Conversation | Kieran Rose

TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello, and welcome to episode 22 of Neuroshambles. Firstly, let me start by saying a massive thank you to everyone for your kind messages from the last episode. I mean, I'd taken two months off. I was sort of expecting to come back and go, Hey guys, and no one would be here you know, you may well have just sort of got interested in something else and moved on. But fortunately, it seems like lots of people still listen to it, so that's an absolute pleasure. We've got another absolutely cracking episode lined up for you, where I'll be meeting a new guest who's a genuine inspiration. We're talking about a new topic of the week, and we'll also be discussing Neurodiversity Champions. tiny epic wins, and, of course, those what the flip moments. So I'm going to stop talking and we'll get started.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So my guest this week is someone that I've been following on social media for quite a while now, and I've been trying to get him on the show for Probably about six, seven months. He is otherwise known as the Autistic Advocate, and he's an author, an academic. public speaker, a trainer, a consultant. He's basically a polymath in the world of autistic advocacy. And I'm delighted to finally be able to welcome onto the podcast. It is the wonderful Kieran Rose. How you doing, Kieran?

Kieran

I'm doing really well, Mark. Thank you very much for having me. And apologies, it's taken so long. As you just described, I get incredibly busy sometimes. I know, I know.

Mark

And also, when you're working in the world of Of kind of neurodivergency as well. I can't, you know, I can't be a dick about it. You know, everyone's got their own way of doing things. I can't, you know, I can't be like offended by it. I just sort of Put the feelers out there and hope that someone is intrigued enough to come back to me. So, yeah, it's fully understandable.

Kieran

Yeah, yeah. I'm a great believer that things happen when they're meant to happen. So Things happen, and when they do, they're usually quite good.

Mark

I don't put any pressure on this particular episode, but yeah, okay. I'm feeling good about it So obviously, when we welcome any guests to NeuroShambles, it's really important to know your setup and what neurodivergencies you have at play at your end. So what are you dealing with there, Kieran?

Kieran

Well, for me personally, I'm autistic. I am probably ADHD, but I'm very undiagnosed. I have hypermobile Ellis Dannos syndrome. You know, if we were going to go through a list of co-occurring conditions, I'd probably knock off about twenty or thirty of them. And then I've got three autistic children as well.

Mark

Right, okay.

Kieran

And an autistic wife. So there's lots of stuff going on in our household. So what what age are the children? My youngest is eleven, my middle one is going to be fourteen next week, and my eldest is fifteen.

Mark

Okay. And all diagnose tests. All got their badges and their certificates and the rubber stamping.

Kieran

Exactly.

Mark

Awesome. Thanks for introducing your setup. Let's crack on. There's loads to talk about in this one. I'm genuinely excited to kind of really get under the bonnet of this one because there's a lot at play here. So yeah, let's have a look at the topic of the week.

Kieran

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So this week's topic is something that I've touched on very briefly in quite a few previous episodes, but I wanted to take a deeper dive into it because it is so often a source of frustration and miscommunication in my own neuroshambolic household. And I'm sure in many other people's households. And that is the subject of conversation. Because I think conversation presents a really clear illustration of the disconnect that can sometimes happen between neurotypicals and neurodivergence and the different expect And the different sort of set of rules and conditions that are at play there when just having a conversation. So I wanted to look at it in a little bit more detail and understand what's going on. And obviously, you know, you've you've done quite a lot of research into this kind of thing as well, haven't you, Kieran? And you you I I listened to you do your interview uh on Neurodive and I was really interested in what you had to say about it. So I thought you'd be the perfect guest to bring on and talk about it. Um obviously your household though is fully neurodivergent. So you don't have the um the fly in the ointment essentially, which is the neuro the neurotypical. Just go, why does no one understand me?

Kieran

I mean, we don't have the neurotypical problem as such, but we definitely have. The clashing communication needs of five multiply neurodivergent people living in the same household.

Mark

So that's slightly different, but yeah, it's still communication barriers are still a thing. Obviously, I feel, as you say, the neurotypical problem. I do I do feel a little bit like that in my household because I'd have different expectations of conversations and that's you know that's that's a tricky thing to navigate when no one else really plays by the same rules nor should they you know it's just it it's just kind of understanding how it all pieces together And I think one of the constant frustrations I get, and I don't know if you get this as well, is the amount of times I'm interrupted. On a daily basis, it's insane. I cannot finish a conversation without one of my children just barging in. Do you have that as well?

Kieran

Yeah. There's a strong prevalence of ADHD in our household as well.

So, yeah, so there's there's constant kind of people talking over each other, people interjecting, and you know, trying to frame a thought and get it out of your mouth is is difficult enough at the best of times. Um, but then you've got two or three other people who are trying to frame their thoughts and get them in as well. So yeah, it can be it can be it can be hard sometimes. So yeah, that that that level of interruption I have found difficult not so much in the last few years. I've kind of gotten used to it, I think, as my children have gotten older and stuff. But you know, I look at it as they've They've got something equally important to say, so why should I hog the limelight?

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. Also, they are essentially riding roughshod over everything you're saying, you know. Like I appreciate their desire to get their point across. And it's interesting that you say that ADHD is, you know, it is a driver of it, isn't it? It's that impulsivity. They can't hold it in. But then you've also got that little autistic blend of not really knowing when they're allowed to speak in this conversation as well. So it really is kind of worse, I think. When I'm out and about, right? If I'm with my kids, any of my kids, and I meet someone in the street, that will not do in their world. They cannot accept that. They hate it. Because the They don't just stay still and wait for me to have a conversation. I remember being at my parents and they'd have a chat to people in the studio. You know, oh God, he's speaking to someone else. My dad knows everyone in in our hometown, so it was it took like about an hour to get from one end of the high street to the other, right? But I'd have to wait My kids cannot do that. They can't tolerate it. So, you know, Jay would just be like, ah, you know, flopping about and making noises. And then he would just come out of it and say, come on, daddy, let's go. And at that point, There's no sort of going, oh, just give me a few more minutes or anything like that. It's like, right, no, okay.

Kieran

This is like, we are done now.

Mark

India is quite similar to Jay in. This happened literally yesterday. I was out. I took India out. There was like a bit of a street fair going on. And I bumped into someone that I knew and I hadn't seen all summer. I've been quite isolated this summer holidays because, you know. Neurodivergent kids not really getting out there and playing that much, and you know, I'm also solo parenting, so I can't really go out with everyone very easily. So I've been sort of like isolated. And then I saw someone I hadn't seen in ages. And I was like, oh man, it's really nice to have an adult conversation. And I started this conversation and India was just Literally started dragging me away, and then she went, That's enough blibber blabber for one day. I love that. She's rationing my blibber blabber, and I've now reached my limit. And like, fortunately, my friend also has a neurodivergent daughter, so gets it. But it was a bit, I felt a bit Ashamed of my uh my conversation.

Kieran

Do you know what your first mistake was there? It was it was having people to talk to. I know so so if I walk down the street, nobody talks to me and I don't talk to anybody else.

Mark

Okay, yeah, so it's uh

Kieran

And that's not to say that I don't have friends, but I think part of the problem there probably is, in a weird sort of way, you've married into a completely different culture. to yours, you know, so where there's different cultural expectations, different norms, and you are the minority within your household, aren't you? So it's a really it's a really My wife said this for years. My wife always considered herself the neurotypical one. Okay. And it took her, it took her a very, very long time to realize that She was probably the most neurodivergent out of all of us.

Mark

Okay, just high mask.

Kieran

Yeah, well, yeah. And so, so she was always the minority in our household, or she perceived herself to be, and then it got to the point where she realized. Actually no she wasn't.

Mark

She was one of us she was just in very deep denial about it. So you're not encumbered by this this Particular issue, though, because it is the thing that drives me crazy. Because it's not, it's either they'll just drag me away, or they'll just say, Come on, now this is boring. which which also happens. Or they'll just fuck off. I don't know. Like they'll just walk off into the into the distance and they'll be like, This is now dangerously far away from my children. It was like they were it was okay when they were like I could run and catch them, but now I've got to get a bus. It's like, yeah, I need to get involved in the parenting.

Kieran

So, yeah, so this is the end, and this has never been right because I've always been the one walking off. Okay, yeah, or the one going in the background kind of thing because Michelle was always the one, like, like, if we went to Tesco's or somewhere, like, it would take three hours to get around Tesco's because she'd be stopping and talking to someone every And we live in a very small town that she grew up in where she knows everybody and everybody knows her. Um and so we just kind of stopped going out with her.

Mark

Just let her run wild. Just let her wild.

Kieran

If you want to go and talk to people, off you go, kind of thing. You know, we'll go and do our thing over here and you do that.

Mark

Maybe the shopping list, we'll do that. And then you just have a chat. We just get it delivered now. Yeah, definitely.

Kieran

Just cut that problem off of the neck, you know?

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Kieran

But it's also, I think, something that as they get older, and as you get older, and as you Age and evolve together. I don't know how old your children are. But it does, it does the dynamic changes, and I think you all takes years sometimes for you all to start. Locking together and walking in step with each other. Yes. So, you know, so and especially when you've got a lot of things going on at home, or, you know, or maybe there's school issues and things like that, that can just. Impact that dynamic in all sorts of ways. And walking in step with each other is something that can happen.

Mark

I live to see that day, Kieran. So my oldest is 11, so same as your youngest. And then they've got a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old. So they're still at that age where it's sort of, you know, there's a lot going on there.

Kieran

There's a lot of high demand there, isn't there?

Mark

There is. There is. It's not just in the street and being out and about that where the interruptions happen. It's worse at home because this is their space as well, right? That was a huge difficulty, I think, with Tam and I was that we could never complete a conversation. will constantly be interrupted. And there's that feeling that what we're saying is just not important. Because what an adult has to say is of very little value to my kids. You know? It's just blibber blabber to to kept to paraphrase my daughter. It doesn't mean anything. It's not it because they don't see that actually there there's a value in what we're saying and what we're talking about. It's actually really important, you know. Just like practicalities, like Feeding you and clothing you and shit like that, right? It's not, we're not, we're very rarely just having a chat for fun because there's a lot of admin in our household, but it was very often Otto who's my middle. child and he's AD he's autistic ADHD but but ADHD is very that one comes to the fore I think with him a lot so he will He can't wait for us to finish anything. So he'll jump in. And we've tried, we've tried really hard to train him a little bit and to say, yeah, we're just talking at the moment. That's one of the things that we say more often than anything else in our household. It's like, we're just having a conversation, just wait a second. So he'll wait, but obviously I've said a second. That's a problem because he thinks it's literally a second. That's my fault. That's on me, not on him. So he'll jump back in and be like, okay, no, just wait like 10 seconds. We've just got to finish this conversation. And then he'll jump in again. And then the conversation becomes about finding him something to do so he so we can finish our conversation because he needs constant interaction and he needs constant attention. And if we're both having a conversation with each other, the two people that can give him that attention are now occupied with each other. So we have to scaffold it, give him something to do. But then It becomes about that, and we get embroiled in, like, I don't want to read a book. Okay, well, what about this? And then that happens, and eventually that all finishes. You settle down and you come back to the conversation. Completely forget what the fuck you were talking about. I don't know. It was felt really important. And now, I don't know. Let's just go and hang out with Otto instead. That happens a lot.

Kieran

It used to yeah, it used to that used to happen less less so now. I think again because maybe because mine are older that need for attention isn't there because they've got Xboxes and things yeah they've got they've got friends they can yell at and uh over the internet and uh That urgent impulse isn't kind of there so much now. But definitely when they were younger, that was that was a thing for us. And I think what you just described there, I think we quickly re made the realization that By the time you've gone through the four thousand things that the child could be distracted by while you finish your conversation, you might as well have listened to them. So yeah, it's true. Well, one other thing that we do we still do this quite often actually, because it's kind of My kids have a tendency to my oldest particularly to info dump about things that he finds incredibly interesting. And when I've got the time, the headspace, I find them interesting as well. But a lot of the time, I'm occupied with my own need to info dump and things to talk about. So, um, you know, or if I'm working or it's not an appropriate time to kind of sit and listen to someone go on for two and a half hours about maps in Eastern Europe between seventeen seventy three and eighteen twenty two, you know? And so uh so and that is a thing.

Mark

There's a time in a place though, isn't there?

Kieran

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kieran

There's a time.

And th there's a time when I'm happy to kind of listen to that stuff.

Kieran

But there's a time when I can't. So, what I've always kind of said to my kids is: if I haven't got the capacity to listen now, is I don't want to invalidate you, but I can't listen to this right now because I haven't got the time.

Go away and do a voice recording, go away and write it down until you know.

Kieran

So, and but but you have to listen to it. That's that's the thing. You can't Tell them to do that and then pretend that you've listened to it.

Mark

You actually have to listen, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kieran

But you can do it on double, you can do it on double speed or triple speed or whatever, so you get the gist of what they're saying.

Mark

But um, but then they go away feeling validated.

Kieran

And also then you get to carry on doing what you're doing.

Mark

I genuinely love that idea.

That's a big J thing. And so he's a bit older and info dumping is You know, it's really important to him. He needs to just get it out, and he'll just interject and start talking at us, regardless of whether we want to or not. And he won't really be swayed by us saying we're talking because he'd be like, oh, that's just boring and then he'll just plow on. It's is it's basically conversational carjacking. You know, he's just jumped in, he's taken the wheel.

We got no option to show along for the right.

Kieran

Yeah, exactly.

Mark

It was our own fault. So yeah, it's absolute madness. But I do sometimes say, look, I can't listen to you at the moment because I'm really busy. I'm doing lots of things at the moment. I can't listen, and he'll just go, I don't care. You don't need to listen. I just need to get it out. Which I love. It's just like he's so honest about it. And he'll just, he'll just keep going. You just leave it on in the background. That's the thing.

Kieran

I mean, you know, that's a really lovely thing that he can say that to you because I think what we often do is think that that person's looking for attention, and often they're not, they're often just looking for acknowledgement.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. One of the interesting things that's crept into our household is selective mutism, which happens quite a lot with India at the moment when she's overwhelmed, when it's too much. And that hasn't happened until relatively recently. I think India is unmasking a little bit more now and understanding a bit more about herself. When she gets frustrated, which she does quite a lot in her house, it's quite a frustrating household when she's not being listened to, or she's being talked over, or someone has just done something mean and not really thought about her feelings. She's got this really burning sense of injustice. And it consumes her and she just goes inwardly like really furious and then she'll just stop talking. And just seethes with rage, and it's really difficult. It's so hard for me because I, you know, like, talk about it. What's going on? I want to be a problem solver, right? It's just in my nature. I want to fix problems. And so, if she's having a tough time, I just thought, what can I do to make it better? But she can't communicate. And it's really hard to take. Do you have Any of that in your household? Any sort of yeah, okay.

Kieran

That's that's that's me.

Mark

Okay, right, right.

Kieran

So I have well I don't know a single autistic person that doesn't have a really complicated relationship with speech. And even those of us that are very good speakers I mean, I speak for a living. Huge part of my job, but speech is also really exhausting for me, yeah, and really complicated. I have to think incredibly quickly about what I'm going to say. So I'm cognitively thinking about what's going to come out of my mouth before I say it. So that's that's happening at real high speed. Which is, you don't always have the time to do that.

And especially when you've got other sensory inputs coming in, or you've got emotional stuff going on. Which is where the frustration comes in, yeah.

Kieran

So there's a there's a kind of distinction between what's called autistic verbal shutdown and situational or selective mutism it's called situational mutism. Now that's kind of Selective sounds like you're choosing to do it, which you're really not, you know?

Mark

Yeah, okay. Thanks for correcting that.

Kieran

So so it's more of a contextual thing. So what verbal shutdown is, is where you know, you're in a situation where you're feeling anxiety, whether that's because you're angry or you're sad or you're scared or whatever, or you're even happy. And you have no thoughts in your head because that whirling kind of thing just whirls so fast you can't latch onto anything, and it's like there's nothing there.

It's just a blur.

Kieran

So nothing comes out of your mouth because you've got nothing in your brain to send to your mouth. And then there's situational mutism, which is slightly different, same anxiety kind of driven thing, but you know what you want to say But quite similarly to there's a co-occurring condition which is part of the dyspraxia family, which is called apraxia of speech, which is where the messages from your brain go to your mouth and you can't Form the things that you want to say, which is why there are lots of non-speaking autistic people.

Apraxia of speech is a part of that.

Kieran

So there's a physical and a kind of neurological component to that. Situational mutism is quite similar because there's a physical component to it. Whereby you know what you want to say, the words get sent here, but it's almost like someone stuck a big cork down your throat. You're stuck. Okay, so there's that Physical, you know, like when you watch something sad and you get that lump in your throat, it's almost like akin to that kind of sensation.

Mark

This is what happens in India. Did she talk through a closed mouth? And like in a really strained way, almost like an animal noise. It's painful kind of thing. And so, like, I can't really, I can just about understand. the it's almost grunting. It's it's heartbreaking 'cause you know, I know that she's overwhelmed and you know, I'd want to try and try and help the situation. But that's really interesting to understand a little bit more about where that's coming from.

Kieran

So it does sound like she's forming the thought. She knows what she wants to say, but it's kind of stuck. So that's when facilitating other forms of communication become really important. So if she's good at Texting, or an AAC app, or drawing, or writing, even a blackboard and a chalk, you know, anything that can help her communicate in that kind of moment would be really, really beneficial to her. My youngest and I have spent years doing hieroglyph. We've got our own kind of like hieroglyphic hieroglyph language that we kind of use of each other. And we have since they were very, very small because they're very similar to me in that, you know, they don't speak. I speak a lot when I'm talking about autism because it's like this is my thing and I talk about it all but when I'm not talking about autism I don't speak much.

Mark

Okay.

Kieran

And actually our our whole household is like we communicate through text a lot of the time. You know, speaking is when you need something bang in the immediacy. If you don't need something immediate then or you're not info dumping at someone, then text messaging is the way forward.

Mark

This is a thing that Tam and I discovered. When we were going for quite a tricky time and we were trying to kind of have conversations about what was going on, Tam would just sat down because Tam wasn't able to deal with my emotions. And so would just shut down. And we found that texting was incredible. If I texted something, Tam would respond immediately. straight away and really clearly as well. So we just we sort of evolved into this, you know, which I mean, to outsiders probably looked like It was really frosty. I was like, no, this is actually really helpful that I'm able to kind of say what I want, and you know, from my viewpoint, dispassionately. Because it's just text form. And then Tam could interpret that without going, oh no, he's cross or he's frowning or he's grumpy or whatever, and then not being able to actually just listen to what I'm saying. and responds. It's really interesting.

Kieran

Yeah, it takes it takes if you think about kind of like even now having this conversation, obviously we're able to see each other. I mean, I'm not looking at you much. I can see you out of the corner of my eye. I never look at the person. But it's, you know, like, our brains are attuned to looking, not only listening to verbal spoken communication, but. cluing into body language and the emotional energy that's going on, which is a lot harder over Zoom when you're in the room, it's a lot bigger. So and then there's all the kind of the social things about kind of like what's my body doing and how are they interpreting what I'm saying and and all of that builds up and up and up which all gets taken away if you just talk talking to other in text.

Mark

Yeah.

Kieran

You know, and that that's why so many neurodivergent kids have much better social communication with other kids. Another people when they're online, or if they're on social media, or whatever, because it just takes away all of the social anxiety.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. from India's perspective as well, just going back to the the situational mutism side of things, it was actually really handy when it came to her diagnosis. So she's on the diagnosis pathway at the moment, like obviously autistic. We know.

We know.

Mark

But she's, you know, she's now on the on the long waiting list for the kind of stage two. but when she went in for the stage one, she walked in and uh completely ignored the person who was sitting there. And she went, Oh, hello, can you tell me your name? And India just shrugged and walked off. Didn't say a fucking word, just shrugged and walked off. It's like, yeah. So it's like, you don't need the rest of the meeting at that point, right? That is just like, we're done here. You know, you've passed with flying colours. I'll see you in Cent2. But it was yeah, so it's it's a good it's a good indicator because I don't know of any neurotypical child. Like they might be a bit shy. But they wouldn't shrug and walk off. Like that is next level. The exact opposite of situational mutism in my house is Otto, who just talks

Just cannot stop talking, he's hyperverbal, right? Is that that's a thing, that's a recognized thing, hyperverbal communication.

Kieran

Yeah, definitely. Have you met my wife?

Mark

No, no, I've had email exchanges where and I loved it. I just, it was so just like, this is what I'm thinking, and I'm going to put this on the phone. It was like wonderful. And I really got to connect with people like that. And that's exactly what Otto's like as well. There's no filter and he almost just needs to talk about anything, just needs to get it off his chest. And I think is that kind of again a predominantly ADHD trait?

Kieran

I think so. I think, yeah, I think it's usually an indicator that the H is quite prevalent. But it it's it's also a momentum thing. you know, that that once somebody starts, that actually once you get in your groove, it's really hard to put the brakes on.

Mark

Yeah.

Kieran

You know, even if you want to put the brakes on, sometimes you keep going. Like again, if you had a conversation with my Michelle, she's exactly the same.

Mark

I've read that the the reason for this is is potentially because he does have very developed listening skills. I don't know how true that is, but that is a facet of his character and and it's almost like he's overcompensating 'cause he's like, If I don't stop talking I don't have to listen. And it's also propped up by his way of having a conversation because it's very scaffolded, as I've mentioned in other episodes. He doesn't Have conversations in sort of a two-way, it's a one-way thing. So he will fire questions at you, or he'll be like, play a game, like he'll do would you rather? or he'll he'll create a quiz. So he wants to have that engagement. but it it's his way of sort of coping with it is to structure it.

Kieran

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think sounds a bit like there's a fair bit of masking behavior there as well.

Mark

Okay.

Kieran

So, you know, you use the term overcompensating. So, you know, if he's unsure of how to interact in that kind of moment, or he's not able to kind of pick up the cues that other people are able to pick up, then um, firstly, if he's not picking those things up, then he's not going to get those messages. So he'll just carry on doing what he's doing. But secondly, as well, if he's kind of feeling a bit anxious or, you know, there's an underlying kind of worry or anything there?

Mark

Or you know, there's always an underlying worry with that. There's always a worry. Yeah.

Kieran

Yeah. So so you it it sound does sound like might be that as well, but as parents and professionals around us as well, we often get quite hung up on these things. You know, it's like he's not able to process him like auditory information maybe. Ooh, maybe he just processes it differently. You know, so so we were very good at objectly kind of saying this is right and this is wrong, when an actual fact there's there's nothing wrong with what he's doing, he just does it Different. He's really happy with it. It's not.

Mark

I find it quite socially sophisticated in a way. Like, he brings people in.

you know, he's aware of that.

Mark

So it it isn't just, you know, it's a very different thing from a lot of other kids that I've met. D So I find it quite charming, but I do think it can be a bit much sometimes for other people. It can be a bit overwhelming when people are like that, can't it? The thing is, in my family. My kids are all so different. It is like if you were gonna write a sitcom, they will go. The characters are all so unique and also conflicting. So you've got the, you know, the situationally mute. the hyperverbal, and then you've got Jay, who is just special interests. It's the monotropism where he is so conversationally super confident, but only if he's talking about something he's interested in. Otherwise, he's not interested at all and he will just tell you it will just shut you down immediately. And it's the the only relatively recently I understood the term monotropism. I knew what it was I'm subject to it every single day, but I didn't actually have a term for it. Which is, you know, if you explain it to some of the listeners who aren't familiar with it.

Kieran

How long have you got? I mean, the short and sweet version of it is autistic and also ADHD people use our attention in a very, very different way to everybody else. So that's looking at all of our sensory information that all humans are kind of taking in and using as kind of fuel for our brain to figure out what's going on in the world for Autistic and ADHD people has a tendency to be pushed into our heads and out for our kind of eyes in terms of what we're paying attention to. So that means that, you know, we can Lock onto things and figure things out in a much deeper way than most other people can. So, most people can move their attentional state from kind of one thing to the next quite easily, but For people who are monotropic, it's something, you know, once something's got our attention, it's really hard to pull our attention away. Some parts of that are things like special interests and stuff, you know, the stuff that we're really, really passionate about. But it also works on a day-to-day kind of all the time kind of level as well. So stuff that I'm not interested in, but I'm intrinsically motivated to do because it serves a purpose for me that's also stuff that I can have monotropic focus on as well.

So like the washing up because I do the cooking.

Kieran

So I you know, I love cooking. And so that means I have to wash the stuff in order to be able to use the stuff. But I hate washing up. But my attention is on that washing up and if someone comes and interrupts me from that washing up, then God help them Because it's really dysregulating to me Be ripped out of that kind of flow.

It's because it's so deep in thought and deep in focus. Exactly. So focus on it.

Kieran

Yeah. So, so, yeah, lots of people think it's just about special interests and hobbies and stuff like that, but actually, it isn't. It's about. whatever has your attention at that given moment, whatever you're intrinsically motivated to kind of get into, then that's where your attention is going to go.

Mark

And what I find with Jay is that it's very hard to get him interested in anything I'm talking about. And that's where it becomes quite difficult because I don't know.

I'm starting to think that way, yeah.

Because I could have The most I could have had the most interesting day. I could have been mauled by a tiger, you know, and have that story. But if he's not interested in listening to it, it's nothing is going to hook him in. Like, he's just like, no, he'll just walk off or he'll just zone out. He'll start humming. That's the worst one for me. He'll just start humming to himself.

It's like, come on, man. I'm telling you about something really important to me.

But he was like nat, he's not interested. Um and obviously as a neurotypical that's kind of weirdly offensive because Everyone wants to think what what they have to say is really important, right? And then people are hanging on their every word. And I'm also aware that part of this is because I spent quite a a long time doing stand-up comedy. So it's like it's it's inbuilt in me, right? I mean, you ask any comedian, right? They could be doing an amazing gig. Everyone is laughing. There will always be one person Who's not paying attention or who's not laughing, and it's that one person that you think about for the rest of the night. It doesn't matter that the rest of them are having a good time, and it's that like getting Focus is really kind of ingrained in me because of that experience. It's a sound of failure, I guess, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Thanks for pointing it so succinctly there, Kieran.

Kieran

Sorry, autistic language.

Mark

No, no, I fail every day. Every conversation I have, I fail in my house at all. And that's you know, you'd think I'd get over that by now. No, no, no, not at all.

Kieran

Ah, notice what I said. I didn't say you failed, I said it's a sense of failure.

Mark

I know. So that's a perception, isn't it?

Kieran

And that's not just a thing for neurotypicals. It's a hard thing as an autistic person that wants to share the things that I find interesting if other people aren't able to engage in that, or you know, if my children or my wife or whoever isn't able to engage in that, then that's

Hits you hard right in the chest, doesn't it?

It's a why aren't you looking at me like I'm special, kind of thing, you know?

Mark

Like, because this is really important to me.

But sometimes I'll try and meet him, like he'll be talking about something. And I'll be like, last week. He started talking about mushrooms. He became interested in mushrooms. Like, I'm really interested in mushrooms and fungus and I don't know what the fuck I am. I'm just me. So I was really interested in that and I tried to sort of talk about this book, Entangled Life. I don't know if you know it, it's about mushrooms.

Anyway, I sound like, oh, yeah, that's really interesting.

Because, like, there was some scientists that took some. Um, slime mold, and they tried to model the Tokyo transit system on it. Um, and I started telling Jay about that, and he was just like, Not interested, and war just walked off. And it's like, But I'm trying to meet You on something that you literally just said was interesting, but it's only interesting if he's talking about it.

Like, it's almost like he doesn't want a duologue, he just wants a monologue.

He just wants to get it out. And it's the thing that I struggle with because I love having conversations with people that can just merge and just go anywhere. You know, like, I'd love having a conversation that could start out talking about dolphins and end up talking about like the emergence of Felakuti in the Afrobeat scene in the 1970s, right? Just like it can go.

Kieran

I was very specific. Yeah, it was.

Mark

It could go anywhere. And I like that. That it's not. a deep dive into one thing, but it's just kind of, you know, just like catching butterflies, right? It's oh, there's another one and and that that really kind of satisfies me.

Kieran

Um, but not everyone not everyone is uh not everyone does. Yeah. But you know, I think I think what is important so so so, you know, your son at that moment had a particular fascination with mushrooms and you have a fascination with mushrooms. He brought that to you. I think that's really special. Yeah, yeah, totally. No, I do.

Mark

Info dumping is that, isn't it?

Kieran

Like, it is a genuinely special thing where it's communication.

Mark

They want to share something that is.

precious to them. And that like not always the best time to do it. But but um but yes, you're right.

Kieran

You have to take that with the spirit with which it's intended, which is that I want to share something valuable to me. And it's a gift. And there's a term for that that we in the neurodivergent community call pebbling. Oh, yes.

Which is what you must have heard of that. So it's what certain types of penguins do.

Kieran

They literally bring each other the gifts of pebbles. And they go and find someone. It's not a romantic thing. It's literally like, Oh, I like you. I'm going to give you a present, and it's a pebble. Here you go. So that's what info dumping can often be. It can often be a gift. And it's not someone, you know, someone might have the motivation of sharing something with you because it's important to them. They might not recognize whether it's important to you or not, but because it's important to them and they know you care. That's a gift, that's a connection, that's a sharing. So it might be that, yes, your son might not have wanted to know about the Tokyo Metro system and how it was modelled on fungus. But you know you know but there's there's levels of connection there that that he he saw enough in you to know that you would be interested in what he had to say. Again, we can get Hung off on our children are doing this and we're doing that and we're not matching.

Mark

But actually, you are, you just don't recognize what it looks like. Yeah, Now, one of the things I wanted to pick up on something that you mentioned earlier, because it is genuinely fascinating, is why neurotypicals talk to other neurotypicals about Fuck all. Small talk, right? Why about things that don't mean anything? What is it? I used to Hate it and I when I lived in London actually, I don't know why that is significant, but I hate I was rubbish at small talk and I hated it. I've ju but since I've moved out of London, I've become a lot better at it. And I like I I enjoy it. It is just like just saying something that is completely meaningless. Chatting about the weather, right? We both know it's hot. We've got the sweat rigs to prove it. We don't need to talk about it. But that's not what it's about. It's about sort of going, Oh, I'm like you as well, I guess. It's like, you know, we've got to shared bond. We both sweat. You know, it's it's a it's a stupid bond. But for some for neurotypicals, it feels like it's a it's a validating for some I don't know if it's important. Maybe it is. I don't know. But society is littered with small talk. And I completely understand why neurodivergence is

Kieran

Hate it because it's fucking pointless. It is. Well, you know, I mean, from one perspective, from my perspective, it's pointless because it doesn't mean anything to me. But I think if it means something to somebody else, then it's important to them, you know? So it's I think But it isn't though.

Mark

It's not like I've got a burning desire to talk about the weather. pebbling maybe it's just like i'm just giving you a little giving you a little pebble just a conversational pebble i am talking to you about a thing it's not contentious because you know you're not going to launch Launch into, you know, how about Brexit? Do you know what I mean? That's a big fucking boulder. That's not a pebble. There's too much there, right? What you need is just something light that's not contentious. You just like. Little brief connection. Oh, there are other relatively sound people out there. And then you go about your business. But that's how I perceive it. But I don't know. It's a very complex social thing, isn't it, Small Talk?

Kieran

It is, it is. And I think from the way that I look at neurotypical communication and and how much small talk that constant seeking of reassurance from other people, that constantly seeking connection with other people and it's it's not something that I need. You know, I don't need constant reassurance from other people, and that's not because I'm egotistical or arrogant, or I just don't need it. It's not Part of my makeup that I need to find that from others. I think maybe this might be the difference kind of between being monotropic and being polytropic, like not monotropic. So polytropic means multiple, and mono means singular. So, you can use this as an analogy for that. So, you know, if, like I said before, if you're monotropic, you're kind of deep diving, you're seeking something meaningful, like the meat on the bone, you know. But when you're polytropic, And your attention's moving around all the time from state to state, and it's not traumatic for you to do that, then you can't deep dive as well. You're not looking for the meek, like the initial point of contact is enough. Superficiality, for want of a better word. I don't mean that negatively, but you know, in a way, people who are monotropic are deep diving and people who are polytropic are swimming on the surface. You know, so when you're having a surface experience, you look for short connections that that's meaningful for you. But when you're needing richness, then you need meaningful connection, you know?

Mark

But that's the thing with me. I'd like.

Like I'm both.

Because I mean, on my podcast.

I spend fucking two and a half hours recording something about conversations, right? I love a deep dive. I absolutely love it. But I also really kind of like the other the other.

Kieran

I like a bit of the other.

Mark

I like a bit of everything. I just like people. I think that's what it is.

Kieran

It's funny.

Mark

Yeah, there's no small talk in our house. Supposedly, it doesn't happen, it's fine, and it sounds like you're missing it. Well, but there's fucking millions of people out there that I could do small talk with. The world is littered with neurotypicals seeking validation on a very, very small level. Tiny micro-validations every day.

Kieran

There's a lot of needy people out there, aren't there? I mean, I am.

Mark

I'm probably one of the neediest, to be honest, Kieran.

Kieran

So it's fine. But I think there's also that sense of, you know, that if we're gonna you know, we're being very binary, saying some people are monotropic, some people are apology, whatever. There are there are obviously overlaps between them. Nothing's ever binary. Everything is grey. But if we're going to be binary for a second, if you think about historically, autistic people have been seen as Logic driven, whereas neurotypical people are emotion-driven. You know, so there's different needs there. It's different cultural needs, different communication needs, different expectations, and

Mark

Unfortunately, one of those groups wields all the power and the other one doesn't. One of the things that I found in my household when Tam and I were together is that very often we'd approach conversations from totally different angles. I don't mean thematically. I don't mean in terms of our comprehension of that topic. But where we were in the in that day, at that par time of day. So I work from home remotely and I don't see that many people Tam is a teacher in a secondary school, so sees hundreds of people and has hundreds of interactions a day. So at the end of the day Tam would come in, I'd be itching to talk to someone. I've not seen anyone all day, so I want to have this conversation. And Tam is finger. Fucking done with conversation. Tam did not want to have any kind of conversation at the end of the day. And before we understood that, when we both assumed that we were both neurotypical. That was actually quite difficult for me to kind of deal with is Tam just going like just being off. And then we understood it a bit more, and it's like, oh, actually, your social battery is completely drained. like you are exhausted and I get galvanized by conversation and by interaction. It's something I don't know if it's a thing with all neurotypicals or well, nothing is a thing for all neurotypicals, just as nothing is a thing for all neurodivergence. But is it more prevalent in neurotypicals that social interaction it tops up your social battery? Which it certainly does with me. And when we understood that happened, that made it slightly easier to handle. So Tam would be reading. And I'd walk into the room and sort of try and start a conversation, and Tam would just roll their eyes and put their book down and sigh. I'm like, Not feeling this, then are we? Okay. And I think it's the context of a conversation is important.

Kieran

That's so important what you said, you know, that you. thought you were both coming from the same place. Yes. And then at some point you made the realization that you were both having very different experiences. And I think in any relationship, I think it's really important to recognize that your experience is your Alone, and the person that you share your life with is perceiving an entirely different world that you are with their own thoughts, their own feelings, their own experiences, their own strengths, weaknesses, whatever. And that's again. comes back to kind of boundaries and honest communication. And that ability to do that is not something that we as we are children and growing up into adulthood that we're not in Encouraged or taught how to do. Yes. That we're not taught how to have boundaries with other people, or that we should have boundaries, and we're not taught to have honest communication because that's neurotypical communication, is dishonest communication, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Kieran

And, you know, where you're busy reassuring other people and. And you know, not thinking about yourself and your own needs.

Mark

And this same thing happens with my kids when they get in from school, you know, and how exhausted they are and how many interactions they've had. And I'm like, hey, tell me about your day. I mean, I don't do that now, but. But when they first went to school, they'd be like, What did you do today? And they're just like, done. They're just done with it. They just want to just get back and just have their own space and not you know, their batteries drained. Yeah, that's really it's really a really interesting kind of just thinking about the context Of where each person is before that conversation even happens, which I've only just really been aware of. That you know, India at the end of the day is typically just absolutely Knackered and just is really emotional. And there's no point in trying to have a conversation then. We need to be calm around each other and quiet around each other. And that's okay. And just having an awareness of that, I think it's quite useful.

Kieran

I think that also speaks. you know, if your children and Tam are and were coming home in that state, I think it speaks volumes to the environments that they're being asked to be in as well.

Mark

Yeah.

Kieran

School aren't appropriate for them whatsoever.

Mark

Yeah, yeah.

Kieran

You know, nobody should be coming home feeling like that. You know, it should be, you should be, yes, be tired, but you know, you should be. Positively tired because you've been thriving and enjoying your time and learning and, you know, being fascinated with things.

Mark

And I mean Maybe it's me though. Maybe I'm a bit much, Kieran. It's possible.

Kieran

It is possible, you know, like like like you said, you know, like like some sometimes sometimes um people who are hyperverbal can be uh Overwhelming.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'm high proverb. Maybe you need to look in the mirror. One of the other things in my household which I've had to learn to not get Offended by again. A lot of my life is just walking around trying not to get offended by my own family. Lord bless you. But it's because I like I say, I'm the odd one out, right? So I'm just like, I know that you're not doing this to be offensive, but if I'm talking to someone, very often they're doing something else at the same time.

Kieran

Right.

Mark

They don't stop what they're doing to listen to me, which I think in it is a neurotypical expectation. If I was like, you know, talking to Some of my friends who are neurotypical and they were doing something, I'd walk in and start a conversation. They'd stop doing that and then have a conversation. Or, conversely, if I'm doing something and they're talking to me, I would stop and we'd have this conversation, and that would be the thing we're doing, right? But neurodivergence, fucking multitasking in my household, is off the charts. And I always project neurotypically and go, well, you can't be concentrating in this conversation if you're like. Packing your bag for tomorrow, or if you're like writing a list of shopping that you need to put on the Aztec shop, or whatever it is, right? So I always get really annoyed by it and it's only now I'm like, oh, that's just how your brain works. Like you have the capacity to do that and I don't. And it is it's it's a bit weird to get offended by it. Now I know that that's what's going on. But I sometimes I try and just

Kieran

'Cause Jay again, like with his his humming you already told me that you test your children, aren't you? Yeah, whether they're listening or not.

Mark

Just in case. And they always pass. And so it's like I've stopped testing him now. But it was just like, what did I just say there, Jay? And he'd just repeat it. And he'd still, you know, mid-hum. He'd stop and he'd repeat and then carry humming again. It's like, oh, okay, so you were listening and you're just not interested enough to actually, you know, stop what you're doing. But again, that's a projection, isn't it? It is. It is.

Kieran

And that's about your need for validation.

Mark

It's more about me.

Kieran

Looking like what you've been conditioned to or I was going to say what you've been conditioned to kind of look for. Because that might be a thing, or it might be that that's how you're wired in order to kind of that's how neurotypicals do it, basically. Yeah, yeah, that's another school thing as well, isn't it? That neurodivergent children often get punished for not. Listening with their eyeballs. Yeah.

Mark

Not listening with your eyeballs. I don't listen with my eyeballs. And that's the, yeah, exactly. It's ridiculous, isn't it?

Kieran

And I actually listen better when I'm doing something else when someone's talking. So, like, while you're talking to me right now. I'm looking at you like out of the corner of my eye. I'm kind of looking at I'm pointing at the screen, I don't know why I'm pointing at the screen. I'm looking at kind of like like the intersection of your chin your red t-shirt your checked shirt and the microphone yeah like i'm just focus my eyes are loosely around there But I'm also playing with my pen constantly.

Mark

How dare you, Kira? How dare you not give me the full attention?

Kieran

The thing that saddens me is that historically we've been told we can't be like that because it doesn't look right. Yes. And that's to be punished for doing things the way that you need to do them and to be told that actually, no, you have to do them Do do it the way that I'm telling you to do it, which is to the detriment of you.

That doesn't make even make any sense.

Mark

Absolutely.

Kieran

If you learn less well, If you're paying attention with your eyes, you know, if you're looking like you're paying attention, then what is the point?

Mark

Oh, fidget spinners are strictly for this as well, though, isn't it? You know, you need some kind of outlet If you're neurodivergent and that is an acceptable outlet, like Jay would much prefer to just get up and walk around the room. And if he could get away with that at school and it wasn't seen as disruptive, I think it might have been a bit easier for him. But because he does, he's constantly on the move. He constantly walks around and chats and stuff. Obviously, it's distracting to the neurotypicals, the precious, precious neurotypicals amongst us. I think one of the most difficult to navigate Conversations is group conversations. Because I think when there's a group dynamic at play, it is Fraught with jeopardy for neurodivergent and neurotypicals as well. But neurotypicals is sort of operating on a set of understandings and a set of social conventions that have just been picked up by osmosis over time. Whereas my understanding is that neurodivergents have to actively think shit through. in a group conversation that is just not even in my brain when I'm I'm doing that.

Kieran

I don't know how do you navigate that sort of thing I avoid them. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty solid. I think, yeah. I think, well, first of all, you know, in we're we're in a group context, where's that group context happening? Usually it's somewhere very sociable. You know, it's an informal kind of con a formal thing is a very different thing 'cause usually there's a structure to it, like a meeting or whatever. But um you know, so it might be happening in a pub or a cafe or or or wherever. So the conversation isn't just the thing that's happening 'cause there's all the other stuff going on as well. So there's all that dynamic before you've even got to the conversation that you're trying to process, the seventeen different conversations going on around you. Your brain is seeking something that's intrinsically motivating or interesting to it. So that might not be the conversation right in front of you. That might be the conversation over there.

So you might be trying to listen because you're being polite to what's going on in front of you.

Kieran

But your brain is going, No, no, no, no, no, no, I want to be over in the corner.

Mark

Yeah.

Kieran

Because that's far more in so so you've got all that going on. And then you've got this culture clash.

You know, I mentioned culture earlier, like you marrying into a kind of different culture.

Kieran

So the culture of neurotypical communication, bidirectional communication, is very, very different to other Form gover culture's kind of communication styles. You know, turn-taking is a massive thing. Yes, yes, so you know, that the immediacy of turn-taking. So, autistic people, when autistic people converse with other autistic people, Turn-taking happens, it just happens over a longer scale. So there tends to be a lot of long strings of information exchange backwards and forwards. So it's still turn-taking. It just doesn't look like it because it's not. Fast, it's not flashing. Yes. And neurotypical conversation because you know, I used the word superficial earlier when we were talking about polytropism. Tends to be small talk, things like that. Things subjects move on very, very quickly. So for someone who's looking for a hook into that conversation, It's moving at speed and the subject is my subject matter is changing rapidly as it's moving around from person to person to person Who intrinsically, like you said, knows when to interject, when to butt in, when it's safe to do so. And as an autistic person, you are Interpreting a foreign language, you're looking for a hook. When you find that hook, you kind of go, I need to rationalize and ready my thoughts to say something really important about that important thing. And the conversation's moved on.

Mark

Some other dick has just said something.

Kieran

Some other dick has just talked about dominoes or something, you know, which you're not in. Interested in. You know, so, so, so it's so you're constantly in this kind of paralysis of genuinely. No wonder that very quickly you learn. to just shut up and sit back and not engage.

Mark

Yeah, as you say, there are so many unwritten rules and those subtle clues and the turn taking and when people are pausing to think about something they're about to say rather than pausing to allow someone else to jump in. And like it's just something that I think neurotypicals for whatever reason. I don't know. There's not been like a training camp. for this. It's just something that is understood. And I it is hugely complex. And Tam and I found that we would go to a party together And we would approach it in completely different ways. And it was really interesting that we realized quite early on in our relationship that we did this, that I would go to the kitchen And chat to the people you know what I mean. I chat to a uh the large group of people. I'd be involved in those because, again, I'm galvanized by it. I like having conversations, sort of shallow conversations with lots of people. Tam would always go and find one person and just get some fascinating shit from them. like really in-depth information. They would find that person in the party and just have a really lovely conversation with them.

Kieran

All the time. Well, contemporary best friends.

Mark

Yeah. Well, I'm In the background, just like you know, talking to all kinds of people, and then at the end of the night, we compare notes and, like, and Tam would be like, So, what did you learn about those people?

Mark

Absolutely nothing. at all. Nothing.

Mark

What what did you do? I spoke to this guy who used to be big on the Moroccan pinball scene. And they like, you know, he'd split up with his wife and set up a a hat business. The amount of detail that they would be able to give me from one conversation they had with someone Was really interesting, but they weren't interested in going into the kitchen. That was overwhelming. It was too much for them. And in hindsight, that was a very clear indication that Tam was neurodivergent, but we sort of overlooked that. So one of the things that my kids were sort of offered early on in our autism journey were social skills courses. And when we were offered them at the time, and I've spoken to Joe Matthews about this in one of my earlier episodes. You sort of go, well, yeah, they need to they need help to navigate the neurotypical world. They need to have skills and they need to be able to turn taking conversations and to be able to use listening skills and all that. So I'm going to send them on these social skills courses. And they went to them and I don't think I'd do that now. I think I'm in a different place now. Like, in that, it's okay that they don't interact in the same way. You know, obviously. in an ideal world, society would change and society would understand that not everyone wants to have the type of conversation that we've talked about. You know, not everyone talks in a Holy tropic conversational sense. But we're not there yet. It's going to take a while till till the world gets educated. But I just felt it was a little unfair. I don't know actually. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it, but I just I just know that it doesn't sit right with me that those kids are being trained to communicate with neurotypicals when neurotypicals aren't being trained how to communicate with neurodivergence.

Kieran

Yeah, it's a messy one, isn't it? So I have no issue with an autistic child being shown how other communication cultures work. if A they're being validated in their communication culture, which is the bit that never happens. And B, everybody else is being shown different communication cultures as well. So social skills training for me is something that everybody should be doing, and it should be coming from a place of This is you and you are important and the way that you work is absolutely valid. This is other people and they are important and the way that they work is absolutely valid. Let's find a compromise.

Mark

And also just asking that question, how do you prefer to communicate? You know, so so it becomes more of an open thing rather than like we're going to take these kids out of the class and we're going to go and take them to a separate classroom and we're going to teach them how they can actually act like the kids in the classroom when they go back in. And I know that it's coming from a different place. You know, it's not supposed to be kind of isolating. And it's not supposed to be othering, I get that, but it just well, it kind of is.

Kieran

That's the thing. When we say, you know, there are never professionals, but I very rarely come across badly intentioned.

professionals.

Kieran

Yeah, well-intentioned professionals all the time, but also I come across incredibly egotistical professionals and professions who are very intent on I talk a lot about, this is going to sound really random to start with. I talk a lot about imperialism and colonization. So, what we're talking about with social skills training is neuro-colonization or neuro-imperialism. So imperialism is based upon this sense of I'm right and the way that you do things is uncivilized, so we're going to teach you how to do things the way that I do things. We're going to dress you the way that you that I dress. We're going to give you the culture that we use. We're going to also steal all of your good bits.

But we'll not talk about that bit because we're too busy making new light.

Kieran

Me, so yeah, but you'll never quite be like me because, of course, you can't be because I'm great and you're uncivilized. Um, but we'll make you the make the appearance of it, and that's all about making other people feel safe to you when you have power so although uh it's well-intentioned it's still not coming from a good place when you're working on the assumption that the way you do things is

correct way to do things.

Kieran

So that's that's where that kind of pathologization comes in, that othering. And that so it is built in, it's actually built into those ideas and that ideology. But there's a lack of reflection and critical thinking that actually looks at that and thinks, oh shit, maybe I'm not perfect. And so maybe I shouldn't be assuming that everybody else should do things the way that I do things. Yeah. And it's very cool.

Mark

It's essentially masking lessons. Yeah, it is completely.

Kieran

Absolutely. That's what it is.

Mark

And the other thing is my kids were shit at it. They didn't listen. You know, they're just like, Yeah, whatever. What did you do? Oh, we, you know, blew up some balloons and played some kind of game and didn't take anything from it. They haven't changed because because well, firstly, they shouldn't. But secondly, because it's not a considered thing. Do you know what I mean? It's just who they are. You can't change the way that people choose to communicate, I think. Maybe you can. But you'd have to it'd have to be longer than a six week course, which yeah, yeah, no, that's yeah, that's ridiculous.

Kieran

I mean, it's a a kind of that's why there are therapies, and I use this term loosely, uh, interventions is probably a better word, like like applied behavioral analysis where You know, kids are put through like 20 hours a week or something ridiculous of consistent kind of training.

Mark

You're a typical bootkeeping.

Kieran

Yeah, basically. Um, that's effectively what it is, you know, and with the with the over Overwhelming threat of punishment and the reward of if you do things the right way, inverted commas. That's effectively what social skills training is. It's a diluted version of things like applied behavioral analysis. So it's all behavioral therapy. And all of that comes from this really arrogant space of you're not like me and I'm right, so We have to make you as much like me as possible. Yeah.

Mark

I mean, I don't, like, you know, Devil's Advocate, I don't think that's the place that it's necessarily coming from.

I think, well, certainly not the cognitively. Not consciously, yeah. No.

Mark

But it is more, you know. to say, well, we are the the world is neurotypical and you are going to encounter a shitload of neurotypicals. So this is how You can learn to communicate with these people because they're fucking everywhere, and you need to get like, you know, you need to have some kind of skills to be able to deal with these people. However, that isn't, I much prefer the way that we were kind of looking at it at the start of going. Why don't we all have that conversation in the same room of how do we communicate and how do you communicate? And what are the differences? And identify that in yourselves, because there may be some neurotypicals who are like, Yeah, I don't like talking to lots of people either, and I'm neurotypical, but It it needs to be a conversation with everyone rather than just the neurodivergence. I think it's not all rubbish. So I just wanted to look at the positive side of all of this as well, because I think there are positives. I think one of the positives is that no matter how our kids choose to converse with us, whether you know, whether that's info dumping or hyperverbalism. It they want interaction with us. It's a really important sign that you know they do want to interact. And I recognize that this isn't true of all neurodivergent kids. I know that, and you know, I'm very thankful that my kids are Verbal and sometimes too verbal, but that's okay. That's who they are. And I am sort of kind of appreciative of the fact that they want to communicate with me, you know, so openly. We just need to learn how to interact with them on their terms. And that's you know, I'm sure that's true of nonverbal kids as well. They communicate, but it's on their terms.

Kieran

Yeah, non-speaking people suffer from the inability of the people around them to facilitate meaningful communication. because speech is usually the end goal of everything. And if you're not someone who speaks, then that's a pointless end goal.

Mark

And again, you're judging people by your own rules, again. Yeah, exactly.

Kieran

But you know, you're applying arbitrary kind of guidelines based on your experience and what you need rather than what they need. that unfortunately is how so many of the professional systems are set up around us.

Mark

Yes, absolutely.

Kieran

It's to take people to where they're expected to be, not where they need to be. Those two are often very not the same thing. And it it it's You know, I've got three children who speak in various to various different degrees. My youngest is a kind of minimal speaker. I would classify myself as a minimal speaker as well.

Mark

Um, even though I can, Ellis, you know, I can like you're doing a great job, Karen. Verbalize very well.

Kieran

I know I can verbalize very well, but like I, you know, like I said earlier, it's exhausting. For me to after something like this, I won't talk to people tomorrow. And you know, I build that into my life that that when if I have to go out and work and I have to do lots of talking, then I build downtime for myself so I don't have to speak. And communication is so important, but communication isn't speech. Yes. Speech is a part of communication. It's actually a very minimal part of how we communicate. you know, if we're going to if we're going to be looking at positives, I think something that my family do particularly well is celebrating our uniqueness.

SECTION INTRO

Yeah.

Kieran

You know, our individual uniqueness and our collective uniqueness, you know, and it's, I know so many other families that are either doing or starting to do the same, and it's so validating to see that. People's lives change just by stop trying to keep up with the Joneses. Stop trying to interact with systems which are just causing you just so much harm. you know, and that's dependent on the how you do that is dependent on your own unique kind of privilege and what you're able to do and what you're not able to do. And that's going to look different for every family. But You know, it's just wonderful for me to see celebrating their diversity and, you know, and embracing that. I think that's so, Important to how we move forward as a species, let alone anything else.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just a final note on the positives: is that Jay has been in a particularly dark place lately. I think, you know, he's suffering. from what we recognize as autistic burnout, and he's not really wanted to come out of his room very often. But more and more now in the summer holidays, I think partly the lack of school is is helping. He's just sort of emerging from his room and just info dumping like a Absolutely going for it. And it is just like it's a sign that he's getting better or feeling more comfortable doing that, you know, because he has just wanted to. To hide himself away from the world, so when he comes out to InfoDump today, he was like talking about plasma today. I just started info dumping about plasma, and he was just letting it wash over me and just going, This is Fucking wonderful that you wanna share this with me because I know where this comes from and I know how hard this has been for you and I've missed this. you know, not conversation in a typical sense, but I will take it every day of the week because it's an unexpected source of joy and I'm really loving at the moment.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity Champions.

Mark

Right, we're going to get on to the Neurodiversity Champions section. Now, this is the bit of the podcast where I like to ask My guests to suggest any people or organizations that are doing some wonderful things in the world of championing neurodivergency and supporting neurodivergency. In the real world, have you got any neurodiversity champions for us? Oh, do you know?

Kieran

I really should have thought about this because it's like, you know, that's that point where someone asks you a question, and you're like, Oh, I've got a big list, but I can't remember anybody. I'm going to answer this a little bit differently, because I'm sure you have people who come on and say this organization and that organization. But obstructive neurodivergent person who does things in a bit wrong way. So one of my passions is teaching the history of autism and the People within that who rarely get acknowledged are the people whose shoulders that I stand on as an advocate. You know, the people who came before me, the many people who are still around, but many who are not here, who have laid the groundwork for people like myself, yourself, or other people to be able to step into the roles that we have and to have the voices that we have. So there are a huge number of autistic people who are known about as being part of that history. And there are a huge number of autistic people who are not known about as well, who quietly got on with things and have not even ended up as footnotes in history. And I think it's super important for me as an autistic person that other autistic people, other parents, other neurodivergent people, other professionals. understand and know the impact of that history, the good stuff and the bad stuff. And the role of neurodivergent advocates who came before us is not ever really acknowledged in people. Learning about how the narrative of autism has evolved. So I'm going to champion the people who are no longer here. And I would like parents, professionals, other neurodivergent people. To go and seek that history and find that history out because I see so many people talking about things without the knowledge that goes beneath it talking about things in superficial ways picking up words phrases looking at other people talk like i talk about tick tock i call it sixty second advocacy um you know, where it's like like these are your top five neurodivergent things that we do in 60 seconds, you know, and it's like you're talking about millions of people, you can't generalize like that, you know? And it's so, you know, it's doing the work, and doing the work means understanding where we've come from. And so few people do that. So if you have the opportunity to do, I would urge people to go out and champion the people that are no longer here but have put us in a far better place than we would have been ten years ago or twenty years ago or thirty years ago or forty years ago.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely.

Kieran

Before that advocacy existed. So What I might do, Mark, if it's okay, is I'll send you a couple of resources. I'm really glad.

Mark

Yeah, I was going to ask you for that. That'd be great. Instead of me having to find To find links for all the people you mentioned, no, that'd be amazing. Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes.

Kieran

That's really important to me as a teacher and as a trainer. So, I want other people to see the importance of that as well.

Mark

Brilliant. Okay, thanks for that. Um, obviously, another neurodiversity champion is yourself. Don't be coy. You're constantly championing neurodiversity and advocating for It so maybe just tell us a little bit more about what you do and how you do it.

Kieran

Wow. So now I'm at the point where, like you said at the beginning, when you gave your description of me, I wear like a gazillion different hats. And one of the one of the things that I most enjoy well, I enjoy training and I have trained probably thousands of professionals now. But I started off reaching just small numbers of people, then started reaching lots and lots of people and then realized actually I can talk out into the ether, but actually I need to see change in happening in front of me. So I started doing consultancy work And now I consult different local authorities and the NHS trust, different organizations like all over the planet. Amazing. And none of that. He said with the intention, you know, it's just factually, it's not with the intention to buy my own trumpet because I'm not someone that seeks attention and I hate attention, it makes me really uncomfortable. But I don't do any of what I do kind of You know, getting paid is nice and having a roof over my head and feeding my children is lovely. But my intention is not to earn money, my intention is not to kind of get success. My intention is that we have a community that is full of people that are dying unnecessarily and that I have managed to get myself in a position of privilege, and I need to use that privilege in order to make change.

Mark

Yeah.

Kieran

And that's what drives me.

Mark

Yeah, which is amazing. And I'm not praising you because I know you don't like it. Your website's got loads of amazing resources and some really interesting stuff on. So, um, what is your website if you'd let people know?

Kieran

Uh, it's www. the autisticadvocate. com.

Mark

Right, and I will put Link in the show notes as well, so people can kind of follow up on that and have a little rummage around all of the amazing content that you've got on there.

Kieran

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

Okay, so we did the tiny epic wins now. These are the little moments that to a neurotypical family would be considered no. no big thing, but in our world they are considered epic wins. Um have you had any of those recently?

Kieran

Well with my oldest and my youngest, two different ones actually I'll start with my oldest. So my eldest came out of school about 18 months ago, just turned 15 and he's very academic and hated every aspect of school and felt restricted by it. So, when he first came out of school, it was a very big period of uncertainty for him because he was very much conditioned to that school structure and needing that kind of structure. But he's got himself to a place where you know, he's looking at setting three or four different GCSEs because he wants to. And so he spent all his time and focus on those rather than spreading his attention across 11 different GCSCs and coming out with probably average grades. He'll probably come out with top grades out of four or five because he can he's following his passion.

Mark

Monotropic, isn't it?

Kieran

Yeah, that isn't it and to see him thriving in ways with which he's probably never thrived is just magic. And again, with my youngest, you know, like I kind of sort of said earlier about, you know, the experiences of school and the trauma that that they experienced at school. And to see the things that they do. And the other day we just happened to be talking about something completely random. And then they were like, Oh, I was watching a video about this the other day and And then they went like for three hours just info dumping on something that I didn't even think they had any interest in, you know?

So just being surprised by that, you know.

Kieran

But the biggest thing for them is that they, like me, have hypermobile Lust Daniel syndrome. So walking is difficult for them, movement is difficult for them, they experience a lot of pain and they've had to have

toenail surgery recently.

Kieran

Livvy has struggled to do physio because of being in pain and stuff and then for the first time the other day literally said, oh no, I'm doing my own bandages now and also, by the way, we're doing physio three times a day and just did it. You know, and just, you know, and this, this is, this is the thing that so many parents worry about their children withdrawing to their bedrooms. And, you know, if you give children the time and the space. and you help them understand their needs, and that helps you understand how to meet their needs better, and helps them understand how to meet their needs better. If you give them the space to do that then you worry that they've withdrawn, that they've gone away, you've lost them forever. But actually if you give them the space and you put the right things in place, then they will surprise you and they will come back at you in ways which you never expected at all. And I think they're the most magical moments for me. They're like the tiny bit the tiny epic wings, you know, that it's like things that you never expected suddenly happen.

Mark

Yes.

Kieran

Things that you were expecting but maybe put to one side because you thought, no, that's an unrealistic expectation, all of a sudden it's there.

You know, and they're ready. Because they're ready.

You know, and there's uh I can never pronounce it and I won't pronounce it because Because I'll butcher it. It's the Maori term, which is loosely translated for autism. The word I won't say, but it means in your own space and time.

Mark

Yes.

Kieran

And I think that is such a beautiful. Phrasing for what our children need. They need their own space, they need their own time, and they will produce magical things. It might not look like what you want it to look like, but it will be something magical and special. And if we put the right things in place for them, they will become very independent, very strong minded, perfectly boundaried adults. And that's all we can ask for our children.

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. My tiny epic win is around a conversation I had with Jay where I was talking about Donald Trump, right?

Kieran

As you know. We have that conversation a lot, as well.

Mark

Right. I mean, I'm not. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan. And I'm quite glad of that. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I just clarify that at the start there. What a guy. No, I'm not a fan. And I started talking. I kind of even know why, but Jay started asking me questions about Stupid shit that he that Donald Trump had done. And so I sort of was like, Oh, you won't believe it. And then I'd sort of mention something. And then he just started leaning in and he started asking me for more. And he I remember he was still at the top of the stairs. He wasn't standing still, he was like holding himself up on the wall. But I was at the bottom of the stairs and it just like I was aware that this never happens. He doesn't ask me questions about something he doesn't know about. For me to teach him about it. So I was just like absolutely loving this interaction where I'm sort of like telling him all this absurd shit. And he's loving it and asking me for more and more and more. And I realized as I was doing it, it's like, oh, fuck, I think this is my special interest. Come on, my special interest. And I think that might be why he was enjoying it. Because we kind of met in that way, that he got why he got my passion, right? I was info dumping on him for once, and it was just this really Beautiful moment that we had, which it was like probably about 10 or 20 minutes of just having this conversation. And then the other two tried to sort of ask me things. I was like, Not now, kids, not now. I'm on a roll.

Kieran

I don't care if you're dying.

Mark

Yeah, this doesn't happen. Just stem the bleeding and hold on for a bit. And it was just like that moment. I would like. But then he was like, okay, fine. And then he just walked off. But it felt so like, yeah, it felt so wonderful to just have that little moment with him because I don't have many of those. And it was a really, yeah, that was my tiny epic when.

Kieran

What the flip!

Mark

Right, we've got the what the flip section now. This is, uh, I love the what the flip section of my podcast. These are the moments where our kids will say or do something that completely baffle you and and flummocks you and make you go, what? Um happens regularly to me. Um do do you get many of these, Kieran? I get them all with my wife. That's right, that's valid. I'll take that.

Kieran

Not sure what I can say that wouldn't get me divorced though. So no. Actually, it's my It's My Middle Boy is very quiet and very lovely and unassuming and it can be a little naive, shall we say. And sometimes things just go sailing over his head that that like jokes and like family banter and stuff like that, he misses things all the time. But every so often he comes out with something which just stuns everybody in its audacity. It's like this very, very quietly unassuming. person will say something that's so incredibly funny and such a burn that it will just stop everybody in their tracks and uh He did it he did it the other day and he was talking to his mum. His mum went through a period of uh picking up speeding tickets.

She's very careful about her driving now.

Kieran

She got she Got three very quickly. And we were all talking to each other, and we were just all having this level of taking the Mickey out of each other. And usually, he's the butt of the joke, bless him. And he just turned to his mum, who's usually the next level of the butt of the joke, and he was like, Well, at least I haven't got speeding tickets. I might do all these all terrible things that you think are terrible, but at least I haven't been Arrested for driving too quickly. And she was like, You don't drive. How is that ever going to happen to you when you're not even someone who gets in a car and drives it? Um, but it was where did that come from? And but it works because usually, like I said, he's the butt of the jokes, and it stops him being the butt of the jokes. Everyone's really confused.

Mark

Nice, nice work.

I've got a couple of what the flip moments.

Mark

This week. India features in what the moment's like this isn't the one that I mentioned earlier, which is the stop the blibble blabble, or whatever she was.

She's a blibble blabber.

Mark

No, um, uh, Ilya has decided she wants a pet onion. She's like, have you got an onion? It was like, yeah. She was like, right, I want a pet onion. I was like, why? Why on left do you want a pet vegetable? And she just went, because vegetables are my thing. You cannot argue with that, can you? So I gave her an onion and she's now drawn a face on it and called it Martin. He now has his own bed next to hers.

Kieran

What will happen to Martin when Martin turns blue and powdery?

Mark

We'll have that conversation later.

You know, it's a good introduction to the fragility of life, isn't it? And the uh what was the other one?

Mark

The other what the flip moment is Jay, because Jay is very often comes out with something very acerbic and very withering. Um and Tam phoned me. Um And Tam went, Jay has just insulted me in the car and I need to tell you because it just needs you just need to understand. I was like, Okay, what did he say? And Tam said You are as ignorant as a jellyfish. And just to be clear, jellyfish can be half eaten and still not feel pain. That's it. That was the. You are as ignorant as a jellyfish.

Just clarifying how fucking ignorant they are ignorant of pain. So that is really fucking ignorant, I think, is the upshot of that.

Mark

There we go. That's what the flip moments. I think we've reached the end of this particular episode of Neuroshambles.

It's been a bit of a roller coaster.

Kieran

It's been a bit. It has, but.

Mark

Oh, it's just been absolutely wonderful to talk to you about this, Kieran. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on to talk about your neuroshambolic Family. I'd also like to say a massive thank you to the audience for listening and continuing to support Neuroshambles. If you want to Follow us on any of the socials. We are on Instagram and we are on threads and Facebook. And if you want to email us about any topics you want to hear us talk about. Or, if you've got any what the flip moments you want to share, then please feel free to send those in to hello at neuroshambles. com. I think that's about it for now. So, all that remains for me to say is have a nice life.