Being the token neurotypical | Kirsty Hockenhull

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Mark

Join me Hello and welcome to episode thirty five of Neuroshambles. Thanks for joining once again, Neuroshamblers and as always for your lovely comments in response to the previous episode. Just a quick public service announcement to let you know that I'm going to be taking a couple of weeks off Neuroshambles while I navigate the choppy waters of the Easter holidays with my lot, but rest assured I will be back with a new episode at the end of April once I've managed to catch my breath a bit. So Just bear with me until then if you can. That'd be great. For now, though, I have got a really fun episode coming up where I'm going to be speaking to a new guest about a topic of the week requested by quite a few people. We'll also be tackling Neurodiversity Champions, Tiny Epic Wins, and the Perennial Classic What the Flip section, so I'll stop the procrastination and we can launch right into it.

SECTION INTRO

Meet the guest

Mark

So this week's guest is someone who was introduced to me by a mutual friend of ours, Angela, who said that they're a regular lister of neuroshambles and they would make an excellent guest. I obviously have full faith in Angela's judgment, so I booked an intro call with them to discuss potential topics that was supposed to last 15 minutes. as with all of my guests. And I think it went well over an hour before we even got onto the topic bit of that call. So I think we're going to have plenty to talk about on this one. As well as being a friend of a friend, she's also in a neuro-shambolic household and a mental health occupational therapist for the NHS. So I am overjoyed to be able to welcome to the show. It's Kirsty Hockenhall. How are you doing? I'm very well. Did you bow then? I'd like to see it bowling. No one can see it. It's all good.

Kirsty

Maybe it's like. I think I've listened to it so much, maybe you're like royalty now. You know, I felt like bad.

Mark

Yeah, hardly. So, obviously, when we launch into any episode of Nourio Shambles, as you know, we need to know a little bit about your Setup. So, what neurodivergencies are you dealing with at your end, Kirsty?

Kirsty

So, it's a neurodiverse, blended household. It's between Um, so I have two children and my husband has two children and my two are a girl who's seventeen and a boy who's nine and my oldest one identifies as autistic, but

?

We didn't really realize that, I think, until a little bit later. And I because she's a little bit older, the school system was a bit different then.

Kirsty

And I think the world was a bit different, and we weren't really picking up on some of those things. I was quite aware from when she was young that there was something that

?

you know, some challenges she was having that didn't seem neurotypical, I guess.

Kirsty

But she never wanted a diagnosis, so we never pursued it. And things seemed to have gone a lot smoothly more smoothly for her.

?

Whereas my son, who's nine, got diagnosed with autism when he was seven.

Kirsty

And that's primarily because he was having s great difficulty at school with reading and writing and understanding kind of social conventions and all of that kind of stuff. He's suspected ADHD, but we haven't gone down that road Yet, and he's currently being assessed for dyslexia. He's got poor working memory, proprioception problems, reading and writing difficulties, really smart, but you know, all of those kinds of things. And then we've got two stepchildren, fifteen and sixteen. The oldest suspects that she has autism, phyllolective mutism as a child, lots of sensory issues, executive function difficulties, really high anxiety. And the youngest

?

probably neurotypical but has is ver pathologically shy um round adults and a bit right okay at home.

Kirsty

But we don't you know, it's a it's a kind of mixed bag.

Mark

It's a giddy blend of of different neurotypes. Diagnosed and undiagnosed.

Kirsty

My husband identifies as ADHD and my ex-husband has identified as autistic for as long as I've known him, but never's. got gone for um a diagnosis and recently found out about P D A and said I think that's the reason our marriage Failed. Oh, really? Well, there's lots of reasons, but he kind of went, I think that's what, yeah, okay.

Mark

Let's just pin it on that and move on, shall we?

Kirsty

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

So, you are, you appear to be drawn to neurodivergent.

Kirsty

like a neurodivergent magnet yeah i think i you know i do but i you know identify as a um Very typical.

Mark

I like the way you said that quietly then. I don't want to jinx it. Yeah, no, similarly, me as well. So which we'll get on. To. So, thank you for introducing me to Yorn, Neuro-Shambolic Household, an extended household, and anyone that comes near you by the sounds of it. We will crack on with the topic of the week because it's one that I've I've been wanting to talk about for quite a while now.

Kirsty

What's the topic of the week?

Mark

So, this week's topic of the week is one that quite a few people have requested recently. When I was doing a talk in Bristol, I had several people come up to me and say, Could you do one about this? I was like, Oh, it's a good job. I've booked it in in the future. Then, because I think a lot of people find themselves in a similar situation to me in their own neuroshambolic families. Namely, that they being non-neurodivergent are considered to be essentially outsiders in their own home. I like to think of it as being a low neurotypical crouton bobbing about in a spicy soup of neurodivergency. And although I consider myself Fortunate not to have to face so many of the challenges that my neuro-exceptional kids face on a daily basis. It is sometimes pretty tricky, I think, to try and bridge the gap in how our different brains work. So I thought I think we should talk about it. I wanted to talk about being the token neurotypical in your household. Uh because I think that is how we both ident I've alluded to this several times in the podcast, but although I consider myself neurotypical, I am fully undiagnosed. So there's no proof of that. Several NeuroShambles guests are convinced that I have some form of neurodivergency because they don't tend to get on well with neurotypicals. That's the only basis I've got. I don't think it's official diagnostic criteria. I told Angela, our mutual friend, that we were going to be recording this together. and what the topic was about being the only neurotypical in your household. And her response was, Ha ha ha ha ha It's so cute that you both think that Winky Face emoji.

Kirsty

Yes, she said a similar thing to me.

Mark

It's safe to say the jury is still out on our neurotypes, but I think either way From my own perspective, I identify as neurotypical because I certainly don't experience the vast majority of challenges that I know my neurodivergent kids and friends do. And I guess it's all relative, isn't it? You know, I think it's safe to say that we're the least neurodivergent in our household.

Kirsty

Yes. Yes. I think that would be, you know, maybe a better.

Mark

We'll use that as our standard. Jumping off point. It's like basically the least drunk person at a party is the one that has to assume responsibility for getting everyone home. That's us. Yeah. And obviously with that comes challenges, I think. It's a blessing and a curse, isn't it? Sometimes, Kirsty.

Kirsty

Yes.

Mark

Um, I'll just make a quick clarification. When I talk about my neuroshambolic family, I'm also including Tam in that because Tam is diagnosed autistic ADHD. Obviously, Tam and I are separated, but we're still part of the same family. Family, if that makes sense. There's constant communication as there is with yours, right? Yeah.

Kirsty

Yeah, it's exactly the same. Me and my ex-husband are really, really good friends, and we co-parent together. He's one of my best friends, actually. You know, it's very positive.

Mark

Yeah, so you were all part of the same family. We're a family. We consider ourselves a bit of a weird one. That's how I feel about it. Not your family, by the way. I'm not judging your family. I'm just saying it's just a bit alternative, you know. So I think, in a way, being the neurotypical. I see my role a little bit as being a translator between the neurotypical world that I inhabit and that basically is the world at large and the neurodivergent world and that that my children, you know, inhabit. And I feel like it's my duty sometimes. or my responsibility to help ease that transition between the two different worlds.

Kirsty

It's difficult, isn't it? Because I think that that one of the things that they both say, you know, quite frequently is is the world is not right. And I kind tend to agree with them a lot of the time. You know, if we have lots of conversations about that, you know, about the fact that when a teacher might bring up that they're not communicating properly or they're they're missing social cues and and they kind of say, well That's because they're not, the other person isn't communicating in a way that I understand.

Mark

Yeah, you know, it's the double empathy problem, right? It's not me that's Messed up. It's that there's a discommunication there's a there's a miscommunication on both sides.

Kirsty

Yeah, yeah. So we talk a lot about that. But yes, I am kind of like an interpreter, I think.

Mark

Yeah, because I guess how aware are they? Because obviously, you know, I am aware. Kind of, you know, sometimes too aware of the unspoken rules of society. So when we're out and about, I am really aware of not getting too near to people and, you know, not swinging off the railings when there's someone standing right there, like all of that. I feel like I need to police that a little bit. And my kids don't really pick that up. But how aware of are your kids about the expectations of the neurotypical world?

Kirsty

I think I'm very a bit like you. I'm very hypervigilant, you know, when it comes and I'm very get embarrassed really easily and I'm a bit ashamed of it. Sometimes in the you know, when you take your kids to the playground, I don't know if this happens to you, you know, you take your kids to the playground and they start interacting with other kids, probably neuro tip, you know, typical kids. And things are fine for a little while and then I'm always hovering, you know, with both of them, you know, but um my oldest was young as well. I'd always be hovering waiting for something to kind of disintegrate and having to step in. You can never relax, can you?

Mark

As a parent of neurodivergent kids in that sort of environment and birthday parties is another one. that kind of thing where you're on edge needing to swoop in, not because you're being a controlling parent, not because you're one of those helicopter parents, it's because you know, like I say, I feel like it's my job to smooth that over sometimes.

Kirsty

Yeah. I mean an example of of my oldest one. She was it was her eighth birthday party and I tried to do a big birthday party, you know, like you think that's what you Supposed to do, and I, you know, made a cake and got balloons and invited about 20 kids around to a small house at the time.

Mark

Which, in retrospect, is a terrible idea. It was.

Kirsty

You didn't know, right? I didn't really know, and I was kind of annoyed that she was like not reacting in the way that I was expecting her to. And she took one friend that she trusted and she locked herself in the bedroom for the entire party. I just kind of thought, okay, well, it's obviously completely overwhelming. I wasn't really thinking of autism at that point. Right, okay. But even from that point, you know, obviously there was something not quite working and they were overwhelmed. So I just kind of went back down. and put some Beyonce on and everybody just started jumping up and down and got ate cake and got on with the party, you know, and that was that. And I just tried to kind of style it out really. You know, it's that those kind of things that, you know, um, started to

Mark

To happen more, I guess. I mean, I think over time I've changed because I think initially when I was parenting my kids, I was very much, well, quite like my dad used to be, a bit of a sergeant major role. you know, I'd like shout and demand neatness and order and I was responsible for their you know appearance in public and their behavior in public and I see it very differently now. No, because they can't change the way they are. And also, the more you start to question this kind of thing, the more you realize Actually, that's not really hurting anyone. It's still a bit boisterous, but actually, you know, I can let that slide. So I'm a lot less like a sergeant major now.

Kirsty

I'm a lot more like a ringmaster. And this is the clown show. Yeah. I mean, I think yeah.

Mark

They're the anti establishment figures who create good natured havoc wherever they go. And I'm just there to all giving them a platform to do it and not trying to rein it in too much.

Kirsty

Yeah, probably what helped me a little bit is I've always been a pretty liberal parent. And I think when both of them were presenting, you know, with these kind of challenges, I think I kind of. Um I think naturally um it it was perhaps a little bit easier, you know, maybe than you're describing, but you c went in with a whole, you know, more traditional parenting kind of thing.

Mark

Yeah, I know this is I'm sort of a bit ashamed of that in a way, but that is how what I thought would happen.

Kirsty

Do you know what I mean?

Mark

Um, and it was only like that because they weren't doing what I wanted them to do. So I was like, Well, if I puff my chest up and I look cross and I shout, then that's what my dad did, and that worked for me. So, you know, and obviously you have to then completely Change the way that you approach that. So now, yeah, like I say, it's just a lot more freeform. And I just let them be themselves to a degree. I'm essentially just the straight man in a comedy troupe.

Kirsty

Do you feel that's made you a better person or a better parent? Do you feel that liberated by that?

Mark

Yeah, I do.

Kirsty

I feel really relieved actually.

Mark

Yeah, because I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to hold water in a sieve. Because that was how it felt, do you know what I mean? Is that I'm trying to control this behavior that isn't, you know, it doesn't need to be squished. You know, that actually it's coming from a different place and they don't have the same understanding of what the societal norms are, so therefore, how can they be expected to live up to? It and I didn't want them to keep failing all the time, so I let it slide. And I'm still, as you were saying, I'm still acutely aware sometimes of feeling a little bit embarrassed by When other people try and shame you, you know, when you can see people rolling their eyes at each other or tutting or muttering under their breath. That is, you know, I'm acutely aware of that.

Kirsty

Which, you know, it yeah, it can be a little bit mortifying at times. Yeah. So with my youngest, it happens a lot in in settings like restaurants.

Mark

Right, okay.

Kirsty

That's my my my kind of the you know, the big word I suppose. Whereas he wants to behave like an adult. He's like a tiny grown-up all the time.

Mark

And so he's does he speak in that way as well?

Kirsty

He does. He calls me mother.

Mark

Oh, I love it. I love it.

Kirsty

Mother. It's always, you know, and it's been like that since we About three years old, he's always, even though he was really speech-delayed, one of the first things he said was, Not mummy, but mother, like a small Victorian.

Mark

If I'm going to speak, it should be proper, yes, it'll be proper.

Kirsty

Um and so he'll often usher waiters over, you know, like he's in control of everything. And then he'll order for it and he's been doing this since he was really young, ordering for himself, you know, very precisely what he wants. And then afterwards, he'll shout across the restaurant, I hope you get a pay rise, or you've done a great job, you know, this kind of thing. And in these moments, I'm kind of going.

Mark

Oh no, that's adorable.

Kirsty

It is adorable, but it's also, I think some people think it's really precocious. And I think so. I have had eye roles, particularly from younger people.

Mark

Oh, really?

Kirsty

Younger waiting staff, you know, bloody old, you know. What a jumped up little shit. And that's my worry is he's not. He's lovely and he's just trying to be a grown-up. He's just so kind of keen to express his, you know, but it comes off as overly confident and a bit precocious sometimes.

Mark

Jay does this sometimes. It's hilarious. What does he do? I've started going to Pizza Express with him.

Kirsty

Oh, this is what I'm... It's Pizza Express!

Mark

They know what they're getting. It seems to be a magnet for neurodivergency, Pizza Express. I don't know, because it's so consistent. So Jay, I actually took him there on Valentine's Day. Not for Valentine's Day, it was just the day that we had time to go. And then I said to the waiter, Have you got can you show me for a joke, because Jay was there, I went, Can you show me your most most romantic table? And Jay looked at me and he kind of started laughing. And then we went to this table. And then, just as the waiter went to turn away, he turned to me and went, Well, that's enough about me, handsome. How's your day?

Kirsty

He sounds brilliant. She was hilarious. Yeah.

Mark

And also, he's like very, again, very overly formal with the waiter. Like the waiter, the sun was in her eyes and he pulled the blinds. And He was just so polite and thankful in a way that he never is at home. Like he was like, Thank you awfully for doing that. It's like, dude, who are you in public? At home, I get nothing, none of this treatment. But but I guess, you know, just to bring it back to the topic, is that as a neurotypical, I am aware of these eye rolls and these tuts and this invisible judgment. In a way that Tam never is, or that Tam might be, but Tam doesn't care. Whereas I actually get affected by it, I don't want that judgment. So I try and navigate around it where I can.

Kirsty

I mean, it's exactly the same with me and my ex-husband. He doesn't see it as a problem. He doesn't get upset by it and also gets irritated at me or you. Used to get irritated with me for getting upset. Yeah, yeah.

Mark

And it's not like the example that you gave is probably not the one that best encapsulates that, just like mine with Jay, but it's more about. being noisy in a library or, you know, like on a bus and swinging around on a bus and sort of being too near to people. All of this kind of stuff, the ADHD stuff is very kind of prevalent there for for my lot. And yeah, and it's some stuff that Tam was totally fine with and just let him let him get on with. And I was like, just gritting my teeth going, I don't want to look. They just nearly knocked a woman over. So I think the thing is As the neurotypical, surrounded by a team of neurodivergence, I feel like I'm on high alert at all times.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

I think. I think that's it. Like I feel like I need to look out for other people's feelings. And also my own kids, because I need to be aware of anything that might trigger them. You know, if there's something that is you know, if I see a bus coming down like a lorry coming down the road that is going to You know, it's going to dysregulate Otto. I will swoop in and cover his ears because he's not really going to be aware of it. He can't really preempt that. And then also trying to stop Jay from just walking off without us knowing where he's gone because he's just in his own world. There's so many things that I feel like I have to be manage, I guess.

Kirsty

I mean, you've got three, you know, three who are all quite close in age, and I think that's quite I feel for you because I've got two, both with their unique difficulties, but there's an eight-year, nine-year gap, one's nearly off. to university, which is I never thought would happen by the way. You're in this state of like high anxiety almost all the time, aren't you? Because you're or hypervigilance.

Mark

Most parents are neurodivergent kids, though. Yeah, I think it's a it you it's so draining, I think.

Kirsty

I mean, I've just got, you know, now one that I'm having to worry about on a mountain about, and that's Very, very tiring. Just, yeah, making sure he doesn't get run over, making sure he doesn't kind of isn't too inappropriate with people. He swears a lot as well.

Mark

Okay, okay.

Kirsty

loves swearing.

Mark

And people judge that so harshly as well, don't they?

Kirsty

People judge it, but his justification is, well, you swear and everyone else swears, so why can't I? And I don't have an answer for him. what are you going to say? Because I told you so? Or because adults don't like it? There isn't really a good reason.

Mark

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I you know, we have a similar thing in our house with with burping.

Kirsty

Right.

Mark

I cannot like India will not listen to me saying, please don't burp, it's horrible. You just burped in my face That's really great. That is quite funny. Well, it is, but I have to try.

Kirsty

Got to train, you know, not outside the house. And I think. That's the thing. Youngest doesn't swear very much outside of the house. He doesn't do it at school and he doesn't do it in front of his grandparents.

Mark

So I think, you know He's aware of context and and appropriateness.

Kirsty

I get quite embarrassed sometimes when we he thinks people aren't listening and he'll Just go fuck it now, you know, and shit, and like, you know, just I don't know, just got certain those two are his particular favourites, and so you know. It's the loudness, I think, and the expressiveness and the unbridled joy of the way of doing it, of getting away with it. Yeah.

Mark

I think one of the most glaring differences between neurotypes in our house are the communication differences.

Kirsty

Yes.

Mark

Because there is obviously my kids are very different in the way in how they Communicate and I am very expressive and I'm very like emotionally open and I want to talk about things. My kids don't really do that. And I've Had to learn not to get offended by bluntness. Yeah. You know, which at first was just like Dude, who are you talking to?

Kirsty

You know, some of the things that Jay says to me are really quite, you know, quite harsh.

Mark

This this time that I recounted on a previous podcast, Jay said something that basically looked inside my very soul and found that one little kernel of self-doubt that I had. And then held it out into the open for all to see, and everyone laughed, right? And it was this: I was driving along, and he was in the car in the back seat, and he was staring out the window, and everyone was quiet for a change. And then he went, Daddy. You used to be a comedian, but now you're just a boring data guy.

Kirsty

It was as low as it gets.

Mark

It was like, you know, I think everyone's got this thing that they hope no one notices or no one calls them out on, right? And that was mine.

Kirsty

And I buried that really deep.

Mark

So he did that and everyone started laughing. And I was like. Like, fuck. I nearly had to pull over, like, just to collect myself, because it was, I was really, you know, but he's not meaning to do that. He didn't say it to be mean. And he's not thinking about the effect that that will have on me. It's just an observation. He's right. Like, he's correct. I think, to be honest, that is probably why I started doing this podcast. I'm not just a boring data guy. I've got a podcast. Yeah, exactly. But it's, you have to develop a really thick skin, I think, around power kids.

Kirsty

I mean my kids will often point out things about me physically as well, like a lot and that's quite difficult and I'm a a much older mum with my youngest and he'll the the thing he says quite frequently and quite openly at school is, Mum, you're twenty years older than all the other mums Because I'm 50 and they're all 30.

Mark

But it's true as well.

Kirsty

So you can't even refute it. No.

Mark

You just have to go. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of people.

Kirsty

Why have you got that weird hair on your chin?

Mark

You know, or why yeah, I get autosis of that stuff. Yeah, daddy's fat.

Kirsty

It's like, oh, dude.

Mark

Come on. I know you're not a virgin, but you know better than that, right? And then he does. He goes, oh, sorry. As if like it only just occurred to him. And I'm sure it has. So you do have to develop this thick skin. But. It is on us to accept it as the neurotypical.

Kirsty

Yes.

Mark

You have to understand where it's coming from. You have to swallow your pride and your ego and just sort of Brush it off, and that's not always easy to do. If you're exhausted and you're tired, and you've been doing everything for them all day, and then something like that comes out, it's like Come on, like really give me phony bone.

Kirsty

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I I mean, I don't know about you, but something I say a lot is Can you just be nice?

Mark

Really? No, I don't say that.

Kirsty

Which I shouldn't do because I should just accept it like you said. But I often, I guess, because there's a bit of comedy in it, you know. I go, please be nice to mummy.

Mark

Come on, I've had a long day. Is it? But look, I think. 'Cause there is a case, I think, for letting them know when they've said something to hurt you. Um but you can't you can't keep doing it every time. So it is just easier to just go, ah, well, this is my life. I am a punching bag.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

A figure of fun. I'll just deal with it and move on. But it's, you know, like I say, it like I think that if any neurotypical kid spoke that way to their neurotypical family, if I spoke to my dad like that, fucking hell, I wouldn't be here. You know, it just wouldn't have happened. And then sometimes you do hear your neurotypical friends talk about, oh, my son was so rude to me today. It's like, oh, what have you got? Really, really? I'll see you that and raise you a big nose.

Kirsty

But you're getting it from all three all the time. And do you think that they kind of because they're quite close in age and do you think that they're 'Cause you're all so close together and they're all in each other's spaces all the time, and they influence each other.

Mark

Yeah, I think they do.

Kirsty

Family way of communicating with you. Yeah, there is.

Mark

And I think l and I am very lighthearted with them so so when they do do that i do you know i like i yeah i make i i make light of it or i pretend to be mock offended

Kirsty

Yeah, exactly.

Mark

But I don't think they they don't I know that it's not something that they mean to be hurtful. Well, I'm just going to assume that.

Kirsty

I totally believe that. It's just a fact factual kind of thing, you know, without these kind of Like this unspoken thing that neurotypicals have where they seem to you know will we understand

Mark

all the nuances and the nonverbals and the you know, we kind of and what's appropriate to say and what's not appropriate and what's not, and the volume and the tone and the you know, all of these things.

Kirsty

That they don't really understand, or they can't see it, or see the point of it, you know. Yeah, just cut to the chase and just say what you what you think, which is maybe a better way to be at it, you know, sometimes I don't know. I don't agree with that.

Mark

I think there's definitely a case for not telling everyone that there's Stupid or fat or ugly, or you know, well, not that. Let's leave some mystique to this.

Kirsty

You know, what I think of you is in some situations, a bit of that is useful, yeah, yeah, cutting through the bullshit.

Mark

Another one I think in terms of communication that's quite an interesting one is special interests. So when our kids talk to us about their special interest or at us about their special interest. Because again, and it's something I covered in a previous episode, you sort of learn that that's just the way that they want to share with you, right? So it's actually You know, to look at the place where that comes from and go, right, I'm just going to strap in and listen to you talk incessantly about Pokemon. And, you know, every now and again ask a follow-up question just to just to keep it going. But we just have to sit and deal with that.

Kirsty

How do you manage that?

Mark

It's usually Jay, to be honest. Otto is much more about just demanding your company and your time and your collaboration. Jay is like, I've just got out of my room and I'm now going to fire this thing at you because I want to share it with you because I've not seen you for a little bit. And typically, I just let him get on with it. But sometimes I go, Do I need to listen to this? And he'll go, No, not really. I just need to get it out. And I quite like that honesty. So it's like, Right, well, I'll keep doing the dinner and you can keep talking.

Kirsty

Yeah, no, that's very similar thing. I mean, so my oldest is is got a you know, a very specific special interest, um, a cartoons, like that's just her entire existence. Is all about cartoons, lives in a cartoon world, and gets hyper-fixated every three or four months on a particular cartoon or a particular cartoon character and will explore it till till it's it's dried up and there's nothing left, basically. And so for those three or four months, all of us live in that world around the dinner table.

Mark

And he's just sharing that with you and talking about it.

Kirsty

Everybody and She's very funny, so sometimes it can be, you know, great fun, but sometimes it's just it's like at least two or three times a day, I have to sit down and listen. For quite a long time, about you know, and I'm sure you won't mind me saying this, but I think in my head, you know, sometimes I just kind of are not faking it because I am listening, but I think, well, this is the interesting thing, isn't it? Should I be honest a bit like you, you're doing, and kind of goes, do I need to listen to this? I just kind of sit there and I kind of go I go, Oh, really? Oh really?

Mark

That's wow, that's amazing.

Kirsty

And I feel really um disingenuous.

Mark

But that's because we're obligated to do that because we identify as neurotypical Because that's what you do in those kind of social conversations. Now, the other way around, if we're talking to our kids about something they're not interested in, do they do the same? No, they fucking no, they just walk off. Just literally, Jay will just walk out of the room, mid-sentence. Like, no, it's just like not even like, I'm not interested. He's just like it's just like the T V's on, he's not interested in the channel, so he'll walk off. Which, you know, for me, who's had a sort of a grounding in stand-up comedy, so is Weirdly hyper-aware of an audience and keeping an audience entertained. He just walks off, like, oh, it's just me and the cat.

Kirsty

Then I'll just carry on being nice to the cat.

Mark

Yeah, exactly. And then he walks off and says, Oh man, I've just absolutely bombed in my own kitchen.

Kirsty

Is there anything that you talk about that he does show interest in, even if it's not? Very, very rarely.

Mark

And it happens sometimes.

Kirsty

You're like, oh my God, I've watched it.

Mark

An episode once I started talking about Donald Trump, and he just started asking me questions about him. And I'm like, sweet. I've got so much to say about him. But no, normally I don't think I don't they never ask a question.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

About like, ask me a question.

Kirsty

I don't know. Do you get that in your house? My oldest doesn't doesn't. My youngest does ask a lot of questions actually.

Mark

Oh, about you and what you do and where you've been go going.

Kirsty

He'll ask me big questions and they're always like moral questions. Like, could you, you know, this is the scenario, you know, and they'll present a scenario like, you know, you have to save either me or my sister. And this, you know, there's a shark or whatever. you know, all of these kind of moral quandaries, you know, he asks me a lot of and I just go...

Mark

But they're not questions about you, about like where you grew up or what your childhood was like, or you know, just like personal questions about that. My kids have no interest.

Kirsty

Occasionally, he asks, what was the best day of your life? He asks the same question over and over again. He gets really stuck into certain things. And so for days on end he might every day he might ask me what was the best day of your life? And I said, Oh, I told you about that yesterday. And I think he's got working memory problems, so I don't know whether he just can't remember or whether he just

Mark

feels good asking it again because he got a good response or I don't know what yeah yeah that's a lot of people a lot like Otto likes to repeat that kind of thing feels good To yes, Otto loves repeating successful conversations.

Kirsty

Oh, didn't we didn't we do well? You know, or did it wasn't?

Mark

Yeah, we did this quiz about uh about Super Smash Bros. Uh, so we're gonna do it again.

Kirsty

Really?

Mark

This is like The fourth time this week.

Kirsty

All of that, I guess what you'd say, all of that is really draining, isn't it?

Mark

For you as a player, you know, and it's again, it's on us to make those compromises to be and to not get. offended by it when when it's not reciprocated. Yeah.

Kirsty

And I think I understand that now. You know, it took me my oldest never really asked me any questions and it was very much all about, you know, whatever hyperfixations they were having.

Mark

Having said that, I've just realized it does go in at some point because Jay understood that I used to be a comedian. There you go. So he just he's going in, he's just storing it for later when he can wound me with it. I think probably the hardest thing for me In our neurosymbolic household, being the little floating neurotypical is the emotional disconnect between me like my emotional needs Are not in any way considered. I have emotional needs for a star, I think. And that's quite hard sometimes, I think. Because and this is not just with the kids, but with Tam, as I've spoken to previously on the on the podcast as well, in that I needed to have my emotions looked at. Like I needed empathy sometimes and I wouldn't very often get uh or don't often get emotional empathy in my household.

Kirsty

Interesting thing about having a relationship with somebody who doesn't validate your emotions. I used to see as possibly somebody who question mark might be a bit narcissistic and is gaslighting me but actually they were neurodivergent And they didn't weren't able to validate my emotions 'cause they didn't understand it.

Mark

Yes, that's the crucial difference, isn't it? It's not that they're they're aware of it and they're deliberately manipulating you to to make you question yourself. It's just like, well, I don't Get that. So, why would you? So, I need to talk about stuff. I don't know if you've noticed. I've made a podcast so I can just do exactly

Kirsty

It's free therapy

Mark

Exactly. It's not free.

Kirsty

It's a lot of time and energy.

Mark

But I need to talk about things that affect me, and I make sense of things by talking them out. Couldn't ever do that in my relationship with Tam, and I can't do that with the kids. Like, they don't have that. So, if they're dysregulated, I want to make it better, right? So I then say, Well, tell me what's wrong. What's going on? And India will just get in this absolute funk and will be selectively mute. So will just growl and won't tell me and I'm trying to sort of give her my phone to type it on and sometimes that works but sometimes she's too far gone and that won't work And similarly, Otto, I presume, has alexithymia, so he can't interpret his own emotions, so can't tell me. He just knows something was wrong.

Kirsty

And like today everyone was all over the place.

Mark

Like, all over the place. I'm fairly sure that it's because the clocks have just gone forward. And so it's it's light outside and they're going to bed and it's light outside and they're just like, what the hell's going on? Time has shifted. The world has changed. I don't know. But they don't know that. And so they can't communicate that. Whereas I'm very emotionally in tune. Like, I know why I'm feeling what I'm feeling, and I can articulate it. So I ha in a household like this, I don't have anything to do with that.

Kirsty

Do you like there's nowhere for that to go? Do you ever just in terms of them being able to identify how they feel, do you ever use the zones of regulation?

Mark

They do that a little bit at school.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

But to be honest, I can see where they are.

Kirsty

In terms of them knowing where they are.

Mark

I don't ask them. Because I don't yeah, I d uh it's not a thing that I really ask. I've got I got some um emotion cards at one point, you know, that you get a flip through the emotions To find the one that describes you, but they have no interest in that at all. It's just like they're not interested whatsoever. Fair enough. So it's me that needs to That, yeah, it's me that needs them to label it. They don't need that, they just need some space, I guess.

Kirsty

Um, I guess the only reason I mentioned it was just because if they had a tool where they could identify, then you can and then you use the same tool to say how you're feeling. Do you know what I mean? Then sometimes that could Be potentially useful, I guess, and to try and bridge the gap.

Mark

No, no, absolutely. And I think you're right. But I also think that I am the encumbrance. I am the problem. Me wanting to talk about it or me wanting to know how they're feeling is the problem. Like, because actually. they will will they'll regulate themselves. I can't solve their problem in that way. And I want to because I want to be a f I want to fix stuff, right? But really, they just need to go and have their own space or regulate themselves in whatever way they know how to do. And it's time is really the only thing, not me going, How you feeling? Point to the card directing you.

Kirsty

What's going on?

Mark

I'm feeling pissed off because you're in my face asking me to point to an emotion card. And that, that.

Kirsty

I find it quite hard sometimes because it's a part of who I am, right? Like I'm an emotion. I need to talk about emotions.

Mark

And it's probably the single biggest thing that led to the breakdown of my marriage was because we had issues and I needed to talk about it, and it was just a wall. And, you know, again, I've talked about it previously. So, you know, I would try and talk things out with Tam and that would dysregulate them because of the alexithymia and like just not really having a label for their own emotions. So that would lead to shutdowns. So then I would feel like I was in the wrong for trying to have the discussion in the first place. So not only am I not getting my emotional needs met, they're now overwhelmed and I'm feeling guilty. And it's a big fucking shit show. So I don't I wonder how many other Neuroshambles listeners who identify as neurotypical in their neuroshambolic households feel that that it's really hard. They have to compromise on not having their emotions factored in.

Kirsty

Yeah. I've noticed a big difference from being a lone parent with or a co-parent on my own with my two children. To being in a new marriage with somebody who also has question mark. Neurodivergent. and learning together as a new blended family about all of the children's indiv you know, and and so we need a dating service for neurotypicals with neurodivergent children who want to be in a blended family.

Mark

But it works with you. It works.

Kirsty

It really it really works. I think that we've, you know learnt together. We've been together s nearly seven years and since the kids were quite little and you know we've we've kind of learnt and realized

Mark

together as in the and he identifies his neurodiversity so is he able to kind of uh to validate your emotions and and to handle that yes because i think with adhd it's a bit

Kirsty

in terms of emotional stuff a little bit perhaps easier in that department, maybe. I might be wrong.

Mark

Yeah, no, no, I think that's I think that's valid

Kirsty

but in with that in isolation, I guess. So I felt very my emotions are very validated in that relationship in a way that they weren't before.

Mark

Which was with the with autism.

Kirsty

Yes. Right.

Mark

Your previous one was autistic. Yeah, so maybe that's it. I don't I I don't know if that's it.

Kirsty

All about finding your neurotype to have a relationship with, isn't it? The right one, the right type.

Mark

That's what I might have. I don't but I don't because obviously Tam masked for fifteen years. So, you know, I thought I'd found one. And then and then we sort of, you know, get into that position where you are almost imperceptibly and unknowingly accommodating their needs by not having those conversations that you want to have because they never go well. So the way you communicate is different and because you have no realistic expectation that they're going to be able to meet your needs, so then that relationship evolves into something essentially dysfunctional, right?

Kirsty

It isn't real.

Mark

Yeah.

Kirsty

You know, they don't feel like they're they're able to be themselves.

Mark

Yeah, there's there's there's a lot going on there. Like, I will do an episode on relationships Some point, so I'm not going to go too much further into this because I think there's a lot more that I want to discuss about relationships and how they affect raising neurodivergent kids and how raising neurodivergent kids affect your relationships. But it's too soon for me to be able to get any real perspective on it at the moment. So, you know, so that is, you know, probably season three, maybe season four. We don't know. After a lot more therapy, let's put it that way.

Kirsty

I mean how do how do you so you not you not didn't get it from your ex-partner and you're not getting that from your children. So I know this probably helps. Do you get it from friends or do you from friends?

Mark

But then you know when I feel like you're whining. You know, it kind of gets to that level as well. Like, oh, just every time I fire, I've just got to get off my chest. You know, so no, I think to a degree.

Kirsty

you just suppress it.

Mark

You know, that you that you just you just damp it down because it's got no home in your house. So you don't you don't express it. And um Yeah, so that's obviously high on my list of criteria for new partners. Emotional intelligence, the ability to not shut me down if I tell you that I'm feeling sad, a bit of back rub. Maybe, you know, make me a cup of tea, something like that, instead of just rolling your eyes and walking out of the room. That'd be nice. So, one of the things that is It is quite interesting. Is feeling like the odd one out in your own home? That sort of underpins all of this. Is that I am aware that I am different, right? It's very clear in our household. I'm often referenced by the kids and by Tam as like, oh, daddy's a bit different. And My neurotype means my suspected neurotype certainly means that I'm the weirdo in our house. And I quite like it. I can't be annoyed by that because they're owning their neurotype and they are emboldened by it and they've got a sense of who they are in this space. And for once, they're in the majority. So I'm fine. I'm fine being the odd one out there.

Kirsty

Do they tell you you're a weirdo?

Mark

Oh, India constantly. And she points stuff out, which I think is perfectly normal. But India thinks I'm really weird because I eat anything. She's like, Daddy will just eat any food. Like, yeah, basically. Yeah. Obviously, there's food I prefer. But if there's food that I'm not that keen on, I'm still going to eat it because I'm not because I'm neurotypical, right? And because I'm hungry. And so I don't get the extreme sensory reaction to non preferred foods that my kids do. So I will just eat it. And India is weirdly fascinated by the fact that I will eat anything. And she points it out all the time. She's like, How can you like all food?

Kirsty

That's just weird. So does she view it as a superpower or as something that she's disgusted by?

Mark

No, she's deeply unnerved by it, I think. Like she's suspicious. Like I've got no standards. Because it's a binary thing for my family. It's either a yes food or an absolutely fucking no food. There's nothing in between. So me just going, Yeah, you know, I don't really like celery, but I won't pick it out of the dish. you know, blows their mind. I'm the weirdo. Um there's a there's a Chinese say which again I've referenced on another episode before, but I think it's very relevant here. It is 99 monkeys without noses laugh at the monkey with a nose. That's very much how I feel in my own house sometimes. I'm like, you know, because. what's normal and what's not in our household. I'm not I'm not normal, and that must be quite I like the fact that that's probably quite empowering for them.

Kirsty

Yeah, that they have this safe space.

Mark

You know, they have this safe space, and they're I'm outnumbered.

Kirsty

My oldest calls me weird all the time, and my family, which you're so weird, you communicate so weirdly. I don't understand it. I just, you know. Oh, you know, she just finds it all a bit unbearable and forced. I think she feels that when we're a family, you know, when I'm with my mum, my dad, and my sister, there's a forcedness to our communication. There's all these kind of pleasantries that we all say to each other and small talk and and she's just sitting there going, What is this bullshit?

Mark

Yeah, yeah, exactly I can now obviously see it from the neurodivergent perspective because, again, we're the interpreter between the two different neurotypes. And so No, I could totally get it now and find, you know, amusement in it.

Kirsty

But I think that's that's the you know, as a thought exercise, to flip it around and just to see it from their perspective, you know, how we are weird. you know yeah you know it's a bit like um my husband was saying today he reads a lot about um anthropology and things like that and you know saying about you know when people from Indigenous tribes experience Western culture, a lot of the reactions is, you're all insane. You're all mentally ill. Like, what is wrong with you? I'm going back To the tribe where we're going to be one of nature, you know, and just hang out and not work, and that must be how it feels.

Mark

You know, I think it's really important for them to be able to express that. Inside their own home because obviously, when they're outside, they're the outsiders, right? They're the odd ones out because the world is geared towards neurotypicals. So, to have this little safe space, and Tam is brilliant at talking about their neurotypes in positive and affirming ways. And that's really helped them to kind of connect with the way that their spiky profiles work. So, yeah, it's really positive.

Kirsty

I sometimes feel a little bit jealous that I'm not part of the gang with my two and their dad because they seem to hang out like a pack of lions psychologically and physically. You know, they just seem to understand each other. And things seem to be smoother over there than they are with me.

Mark

I think probably less so in Milot because they are all so different. The way that Jay presents is completely opposite to the way that Otto presents and India i is uh is her own little ball of fun. But they ha they are in this space now where they are much more comfortable around each other. And they go and play together, and you know, that's really nice. And I think that is part of that sort of bringing everyone together and that shared neurotype that, again, let's just say Tam has engendered with them. And I get involved in it as well. I don't really feel left out. But that's because I involve myself, I guess.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

Get stuck in. If you can't beat them, Kirsty.

Kirsty

I try. But we always end up miscommunicating. That's the biggest.

Mark

Yeah. I think, you know, to to your point, I think it it can sometimes feel a bit lonely not being as understood. Because I sometimes have these moments where I'm like, none of these lot understand how many accommodations I'm making for them. They're never gonna get it, they'll never appreciate it. And that's obviously not why I'm doing this. And it shouldn't be why I'm doing this. But a bit of gratitude every now and then.

Kirsty

We do want that, though, don't we? You know, we want to be thanked.

Mark

Are we rhymed for doing that though?

Kirsty

I want people to appreciate and see what I'm doing, but I think, and that's been almost really good For me, almost like in a kind of Buddhist way, like I've had to go.

Mark

Oh, really? Yeah, you went there. I just went self-pity.

Kirsty

No, I kind of went, you know what? I don't need the why do I look for the thanks?

Mark

Yeah, that's not healthy, is it?

Kirsty

You know, yes, that's how I've turned it around in my head, I think. I've tried to be a bit more like Zen about it, basically.

Mark

Yeah, because largely I don't feel like I need it. But every now and again when it's been a really hard day and you've just like cooked three different versions of the same meal, you know, and yeah, and then they've said it's disgusting because you've used a Like one few. It tastes completely different, even though.

Kirsty

Yeah, exactly.

Mark

It's just like it's a different brand of tomato puree, you know, a tiny facet of the meal, but they're on it, you know, and you're just like. You guys have no fucking idea. Like, you you've got no understanding of the amount of compromises that I make to allow you to be your true authentic selves. And I don't think they ever will because, you know, they're not able to put themselves in my shoes and think, oh, dude, you just spent the last two hours cooking three different meals. whilst playing a game of Uno with Otto, fixing some like a Lego house that India was trying to do and talking and allowing Jay to talk to you incessantly about Pokemon. Right. They don't put themselves they can't put themselves in my shoes and go, Whoa, that's actually you're doing a lot there, big guy.

Kirsty

I mean, I know I do periodically kind of not explode like in a big way, but get I express my frustration about the fact that I've been in the kitchen for an hour and a half cooking this, that, and the other. And I do do it.

Mark

I do go, Yeah, I do I do get frustrated sometimes and say, Look, I'm already doing like but my problem is I exaggerate and exaggeration is not something that will my kids will have any truck with. Because they're like, look, dude, I'm already doing a million things. And then, oh, actually, it's not a million. It's like, oh, God. Because they're so pedantic, right? It's like, oh, I fucked. It. I've lost my point now already because I've tried exaggeration. They call me out on it. I'm in the wrong. And, you know, back to square one. Yeah. And you do, like I say, you just have to swallow it. And just, you know, you don't, the fact you don't get. The gratitude and appreciation that, by the way, we definitely fucking deserve. Let's be clear about this: the amount that we have to kind of go through.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

You know, you just have to deal with it. One of the other things I find frustrating about being a neurotypical in a neurodivergent household, I never get to do things with them that only I want to do. Right. They never just do things because I've made a decision. And I remember being raised by my parents, and we'd all have to do whatever my parents said. Yeah, so we'd be going to visit family, friends we didn't want to visit, but we'd all get in the car, we'd all go, and we put up with it, and then we'd come home. And that is not happening in my house because if my kids don't want to do something. I'm going to know about it, right? And there is no point in me trying to force it because that's going to lead to overwhelm and dysregulation and Just having to then manage my way out of a situation that I should have known better than to put us in in the first place. Which means that I have to go along for the ride a lot. And I don't really go, do you know what I'd really like to do? Let's all go to the beach. Well the public public. That'd be nice.

Kirsty

Or the pub.

Mark

Oh yeah, but that's too stressful for me. You know, I do not need to be bringing my kids to the pub. But other people do. Neurotypicals do. It blows my mind.

Kirsty

They all hang out.

Mark

But they're like, oh, look, they're they're You know, the parents want to go to the pub, so we're going to the pub. The kids do some colouring and play in the garden. Like, I would love to do that, that would be amazing, but I'll never get away with it. So it's this lack of compromise. And, you know, there's there's no expectation for my kids to just suck it up because I'm the adult. Nor should there be. But it would be nice if every now and again you know like they were like, Oh, yeah, we'll do it for you.

Kirsty

Do you have any mutually enjoyable activities?

Mark

Well, that is the thing. Like, I don't like there are loads of things that we do that we all enjoy. So, yeah, I don't want to make it sound like my life is completely miserable drudgery. No. Like, we like playing board games and video games and eating pizza and watching films and camping Like there's there's l and going to the woods. There's lots of things that we can do and do do and I enjoy But you know, there's things like I fancy being spontaneous, right? That would be quite nice. Oh, look, there's a there's a something on. I d I don't I I'm so not used to being spontaneous, I couldn't think of a thing That might be just a spontaneous act.

Kirsty

You've been beaten down. Don't exist anymore. Stop thinking about it.

Mark

Oh, look, the circus is in. I wouldn't have want to go to the circus. See, I can't do it. But, you know, like i if something happened that I wanted to go to like the okay, so in Brighton there's a thing called the greater And there's loads of music and loads of people around. And, like, bar, it'd be great. We could go into town and just listen to some street performers and get some street food and just be around. I can't do that. And that would be nice, but I have to compromise on that. Because, again, I'm not. blaming the kids, but it's just a it's a thing that, as a neurotypical, I have to just not do and accept that that's just not something we can do

Kirsty

Have you noticed at all as they've aged that things have changed? Like from when they were little in terms of being more flexible. More flexible, yeah.

Mark

Otto and India are more flexible. Because Otto, again, his part of Otto's profile is that as long as he's near an adult that he trusts, he'll do pretty much anything. So that's fine. So I could probably do that, do something spontaneous with Otto, but I've got three kids.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

And I'm a solo parent. So I have to get everyone on board in order to do anything. And that's quite a difficult thing to do. So we stay with the tried and trusted stuff. They love swimming, we go swimming. Great. I hate swimming, Kirsty. I can't stand it. I'm so bored. There's so much faff. I can't like just as an act of swimming anyway. But I do it dutifully. You know, every other weekend. I mean, do you find that are there things that you kind of would like to be able to do with your family that you just have to get to?

Kirsty

It's not an us thing. Yeah, I'd like to be able to take them to a music festival. That's one of the things.

Mark

Okay.

Kirsty

I think when because I used to still do go, but loved going to music festivals. It's something I always imagined that I would do. I'd be one of those Twatty mums. There's great mums who are just like pissed on Posecco midway through the middle class twat mums, like pulling your children along in the little thing.

Mark

Yeah, so you've had to let go of that one. I'm not that.

Kirsty

I'm not.

Mark

you know, they've had to let go of that that fantasy.

Kirsty

No, I it it's just not gonna happen. Um, it would be too um stressful for them and for me, I think. Um it's too overwhelming Yeah, something I would have really liked with both of them is to go to gigs, go to music festivals.

Mark

It's football for me as well. I'd like I spent my life growing up around football and I'd like to be able to go and, you know, then go to a football match, a local football match with with my kids, but they're not on board with it, so you know, that's it.

Kirsty

Because if at least one of them is appalled by s the suggestion Yeah. Then I can't do it.

Mark

I can't just go, nope, this is what we're doing. We're doing this. We're going to this museum because it's just not worth it, right?

Kirsty

Have you ever had the opportunity to, with the setup, the co-pairing setup, to spend time individually with each child.

Mark

I'm doing that more now, and that is really awesome.

Kirsty

Yes.

Mark

I'm now going, right, I'm going to grab one child and do something one-on-one. So I took India to The farm the other day, and it was amazing. And me and Jay went and played crazy golf, and I'm going to be taking auto tennis, just me and him, because he's really into that. So, yeah, that's that's really good. But again, it's not what I want to do. I don't really, you know, farms are fine, but that's fucking to know what I mean. It's like, all right, let's get to the pub, dudes.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

Just me and you. I could do that probably with Otto. I could just start racking up the drinks and then just, you know, play some Uno with him for four hours.

Kirsty

If I go to the farm with you, then you have to come to the I don't know, does that ever work?

Mark

That won't ever work, no. PDA, dude. It's a minefield.

Kirsty

I don't have that problem with PDA thing.

Mark

But the thing is, right, about these these compromises Yes, it's frustrating and it's not anything that neurotypicals have to do in neurotypical families. But I've got the capacity to do it.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

You know, I am not overwhelmed by doing things I don't want to do. So obviously, it's on me to make the compromise and make the accommodations 'cause I've got the spoons, you know? I'm not like it's not a great hardship for me. It might be slightly annoying that it's not necessarily my cup of tea, but I can just suck it up, really. It's fine. It's fine. It is some sometimes it does get a bit frustrating.

Kirsty

Well, that's why having an outlet is so vitally important, isn't it? You know, whether it's this or whether it's a friend, or because otherwise I think it You know, this is the with my therapy head on. You know, you internalize it all and it eats you up a bit, you know.

Mark

Yeah.

Kirsty

It comes out sideways and otherwise.

Mark

'Cause I'm now separated from Tam, so I have that time to myself. Yeah. Which is generally spent planning and editing. This podcast, but that's beside the point. So I do have that time to do that on my own, but it's really about like, I'd like to take the kids To this thing, I'd like to take the kids to a theme park. Yes. Not going to happen.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

That would be a really fun thing for me to do with the kids. But what about individually, though?

Kirsty

Would one of them be up?

Mark

Jay wouldn't tolerate the cues. Otto would be too scared by the rides. He's incredibly anxious. And I don't think India would be that on board either. It's not really worth it. But again, it's one of those things that it'd be nice to do, but just going to have to let it slide. I think one of the things I catch myself doing as an alleged neurotypical in a neuro-shambolic household is projecting. neurotypical needs onto my kids. Because I think ev every neurotypical will have the expectation that they're to be honest, every parent will have the expectation that their kids are going to be neurotypical. when you're you know when you're first thinking of raising a family. You just assume, I think. So you start planning it all out. Right, you start thinking about what your kids are going to look like. You do, you can't help it, you know, because you look at what other kids of that age are like, and you'll go, right. So, my kids are going to be into football and ballet, and they'll have loads of friends, and they'll be, you know, going to like adventure playgrounds and having a great fun and loads of play dates and stuff. You map it all out. I have to check myself quite a lot when I apply neurotypical concerns onto my kids that they just don't have. So the best example of this is friends. Right. I want my kids to have lots of friends because I had lots of friends and I think that's what makes you happy in school, right? I'm aware that that is a projection I'm making and that they, you know, Jay in particular doesn't want that many friends. So that's a bit of a weird one to get used to. You have to check yourself Do you find yourself doing that?

Kirsty

I think, yeah, there's a sadness, isn't there? Because history isn't repeating itself, you know, because you things that you make you, you know, have made you happy, you know, you just But yes, both of my children have small friend groups, but very close but small. You know, they only have they both actually have three friends each that they're very close with, but no more than that. everyone else is an acquaintance, you know. Whereas I had lots of friends, you know, um, and still do. And it's a I'm a Extrovert and I like going out, and I, you know, love meeting with people. I feel energized by being around people.

Mark

Yeah, me too.

Kirsty

And they both feel quite overwhelmed by being around.

Mark

lots of people and I feel sad but that's a projection of my but it's a projection absolutely right and and hobbies is another one yeah Like I want my kids to have lots of hobbies and I hear other people going, Oh, they do swimming one morning and fencing another evening and like craft club and whatever

Kirsty

I get quite angry about it sometimes and I have to check myself because I realize that it's a sadness within me about history of eating itself, you know, so I've you know, I I've actually come off Facebook uh relatively recently 'cause it was annoying me so much. You know, people posting pictures of their sporty, successful, really beautiful or handsome children, you know, just really shoving it in your fa you know, I don't know. It's obviously something I need to check. You know, with my s I need to have a little word with myself. I mean, it's a bit wanky, to be a fair.

Mark

Like, any neurotypicals listening, don't do that, 'cause, you know, who are you impressing, really?

Kirsty

I don't know. I mean, I I love the fact that my children are the way they are and I wouldn't have it any other way. I mean, I think they're amazing and thank God for them, you know. But there obviously is something in me

Mark

that's going, oh, you know, I don't I feel like I don't fit in or Yeah, I do feel a bit triggered when people talk about like all of the hobbies that their kids are doing and they moan about it. And it's like I'd love them to be doing that. Like, I'd love my kids to be doing a hobby. But again, that's me playing.

Kirsty

That's your, yeah, right.

Mark

It's me going, I like doing lots of different things without thinking. Lots of different things in different environments with different groups of people is dysregulating to them and therefore is going to trigger their nervous system. They're going to be overwhelmed. It's going to be an absolute shit show for them. So Me sort of going, oh, you should do this, or do you want to try this? And the anxiety kicks in. I can see it in Otto's eyes immediately. His like, anxiety kicks in. He doesn't want to do it.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

And I have to check myself and go, Well, yeah, because there's also that flip side of going, Well, if we just stay at home, right? We just play board games or computer games or play the garden for a little bit. It's a bit lazy, isn't it? You know, people are going to be looking at us going, Well, you're not leaving the house. Yeah, you're judging. Okay, like you're not getting out of the house. But actually. That's not my preference. I'd much rather be able to go to Alton Towers or to do some pedals or whatever it is. But that's not on the card for me. And that's not because of me being a lazy parent. It's because of me being mindful of what their capacity is

Kirsty

Well and how happy they are. I mean it's a wonderful thing when they're truly happy doing what they love doing even though it might not be what you choose to do.

Mark

You know that's the most kind of important thing. But then conversely, by not doing having these hobbies as a neurotypical, I'm reducing my social circle.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

Because I'm not meeting other parents, right? and they're not going on play dates, so I can't go out because they're at someone else's house for the weekend. Like all all of these kind of things that you sort of miss out on. And again as the neurotypical that did that a lot as a kid and got a load out of that, like you say, I feel a little bit sad that they don't want to do that. And that is Again, it's on me, it's rejection. But I feel it.

Kirsty

You know, I have to admit, I feel it. It's my oldest is able to spend endless amounts of time on her own and thoroughly enjoy herself. like absolutely loves her own company, will just draw and listen to music and play guitar and do you know, and just she could be there for a week

Mark

Without even noticing.

Kirsty

And you know, sometimes in the summer, you know, in the holidays, she will do that and I'll let her do that. And she had the best time ever in the same way that I would say if I'd been to a festival or been hanging out with friends. She's so happy. How can you Just because it doesn't fit.

Mark

Yeah, it's interesting in that that they the things that you think are fun are not really what they think are fun. They think is absolute torture. Go to a festival, be like No. So you I f you find that you have to you have to check it check yourself a little bit. If you've ever been a neurotypical in the midst of a neurotypical family It's very enlightening how different it is and how. Have you done that much?

Kirsty

Well, this is, I don't know. I think I'm not sure. It's not advisable.

Mark

It's not advisable, Kirsty, because you look at them, it's like My fucking god, this is how I thought. My life. It was like you're from a magazine or something. I heard this recently that I've got like going to stay with some friends and they've got. two girls, nine and fifteen, and they all sit round for a family meal and I was there and they were chatting and talking about their day and the kids asked the adults questions and like and and had opinions about Politics and I'm just like it was it was quite sad and like for me in a way because I'm like, Oh, this is lovely. I never see this, so I've kind of lowered those expectations. That's not what mealtimes look like in my house. Mealtimes in a house are an absolute fucking shambles, right?

Kirsty

But then, isn't that funny?

Mark

No, it is, it is, but then every if you taste the other side of that, and yeah Oh. Oh, this is what I'm missing out on. And as a neurodivergent in that same situation with neurotyp with the neurotypical family, they wouldn't get that from it. They'd hate the The small talk, and they would hate the sort formality of it and stuff. But for me, it was like, Oh, this is really nice.

Kirsty

Yeah, and that maybe because it's less stressful, I guess.

Mark

It's definitely less stressful, and it just feels more comfortable to me.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

I guess, because I'm not having to but I mean, the fact I'm in someone else's house also makes a difference because I'm not having to like clean up.

Kirsty

Yeah. And making your dinner.

Mark

And police the kids' behavior and all that stuff. But then their kids' behavior did not need policing. They were adorable. Do you remember the program called Wife Swap? They should have it where like a neurotypical gets planted into a neurodivergent family. And then a neurodivergent Gets parachuted into a neurotypical family and just see how they get on. It would be genuinely, I would love to see it. I'm gonna pitch it.

Kirsty

Pitch it. I reckon it'd be that'd be fascinating.

Mark

Because it's not going to go well, is it? Like, I would give the neurotypical like two hours at max. Yeah. until they run out screaming, going, Oh my God and probably similar of the neurodivergence, going, I can't deal with it. It's too quiet. It's too you know, everyone has to sit down for dinner.

Kirsty

I mean, I d I know what you mean, but I do I I like I mean it's funny, it's the one thing we all do every day is we sit down for a meal and I'm quite insistent about the fact that we Do that, even though it's very chaotic. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark

Yeah, we do the same. Yeah, and again, I don't know why, just a thing that has evolved, and we sit down like to start with, and then you know, just

Kirsty

Do you have a circle? I have a circling child. Yes, yes.

Mark

Well, I have at least one. We've got a gorilla gym which has got a swing on it. Do you know the Gorilla Gym? It's amazing. This apparatus attaches to a door frame, and they use it loads. It's amazing. And so Jay very often eats on the gorilla gym. Otto stands on the chair. And India could be anywhere. And that's fine. But every now and again, you get a little taste of Civilization as a neurotypical and go, oh, I wouldn't mind a bit of this every now and again.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

This should be like an outreach program. You know, are you a neurotypical trapped in a neurodivergent family?

Kirsty

We can help you, call, 0800, 555.

Mark

We can home you with some neurotypicals for a weekend. I mean, like, I wouldn't want it all the time. It'd be just like a little holiday.

Kirsty

A break. Respite. Respite care for the rest of the call. Parents of neurodivergent children.

SECTION INTRO

It's not all rubbish.

Mark

If you look at the positives of being the lone neurotypical in a neurodivergent household. Weirdly, I found quite a few. For a start off, I feel genuinely lucky to be in this unique position. Like as a self-identified neurotypical. I can obviously see the struggles that my kids are having, and I understand a whole world that so many neurotypicals don't see. and I have an insight into that world. And I've learned a lot about the challenges that they face and the lack of accommodations made for them. And in doing so, firstly, I can see just how fortunate I am that I don't face the same challenge. Is like, I'm very grateful that I don't get overwhelmed by noise and that I can eat any food, you know, like despite the fact it's weird, apparently. That's the thing that I I appreciate. And you know, like I was in a coffee shop the other day and someone started a blender up from nowhere. And I remember being like a little bit irritated by it. But that was it.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

Right now, if I was one of my kids, there would be like complete dysregulation. There'd be hands over the ears. There'll be literally India would run out of the shop. It would be, you know. And so I feel grateful that I don't have that level of overwhelm. I'm not on that kind of fine trigger. And that's just you know, one example. I guess like look, I'm fine in crowds, for example, and I love being sociable and I never had a problem going to school. So I'm lucky and I wouldn't understand, as most neurotypicals don't understand. I would have no awareness of how lucky I am to not have those challenges. So that's a weirdly privileged position to be in. So, of course. It's only right that I make all of the accommodations that I can for them, knowing that. So I know I've moaned about, oh, it feels a bit lonely.

Kirsty

Well, that's you know, that wouldn't sound like a hippie. That's love, isn't it? You know, that's what love is. You know, we try and make our children's time as enjoyable and easy and seamless as it can be, you know, that's Yeah.

Mark

And knowing how difficult they find things and seeing things from the other perspective as well. It's the least I can do is to make accommodations for them because, you know, they're having to deal with so much more. They've got a much rougher hand To play than I have.

Kirsty

Well, I just think, thank God parenting has evolved in this way. I mean, you know, if your children or my children were born 20 30 years ago, you know, they could have ended up in mental health services in prison, and you know, I mean, because they just would have been shouted down or.

Mark

Yeah.

Kirsty

Locked in a room, or or scolded, or you know, all of these, you know, absolutely. It's a much better time, you know, much better time.

Mark

Yes. So I think, you know, sometimes when I find myself getting frustrated. by being the lone neurotypical, it is helpful to just remind myself to check my neurotypical privilege.

Kirsty

Yes. Yes.

Mark

Check my neurotypical privilege and go, you know what? Suck it up.

Kirsty

Yes, yes.

Mark

Suck it up, big nose.

Kirsty

Yeah. Well, as one big nosed person to another.

Mark

Oh, you get it as well?

Kirsty

Yeah. It's brutal.

Mark

It's fucking brutal. Another positive of this situation is that being a neurotypical, I can advocate for them. I can bridge that gap between them in the neurotypical world. I can be that interpreter. I don't get overwhelmed if I'm in a situation where someone's being an asshole and I need to. you know, to correct them. Or if I'm in front of an authority figure or a professional that I need to kind of step up and advocate for them. with I can speak both neurotypical and neurodivergent. I'm bilingual. Bilingual, yes. So I feel like I'm in a better position to be able to educate people about how best to accommodate them. because I know all the rules them pesky normals have by so I can help to sort of navigate them I guess I can't imagine How hard it is for parents who are neurodivergent themselves. I would think that's probably the majority of parents that have spoken to me on neuroshambles are neurodivergent themselves in those neurodivergent households. That must be so hard. Like, I again, as an alleged neurotypical, I feel very fortunate that I'm not having that because Firstly, you have to interpret a neurotypical situation, work out what's going on, and then that might be overwhelming or unfamiliar to you, and then you have to help your kids. navigate that situation and you have to put them first rather than you. And y again, they're having to suck it up, but what they're having to suck up isn't mild irritation. Complete overwhelm on some occasions, and it's it must be absolutely exhausting. So, again, I feel as a neurotypical in a neurodivergent household, I'm lucky. The final positive, and I told you there was a list of them for me, I genuinely believe that my neurodivergent family have made me a better person. Like without question. I'm more patient as a human. I used to be quite short-tempered before kids. Not fighty, like I was an asshole, but I'd, you know, I'd be impatient with stuff. But I'm less judgmental, and it feels like I've been given this free pass to ignore social rules a little bit because I see that some of them are sort of paper-thin and Don't actually make sense, or nothing actually happens if you don't adhere to them. So I feel like I'm sort of living a little bit on the outside of social conventions, and that's quite It's quite it's liberating, isn't it? You don't feel that sometimes.

Kirsty

Yeah, I do. It's like you're seeing different world, you know, a different way of being, and it's it's liberating, I think, you know.

Mark

I agree. I feel I feel privileged to be able to do that.

SECTION INTRO

Neurodiversity champions!

Mark

Okay, we're going to do some Neurodiversity Champions now. This is the section of the podcast where we look at any people or organizations who are doing amazing things in the world of Championing neurodiversity. Do you have any neurodiversity champions for us, Kirsty?

Kirsty

My first one is our mutual friend.

Mark

Oh, Angela Barnes.

Kirsty

TV's Angela Barnes.

Mark

TV's Angela Barnes.

Kirsty

That's what Cool okay, yeah, um who is one of my best friends, somebody who I deeply love and somebody who really helped me understand how somebody can go misdiagnosed for years, and it helped inform my practice. in recognition mental health. So I've known Angela since she was about fifteen and there were some things that she always found really challenging and for years she was misdiagnosed as having depression or as having a personality disorder and bipolar disorder and got put on loads of different medications and you know, it was just awful sitting, I lived with her for many years, seeing her go through all of this stuff. Finally, to kind of, you know, and me always, you know, I worked in mental health. I was like, none of this fits. This doesn't fit. You haven't got personality disorder. You haven't got any trauma or this is all wrong, you know. And then finally, when she sought out, you know, a psychiatrist, she was a little bit older, we weren't living together anymore and got this diagnosis. I was like, yes, that's what it is And then I think I started looking at my own patients in a slightly different light because of her experience, having seen her go through that. And And gradually now, we are in this small kind of enlightened period in mental health services and things are improving massively where we're starting to realize that neurodivergency is a large Part of people's complex diagnosis.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the great thing about Angela is that she's very vocal about it. And she's on stage, and you know, which is not an easy thing to do. As a comedian. probably less so now, I think, but as a comedian when Angela probably first started talking about it, it was it's a vulnerable situation to put yourself in.

Kirsty

No, and that's the other reason why I just think she's been absolutely brilliant. She's used her position to talk about it in a really entertaining way, which engages people so that they listen, you know, and really kind of understand. you know, a real life perspective. It's so fantastic, really. You know, so incredibly proud of her. And the other one is it's funny because you mentioned the stimming pool. I listened to that.

Mark

Oh, yeah.

Kirsty

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So The Electric Palace Cinema in Hastings is an amazing independent cinema that runs NeuroDiversity Film Nights. And the guy that runs These nights, and he also runs a B-movie fan club, is actually in the stimming pool. He's one of the stimming pools. And the film, I didn't even realize it was in the local magazine. A lot of it was shot in Hastings and made by people in Hastings. So and they actually showed it. They have Neurodiversity Film Festival over the last couple of days and they showed it and and had to be in the middle of the day.

Mark

So if any Neuroshamblers haven't listened to the to the episode that that mentioned the stimming pool, I think it was the last one. The stimming pool is a film that was mentioned in Neurodiversity Champions, which is made by a bunch of autistic directors. And it's fully neurodivergent creatives doing it, and it's a wonderful thing. So that's showing at the electric.

Kirsty

What my shout-out is to the electric. Palace Cinema and Hastings for supporting neurodivergent filmmakers and neurodivergent film nights. And I didn't actually realize that the film had been made. I haven't seen it yet. I'm desperate to see it.

Mark

It's just come out. It came out on the 28th. Awesome.

Kirsty

Nice.

Mark

I've got a new diversity champion, Lucy Bronze. Did you read about Lucy Bronze? England international footballer has "come out" as Autistic ADHD.

Kirsty

Come out of the closet.

Mark

Yeah, basically, as autistic ADHD. So she was diagnosed about four years ago and decided that she wanted to talk about being neurodivergent. And there was an interview with her with Alex Scott on the BBC Sport, which was. Just really insightful, and we've like quite a short one, but covered loads. And she talks about masking and stimming and pattern recognition, and hyper focus and difficulties with eye contact and it was just a she the way she talked about it was super positive and the fact that she talked about it in such a positive way was really refreshing. And she's actually now going to be an under ambassador for the National Autistic Society. As well. So, such a good moral model, basically.

Kirsty

Yeah. When people rise up from those kind of platforms, that's when big change happens because that's such a popular thing, isn't it? Football. You know, so when somebody kind of rises up from those kind of you know, sporting and the things that all, you know, neurotypical people like.

Mark

Yeah. So props to Lucy Bronze there as well.

SECTION INTRO

Tiny Epic wins.

Mark

Okay, we're gonna do some tiny epic wins now. Um, these are moments that in a neurotypical household, a fully neurotypical household, would not be any big deal, but in a neurosymbolic household, a major Wins. Do you have any tiny epic wins for us going?

Kirsty

I do, yes. So on Mother's Day. My youngest that unexpectedly and randomly made me breakfast.

Mark

Amazing. Randomly made you breakfast. How random was the breakfast?

Kirsty

Well, it was a fried egg on one piece of toast and a kind of scrambled egg on the other piece of toast and six pieces of banana down each side of the plate. And it was okay.

Mark

You weren't expecting it.

Kirsty

No, he just knocked on the door and walked in and then brought me a cup of peppermint tea as well. One, I was a bit nervous about what the kitchen was going to look like. It's only nine. and also that he hadn't like severely burned himself because he'd got up early and done it with that and I was still in bed, so he'd kind of walked in with these things, Oh, God But um yeah, that was a real like genuine huge win. And I do have one more actually.

Mark

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Kirsty

My um oldest said to me the other day that I was really patient with my My youngest child, and I've never heard them say that before. Wow, look, I've actually observed that actually observed me and said, God, you're really patient. You've got, yeah. How about you I was just I waited seventeen years for that to be Yeah.

Mark

But that's, isn't that like what we were talking about earlier about? It's like just having an appreciation of the accommodation. So maybe it is possible. Maybe there'll be a moment when they're older to go, actually, you do put a bit of a shift in.

Kirsty

Thank you.

Mark

Yeah, and you never know. Finally, I'll wait for that to emerge from any of my children. I had a bit of a tiny epic win recently in that Jay broke a Lego house that India had spent ages making. Unclear whether it is on purpose, but almost certainly was. I think he was annoyed with her for some reason, so he decided to break it. And India found it and she lost it. She was completely situationally mute and couldn't voice her frustration. So I got her to type it out and she wrote down like, He's broken my Lego house that is the thing I spent the most amount of time on ever So I spoke today about it and I used that, you know, like, you know, India's really upset. That you've done this because, and she's really dysregulated now because that meant a lot to her. So, it would really make things better if you could remember how it was built and put it back together again. And he stopped his video game and he went back and he rebuilt it brick by brick without complaint, without he w uh not even moody about it. He was just kind of humming to himself as he was doing it. And he did that, gave it to India, she reset like immediately Straight away, and then everything was right with the world, and everyone went out of their business. It's like, oh, wow, this was this must be what it's like in a neurotypical house sometimes. Like conflict resolution can actually work. So that was a huge win because that very rarely happens that, you know, that Jay will acknowledge that he's done something wrong and then make amends for it. It's a huge thing. So I was very happy about that.

SECTION INTRO

What the flip.

Mark

Okay, what the flip moments now these Are the moments where your children will say or do something completely mystifying and you just Sort of end up shrugging and walking off. Do you have any what the flip moments for us, Kirsty?

Kirsty

I do. I have a lot of them with my youngest, but quite out of nowhere, about four days ago. Sad. Fuck Donald Trump.

Mark

It's a good start.

Kirsty

Yeah, fuck Donald Trump. And then pause. Christopher Columbus is the worst human of all time. Number two is Hitler. Number three is Donald Trump.

Mark

Christopher Columbus, what, because he discovered America?

Kirsty

Oh, because of all the slavery stuff.

Mark

Oh, okay. It's gone deeper than that.

Kirsty

Yeah. In his mind, Christopher Columbus is the worst human of all time because he is the reason that racism exists.

Mark

It's nice, he's ordered it as well.

Kirsty

Yeah.

Mark

Nice, nice. But that was out of nowhere.

Kirsty

You know, there wasn't any build up to it or or connecting.

Mark

Nice. Fuck Donald Trump. I've got a what the flip moment from Jay where he was I don't believe that he was meaning to be hurtful. I'm not sure. I think it was just an idle observation. But that might not be true. I don't know. Have a listen and see what you think. He said Daddy, why don't you iron your face? It might fix the wrinkles in it. I don't. I mean, do you think you meant that to be a diss? It's unclear. A lot of people.

Kirsty

It would hurt, wouldn't it?

Mark

He'd end up with the worst problem if he can't be an actual practical suggestion. He must know that, right? Yeah, in fact, he was just being a dick, wasn't he? Yeah.

Kirsty

Well, maybe he'll be a stand-up comedian.

Mark

He was funny. The other What the Flip moment from Jay again is more of the just like Just completely baffling. He went, My stomach is an ironclad waffle.

Kirsty

That doesn't even make any sense. Why is it a waffle?

Mark

I understand the ironclad part, but what's I was like, what does that even mean? And he said, I start off with a small stomach, but when I'm hungry, I can fit loads in it. I mean, like, I I get his explanation of how his stomach feels, but how that is translated to being an ironclad waffle is anyone's guess. There's a lot There's a lot of groundwork to do before you get to there.

Kirsty

Maybe did you not mean a waffle maker? Do you know?

Mark

Don't know.

Kirsty

I clearly don't know.

Mark

It's one of those ones, it's like I've asked a follow-up question. Yeah. I'm actually more baffled than I was before. I'm done. No further questions. Let's just go on about our day. Okay, so that is it for this. Episode of Neuroshambles Kirsty. Thank you so much for coming and chatting to me about being the lone neurotypical in a sea of neurodivergency. So, thank you for that. Thank you also to the listeners. As ever, I really appreciate your kind comments and your emails. All of the lovely things you're saying on the socials, and for spreading the word as well. So, if you want to tell more people about Neuroshambles, that would be magical. If you want to put some reviews on your podcast platform of choice, that would also be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, just keep listening and keep enjoying because it's nice to know that people are out there consuming this nonsense. If you want to catch up with us on the socials, we're on Facebook and Threads and Instagram and TikTok as well. So find us there. But all that remains for me to say now is have a nice life.