Christmas | ”Belle”

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Hello and welcome to episode six of Neuroshambles, which is the Christmas special. Primarily because it's nearly Christmas, not because it's particularly special I mean, it is still a great episode, but um, don't get your hopes up is what I'm saying. Um, so we've we're doing the usual classics. Uh, we've got Meet the Guest, where we're actually going to be remeeting a guest that we've had on before, which I'm very excited by. where we're going to be talking about Christmas and all of the fun and games that we usually encounter at Christmas time. We've also got neurodiversity champions and tiny epic wins. Plenty of what the flip moments as well to share with you. So that's all to come up.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So it's time to meet the guest, and this time for our first in Neuroshambles, we are meeting a guest that has been on before. So we are reacquainting ourselves with a guest. So. I'd love to welcome back to Neuroshambles Belle.

Belle

Hello, Mark. Hi, great to be back. It's really, really wonderful to be back.

Mark

Belle from episode two. We previously talked about birthday parties If you haven't listened to episode two, um Belle is actually my guest's pseudonym. It's not her her actual name. Um, but

Belle

She wanted to be anonymous, and I was happy to oblige. Sullon Disney disguise. If you could see me I'd be gilded in gold.

Mark

Delightful. It's quite fitting that we're we're you're back for the Christmas episode 'cause I can now call you Jingle Belle.

Belle

Jingle Belle? Oh, who'd have thought? Why didn't I think of that one first?

Mark

It's an actual joke on the podcast, I think for the first time. So, um so yes, it's it's delightful to have you back. Now, obviously, uh you've kind of talked about your your kids in the in the pod Casper four, but if you'd like to just kind of give us another little lowdown on the neurodivergencies in your household

Belle

Bit of a summary, bit of a status update, I suppose. So I've got two children. Amber is eight. She'll be nine before too long. She is diagnosed as autistic with PDA and SPD. Most of our listeners will probably be fairly familiar with those acronyms, and I know we've gone over them in previous episodes. And I've also got Oscar, who is seven now, and he has Tourette And he's waiting assessment for autism and ADHD.

Mark

Okay, so now we've had our reacquainting ourselves with the guests, and we've had a quick catch-up. I think it is time. to look at the next section.

Belle

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

Okay, so this the topic of this particular podcast is unsurprisingly Christmas. Christmas.

Belle

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether to say Merry Christmas or whether to give bar humbug.

Mark

You know, if you if you think about it, for most neurotypical families, Christmas Is a magical time. It's fun and it's exciting. It is a great way to spend quality time with your family. And you know, I'm guessing, admittedly, for even for neurovanilla families, um, which we I'm sure we're used to dealing with, um, Christmas can be quite taxing as well. Kids are very excited and they're sort of the Overexcited and a little bit spoiled, and that can get a bit much. But if you're in a neurodivergent family, a neuroshambolic family It's even more so, you know, apr from the kind of hellishly prolonged build up to Christmas to the actual day itself, it can be pretty trying, I think.

Belle

It's quite a full-on sort of sensory explosion of glitter and noise and general garishness, isn't it? And it it lasts for so long.

Mark

It does now. Yeah. I mean, it's like I mean Basically, as soon as Halloween's out the door, Santa comes in.

Belle

That's it. That's it. You're on Christmas prep countdown.

Mark

Jay is absolutely enraged by this. He will not stomach an early intervention of Santa So is some is Christmas something that you you personally enjoy, Belle, at Christmas?

Belle

I I think I used to. As a kid, I absolutely loved it. And I think as I've Grown as a parent, I've realized that I had some very set expectations of Christmas. And when the kids were much younger, I was absolutely dead set on recreating that magic. You know, even hand making teacher gifts. I think one year I saved up to two o'clock in the morning making handmaking truffles for little favours for the teachers. I mean, who does that? But I think if I reflect back to what created that Christmas magic for me as a kid, it was you know, staying at home on Christmas Day, having turkey for Christmas dinner, having a real tree, not a plastic And having a massive pile of presents. So you got that rush on Christmas morning, you know, that shock factor.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At no point did you feel festive, cheer based on the fact that your teacher was getting handmade truffle

Belle

Self-imposed expectations.

Mark

Exactly. Now, this is the thing, though. I think, I think, you know, as parents of neurodivergent kids, anyway, you do. You do try to live up to kind of what a way to how you were parented. I guess if you've got fond memories of childhood, you go, Oh, yeah, I want to re-quit. You you sort of have visions of that being how you're life is going to go and how your family Christmases are going to gonna go and um Bucksfiz for breakfast and for the rest of the day. Quite fancy that I do have to

Belle

Driving on Christmas, though.

Mark

Not really. Unless you're talking. Oh, dude. There's a whole family road show that has to happen on Christmas.

Belle

And I'm quite amazed your kids let that happen.

Mark

I mean, yeah, we'll get on to that. I'll explain our Christmas routine and where that has caused issues historically. But we have a sort of a pretty set Christm Christmas routine that works really well until other people are introduced, basically. When we can control the variables, it works beautifully. But for you, in your household, then you're all on board with Christmas, I presume.

Belle

Yeah, fairly. I think we do Christmas, the kids know Christmas and they kind of know the Christmas routine. And we I think over the last few years, we've kind of whittled down to what works better. And last Christmas worked better because we just scaled back on certain things. We didn't stress that people didn't want to eat Christmas dinner at the table. Eventually they did. We had different dinner options for different people because actually the more important thing was that everybody was happy and was comfortable, and we just wanted peace on Christmas. And actually so we kind of really redefined our expectations on what made Christmas Christmassy. I think that's it, isn't it?

Mark

Yeah, it is. I mean, like I say, you start to sort of crowbar your Christmas expectations in there, but if you know, eventually you just Get nah, we don't need to do any of that anymore. Um, it's slightly different in our family in that Tam absolutely hates Christmas. Tam can't stand it. They can't abide it. So it's all on me to bring the festive cheer. Like everyone else is into it, but Tam is like, I am not helping I do not want a tree. I mean, if I wasn't here, it would just be a sterile environment. You might get a Christmas card That's about it. Whereas I'm just like, we're getting a tree, we're getting decorations on that tree, it's gonna be mayhem, and for the whole month of December. I love it. But but I completely get it from Tam's perspective as well. Because, you know, Tam's neurodivergent and ADHD plays a big part of that as well. And I was talking to Tam about it last night and they were saying I just feel so cluttered. I feel like my house is shrinking because there's so much. We've got a fucking tree in the living ro That wasn't there before. So we've got to move other stuff out of the way to get the tree in the living room. And we've got to get all of the decorations out and you know, and the tinsel, which is kind of you know, it yeah, I I there's just clutter and there's visual noise that I don't think Tam fully appreciates.

Belle

No, that's Chris Christmas is very much the maker of mess and and chaos and clutter. And we have enough clutter here as it is, which we probably shouldn't have when I mean, Amber's she had a recent report done with an occupational therapist and they said that she has an additional sensitivity to both auditory and visual stimulation. And I was like, oh, okay Okay, clutter, things like that. Probably not going to help then. And then that kind of frames a reaction that I had from her last Christmas about a particular Particular issue, which I'm sure we'll come on to, and it's you know, that sensory overload of Christmas. Yeah, you know, you kind of It's so neurotypical, you just forget, yeah, no, exactly.

Mark

And we're like, hey, that's nothing wrong with getting a tree in our house. I think if Tam had their way, they would basically just hibernate for the whole of December. Just get in a box and then come out in the new year when everything's cleared away like a grumpy tortoise. In December. it's I always find that there is a creeping dysregulation as the month progresses towards Christmas. I don't know if you have the same.

Belle

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's going to be slightly different for us this year because Amber's been out of school since May. So we haven't at the moment got this situation where she's kind of surrounded by all of the school related Christmas tension and stimulus. So I'm curious to see how that plays out this year. I think I mean, if I've learnt anything over the last sort of year or so With her, is that you know, even things like counting down or a trigger to her and a demand to her that she struggles with, and the triggers that perhaps we hadn't realized before So, you know, perhaps all of those things previously have contributed to that kind of path of dysregulation that kind of increases and increases and increases as Christmas arrives.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. This is the interest Thing is, I mean, school is such a trigger, I think, for a lot of neurodivergent kids for so many reasons in the build-up to Christmas. So it'd be really interesting to see, yeah, to see how Amber kind of deals with not having those triggers. Because I know, you know, from my lot. be there there's always fun events they put on, right? It's like, oh, let's all watch ELF for a day and yeah, and to school disco and let's practice for the Carol concert. And so like the the the regular lesson The sort of the routine that they rely upon, really, to keep them regulated, just go to shit at Christmas.

Belle

And the uptick of mufty days, you know, mufty day for this, muffty day for that, own clothes day, Christmas jumper day. Do you know where we don't have to do that? That drives me crazy in Christmas as well.

Mark

That really ramps up. It's like wear a Christmas jumper day, dress as an elf day, dress as a fucking Sprout Day. It's relentless. And I I don't know, it's sort of concertina into Christmas and there's lots of that. And there's two issues with those, yeah, with with with that. Firstly, my kids, as they get more dysregulated Are much more kind of acutely affected by clothing. Jay, in particular. um, will be fine. And then if he's like, gotta wear a Christmas jumper, he's super, super like acutely itchy in a jumper and he uh or you know, he won't want to wear certain shoes because they're too tight. And so having that extra demand on him is is a a real problem and he's really reluctant to go in. And we worked out the way around that. Well, firstly, the way around that now is just well just don't do it. It's fine, I don't care. And he doesn't care. You know, it's not like he cares that his peers are judging him for not wearing a Christmas jumper. He's his own person. But before we kind of realized that, what we did is we put them in thermal base layers like really soft thermal base layers, and he loves that, and and Otto loves that, and then they can wear stuff over the top of it and it they don't feel the itchiness, but now we just don't bother

Belle

That's interesting, isn't it? Because Amber, she will insist on wearing stuff to fit into what she perceives to be the social norm even if actually she finds it distressing. And that's something we've seen with her. quite a lot actually, like with school uniform, you know, she's been given permission to not wear school uniform because of her sensory needs, but she insists on when she's at school, she insists on wearing it. It'd be the same with Christmas jumpers and things like that, any of that kind of stuff. You know, if if that's what she perceives to be the social expectation, she will enforce that upon herself. even if somebody else stands that down and says, no, you don't need to. It's well, no, it's Christmas. It's Christmas Jumper Day. I have to wear a Christmas jumper regardless.

Mark

Yeah.

Belle

That's really, really tough.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. Otta has a big problem. With that as well, but more from a choice perspective, he panics about not knowing what to wear and not having the right outfit. So he panics for a different reason. So they should just stop this nonsense.

Belle

I know it's quite fun. I just don't realize it's not inclusive. It's not singing.

Mark

But then, you know, then on the other hand, do we want to be the Christmas Grinches that go, oh, I shouldn't do that Well, this is it, isn't it?

Belle

Those people again, those people that crept out on episode two about birthday parties and rolling their eyes in the background, you know, and coming back out again to roll their eyes about Christmas and everything it brings with it.

Mark

Do you think she's going to miss out on sort of the Christmas performances as well, the Christmas concerts? that's a big thing at Christmas.

Belle

That's an interesting one. Um she's had one year was complete horror show where I went to see her do her nativity, just watched her up on the stage. She must have been it was year I think it was year probably year two.

Mark

Right.

Belle

And I just sat there in the audience completely, you know, hemmed in. with all these parents around me couldn't move and she was just she just sat there and she just sobbed her whole way through it and it was awful and I just wanted to go and scoop her up and I couldn't get to her and it was horrible. And I did give the teachers some words of advice after that saying you you know you you should have supported her out of that situation because that's all what they're doing, leaving her quiet on the st Well, exactly. So you can imagine the sort of our anticipation of the next one, where she had insisted on going to choir practice and insisted on being involved. And the teacher said, Oh, we've given her a speaking part. I said, Sorry, what? A speaking part.

Mark

Okay.

Belle

But do you know what? Actually, she got up there and she did it. And we were so proud of her, so proud of her. I mean, everything's gone to rats since then, where school's concerned. You know, it's that's definitely not going to happen this year. But at that point in time you know, it was a real achievement for her that she she kind of overcame her sort of feelings and her fears. And she did stand up and she did read her little speech and it was it was great. We were so proud of her.

Mark

Yeah, I I to um I remember 'cause ni nativity, I think, in reception, uh, certainly it is That's like your first school show, is the first time you see all of your kids sort of on the stage with other kids. And And that w that was a very early sign to us that Jay and Otto were both very different, but for completely different reasons. So Jay got um I ca I don't quite know why, but the Nativity that year was uh not about Christmas or it was about about a band. I can't even remember. He was a conductor. I don't quite I do I can't remember genuinely. The plot was lost on me, I'll be honest. Um I'm not judging them, you know. It wasn't the performance, it wa it wasn't the staging, it was just a bit It was a bit out there. But he was a conductor and he had the most speaking, and he was put right in the middle of the stage. And I think now, in hindsight, it's because he had no stage fright because. He doesn't really care about other people judging him, right? He's not thinking about them. He's just seen his own world. Great. Yeah, I'll be a conductor. Give me the bat on, I'll crack on. And he did that, and he'd do his little s line, and he did it really well, and then he'd sit down, but he'd be right in the middle of the stage. And I don't know if he did not plan for this. When he wasn't speaking And when other people were speaking, he was all over the place. He was flopping about. He was trip hazard. At one point, he started putting the baton up his nose He's like picking his nose with the conductor's button. I'm just like, my God. I'm so proud. I'm so proud of my child And but he didn't give a hoot because, you know, every because he doesn't realize that people are watching him, right? So that was an early sign. Otto, on the other hand, on his nativity, like He he is anxious in a lot of situations, so I would have predicted that he might have been anxious for his nativ But what we are learning about Otto is that if there's music involved, anxiety just disappears, and he just Fucking goes for it.

Belle

It's a useful, useful skill to have in the back pocket.

Mark

It really is. It's really useful.

Belle

Nervous child, pop on the tunes.

Mark

Yeah, I it's really it's it's it's magic to him. I don't know what happened. So so he's on stage and everyone's singing, you know, carols and stuff, and you know, they're just sort of standing there and Singing and sort of staying still, and he is rocking out, literally, just like dancing. People are like coming up to me. I have to go, and he's got some moves, hasn't he? Yes, he does. Not from me. But so if he, yeah, he was just going for it. And it was quite nice to see. Um then the subsequent years he sort of insisted uh like so I think the last year that he was at the the pr at primary school He refused to do it unless he was given a drum.

Belle

Yeah, that's going to go.

Mark

He would not do it unless he had a drum. So they were like. Okay, fine, we'll give you a jump. So in the middle of this carol concert, just like like Animal from the Muppets, he's just on the drum, just losing it. Again, it's like a lot of enthusiasm No anxiety at this point because he's got a drum. What's to be anxious about? Just drowning out the rest of them, basically. So, yeah, he treats it very differently. But my probably my favorite one with Jay, and again, this sort of ties in with his sort of aversion to wearing Christmas jumpers Is that they did a carol concert and they'd been practicing for ages, and he decided he was not going to wear a Christmas Christmas jumper. Everyone else was wearing a Christmas. Literally, everyone else in his whole year was wearing a Christmas jumper. Not Jay No, it was a performance, so he's got to make the effort. So he wore a suit.

Belle

Excellent. Absolutely dapper

Mark

Exactly. And again, he got into the middle somehow. So you've got this sea of faces of all these children wearing Christmas jumpers, singing Christmas songs. And Jay is in the middle of them wearing a full-on suit.

Belle

Representing the corporate identity of Christmas.

Mark

Yeah, he looks like their manager, basically. He's like, let them sing. Let the kids sing, guys. And I was watching this and going, you know, well, that's fine. And he was singing. And then all of a sudden, he stopped singing and he started scowling really got his proper grumpy face on. You know that autistic really like cross face. My face is going to portray exactly what I'm feeling right now. And I don't care who knows it. And I don't know I didn't know what what was what the problem was. And I spoke to him afterwards. I was like, What, you got a bit grumpy for a while back there, Jay. What what happened? He went, I saw two people talking Right. So two people in the audience of like maybe hundreds were talking. You're not following the rules though. That that's so important.

Belle

And the justice. Where's the justice? Where's the teacher sending them out?

Mark

Exactly. So there were two grown-ups who were at the back, right at the back, and he was just really like giving them evils. Um, and they were oblivious to it, and I was not. I was very fully aware of it. He was yeah, he he stood out like a sore thumb. I think so many people sort of suspend disbelief at Christmas. There is a belief in magic. And I was wondering if you all kids before I go on with this bit, just be aware that I'm going to talk about the provenance of Father Christmas, and if that's going to cause a problem to anyone listening, ple Just take action now. But Father Christmas, do your children still believe?

Belle

I don't know. There was an incident en route to Legoland this year, and I don't know if it was just P D A talking or whether it was inner eight year old talking, but there was some kind of vicious comment made towards Oscar about Father Christmas no longer existing.

Mark

Oh my gosh.

Belle

To which point I was like, my worst nightmares have come true. Oh no, she's ruined Christmas for everybody. I uh well, I I I cuffed it a little bit and just went, Oh, you know, that's a load of rubbish. I mean, how on earth do you think I would be able to afford all of those presents? I already buy you the lot under the tree. Do you think I could affo afford the rest of them as well? I mean, what what am I made of money? It's not like we're driving a golden Lamborghini and that jazz and really sort of, you know, kind of played it out with him and just sort of made him think it was just a bit ridiculous.

Mark

But I did then was Oscar on board with that?

Belle

I think so. I think I don't think you'll ever really know 'cause I think there's always that weird transitional period as a kid that, you know, I remember and I think, you know, I was playing along with it just because I didn't want to hurt my parents' feelings. At one point, you know, so who knows?

Mark

Well, I'll tell you who knows: Jay knows. The cat is out of the Christmas bag, and we did not tell Jay, he told us. Yeah, he was four, and he just went like he, like he was breaking news to us. Like, Daddy, I think you need to sit down. I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to tell you that Santa is not real. I was like, what makes you say that, Jay? And it was like, oh, come on. Of course he's not going to be able to get around the world in all that time. It's logistically impossible.

Belle

Well, it's the literal thinking, isn't it? It's the literal thinking.

Mark

It is. There's no magic there, is it? It's just like, of course, this is absolutely ludicrous suggestion. And he just, there was no, you know, sometimes where they're sort of fishing for you to tell them. He was like, no Just like he just came out with it. It was a cold, hard fact that Santa is not real. And I'd be an idiot if I didn't believe that. So I sort of went, um, okay, but you don't tell your brother, okay? Yeah, I didn't quite get that luxury.

Belle

And I think I don't know, there's a story that we'll we'll go on to a little bit later, specifically about last Christmas, where I I'm sure she she believed last Christmas, but I'm I'm not so sure she does now.

Mark

Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, t in fairness to Jay, he has never told Otto he's always like kept it as a bit of a kind of nudge and a wink secret between us, which he quite likes that, I think.

Belle

Yeah.

Mark

In a way. So that's quite that's quite nice. Otto is is he broached the subject last year. And I sort of said, Well, do you do you want him to be real? Because if he's not real, then the presents aren't going to appear, are they? And he was like No, yeah, yeah, it's real. He's fine. He's real. So that was that nipped in the bud. And India, I think, still believes in the magic at the moment. But I do fear that that Jay or Otto, when they're cross, will just blurt it out and tell them. But, you know that's how it happens, isn't it, eventually. You know, Nicholas Forbes told me in the playground at school when I was, um, you know, probably about five. So as well as sort of the belief in Father Christmas, there are also the occasions where, again, sort of these projections as parents of neurodivergent kids of going Well, let's let's let's show the kids the magic. Let's take them to see Santa. And that has not been as magical as I'd hoped, I'll be honest. We've uh yeah, we've had some experiences with Santa. What what have you have have you have yours been to visit any? Santas?

Belle

I think, yeah, I think the most the we we sort of stopped doing Santa visits after we went on the Polar Express. which we were all really excited about. We donned our Christmas matching pajamas. You know how all the rest

Mark

The world. Is the Polar Express? Just take me through. Isn't the Polar Express a movie?

Belle

No, yeah, well, it's like an experience, and you go on a steam train or whatever it is. and there's sort of like a show on the train where they do dancing and singing and they hand out hot chocolate and cookies and you're kind of outside the window. there's like this wonderful display and you kind of go along the display and it takes you on the journey to Lapland and at the end of the journey Father Christmas, you meet Father Christmas and he gets on the train and you know and he gives a gift to all of the children and of what I ha just hadn't even occurred to me and hadn't even anticipated. And there's fakes know as well, which is always quite exciting. But I just hadn't anticipated that Amber just was totally confused by the whole thing because we had told her we were going on a train to Lapland to see Father Christmas. The train didn't go to Lapland It went somewhere else in Sussex, and then a man dressed as Father Christmas got on the train and gave everybody a gift. And she just sh just was so you said we were going to Lapland to see Father Christmas. We are not in Lapland. And she just, yeah, she just absolutely I didn't get it.

Mark

And I think it was at that point we were like, She called you out, is what she did.

Belle

She totally did. And I think when I reflect on the is he, isn't he Santa Claus issue as well? And I think, you know. Are my kids the kind of kids that I should be lying to this extent every year consistently? Is this the right thing to do? Yeah, that's the thing.

Mark

It's like, yeah, just uh believe in the magic.

Belle

And it's like, well, no, but we're just feeding you a line every year.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. We just want you to believe in the magic Um, did he was it a real beard or was it a a quite evidently fake beard?

Belle

Oh, it was clearly it was clearly a f a a fake Santa. I mean, it was a nice costume and whatever, you know, they they'd shelled out for it, but she was just having none of it and I just it it flawed me because I just thought I mean she was still quite young at that point. I think she must have been five or six and I just

Mark

So so did you did she call you out on the train in ear shot of all the other other children? I'm trying to remember now.

Belle

She was just sort of like you said we were going to Lapland, we're not in Lapland, and she was just really grumpy about it, I think. But, you know, we'd I'd taken sort of, you know, kind of grandparents along with us who were all really very Christmassy. And I think everybody was just felt a little bit flat that it kind of hadn't really quite panned out how we had hoped.

Mark

We're not going to be going to visit Center this year. I think we're done with that after I don't think it was last year. It might have been the year before where we basically Disgraced ourselves. Well, so we went to San Father Christmas. We went to see Father Christmas in Preston Manor. So it's a big, you know, manor. House in Christmas setting, it's beautiful in there, and the Santa was absolutely spot on. It was a real beard. He was really, really giving it everything he had. But the whole experience, from my perspective, was really stressful because I mean, firstly, you kind of you go in there and all of the other kids are dressed in Christmas clothes. Like, you know, you know, like elf costumes And like Christmas jumpers, and they're really smart. Because I think, you know, other parents are like, well, you've got to dress smart for Centre. And the kids will just go, yes, of course I do. And they'll just Fucking do it, right? I'm not, I'm not gonna, that's not gonna switch.

Belle

How the other half lives.

Mark

Exactly. I don't think I want to live that way. Dress up to see Sand, anyway.

Belle

Dress up to sit on some strange man's knee. Exactly.

Mark

So my rub will rock up in whatever they're wearing Probably Wansies, whatever it is. And they're expecting to see Santa. Now, Jay already knows that it's a sham. And Otto is probably suspicious, but but he's happy to kind of just suspend this belief there. And India is none the wiser. So we turn up. And there's we're we're 'cause they do you in batches, 'cause it's a racket now. It's like a proper it's a machine, isn't it? It's like these people here, we're going to entertain these people with some elves and some Christmas music and some Hot chocolate while we're getting the other ones out the back door. Um, and Santa has a shot of whiskey before the next lot come in, right? Um So so then they funnel us through into this room and there's songs play Christmas songs playing and um And everyone ne has to sit down and wait. But that in itself is not a given with my kids. They they could sitting down night sitting down and waiting, they're two already two issu Sitting still and waiting for a thing that you want to happen are problematic. So everyone else is sitting very nice.

Belle

You didn't get the opportunity to queue jump with your Sunflower lanyard or anything like that.

Mark

I think that was probably in the days before I started to realize that I should stop trying to crowbar my children into neurotypical situations and expecting them to behave like neurotypical Just by osmosis. You know, you pack them tightly enough with neurotypicals, they'll behave like them. Of course, they won't. What they will do is they will appall everyone around them. So, anyway, they were already pretty fizzy by the time they went in to see Santa. Then they go into this beautiful drawing room. It's massive, like tree, and there are elves there getting the children to sit on the floor before Santa comes in. My kids are not going to sit on the flo when you ask them to do that. So they're sort of milling around and I'm trying to shepherd them there. And I'm also, you know, trying to say to Jay, well, obviously sit sit down, otherwise Santa's not Going to come, and then I realized that I need to stop that line because he's going to be well, Santa's not real and ruin it for all of these kids. So I just go, he didn't say that. I was just like, I caught myself and went. Come and sit with me. Just come and stand over here with me.

Belle

It's like a PDA worst nightmare.

Mark

It's like a grenade, isn't it? In the middle of that experience for so many kids, it's like a really special thing for them.

Belle

Reflecting on that and quite glad that I've not done it over the last couple of years now that Ticks are really involved in our life, you know.

Mark

It's oh god, yeah, do you imagine? So, um, yeah, because we're going to be ruining lots of people's Christmases. They're going to be hearing some very non festive language. So all the kids are waiting. They're very expectant. And the elves are trying to you know, 'cause the elves are essentially crowd control at this point as well, aren't they? That's their job. They're, you know, set dressing and crowd control all in one to go, you know, well, you know, sit down, otherwise Santa won't come out and all that guff, right? So, um but Otto and India do sit down And that's okay. And then finally, Santa shuffles out and tells a story. And, you know, it's fine, but we all know why we're here We're not here for the story, are we, dude? Bring out the presents and let's go because I'm already like I'm already on edge. You know, I'm just thinking it Jay could ruin Christmas for everyone. And I'm already feeling a lot of judgment from the other parents as well because my children are deemed as naughty, right? It's like, you know, and I don't, I'm not, I'm not going to just. Explain the situation to every one of them, so I just kind of let it happen. Um, and then he gets out his bag of presents, and this is one of the ones where, in advance, you sort of because you book on, so they've got a list of all the kids, right? Got the kids' names written down. So he gets out the present and he reads the kid's name. And the kid comes up and takes the present, and then he gets the next. One and this takes for ages. It's just like, when is my present? And they're getting fizzier and fizzier, and for whatever reason. We're right near the end and I can tell because he doesn't know who the kids are. So he's reading the names and like I can tell he's hoping that the name he reads out next to these kids over here, my kids, right? It's like You know, Joseph? No, it's not Joseph. Oh, okay, fine. Like he's trying to get us through the door. Um, and eventually my kids go up and they get their present and he Like, okay, don't open it until you go out, you get outside. Um, a red rag to a bull, it really is as well. Because obviously, all of the presents are the same, aren't they? Basically, you know. They they have which another thing that just drives me crazy is they have boy presents and girl presents. Like, why? Why? Yeah. Why do they have to be gendered? Just give them a present and move along. So obviously, Jay rips open his present. It's like a blackboard in chalk Disappointing. Which but they're all disappointing. That's the you know, you're not it's not going to be a PlayStation, is it? What are you expecting? So but obviously he he can't disguise his disappointment. There as well, he's, you know, so he's muttering under his breath something, and he starts, he strops off, and I have to kind of follow him. Basically, we we eventually get out. And then they're like, right, you can look around the you can look around the manor now because your entrance fee, you know, also includes lookers like, nope, we're just getting the fuck out of here Let's get in the car. Um, so yeah, we just bundled into the car and left. And I just thought that is I'm not gonna do that style of uh that style of Santa

Belle

Again, it's just not worth it, is it? Yeah, there's other ways of creating the magic and tailoring it to your own brand of family unit, I think.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah, exactly that. And it's also, you know, it's just another of those experiences where I'm like, that was entirely my fault. You know, that is not on my kids. That's on me. I should not have the I should I shouldn't have brought this in.

Belle

You kind of feel like your years are numbered, though, for the Christmas magic, and you kind of, you know, you know that that's going to end at some point.

Mark

I mean, it ended that day. So we're talking about the sort of the build up to Christmas and the kind of Christmas magic and um a part of that buildup is is kind of writing a Christmas list, I guess. And you're saying that, you know, at the moment, PDA is putting a stop to actually writing the Christmas list for Amber, is that right?

Belle

Yeah, very much. I mean, she's got some very specific Christmas wants this year, but she she went and bought one for herself the other day, so that was immediately one that I can't get her for Christmas Because she's squirreled away all of her money and she's really good at saving. So I don't like to say no when she actually wants something. She said, Well, can I use some of my savings to go and buy that? And it's kind of like, well. Yeah, you haven't really bought anything this year. Okay, go on then. But it was like that was the one thing I knew she wanted for Christmas and she's gone and bought it for herself. But she I tried to sit down with her the other day and say, Well, well, how about I type your Christmas List on the laptop, and we can look up some links, and you can tell me exactly what you want, and we can put the link on the list. She was like, Oh, fine. And I was sort of looking up these sort of Pokemon toys and things That she wants, she's like, You are so wasting my time. This is taking forever. I'm not interested. I'm going, and it's like, Okay. knowing full well that, you know, if we if we don't get the thing that she has envision envisaged probably in the middle of her head, that we're gonna Pay for it Christmas Day. And that sounds like, you know, the neurotypical viewpoint of that is how spoil, but actually, you know, She has a very set image in her head. I mean, last year, against our better judgment, she was desperate for a Barbie dream house. She wanted a Barbie Dream house. We knew that she wouldn't play with the Barbie Dream house, but it was the only thing she actually wanted So we got the Barbie Dreamhouse. The Barbie Dream House has been played with probably less than ten times and is currently in my hallway waiting redistribution to some other child now.

Mark

Was it well received on the day, though?

Belle

Yes, it was. It it hit the mark on the day. It was what she wanted. Great. Job done. But this year, I'm struggling to even get the what is it that you want on Christmas Day? And I think she'll have that expectation of, you know, the big pile of presents, which the pile gets smaller as you get older 'cause the things you want are smaller and it's more expensive. So, you know, facing this small pile of Nintendo Switch games and Pokemon cards versus a giant box that she got last year with a barbecue.

Mark

I think in in a way though, I I've I like I actually I quite like the fact that my kids aren't they're not sort of into what their mates are into. They don't want presents for the sake of presence, or they don't want presents for the sake of the fact that most of their classmates are getting that, or that's the thing to get this year So that's quite nice in a way that they're not just going, I want this and I want this and I want this and like this, and just firing a bunch of different things.

Belle

She's got very, very focused interests. And I always try and get, you know, a sort of Oscar's really into football, so everything will probably be football related, or, you know, he'll be delighted with a new pair of football boots or something, or a new pair of goalie gloves under the tree, and that's all quite practical. I can deal with that And Amber is she is in complete Pokemon zone at the moment. So everything will be Pokemon themed. So, okay, a new lunch box, okay, a new water bottle, okay, some clothes with Pokemon on. That's fine. So I I think we can work around it, but it would be nice if she would write a list, but she's having none of it.

Mark

I mean, Otto is extremely anxious about writing Christmas This and always has been. So, I mean, because he's got, you know, he has huge problems with choice, with choosing things. It's it's PDA, I think, isn't it? It's that demand of like you've got to tell me something. And he's like, Oh, there are too many things. And if I say a thing, then what if that's the wrong thing? What if that turns out to be something I don't want? And so he panics a little bit. So that's quite quite hard.

Belle

I think that's part of Amber's issue as well. The the kind of P D A and and choice is really, really difficult. And it feels so final, doesn't it? When you write something on a list to say, well, that's what I want. Well, w what if I change my mind?

Mark

Yeah.

Belle

You know.

Mark

I mean, Jay has no such issues. He knows exactly what he wants. But it's all really odd, right? So One year, when he was like three, he was like, Definitely wanted a pogo stick. Definitely wanted a pogo stick. Fine, I can do that. That's not a problem. A couple of years ago, he wanted a kitchen knife. Which is again, I was like, okay, we could we can do that because he's not going to use it without our supervision and that might help him to you hope. Yeah, exactly No, I know where it's locked. It's fine. But, you know, it might help him be more kind of conf In the kitchen, and to might actually get him to cook food he will eat. So, you know, yeah, that's fine.

Belle

I mean, could be an added bonus.

Mark

I mean, it hasn't happened, that hasn't manifested itself, but that's fine. You can, you can imagine, you can dream. Then last year he wanted a cloak because, again, he was living his Victorian dream of just having a cloak. This year he was like And this is a couple of months ago. Do you know what I want for Christmas, Daddy? No, I don't. A banana peeler. It's like, what?

Belle

Okay, can you even get banana peelers? You can get like banana shaped lunch boxes to put bananas in.

Mark

Yeah, no, it was very specifically a banana peeler. I was like, what Your hands are banana beans. Didn't know there's an actual thing. He's like, no, there's a thing. And he tried to describe it. He was like, all right, fine. I've got it. You're going to get a banana bean. That's it. But I like the fact that it's not. He's not he's doing it because he wants it, not because other people are getting it, or I don't know.

Belle

And like Oscar, he's going on about cash and a laptop.

Mark

Is that what he's saying?

Belle

Cash.

Mark

Cold hard cash, Mummy.

Belle

Yeah, cash. Cash. Cash has been suggested.

Mark

Really?

Belle

Cash and a laptop.

Mark

All I want for Christmas, Mummy, is for you to make it rain. So once the Christmas list has been written and it comes to Christmas Day What I'm interested in is what your day looks like and how that looks, because everyone's Christmas is so different Everyone di has different traditions.

Belle

Yeah.

Mark

I mean, and those traditions are compromised somewhat, I guess, by your personnel.

Belle

Yeah. Well, yeah, my personnel, not always my kids, I think, um, reflecting on last Christmas. And our um Yeah. It was a funny we sort of we planned we planned really well. We were like, right, we're not going to have loads of people round. We're not going to have the family coming in and out like buses. We're going to keep everything really low key, and we're going to have a really chill Christmas. And one of the self-imposed kind of Christmas traditions that I impose from my childhood, which still carries on to this day, is that when people open their stockings, we sit in bed I am presented with a cup of tea and we open the stockings in bed.

Mark

And that's very civilized.

Belle

Yeah, and that that's it's just really nice. We're all in our gym jams.

Mark

Cup of tea there.

Belle

Everybody's opening their bits And pieces, and that was going swimmingly. And for years, pre-kids, my husband and I have always got each other stockings, and that's just been something that we've done. And so this year the kids came down with their stockings. The dog was there. I had my cup of tea. Great. They're opening their stockings. I've managed to strategically hide husbands Stocking in the room and gone, Oh, look, Santa, left this for you. Oh, there's your stocking. And there was a look of abject horror on his face. And I was like Hmm, okay. Hm, what's happening here? And then the I think the first person to pick up on it was Amber, and she's like, Where's your stocking

Mark

Oh, my God.

Belle

And I'm like, oh, well, I don't know. Santa's probably left it somewhere silly and I just you know, see this look of horror on my husband's face. And then he's You said we weren't doing them this year and I'm like, I have no recollection of that conversation. Oh no. Genuinely don't. And there's some debate about this now. He seems to still think that we had some conversation where the stocking for each other was kind of stood down. Um, but it wasn't. And, you know, she'd gone from perfect Christmas morning mood instantly to utter devastation and Christmas is is cancelled. Christmas has cancelled.

Mark

Santa has missed you out because you've been a naughty girl. Mummy has been naughty.

Belle

She has is absolutely outraged because mummy is not naughty and she's devastated and Christmas is ruined. Oh, it was just awful.

Mark

She feels a very keen sense of injustice as well. So she's she's fighting your corner, no doubt.

Belle

Huge, and you know, she was on strike. Christmas was cancelled, Oscar was starting to get upset, and it's you know, I hadn't even started drinking my cup of tea at this point And it was, you know, we'd gone from, yes, we're going to win this Christmas to, oh, dear God, here we go, from the moment we've got an really early for it to go wrong. I think it was probably about five o'clock In the morning, it was really, really early mark, as Christmas mornings tend to be. And so I sort of, I don't, I can't even remember what happened. I probably suggested that, oh, maybe Santa's left it somewhere around the house, to which there was some frantic scrambling of the husband and then my stocking appeared. Drives to a petrol station. some some unwrapped items in it and I don't I think it was a pair of socks that was going to be gifted to somebody else that hadn't been wrapped yet in there and a sort of a miniature bottle of gin that had been taken. From the bar, and God knows what else was in there. I think a bar of chocolate from the fridge or something, but it worked, and Christmas was saved.

Mark

Did it work?

Belle

It did okay, wow, it did Christmas message. And I was like, oh. Silly Santa, you know, hiding my stocking round the house.

Mark

As you're swigging the gin.

Belle

Yeah. It was it was a it was a moment. It could have it could have just coloured the whole rest of the day.

Mark

Yeah. That early morning bit is actually quite nice for us as well, I guess. It's because there's no one else around, right?

Belle

No, it's lovely. It's just you.

Mark

So it's like we we're we're you know, we know We're controlling the variables, it's important.

Belle

So, I think the other thing, as well, that you know, I always used to try and enforce on Christmas Day was a no-TV rule. I mean, that has absolutely gone out the window. Of course, TV is involved on Christmas Day.

Mark

Why would you do that? Exactly. It's stupid.

Belle

Stupid. But the routine is kept as normal, you know. There's breakfast as normal breakfast would be in front of the T V and that's fine. Do you know, and we just we just now try and keep things as normal as they sort of can be on a Christmas Day.

Mark

Yeah, so we so we have stockings in the in uh similarly, but um Tam and I don't get each other's stockings. Um the but the kids have stockings and they open their present their presents from this Stockings, but we what we do then is have breakfast, so stockings is kind of small stuff basically. Um, and we then have breakfast, uh, and rather because when I was a kid. My mum, she loves Christmas and she would go really overboard for Christmas and she would there'd be a mountain of presents and we'd just be ripping over the presents and going I can't do that.

Belle

I I'm very rigid about that. People can't just pile into the presence because then nobody knows who got who what and No, it has to be done in a one at a time orderly fashion. Everybody has to watch each other open in their presence.

Mark

Yes, that's what we do. That's absolutely what we do. But That has backfired sometimes when we go somewhere else and they're disrupting the presidents.

Belle

Jay is like, no, that's not what our Christmas is done. I'm with him. That is not what we do here.

Mark

So he's Because he re he loves the giving the presents out. So there was a time that we went, um, and this is this is the time of the biggest Christmas melt. Town that Jay ever had. So we went to my parents' house and we had, you know, open our presents. And the cousins, you know, my brother and That his kids were coming over, and so we were like waiting for the cousins, and he wanted to give them presents, right? And he kept saying, When can we give them presents? So we'll wait, obviously, wait for them to get here. Wait for them to get here. Then they arrived, and they hadn't even got their coats off. And he was like trying to give them presents, and various different people were saying, No, not yet, not yet. Just wait, just wait. But he'd had this expectation in his head all morning. That was what was going to happen. They were going to come through the door, and he was going to give them presents. And so when he was told that that wasn't going to happen. he just couldn't handle it because he was so excited and he was so sort of keen to do it and t to for for this to be Christmas like he'd imagined. That he just had a complete meltdown, and I've not really seen it since. And he was just rolling around on the floor and making these kind of animal noises.

Belle

Totally boring.

Mark

Rare, completely like that, was it? He was done. And I sort of had to, you know, take him away. I literally carried him into a different room and sort of tried. To talk him down and understand what was going on. And I spoke to him in the bedroom and said, What was What's going on? And he was like, People keep telling me different things, and I don't know what the rules are. Which was very clear, actually, very self-aware of him because he wasn't really, you know, able to articulate that. Really, at that age. So it was very, very clear. It's like, okay. So, what we did is we said, okay, at this time, we are going to open presents with Cousins, and you are going to be the Christmas elf, and you are going to hand out the presents, okay? And we made it a thing, he had a role. Yeah, um, again, we've kind of talked about the importance Of giving them a just defining what it is that's going to happen and what they're doing. So then his job was handing out presents to people, and that's where he became a bit of a military An elf. It's like you cannot have that present. You can't open that present yet because Grandad's not finished opening his present. And happy. So it was a little bit like the other person.

Belle

Yeah.

Mark

It was a little bit like Christmas at gunpoint. But but it definitely kind of resolved that little uh the situation that we found ourselves in, and it w it it worked in the end. So that was good. So you you're saying that you don't have visitors at Christmas time? No, we no, we did.

Belle

We had my brother and his girlfriend last year, which is really, really lovely. It was just the six of us, and it was really really chilled and really relaxed and it was really, really nice. And then when the kids went to bed as normal, we just we stayed up late and played some cool board games. Regretted that the next morning, but you know, so that was really lovely. So, we did a really good balance last Christmas. I think this year we either haven't got anybody coming, or we've got my husband's dad coming. I'm not sure yet. But yeah, I just I can't be doing with too much family traffic on the day. It's better if they come on the boxing day once the kind of the initial expectation of the day is kind of over.

Mark

Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Chilled and relaxed are not words that I would ever use to describe our Christmases and I I think, yeah, maybe we do do too much, but there's an expectation that we basically different people in my family And Thames family host Christmas. So we sort of rotate. What we do is we always have Christmas morning. at hours and then, you know, they're kind of a drivable distance away. So we all then pile into the car and go to whoever Whoever's house it is. But then, when you do that, obviously, that's fine when it's small, but when more people come, dysregulation occurs And even though they're people that we know and we love, and the kids know and they're comfortable with, it's not that. It's just this, it's almost like a frog in hot water.

Belle

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark

Just bubbling away, and then all of a sudden. Because it's so sensory to them. And I overlook that every year, and I totally shouldn't do that. And it's completely wrong of me. But there is so much going on for them

Belle

In terms of number of people and smells and different paper everywhere, pine needles everywhere, the dog's overexcited.

Mark

And so there becomes that gradual build-up until there's a time where it's. Like, yeah, that's it, we're done. Uh, and Jay will usually be the one that calls that. Yeah, he's just like, We're going now. It was like last year, it went to my brother's, he was hosting, and they've got a really lovely big house. Was really nice. And then Jay, like quite early, just went, Can we go home now, please? Yeah. And my my brother gets it. And and um, but I I wasn't ready for that. I wanted to stay because It's my family Christmas as well.

Belle

It's difficult, isn't it? As parents, you kind of, you know, we're excited about Christmas. We want to enjoy it as well in the way that we would enjoy it. And I think You know, I think if I've learnt anything over the last couple of years, it's to kind of manage my own expectations a bit. And I think, you know, I've enjoyed Christmas far more having what I think are more low demand Christmases now, where we do, you know, I mean I wouldn't have dreamed a few years ago of not seeing my parents' Christmas Day, but you know, my mum and dad get it. And, you know, we talked about this year and Mum and dad are like, Oh, we're gonna stay at home, we're gonna have your grandparents to us and you know, maybe we'll see you on Boxing Day or the day after. You know, I'm like, Yeah, that's fine, it's you know, we've got some time off this year, so that's That's not a problem.

Mark

Yeah. I mean, my favourite Christmas, and I think I speak for a lot of neuro-shambolic families when I say this. My favorite Christmas. Was COVID Christmas.

Belle

Where you had a low-demand Christmas, you didn't have all those visitors.

Mark

Fucking brilliant because we weren't allowed legally, we were not allowed to have visitors No, it's like, and we were legally not allowed to go and visit people. So we had exactly the Christmas we wanted. It was like, I personally love being sociable and I love going to To people, but for my family, that Christmas was wonderful because we did everything we wanted to do at our own pace.

Belle

You know what the answer is then? Just tell everybody you've got COVID at Christmas, nobody will want you then. Stay at home.

Mark

Sorry, girl, because I'm riddled with the COVID. You don't want me eating your Christmas dinner.

Belle

Man, it'd be amazing.

Mark

And like I say, like I do, I do love it, but it's not it's not the best thing for my kids. My mum in particular loves Christmas and loves gifting. And so, what we did is I drove to my parents like the week before, they left a big bag of presents outside the door for the kids. And I piled them into my car and then drove home. And then on Christmas Day, we had a Zoom call with them where we opened the presents in front of them Because my kids are super excited about very small presents. It's like They lose their minds. No, it's nice though. Literally, Jay has been jumping up and down going, I've got socks. Yes, I've got socks. Like, they're just sucks, dude. Um, and so I was in this s situation where my parents are on the screen watching my kids open these presents and loving it. And I'm watching my parents watching my kids and seeing them just really kind of glow. And that was just a really magical Christmas that year. And I know, like, I know a lot of people die And I know it was harrying for many people who couldn't get to see their families, but for that little pocket of time, it was exactly what we needed, and it was really nice. So I think that's Christmas well and truly covered. And it's making me both look forward to and dread Christmas this year, all in one, which is Quite an interesting feeling.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

Okay, it's time for It's Not All Rubbish, where we're going to be looking at the positive. aspects of parenting neurodivergent kids. So let's kick off with neurodiversity champions. Have you got any neurodiversity champions

Belle

Yeah, I think I have actually, reflecting on a situation that I had last week that I know I messaged you about and I think you found quite entertaining But I am I had the we me and my husband had the foresight to just really reflect on how mad life is at the moment with work and with one out of full-time education, etc. And we we hired ourselves a cleaner Cleaner, coming in two hours a week, lovely clean house, one thing less for us to deal with. You know, how very middle class, but how very lovely all at the same time, but hadn't really anticipated That Amber would really not tolerate the cleaners coming into the house and absolutely refusing point blank to let them in Two hours.

Mark

There was a cleaner waiting outside.

Belle

Yeah, that yeah, there was two of them and no, no, she they were allowed in the house But the one place that I really wanted cleaned was our kitchen, living and dining area, which is all kind of open plan and in together. It's the the biggest space in the house really. No matter what I tried, no means of negotiation, she was having absolutely none of it.

Mark

Like Asim was just physically not going to move from the space and not going to allow it.

Belle

No, and she was getting more and more dysregulated and I tried everything, bribery, everything, and she was just having absolutely none of it. And it was it was really h difficult because I was the ki you know, and that person and they've been here a couple of times and this is now the second time she's flat out refused to let them in And it was kind of like, okay, well, thanks, ladies. If you could just do just do what you can. Yeah. And they're like, J is she going to let us in? And I'm like, No. No, she's not. And, you know, and I sort of that was really difficult. And I did spend a lot of time thinking, can I not bloody outsource anything in my life? You know, I'm going to be confined to Cinderella behaviors forever and ever and ever. And I think there was some comment around, well, nobody can clean the house apart from you. That's your job at one point from Amber. So yes, I was both seething and disappointed, but also laughing slightly at the whole ludicrousy of the situation. But that kind of leads me on really to my recommendation of the local business that provides my semi cleaning services at the moment because the girls that come to the house are just wonderful. They're so understanding and so sweet about the whole situation, and there's absolutely no judgment from them at all. They're just They're just sort of like they're like, you know, is there anything you we could do differently?

Mark

Do you think the smell of things and or that's really sweet?

Belle

You know, what if we came in and we had a chat and introduced ourselves? Would that help? And they'd just be so sweet none of it none of it will help but you know they've just they've just been absolutely lovely about it so i'd really like to kind of give a shout out to um this amazing cleaning company called Amazing Maids, who are based over in sort of East Sussex, primarily East Bourne sort of area And they're just they're just wonderful. Not only do they absolutely do an absolutely smashing job, but equally the staff that they have are just so lovely and so understanding and just made a really awkward, difficult situation ten times easier than it could have been. Brilliant.

Mark

Okay, that's a great shout out. Thank you for that. I've got a quick neurodiversity champion shout out. And this is for Glow Wild. I don't know if you've heard of Glow Wild.

Belle

Oh, I have.

Mark

I've not been though.

Belle

Sounds lovely.

Mark

So, Glow Wild is an event that is at Wakehurst, which is like a National Trust property, but it's it's run by Kew Gardens. Um and it's just i i what they do is they put around these sort of paper lanterns through like I think it's about a mile uh walk through these amazing gardens and these brilliant, beautiful landscapes. But it's all lit up like incredibly with these these paper lanterns And you get like lanterns that you can walk around with as well. And we've been a few times, and it's really magical. So, my kids are so sensory-seeking as well, that to see this really beautiful landscape lit up in really inventive different ways and kind of spotting it, spotting all the different sort of lights and stuff is we really love as a family, like all of us, and we've been a few times But the reason why they're neurodiversity champions is because they have two special sessions. They have a quiet session. And a relaxed session before other people get there. So there are fewer people. I think they turn down the sound a little bit. They do it a bit earlier, so it's not as dark as well. And it it's just yeah, they just really do a great job because you're not jostling with lots and lots of people and it gives them chance to enjoy it and for us to be a little Bit more relaxed as we're going around, so I would give a big shout out to that. If anyone can get over to Wakehurst for that, it is really worth it.

Belle

That sounds absolutely wonderful, Mark.

Mark

As it is with all of the neurodiversity champions, I'll put the link in the show notes.

Belle

Tiny epic wins.

Mark

The next section is the what I have now renamed

SECTION INTRO

It's no longer tiny wins, it's tiny epic wins.

Belle

Tiny epic wins, yay!

Mark

Oh, so tiny in a neurotypical world, but epic in ours. And so, um, my tiny epic win from this This week is that Otto made a salad.

Belle

Made a salad.

Mark

Did he use Jay's knife? No, I'm not letting me anywhere near the actual knives. Dude. Yeah, so Otto is Uh h he's his fine motor skills are really not great. Um, so he can't use cutlery. And and I I try and encourage him to do cooking with uh with with us um and Tam does as well. We try to involve him um and he's you know he was he will always say no. And I know why he says no is because he's got a fear of failure and a fear of not being Able to do it, and even if we ask him in a non-PDA way, he just doesn't pick up the hints that we're dropping. It's like, hey, I'm making piz And I could do it some extra help. You know, he's like, whatever, I'm off. So, so, but he came up to me out of the blue and went, I want to make a salad. And I was just like, fuck. Hold everything.

Belle

Yes, we're gonna make a salad.

Mark

I was yeah, exactly. I dropped everything to help him make this salad because it's so unusual for him to do that. And I also know that when he learns to do something, once he He has that, he wants to do it again, and he's got the confidence. So I dropped everything and I helped him make this salad, and we chose all of the ingredi And I helped him with the peeling the carrots that he found quite hard. And quite a lot of personal danger to myself, I'm holding the tomatoes, he's trying to chop them with a knif 'Cause like working with him, 'cause again I don't want him to fail. Uh and I don't so so I'm he's doing chopping and I'm teaching Him and it was really lovely because I haven't had many of those kind of more hands-on experiences with him. And he was really proud of it. And, like, as Tam is aware of how important this is to him as well. So Tam is immediately like, Oh, let me try it and really bigged it up. And so now he can make a salad.

Belle

And that's amazing.

Mark

We had some people around The other day. And again, because he now knows this, he was like, Oh, can I make a salad again? It's like, Yes, you can, of course you can. So, I mean It's the middle of winter. We don't want salads, but I'm going to be his party dish. It is. I'm not going to say no to that now, am I? So now we're going to try and get him onto more complex Things beef welling.

Belle

Fantastic. Oh, go.

Mark

So, very happy about that.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip?

Mark

Okay, it is my fifth Always my favourite section. It's the what the flip section, where I basically divulge all the stuff that I've been having to subsume over the last few weeks. Is the moments that my children make me go, what? And I don't know if you've had any what the flip moment. At all, Belle?

Belle

No, I'm just trying to think of some. I don't think I have actually, Mark.

Mark

I mean, I've got plenty.

Belle

This time, so you fill in the gaps here.

Mark

Right. So again, on the on the cooking front, Jay was like, Oh, I'm bored. I'm really bored. I was like, Okay, let's make some biscuit And straightway he went, Yes. I was like, Brilliant. Okay, you look up some recipes. He went, No recipes Biscuit roulette. Exactly that, right? He believes that he can just do it, just make it up. And I, I, having tasted some of his chocolate cakes, can assure you he doesn't know how to do it. Because it's like rubber. Okay. And he's got this thing about he refuses to use recipes. So it's like no recipes. And I went, Jay, you need to know the quantities of the ingredients. I've been cooking for years and I still use recipes. And he went, exactly, and your food is disgusting. So we didn't make biscuits in the end.

Belle

You didn't make them. You didn't make biscuits for biscuit roulette.

Mark

No, he refused.

Belle

That sounds like a good Christmas game.

Mark

Yeah, it is like yeah, it's um what one of these biscuits has been made by Jay. Which one? Guess which one? It's the one that bounces when you drop it on the floor. The other what the flip moment I had from nowhere, out of the blue, he just turned to me and went, Daddy, You're the French bulldog of the family because you have a messed up face. That's why you're all what? Oh, man, it's a good job I've stopped caring about that, isn't it?

Belle

Oh, dear I think that's talking about the messed up face situation, I suppose that does prompt one thought that I had that Oscar really struggles when I change my hair

Mark

Oh, really?

Belle

Yeah. So he's introduced me a couple of times over the last few weeks as that woman over there with the horrible hair because I I deigned to go to the hairdressers and have my badly badly grown out roots tended to, and decided that I couldn't be blonde any longer because I simply don't have the time, so I've gone back to my natural

Mark

And he's he's disowned you now.

Belle

Oh, absolutely. He hates it.

Mark

He hates it.

Belle

I went to pick him up from football and he just took took one look at me. He's like, Why have you done that? And uh yeah. And all the other mums just sort of looked at me aghast. I'm like, don't worry, I was fully expecting it.

Mark

Exactly. We're just so used to it now. It just just dif just bounces off, doesn't it? Um, I have one more What the Flip moment Which sort of underpins this, is that he went to a charity shop with Tam again to just to kind of as something to do. He, you know, because you can go to a charity shop and he. Can like root around, he likes knickknacks and like street finds. He loves street finds. Do you know what I mean by that?

Belle

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

You know, when people just leave stuff outside their house, they're getting rid of. He's like, wicked, and he's rooting through all that crap and he'll find something. Something shiny, and it's like a big thing for him, right? So we're in a charity shop, and he's bought, or I wasn't there, he bought a cheese knife. Don't know why. He bought a a silver sea silver plated cheese knife, and um I didn't know he bought this, so I sort of looked in on him and he's In front of the mirror, and he's got this cheese knife, and he's gritting his teeth, and he's swishing it about.

Belle

I'm surprised they let him purchase it.

Mark

Yeah, I mean but the ch cheese knife is not really a d it's just it 'cause it's not sharp and it's sort of like curving. It's got yeah, it it's like a cheddar knif Right, it's not one of the sharp ones, it's one that's like curves up at the end, so it's not you're not going to stab anyone with it, you might sort of prong someone with it, but that's the most that you're going to do. Um, but he's swishing it around with malice in his eyes and they went. Jay, what are you doing? And he went, knife training. This, and he held it up, this is my comfort knife. Comfort knife?

Belle

Okay.

Mark

It's like it said everything I needed him to say. At that point, I was like, okay, okay. As long as it gives you comfort. I mean what can I do? Just gingerly close the door and let him get on with it. So that is it. That's the end of the Christmas the Christmas special of the podcasts.

Belle

Quite fitting you've ended it with a cheese knife. You know, that tends to be usually how Christmas ends.

Mark

Yes, with significantly less comfort. So this is the bit, sorry, the the kind of slightly tedious bit where I bang on about the socials, um, because I want to spread the word uh for the show because I you know, the people that are listening to it and you are all wonderful human beings and I really appreciate the the engagement that you have with it. And I want other people to hear about it. So if you can let people know about it. Just pass it on to people who you think might get something out of it. Please let them know about it. If you want to write to us and tell us something that you would like us to cover on Neuroshambles, any topics or if you've got anything you want to say about the show, then please email hello at NeuroShambles. com And there's another specific request I want to make to anyone who's on Facebook and you're in any Facebook groups that uh for parents of neurodivergent kids Because I am not allowed to post on those groups because it counts as self-promotion, right? And I've had, I've been I've had posts removed pretty straight away by going, look, I've got this podcast, and it is literally for the people in this grou By one of the people in this group. I know that technically it's self-promotion, but I wanted to get the word out. So I'm tired of being sort of banned from those groups for trying to spread the word. So if anyone is on any of these groups. Please, just put a post about New York. Just let people know about it. And then it doesn't count as self promotion and I will feel a bit better about myself because I don't like being rejected So that would be great. That's it. I've done with that now, with the self-promotion stuff. All that remains for me to say is jingle bell. Thank you so much for coming on and talking to me about your Christmas. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas, and it is everything that you hope it will be. I'm sure it will will because you sound fully in control.

Belle

She says, that's the plan.

Mark

Don't forget the stockings is all I'm going to say.

Belle

Oh, Lord, no.

Mark

No, thank you very much for coming on and All that remains for me to say now is to the audience, thank you for listening and have a nice life.