort of we didn't want to make a drama of it. We sort we we would always just sort of laugh it off and then go on. And he he would just get up, brush himself down and he'd run off. Be like, brilliant. We are smashing parenting. Now, Otto would do it and he'd fall over, and we would do the same technique, right? We'd laugh and go, Oh, you had a little bump. Come on, off we go. And he would be inconsolable. He could not get over it and then run off, right? And it took ages for us to realize that what he needed in that moment was validation that what he was feeling was Was valid, right? He needed the empathy. He needed us to go, oh, that must have really hurt. And it was like magic. As soon as he said that, sort of got down and went, Oh, that must have really hurt. Oh, that would have hurt me as well. He instantly just switched to not feeling overwhelmed, understanding it, and it, it. like sped up his recovery so much quicker than just trying to sort of invalidate his feelings and tell him to just run it off.

Heidi

Yeah. Which is so important with neurodivergent kids that we don't do, don't cry, don't make a fuss.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

You know, we mustn't do that.

Mark

No.

Heidi

Because robbing our children of their capacity to let those feelings out in whatever way that comes. and trying to keep them safe during the process really does set them up for if you don't let them do that, it really does like encourage masking and make it increasingly difficult. I can remember when I was like, I don't know, about eight or nine, and I swallowed a pen lid in class, right? And I don't, you're probably not, you're not as old as me, but at the time, there used to be these like It was when the Bic Byroses.

Mark

It was before they got the hole in the end.

Heidi

Well, they got the hole in the end.

Mark

You're the person you're the reason that they put the hole in the end.

Heidi

But they put the h But I swallowed one of these pen lids and it was during the hole we're now putting holes in the top of our lids. So I'd seen these like public information films about, you know Biros will knew half a lid because if your child swallows a penalid, they'll probably die, right? I'm in class, I swallow a pen lid, I'm convinced I'm going to die. Right.

Mark

Okay.

Heidi

I just remember like just the mist descending, and I think it was probably my first public meltdown.

Mark

Right.

Heidi

And it was horrific. Right. On the back of that, until I moved from that school, I was referred to by all of my other classmates as Pen Top. Right.

Mark

They're such dicks, kids.

Heidi

Fucking arseholes. So I remember like the teacher in the moment being like Don't make a fuss, just you know, and they were obviously trying to calm me, but I was like off the wall, freaking out, thinking I was and they and I feel like that is the moment when I learned it wasn't okay to respond. with big feelings because for you to respond with big feelings for me because I got kind of like chastised and shamed by the teacher and then I got called pent up for the next three years. Yeah, which is like that was the first moment where I was like Right, so masking is if that's the way it's going to be now.

Mark

Yeah, so as you're saying, that if we need to treat our neurodifferent kids with With empathy.

Heidi

You'd invalidate their feelings. What you're saying is that they're not. Because I thought I was dying. Someone needed to say to me, I know you think you're dying. I don't think you're dying. Let's take some deep breaths.

Mark

Yes, this must be quite scary for you.

Heidi

You must be terrified.

Mark

It's okay.

Heidi

I'm going to sit with you until you feel less overwhelmed. Instead of stop making a fuss, you're holding everyone up. You're being silly now.

Mark

Yeah, because this is the thing with Otto is again validating those feelings. But sometimes I will say, I'm taking control now. I am now making the decisions. uh that also helps, I think. But yeah, it's it's a really interesting you know, it's it's this gentle parenting thing, isn't it? Right, it's listening to them and validating what they're saying and um yeah, and and it's similar with Jay when he's overwhelmed and he's angry. I had this today, actually, where he lost his shit at me because he just had a really tough day at school. You know, just going back to school now. after the Christmas holidays and he just had a really rough day and a lot, right? Yeah, and and he was about to just blow his top and and I stopped and I went I understand this is too much for you at the moment. I understand that you're really cross. And again, just almost forcing him to look at his own feelings in that moment. So having that moment of empathy with him and going, I get this has been a really hard day for you. And I get that right now you're really overwhelmed and you're in the red zone. And what can we do to de-escalate this? And it did manage to de-escalate. I mean, he did.

Heidi

And especially in meltdown moments, like empathy is really key in those moments, but like hands-off empathy. Right? Like, I know, I get the hint.

Mark

I want to give him a hug, man. One of the things you alluded to earlier.

Heidi

Oh, God, here we go. What did I say?

Mark

A lack of empathy. Looks bad to neurotypicals. It doesn't look great. So I've had situations where Jay has been playing with someone. He's hurt the kid. The kid is on the floor in tears. And Jay's just standing waiting. There's nothing. And it look, it looks terrible. To the other parents, it looks like Jay's just decked this kid. It's not a good look. And because, as you're saying, people think that he's a cold-hearted maniac. Right. And he's not.

Heidi

Maybe he's just showing the empathy that he himself would be trying to work out what to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Just give me some time. I'll get over it and then we'll. come back online, right? I don't know how much thought was that. He was just waiting it out, I think. As he said himself, you know, it's if someone gets shot in the knee, it's not my problem. I mean, in this instance, he was the person holding the shotgun, so it it's

Heidi

But you know, none of us are perfect, right? And I get cross about how we hold neurodivergent kids to so much higher a standard than we do neurotypical kids. and actually neurodivergent adults as well. We're expected to be on our very best behaviour all the time. And if we're not, it's because we're faulty. Do you know what I mean? And we do it to kids. I've seen it in schools, for example. I've been observing children in schools, and I know that the child that I'm observing, for example, is ADHD. And I see That they're in a line of kids waiting to go into a classroom, and a number of children are jiggling, and this child is one of them. But that child is the child that the teacher goes, stand still, because the teacher knows that child is ADHD. So like we expect our children to be exemplary human beings all the time. Fact is, we've already alluded to it. Kids are fucking arseholes. So neurodivergent kids have the capacity for art holery also. Yes. And I'd wager that neurodivergent adults are just the same. People are assholes.

Mark

I mean, it is frustrating when it is your kids showing no empathy to you or just not reading the situation. So we've had like a couple of times. Once Tam came downstairs and overnight there'd been a leak under the kitchen sink and it was the hot water tap. So there was hot water everywhere and Everything was steamed up and it looked like an absolute fucking nightmare. And Tammy's standing in this puddle of water, and Jay walks in, sees the situation and says, Can I have some breakfast? And it's like, you know, Tam is obviously upset and panicking and overwhelmed and like, what the fuck What do I do? How do you stop the hot water? Where's the hot water tap? You know, it's not on in the tap. So where's it coming from? All of that overwhelms going on. And Jay's just like. Where's my breakfast? This complete lack of understanding and empathy for the situation.

Heidi

And it does look bad. Yeah.

Mark

And I think there's another time where Tam told me that they fell down the stairs and phoned me up at the time. I was away and phoned me up at the time and was like, really quite upset and said I've fallen down the stairs. I was like, Okay, well, you know, are you are you all right? And it's like, Yeah, I think I'm all right. But the kids literally just stepped over me. Tam was really upset that the kids basically didn't give a fuck. They just walked around them and then, you know, just got on with their stuff. And so I think in that instance. Tam needed empathy, and Tam knew that I would be the one to give the empathy, right? So he told me on the I need this, and I'm not getting it from any of the fuckers in here. I'm gonna call Mark because make some sad noises down the phone. Yeah, which I did, obviously. Oh, do you want me to do you want me to come there? Obviously not. You know, that wasn't why they phoned.

Heidi

But um I think it yeah, I think the um When I my health wasn't so bad wasn't hasn't been very good, and when I was very unwell, Theo really had to step into things that he hadn't before. Kind of became a young carer for a little while when I was really poorly. My mobility was really impacted, and my chronic fatigue really flared. And he was basically at home with me all the time. And it was interesting to see how that played out because he did much more than he'd ever done, right? And he still does now much more than he's ever done. He messages me During the day, have you had a drink, mum? Have you taken your meds? Have you had something to eat? Right. And he does it because he knows that if he doesn't, I might forget, right? And he never did that before. So he's really stepped into that role. And I know that from conversations I've had with friends who don't have neurodivergent kids, they think that he hasn't really done that much Do you know what I mean? So, like, I think that we have to really check ourselves over our expectations of our children. And we have to meet them where they're at, right? And sometimes I've conversations with parents where they're like, it's really hard because my child doesn't show me that they love me. And like, I get that. It's hard when you have having a moment. I've had it with And I'm just like, you are a selfish little asshole. Like, I'm really upset, and you're just not paying any attention. And you were asking me for a biscuit, for example.

Mark

Like, yeah, yeah.

Heidi

Equally, I'm not doing myself any favors by thinking that that is an indication that he doesn't feel a connection with me. With I have to find. The way to see the way that he does feel a connection with me, yeah, yeah, because it is there and you understand it.

Mark

So, this is this is the thing with Jay is that he wouldn't show if I'm ill. He's the worst. He's just so bad. Like, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't, he doesn't care for me. So, it, but you, so him, as I've talked about in a previous episode, him sharing his special interest. Is the thing, right? The thing that's precious, and he's sharing it with me. That's the affection there. And it's just, I'm not going to get it in conventional means.

Heidi

That's the connection, right? And like, and like with With Theo, like him, things that he does for me, which I mean, maybe we'll touch on this a bit, but like the little things that don't seem like a big deal. And other people think, well, of course he should do that. He's twenty years old. But what they don't know or don't remember is that for two years he didn't leave his bedroom So the fact that he is able to remember what at university, for God's sake, to text his mum and say, Have you taken your medication? That's a big deal. That's huge. Yeah, of course.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's accepting

Heidi

Right.

Mark

So that empathy definitely is there.

Heidi

Meeting them where they're at, right?

Mark

Yeah, I know, that's amazing. Yeah, I think I said to India as well, I've because I've been really ill over Christmas. It's been really annoying. Like, I was like, I'm going to take a month off Neuroshambles just to give myself a break and get through Christmas. And then. I was just fucking completely wiped out.

Heidi

And your body was like, oh.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. So I've been riddled with a rolling grot for ages. And um at one point I I went into the living room and I think I just went Oh, I just feel really ill and India went, You've mentioned that five hundred times. I've been keeping count It's like, all right, I'll go to a different room, choose some empathy there I've got no one. I've got no one in this house that gives me any empathy in the way that I need it. That's hard, I think, as a little floating neurotypical, alleged neurotypical in a sea of neurodivergency. You know what we need? Some kind of empathy hotline. So I could just phone up and go, Look, here's the thing, and then, oh, that must be really awful.

Heidi

That must be all really that's basically what therapy is, isn't it? Isn't that what my therapist is for? I think though as well, like It is difficult because you're solo parenting and I'm solo parenting. When the only other humans in the house are small humans, including children. You're not going to get your emotional needs met. Like, that's not the deal, right?

Mark

Yeah, I'll be honest, I wasn't getting them met when Tam was in the house either.

Heidi

Well, yes, ex for a reason. But also, I do think that. we have to be honest with ourselves about that. We're going to have to find another way for that need to be met. Otherwise, what are we doing? Making these crazy, like enmeshed, codependent relationships. Well, and I am getting better at that now, actually.

Mark

That's that's good. You know, I do have friends, like you were saying, finding the friends that are gonna You know, hold that space for you. They're going to be able to listen to you, kind of needing that empathy and give you that empathy.

Heidi

And I think it's really important that we are able to be honest with ourselves about When our needs aren't getting met.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, so we're going to look at the positives now. So I think we've. safely put to bed the the theory that neurodivergents don't feel empathy.

Heidi

Yeah, it's bullshit.

Mark

It is, essentially.

Heidi

So now we could have saved ourselves a good hour if you'd just gone, Yeah, you're right, Heidi.

Mark

You're back in the original episode we discussed. Just if I just believed you. Not what podcasts are about, right? No, but I think it's interesting to look at because it's really made me reflect on so many things and and understand a lot more about empathy and how my kids perceive and interpret empathy.

Heidi

It was helpful for me too. It kind of made me challenge because I've been saying that forever. Like, not forever. But when you were like, hmm, what did you mean by that? I thought, well, I know what I meant originally. I'm going to have to really work out what I mean by that because it's a bit of a shortcut.

Mark

Yeah. So, like, let's not talk about that.

Heidi

Let's talk about something more interesting. Yeah, but actually it turns out this is interesting.

Mark

It's so much more nuanced than I think I kind of initially understood. And if we're looking at the positives Firstly, the the positive is that when neurodivergents talk to neurodivergents, they show the same level of empathy as neurotypicals talking to neurotypicals, which is Really interesting because they just talk in the same language, essentially.

Heidi

And thank God. Thank God that that's true, because it can be really isolating being neurodivergent. And when you find your other people who are who speak the same language and the same terms of reference as you do. My God, it's so affirming.

Mark

So God, that's true. So that's a huge positive. Another one is that actually having a lack of emotional empathy in certain situations Is absolutely needed in a crisis, right? Like, this is why they say that neurodivergence in a crisis are amazing because they cut out the fucking drama and the emotion. Like, right, what's needed right now? You know, because if someone's been shot and they're on the floor in Jay situation, no one needs you getting down on the floor and going, Oh, that must really hurt. I really understand that.

Heidi

I couldn't do my job. If I had high levels, permanently high levels of cognitive and emotional empathy switched on all the time, I would be an absolute wreck. I couldn't do my job. Because you'd be taking on everyone else's shit, right? Doesn't mean I don't care. Doesn't mean it's capable of empathy. But yeah, there's power in being able to tap into it and tap out of it. If that is even a cognitive thing, I don't know if it is a thing that I do consciously, but I definitely do have that capacity.

Mark

Yeah, and certain jobs would would need that, but a huge amount of jobs I'm sure absolutely don't want you to To be like that, you know.

Heidi

And I'd be a terrible, I'd have a terrible bedside manner if I was a doctor, or I'd be an awful social worker.

Mark

That's just know your lane.

Heidi

Yeah, right.

Mark

Stay in your lane.

Heidi

Right.

Mark

You know, prison guard.

Heidi

Yeah. I did go out with a prison guard though. He did not have any empathy, but that was not because he was autistic, he was an arsehole.

Mark

That's a fine line. It's such a fine line. So there are positives, I think, is the upshot of this. And actually, it's just understanding how different people respond in different situations and have different emotional and empathetic needs.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity Champions.

Mark

Okay, so we've got Neurodiversity Champions now. Heidi, do you have any neurodiversity champions for us?

Heidi

Oh, I have, and it's one that I've been waiting to talk about for a long time.

Mark

Okay, good.

Heidi

Because a friend of mine has written a book under a pseudonym. Her pseudonym is Charlotte Gale. And her book is out at the end of January, and it's called I Didn't See You There. And it's a book of poetry and prose. Most of which was written sat outside the bathroom on her phone because she has a young person in her home who is in extreme. Crisis has O C D and is autistic. She has two young people in her home. And when I wrote my book, she gave me a poem to publish in the book. Which I absolutely adored. And then since then, she's continued writing. So she's written this book. It's called I Didn't See You There, and it's a collection of poetry. But there's also little snippets which you will love. There's like little bits in the middle of the text where they're just things hilarious things that our kids have said. Like there's two lovely poems, and then on the page in between it just says in great big text with like Quotation marks, massive vagina. And it's just beautiful, right? And it's a really lovely collection of poems. And I have never felt so seen reading someone else's poems.

Mark

Oh, well, okay. Amazing.

Heidi

it really captures like the challenge of raising neurodivergent kids, the challenge of worrying about a neurodivergent child with mental health challenges the challenges of your own mental health as a parent, but also the hilarity of living in a house that does things differently.

Mark

But also, I guess, knowing that it was written when they were kind of sitting outside the bathroom in those moments of Crisis and just trying to kind of sow some seeds of positivity and light in the mindset.

Heidi

And also just filling the time whilst their young person was in the bathroom doing their rituals.

Mark

So, like.

Heidi

Yeah, so I it's a beautiful like I really they've been a great friend to me as well, but I just love that they've captured this snapshot of their lives and that they've been able to really Like not that you have to do something productive with trauma, you don't. Like it's okay to just have trauma.

Mark

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Heidi

But also that I just think there's so much value in what they've written. So the book is called I Didn't See You There and it's by Charlotte Gale and I'll be shouting about it all over my socials.

Mark

And that's out in the end of January.

Heidi

The end of January.

Mark

Okay, it's not available for sale now, but I'll make sure I update the link so that when it's out. Can get to it.

Heidi

And also, like, I think it's just really important that we support other neurodivergent parents with their creative endeavors.

Mark

Yeah, totally.

Heidi

Hard to be making things when you're in the mire of it. It really fucking is.

Mark

Right?

Heidi

You know this. So um I would really like to see people get behind the book and support Charlotte and buy her poetry.

Mark

Yeah, great. No, thanks. That's a good shout. I've got a new adversity champion, and this is something that isn't actually new at all. Yours is like really current. Mine's actually quite old, but I've only just found out about it. Is that, did you know that Sesame Street introduced an autistic character? I mean, Sesame Street is as autistic as fuck, anyway. Oh, there's all kinds of different neurotypes that play there.

Heidi

Yeah, yeah. I think I remember seeing something about this like back end of last year, actually.

Mark

Yeah, but this was back in twenty seventeen. But obviously, I haven't been watching Cesari Street for a a a long time 'cause my kids don't like the Muppets or or yeah, I I tried and I think you could sell them and get new children. I think I've tried too hard and now it's Like you know, PDA has kicked in and it's never gonna settle. But yeah, I saw a clip of it recently on the socials and I was like, this is amazing. You know, it's um, there's a character in it called Julia. she's autistic and nonverbal and they explain why she doesn't respond to people calling her name and why she's stimming and why she doesn't talk and it's like just open and like so compassionately done and so sort of clearly done because it's for kids obviously and it was just like I just watched it and it was like oh man that's that yeah that was wonderful And I think so. Shout out to Sesame Street for that.

Heidi

We've got to Sesame Street.

Mark

Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes to that clip if I can find it as well.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Tiny epic wins now, which are the moments where parents of neurotypical kids would probably just shrug and move on with their day, but the moments where we're just like, that's amazing. That's a massive epic win for people in our situation. So. Have you got any tiny epic wins Heidi?

Heidi

I feel like we've had like pretty big epic wins in the past six months because you know like Theo's now gone to university, which we just never thought would happen. But over Christmas, he was home for Christmas and New Year, and I took him back yesterday. And yesterday morning, I knew that we had to get up early and they had to park and get, you know, because they didn't do that. prepacking thing. Um they waited until morning to pack. And I knew that he had to park and he had to walk the dog and he had to clean out the tortoise and there was lots of things that had to be done before he left. And my alarm went off and I was just lounging about in bed scrolling the socials and A WhatsApp popped up and it said, Your breakfast is ready. And he'd made me breakfast. Oh, which Isn't amaz I mean, it wasn't like, don't get me wrong, it wasn't a full spread, but it was a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea. That's yeah, that's incredible. Other people might not think that's a big deal. But I mean, I think it is a big deal. If a teenage boy makes you breakfast, I think that's a big deal. Um, but yeah, like the fact that in amongst all of the craziness of everything, he had a moment when he thought I'll make my mum some breakfast. I thought that was really sweet.

Mark

Yeah, that's really sweet.

Heidi

Pretty big.

Mark

Yeah, that is a nice one. Um, I've got a tiny and pick wig. What, Christmas? Just getting through Christmas. Oh, God. I think everyone listening to Neuroshambles should permit themselves a tiny epic win if you got through Christmas and you'll Still here. If you still know your name. If you're still listening to this, because it is it's full on. It's it's been pretty overwhelming. But I think we navigated it pretty well. Like Christmas Day was, you know, there was a lot going on and at various points both Jay and India said it's a bit much. It's been a bit much today, which which, um, you know, I get. But then we just had basically two days of staying in the house. And just re-regulating and just being in our own space. And then we were a lot more sociable after that. And it was like, I think we navigated our way through Christmas. In a tolerable way, and I'll take that.

Heidi

You know, but we did it our own way and it works.

Mark

And you know what, I'll as well, though.

Heidi

I think we sometimes forget that the fact that we've got neurodivergent children who can articulate. This is a lot for me. Like, that's a big deal.

Mark

Yeah, right?

Heidi

Like, having kids who know that about themselves and feel safe to say that. that will set them up well for adulthood. Do you know what I mean? Like because from being from the generation that I was, that you just didn't speak up when you felt uncomfortable, you know? You will kiss grandma, you know. That's a win too, right? That you've got kids who can go, ooh.

Mark

It is. Yeah. I mean, it was at the end of the day once it all had all happened. But even so, they are, you know, advocating for themselves. And it also meant that I could then say, Well, tomorrow we're going nowhere. We're staying here and we're going to hang out and we'll play with your new stuff. You know, we're just going to hang out. And that was a win. I think we all got through it. We all got through it well, I think.

Heidi

Unscathed. Even without the Muppet Christmas Carol, I mean, I'm impressed. I don't know.

Mark

I'm, you know, I'm gutted.

Heidi

But I don't know how you would do Christmas without Muppet Christmas Carol. They're just they're not on board with it.

Mark

Wow, I'm gonna have to watch it on my own.

Heidi

We'll have a watch party next week, yeah.

Mark

Totally, I'm up for that. I'm definitely up for that.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, some what the flip moments now. These are the moments where, as a parent of neurodiverted kids, they will say or do something that will completely confound you. And I get regular moments. With my kids. One was Jay, where just from nowhere, you know, sometimes they just say something that makes them sound really fucking old. Yes. So, Jay. Came out with back in my day, they used to have loads of cafes outside back in my day, you're eleven fuck's sake. It was just like where was this world where it was just like littered with cafes outside?

Heidi

I've got visions of him outside on a Parisian pavement with a cigarette holder and a beret.

Mark

And a moustache.

Heidi

He would always have a moustache. He really wants a moustache.

Mark

Yeah, totally. That would definitely fit. I got one from India as well the other day. She went, These potatoes are disgusting. But I know you can turn it around next time. It's like, great. That was like a, you know, a massive criticism. And, you know, she still has faith in me. It's uplifting at the same time.

Heidi

That's amazing.

Mark

This What the Flip Moment is one that Jay said to me, and I was waiting for the right episode to talk about it, but I think it fits in with this one because it's about the complete lack of empathy. And a lack of understanding of how what he says is going to be perceived, right? Once I was I was sitting there and he went, I love you And I was like, Did you mean that, Jay? And he went, No And I went, Ah, too late, you can't take it back now. And then he said Someone sounds like they're desperate for affection. Is that why mummy broke up with you? And I was just like, ah. Fucking hell. This is like, he obviously has no idea.

Heidi

Hello, is that the empathy helpline?

Mark

Yeah, that's when I'd need it, yeah. No, it was one of those ones that was like, oh, just to be clear, it was the separation was mutual, but his perception of it was that. That I was just too emotionally needy, which is probably true in my household, but fucking hell, that was one of, you know, that was one that cut deep. Yeah.

Heidi

He said to me not very long ago. I think my dad thinks you've got Munchausen by proxy and then just walked off.

Mark

Just drop that on the room.

Heidi

Okay. Did I tell you last time about the pole dancing?

Mark

No.

Heidi

This was a what the flip from when he was much younger. Okay, he would have been about seven or eight, and he used to go to clubs In the local church hall, and the church hall was closed for the election. You know, like it was like a polling station.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

And I used to work in cabaret, and I used to work with burlesque performers and pole performers and like a lot of the people that I hung out with were strippers. And so he knew lots of people who were in that world. And we had a friend who was a pole dancer, and she is an incredible pole dancer. But we used to just hang out with them and, you know, like I didn't take him to shows, that wouldn't have been appropriate. But he knew that I had friends who worked in that field. So we go to Scouts, well, Cubs. And outside there's a big sign, you know, the big white sign with the big black le black letters that says Polling Station.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

You can see where this is going. And we're waiting to go in. And he says, Oh, mum, is this where insert name of my friend does pole dancing? And I'm like, No, no. And he goes, It says polling station. I thought it might be like So and so does pole dancing. And I go to the mum's oh, he doesn't he doesn't know what that is, really. He goes, I do, I do. She does it in a bra and knickers and then she takes the bra off

Mark

Oh, man.

Heidi

You know, when you're like, I'm trying to like appear respectable.

Mark

Yeah.

Heidi

I'm on the PTA. No one knows I move in these circles. I'm not ashamed.

Mark

Like, but equally, we just moved quite like to not involve social services.

Heidi

And it was the first time when I thought, oh, I might need to have a conversation with him about inside conversation.

Mark

Okay, so that is it for this episode of Neuroshambles. Firstly, Heidi, thank you so much for coming back and lifting the lid on empathy and all its myriad forms.

Heidi

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Sorry about all the swears. No, no. It's a heavy edit, isn't it?

Mark

No, no, no. I leave the swears in. They're authentic. They're authentically you. I'm not going to cancel you, Heidi. I also want to say a massive thank you to the audience for listening. Thanks for coming back and for bearing with me during my hiatus over Christmas and the new year. Please check us out on the socials, we are on Instagram. and Facebook and Threads and TikTok now. I'm doing a fair amount of TikTok stuff as well, which is very different to anything else. I thought I'd just release some sort of clips from the shows and put it on there and it would like go viral. No one gives a shit about the podcast clips. They just want me talking about my crazy Christmas trees and just shit that's happening to me in my daily life. So I'm over there doing that at the moment.

Heidi

Oh, they want me trying on an all-in-one thing that I decided to wear under a dress without a bra on. Forty two thousand views that has had. It's just telling me to put a bra on in the comments.

Mark

It's all engagement.

Heidi

You're going to find me on TikTok, you're welcome in advance.

Mark

So yeah, check us out on the socials. And also, if you want to leave a review for the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please do. And that that would all be Always be gratefully received. That's it, I think, for this episode. Thank you so much for being here, and all that remains for me to say is have a nice life.